Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and welcome to another edition of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. It was Thomas Paine who stated so poetically back in the 18th century that these are times that try men's souls. He could well, of course, have been speaking about today, in which case he'd have had to say men's and women's souls, but we take his point. You'd have to be in a coma not to see the grave situation we're putting ourselves in here in the early 21st century.
Let's be frank about that. It's no sense just spouting fridge-magnet homilies of letting smiles be our umbrellas in times like these. The Chinese call a crisis an opportunity riding a dangerous wind, and it behooves us to pay attention to the wind. Where is it blowing from? From the deserts of the Middle East? From the violent reactions of Mother Nature? From the skyrocketing birth rates and dwindling resources?
Or from man's and woman's soul? I think we could make an argument for the latter. Our greatest enemy is within, and inside is what we don't understand all that well. Let's look at aggression and war today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are proudly broadcasting to you on the Positive World Radio Network, which is bringing together a very fine collection of radio programs these days.
I encourage you to check out everything going on there at pwrnradio.com. I think you'll like it a lot. We, of course, are coming to you from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil, where we delve deeply into the human soul every week.
Well, another war, sorry, kinetic military action is underway in the Arab world, and we'll have a lot to say about that a little later.
But I want to address first one of the principal misperceptions about what is going on. Many people are considering these turmoils all around us as signs that we're evolving to a new level of consciousness, that we're somehow shedding our collective skin and donning a new and higher vibratory body. Like this is some natural phase of evolution we're moving through. From my understanding, this is not what's happening at all.
It's very dangerous to see our myriad and serious, life-threatening situation as a natural phase in any way. The crisis in energy and conflict resolution and the rise of terrorism in the East and, principally, in the West, these are humanly caused, and not caused by our not knowing better because we haven't evolved sufficiently, but more seriously because we, unconsciously, take pleasure in going against what we know is correct.
We'll deal with the false ideas coming from the misunderstood metaphysics being spread through quantum physics and the secret first, before we go to a consideration of the psychopathologic and sociopathologic intentions behind war. The last time my friend and fellow broadcaster Susan Berkley was here, she sat down with metaphysics researcher Cesar Soós to talk about the misunderstandings underlying the New Age and quantum physics thought, especially as portrayed in The Secret.
That, first, before we enter our discussion about war.
Susan Berkley: What a lot of people don't realize is that The Secret is a marketing vehicle. I know this because I'm friends with several of the teachers that were on The Secret. These guys did this project in order to sell their books and their courses. You told me the other day that there's no such thing in metaphysics as the law of attraction.
Talk a little bit about that. If there's no law of attraction, what is there then?
Cesar Soós: Well, this law of attraction is also a consequence of this question matter-energy equivalence. Forces of nature to traditional physics, they are connected to matter. So the law of attraction comes from the thought that you have a field around you. A matter has a field around it, a gravitational field.
So electrical charges, they also have electrical field around them, which tends to attract things to it. And based on this thought, human beings think that they are their own gods. Because this is a very sick idea that we are able to create our own reality, is the idea of thinking that you are alone in the universe and you can think everything you want without suffering any consequences by that.
And so law of attraction comes from this fact that you can think. You attract things to yourself. Your mind attracts, your body, your person can attract things. Like if you were a god. But as psychopathology knows very well, a person who thinks he is the source of knowledge, a person who thinks he knows more than everybody else, a person who thinks that the
Susan: world revolves
Cesar: around him, this is a sick person.
This is the first sign of sickness, mental sickness. And so this secret, this law of attraction, encourages people to be more and more egocentric, centered in themselves. And the real law of reality is not that. Look, Susan, we are living, like if I can make a comparison, we are living inside a big cosmic internet. But this cosmic internet is not something that we create.
It's something that is already created. We just fit into it. So if we want to profit from this internet, cosmic internet, we have to do our part. We have to give our share to it. So it's very much different than what the law of attraction asserts. You cannot be a person that wants, wants, wants indefinitely, limitless, want, and you trigger the forces of the universe to bring the things you want.
It's not like that. You must do your part. You must discover what you are in essence. So if you make your part in this universe, then you will be yourself. You
Susan: know, Stephanie Whitaker of the Montreal Gazette notes that proponents talk about a universal intelligence that responds to our desires and believes that the film The Secret encourages the viewer to see the universe as a, quote, catalog that we can flip through and shop.
And you're saying that this is very bad for our psyche, right? Exactly. Because it enhances our egocentrism. Okay, so we didn't
Cesar: create the universe. The universe existed prior to us. We're parts of it.
Susan: How then, the question remains, can we have a better life?
Cesar: Well, Susan, the true law of reality is the law of resonance. And this physics has much to teach to us.
Because resonance implies a source of energy and an object to resonate with it, with this source. Human beings, they are these objects, and we resonate with this universe, we resonate with God. And God is the source of this energy. And if we want to get what is good for us, if we want to be happy, we must resonate in accordance to this source.
