Richard Lloyd Jones: Their constitution stands as a model of what a nation should strive to be. Their economy dominates the economic agenda around the world. Their cultural output is vastly influential, whether you're watching Baywatch reruns from a hut in Burkina Faso or subscribing to a new season at The Met. America, what's gone so wrong? I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and today I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, a critique of America.
Well, maybe I can cut off the groans or even outright indignation indignation of those who repel from more America-bashing by stating our intent right off the bat. To help. Like my guest today, I too have a great admiration for the principles of America laid down by their founding fathers, who were influenced directly by the ideals of French Illuminism, by the way. So it's important to say these ideals are not really just American.
They're universal. That's what made Martin Luther King so powerful as an orator. He was speaking a universal truth, one that's always been true, is true today, and always will be true. But I think what makes America special is that they came closest to realizing this. Oh, I'm not blind to the incompleteness of their putting into practice their own Constitution, particularly in their treatment of African Americans, but that was some potent society they created nonetheless, back a ways.
Well, today, it's nothing like it was. Those transcendent words in that glorious document are now dusted off and used cynically by aggressive, arrogant, paranoid politicians to inspire Americans to all sorts of nefarious ends. Not quite what the Founding Fathers had in mind. But our purpose today is to try to analyze what's gone wrong through our psychological lens, to try to help Americans understand where things have gone off the rails, for gone off the rails they certainly have.
Gilbert Gambucci is a proud American in the sense of loving the foundational beliefs of the country. He's also lived outside the United States for 22 years, giving him an objective perspective on his own country. Gilbert, in Dr. Keppe's book, Decay of the American People and of the United States, he says, referring to the lack of consciousness Americans have about what's going on in their country, He says, how do we show a blind person what he's never wanted to see?
That's a good point. Let's start there. Yes, Keppe,
Gilbert Gambucci: he wanted to help us with this, to see what we don't want to see. So, Rich, I would like to explain what is a pact, psychological pact. For example, when I was a kid living in a small town in Pennsylvania, I remember that we had a drug dealer in our town. There was a guy there.
He lived in his home with his parents and everybody in the town knew that he dealt drugs of various types. They would go there to his home or he would meet them in different places and everybody knew that he was a drug dealer except for his parents who lived in the same house as he. So how can we explain this? This is called a psychological pact when we simply make every effort possible not to perceive what we don't want to perceive.
Richard: Are you suggesting that his parents had the same problem as him? And how would you define that a little more clearly?
Gilbert: They may have had some type of corruption that is similar psychologically, which could manifest in a different way. And so one doesn't want to see the other's problem because you don't want to see it in yourself. For example, if I'm a lazy guy and you're a lazy guy.
And so, ah, you remember last year you built that fence in the backyard. You're a hard worker, you know. So you don't want to see the problem that you have inside yourself. And so this is called a pact. It's an unspoken, unwritten agreement, pathological agreement that we make with another.
Richard: Okay, so we have these pacts, and we can see these pacts in families.
We can see them in relationships. We can see all sorts of areas where this shows up. I'm assuming then that this also has an application in a social system where we could, a group of people could have a pact with another group of people, not to say, not to speak. How do you see that as it relates to the political structure of the United States?
Exactly, Rich,
Gilbert: because people outside of our country, and I've been living in many different countries outside of the United States the past 22 years. And I can verify that the perspective that other countries have on our nation is not the same that we have inside the United States. It's quite different. It's no longer like it was during the time of Kennedy or during the time of early Hollywood when people were enchanted with the American artists, you know.
Nowadays, it's quite different. So, for example, what they see of the United States is that we go and we destroy entire nations for very dubious reasons. And so what is this? Americans, American people, we have an idea that, oh, this power structure that do these things, that's something else. That's not us. But it is us. We make a pact with these people.
It's an unspoken agreement that we have with them to, yes, go and plunder another nation and thinking that we'll receive benefits from that.
Richard: I was watching a World Series game recently, and the announcers were making comments about the American servicemen and women all over the world who were watching the game. And one of the announcers, Rick Sutcliffe, I think, said, Our heartfelt thanks go out to all of you for protecting our freedom.
First of all, how is creating a war in Afghanistan and Iraq protecting freedom? Because these wars are not about freedom at all, or even terrorism, but much more mundane things like oil and supporting the military-industrial complex. This is an enormous myth that the American people live under, that the military is protecting freedom. Is this a pact? Is this part of this idea of the pact that you're talking about?
Yes,
Gilbert: that's impossible, Rich, because wars don't create freedom. Wars create enslavement of a nation. It destroys a nation, not only economically, but even psychologically. Not just the nation that's being fought, but the nation that's fighting the war. The nation who's waging the war is going down, losing the ideals. You know, in the past, the United States had many, many ideals and altruistic philosophy of life that we don't have anymore.
And so, for example, freedom, we are not free to do what is evil. If you do what is evil, then you're enslaved to that evil. You know, there's a problem here with defining what is freedom. You know, are we free to exploit people? Are we free to destroy a nation? This is not freedom. We are free only to do what is good.
If you're doing what is good, then you are free. If we are doing something that is beautiful, that is truthful. Otherwise, we are putting ourselves more and more deeply into what is enslavement, actually. And we allow this power structure to do as they please. And we think that we're not linked to them, but we are. If we choose to omit, to not deal with what they are doing, then we are in agreement with them.
This is what we call this psychological pact. Where does
Richard: this idea come from, that these wars are about protecting freedom? That's the whole thing that happened after 9-11 was that. One of the first things that Bush uttered when he finally spoke about that terrible event, he said, freedom has been attacked today. This is the myth that's perpetrated, And then I think it's used very cynically by the people in power to get the American people in support of something that's not about freedom at all.
But why do the American people believe so strongly that they're actually protecting freedom with these kinds of military actions?
Gilbert: Rich, it's because we're afraid to see that we've lost our freedom as a nation, as people. We've lost it. We've made a pact with what we call this hidden power group. Now this unofficial economically powerful people we've made a pact with them and we're suffering for it.
And the amazing thing is that and other people, people from other nations, they look at this and they say how is it possible that american people don't perceive what's going on within their own nation. That we ourselves are being attacked by these same, the same powerful group that is attacking other countries as well. You know, we choose not to see it. We don't want to deal with it.
We want to pretend that we're still free. And you know, it was our Thomas Jefferson himself who said, if you want to be ignorant and free, you want what never was and never will be.
Richard: Keppe talks a lot about this in a book called Origin of Illness. Where he talks about when an individual or a country has a lot of problems related to envy or arrogance or whatever problems that a person might have. And they're very censored about those problems.
The very next step is to project that the problem is outside the. What we see in the american culture is a tremendous amount of censorship ship. About the problems that exist there. And so there's a tremendous projection outward immediately that the problem is in terrorism, the problem is in drugs, the problem's in prostitution, the problem's in illegal immigration. All of these projections outside.
So we have a war on drugs, a war on crime, a war on terror, a war on everything on the outside. Can you talk a little bit about that? I think that's one of the really core things where Keppe's work might help us to understand a bit better. Yes, and thinking that
Gilbert: we're so, well, as we have been always considered the number one nation, we have this idea that we need to be great, we need to be perfect or something.
And so we no longer have any tolerance to see the very real problems that we have, actually, to admit them so that we can deal with them. You know, there's a very simple principle that you cannot solve a problem of which you are unaware. You know you have to accept and perceive the problem and then you can deal with it. If you don't see the problem then does it exist.
You know of course it exists. So people who don't want to see the problem it's because they want it to continue. Can
Richard: you talk a little bit about how this, how you see this censorship in the United States. How do you see this happening in the american people, in the American media and American politicians? You know, for example,
Gilbert: in the past, in the early Hollywood, for example, the whole world was receiving hope from the United States because of our artists, not because of any sort of money question.
People really admired Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, Marilyn Monroe, and the work of Judy Garland and Gene Kelly. They were giving everybody a hope that it's possible to live a better life, especially in the 20th century, which was just full of wars and even world wars, which we had never seen before. And so this hope, people were just waiting for the next American film to be released because there was a philosophy of life that was, well, let's live a better life.
As Charlie Chaplin put it, life should be a beautiful adventure. And so the United States was emanating this possibility, which was coming from who? Coming from our artists, not from economic power. Then afterwards, the film industry took a turn because the emphasis changed from making works of art to making money. And then it gradually began to go into a decadence. And nowadays, those who are in power, they use this previous appeal that Americans had to the world, they use this in order to manipulate people.
Richard: Suggesting that it's continuing when in fact it's not. This is the
Gilbert: censorship, isn't it? Exactly, Rich. You know, for example, well, if Americans go somewhere to go there, it's because they want to help. But they have this philosophy of life that we need to have a beautiful life. But it's not this. These powerful people are very nasty, very sick individuals.
Richard: Yeah, they've usurped the beautiful values that came out of this period of Hollywood, this period of American history, helping people, of doing good, of making people happy.
They take that as if that's true today. And then the American people, for some reason, they have this idea that this is still true and it's been lost a long time ago. Keppe went there in the 80s. You were there with him, actually, many years ago, along with Cláudia Pacheco and a number of other people, mainly from Brazil, but other parts of the world as well.
And he noticed right away the decadence that was occurring in all areas. He noticed it like instantly within the first few months of being there in the economy and business and industry and agriculture and productivity and youth, politics, religion, aesthetics, everything. He wrote about this extensively, started a TV show, a campaign to wake up Americans called Stop the Decay of the United States.
In my mind, Keppe is a great patriot of the United States, really trying to represent those true values that existed that you're just talking about from old Hollywood and right up to maybe Kennedy, Martin Luther King.
Gilbert: Yes, no, he, until today, he still very much admires these ideals, of
Richard: course. Well, as we all do, I think, Gilbert, you know, we've come to associate America with us in a cynical way because of today's actions.
But we must remember that there was a great period of tremendous development, not without its problems, but there were beautiful things there. And Keppe was persecuted totally by the power structures there, not by the people of the United States who accepted his work a lot. And Keppe wrote in his book, The Decay of the American People and of the United States. He said, anyone who was born here or who's lived here for several years is so involved with the American mentality that at first he will find it difficult to perceive the complete decadence in this country.
What are the American people not seeing about
Gilbert: the United States? Yes, just imagine, you know, in the early 50s when Keppe visited the United States for the first time, he saw these ideals in action, in everyday life. You know, for example, waiters who really wanted to serve you, who wanted to do their work well, these type of work ethics, wanting to help the other person, wanted to service the other person.
And later, when he returned in the 80s, he became alarmed that these ideals don't exist anymore. And so he wrote a book called The Decay of the American People in order to show that, wait a minute, look, we're losing something that is very precious, you know, and to give consciousness of this. But afterwards, he perceived that there's a root cause to this, that there's a power structure entrenched in the United States that is provoking this type of decadence.
And so then, immediately afterwards, he wrote Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power. This book is the first study of the psychopathology of people in power. And until today, it is the best one. And so the problem is that we make a pact with this pathology that powerful people have. And you know, Rich, if we just perceive what that is, if we can perceive that pact, you can resolve it.
It's no big deal. But the question is that Americans, we refuse to perceive that we are in pact with an economic power that is absolutely mentally deranged. What is
Richard: this pact? How does this manifest? Because I think, although you and I understand very well what a psychological pact, what is this? How does it manifest? How do you see this between the American people and the power structures there?
So this question of the
Gilbert: parents of a drug dealer saying, oh, no, my boy's a good boy. You know, they don't see the evil that he does. You know we want to think that the rockefellers and the oppenheimers and the morgans, these people who have band together as an economic power, we even admire them. You know they don't make the money that they make because they have good work ethics.
They exploit, they sabotage, they do whatever they need to do to take the wealth from other people. And you know there's a certain amount of wealth in the world. And if a few people are taking all of it, that leaves the rest without. Well, this is incredible. We even admire the very people who are causing most of the problems that we have in the world today.
Why? Because of this psychological pact. We don't want to see our own problems, our own evil, so we don't see theirs. In fact, we support them. This is fundamental to perceive this. And Americans have a problem with dealing with their psychological life, with feeling what they are inside. Because if we make contact with that, it's different from the mask that we have.
Richard: Gilbert, there's two factors that I see very strongly in this kind of idea. One is this idea, this saying that you hear Americans say all the time, which is America, right or wrong. And also this idea that we have to have respect for the president no matter what he does. And you see this very much now in the question of the military out there in Iraq.
Many people are starting to question this, that this is the wrong place for our troops to be. Young people are dying for no reason. We're not fighting terrorists there. There's all sorts of innocent people dying. All these questions that are coming up. And then people will say, but look, we have to support the troops. If we start to question, then we're not going to be supporting them who are there.
And so there's this unwillingness to see the problem. Once you're committed, you have to go all the way. But what about questioning the thing? What's wrong with that? That's like America can be wrong. You can't just say America right or wrong. That's an incorrect way of thinking. Yes, Rich,
Gilbert: good point. You know, this thing of America right or wrong. This is not American.
This doesn't come from our founding principles in the United States. This comes from this hidden power group. They put this idea into the civilization because they own the media, they own the film industry nowadays. So they pass this idea as though it's something American. But it's not. For example, because we have the idea, ah, well, we need to be unified. We always have to be unified.
So we have to be, we have to get behind our president. No matter what he does. But this is not American. Take a look at one of our greatest Americans said, Abraham Lincoln. If a man is right, then stand by him. If he goes wrong, then part with him. So what is our allegiance? Our allegiance is to the truth. It's not to America, right or wrong.
It's to the right. We pledge allegiance to the right. And if a man is wrong, turn your back on him.
Richard: This belief of America right or wrong, Gilbert, comes from the idea, the philosophy, that America's always right. Because it has this constitution, these values. But we have pathology. Human beings have pathology. We have bad intentions. And we've explored this many times in the show.
And people in power have bad intentions sometimes, too. We cannot just go right or wrong. Bush was even using this at the very beginning to say, well, if you're not with us, then you're a terrorist. Completely killing dissent within his own country. And that's one of the most important things that you need to have is this sense of questioning, are we doing the right thing?
If you don't have that, you have this enormous pact then with whatever the powerful people want to do. As long as I have gasoline to put in my car, as long as I can pay my mortgage, then don't bother me with these bigger questions. Yes, exactly,
Gilbert: Rich. In fact, our nation was even torn apart on this principle, on this idea, because during the time of slavery, of Lincoln's time, it wasn't a question of, well, America right or wrong.
The question was, well, what is the right thing to do here? You know, slavery is not something ethical. It's something sick. So the nation was torn apart because of this. So we cannot, it's not in our heritage to make a pact with what is evil, with what is sick. It's in our heritage to separate from this. You know, for example, Kennedy is very criticized because of his personal life, but this is to deviate from the things that he was doing for the American people and which the entire world was admiring.
Because he was going against this hidden power group that keep themselves hidden because in the basis of the things they're cowards. They have economic power, but they're cowards, so they keep themselves as hidden as possible. But, for example, did you know that Kennedy was in the process of making it possible to print United States notes, non-interest-bearing, instead of the Federal Reserve bills, which are owned by private bankers?
Also, Kennedy said, a free society is a critical society. So I criticize what's happening in the United States because it's not American. Another idea of Kennedy is that there is no place in democratic life for institutions which benefit the few while denying the need of the many. And in fact, he was working on legislation to how to control, let's say, the writ of multinational corporations because he perceived that they were becoming more powerful than the government itself.
This is very dangerous. Kennedy perceived, for example, that the CIA was out of his control. Somebody else is running this organization. And so he had issued a presidential order to the CIA, giving them 30 days to televise an apology before the American people for its heavy involvement in international drug trafficking. And so, as you can see, an American posture is to deal with the things in our nation that is wrong, that is corrupt, that is against our ideals, the American altruistic philosophy of life.
We need to confront this. And first, we need to stop making a pact with it. This is fundamental. Then we'll know how to deal with it.
Richard: Gilbert, let me quote directly from Keppe's book as a way to end our podcast today, the decay of the American people and of the United States. Keppe says here, right at the beginning, quote, Perhaps there is still time to save the country.
This work will signal either the beginning of America's recovery or, if it's not accepted, its last gasp. The good patriotic people and those who love truth will welcome this book with open arms, for these are the ones who realize what a critical situation America is in, just as they have suspected. They also know that it is possible to save their country through effort and dedication.
Ill-intentioned individuals, however, whose only wish is to take advantage of any situation, will detest the consciousness that I bring them. Please join us, you good-intentioned people, and work for the United States, for by so doing, you'll be helping yourself and all of humanity. End of quote. Much for us all to think about. For who lives in a country that's living up to these universal ideals?
And to start living them, we need to first be conscious of our betrayal of them. That's the whole point of Norberto Keppe's work. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. You can contact me at rich at richjonesvoice.com. Talk to you next week.