So everything that was created by this source, by God, let's say, has its own vibration. It has its own being. And so we must resonate, we must vibrate in accordance to this vibratory pattern. And how do we do that? You must know your essence. And this, Dr. Keppe's work on metaphysics shows very clear what is our essence. For example, I'll give you this example.
In philosophy, it's very much important to know what is the essence of things. Today we think that our essence is the will. So if you don't exert your will, you get sick. So the idea today is, okay, I must exert my will if I want to be happy, to be myself. So to be myself is to want, to want things for me.
William of Ockham was the philosopher who thought that will was the essence of the human being. And by saying that, he gave free reign for us to think that we can want everything we want, that we will not suffer from our wanting. That's why today in our society we leave our will, our desires. We are very wishful. And we're voracious. Voracious, yes.
We are completely out of our essence. But what Dr. Keppe's metaphysics says is that our essence is not the will. Our essence is goodness, beauty, and truth. Based on this principle, Susan, for you to be happy, you must exert goodness, and you must exert beauty, and you must exert truth. And this is what we have forgotten lately. So this is the main problem of the human being today.
He's not putting his essence into action. We are deviating more and more from our essence and this is what what Dr Capi says all the time. The essence of the person you show in action not in thoughts or feelings because you may say okay I love humanity. Oh, I want the best for humanity. But if you do not put anything into action to show that, you are preventing yourself to leave your being.
So you start to get sick. This unconsciously, we get more sicker and sicker. Do
Susan: you want to talk at all about that we are naturally in resonance, but because of our psychopathology, we get out of resonance?
Cesar: We can make a comparison with a radio and a station. When you try to tune with a station, you are entering in resonance with the station.
The radio has an oscillatory circuit inside that enters in resonance with the station and then you hear the music. So human beings are exactly like a radio in relation to this source of energy, in relation to the station, which is God. And if you don't tune properly, if you don't do good things, then you are out of tune in relation to this station.
Then you stop receiving this energy for your life. And this is what is sickness. You are not in tune with this source, with God.
Susan: Just to kind of summarize, you're telling us that it's not about the law of attraction. And in fact, there is no law of attraction in physics? No,
Cesar: there is no law of attraction in metaphysics. So
Susan: this is
Cesar: something that was invented by marketers.
It was invented by what I know, yes. You know what I feel, Susan? Marketers, they are using this paradigm of physics today because physics knows there are many, let's say, spiritual phenomena going on. Many energetic phenomena they cannot explain with the basis they have. So we are in a turning point. And many marketers, they are profiting from this moment in scientific history to take advantage of that, to push people to believe that their ideas are scientific, but they are not.
Susan: Exactly. And because, unfortunately, people don't think deeply enough and they don't do the research and they don't look back and they don't have the context, nor do they
Cesar: have the time to really study and understand this stuff. The law of attraction says that whatever you wish, whatever you think about, you draw to you. What is missing in this movie is the consideration of how this applies to the people in Africa, for instance.
How can we say that they are attracting to them this tremendous hunger and disease and misery? Do you see that the so-called law of attraction doesn't apply here in this case? And that's why the people in the movie focus only on the individual manifestations of this law. A better job, better relationships, a bigger house. It's very superficial. But, you know, our whole human society is responsible for the inequity in this world.
And not only the individuals who live in an afflicted area. We have all helped to create a very unjust world full of exploitation, of those who are weaker, full of hypocrisy. And lack of opportunity in the first world, there is quite simply more possibility than in, say, Somalia. And that's not to the credit of the first worlders or the fault of the Somalians, you see.
So this is something that falls outside the law of attraction. And that's why no one in that movie talks for one second about deeply desiring world peace or social justice.
Susan: Now, isn't there something also, though, about that, this desire that you can be a god and control life and get whatever you want? Doesn't this resonate with the pathology inside each of us?
Cesar: Let's say like this, Susan, you have a specific vibration, the vibration of your being, but your pathology, your will, let's say, works in a sense of diminishing this vibration. The more pathology you have, the less vibration you have. If your vibration is deprived, is diminished, then you will resonate less and less with the source. It's like taking a radio more and more out of tune, so you begin, the music begins to fade more and more and more and more, and this is pathology in human beings.
The more pathology we cultivate, the less we hear of the celestial music. And even Christ said that the secret, the real secret for you to be happy is to serve, not to be served. And the consequences of wanting, wanting and wanting is to want the universe to serve you and not you to serve the universe. So in this sense, you see, you are completely against what Christ said.
If you remember the words of John Kennedy, he said, it's time for the American citizens to think about what they can do for America, not what America can do for them, right? Ask not what your
Susan: country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. This
Cesar: is exactly, we
Susan: can put
Cesar: this phrase for the universe now.
Susan: Ask not what the universe can do for you,
Cesar: Ask what you can do for the universe.
Richard: Sounds like a nice motto. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
We are back in just a moment. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're on the Positive World Radio Network. My name is Richard Lloyd Jones. Be sure to check out our website, okay?
And our email, joneshealing at gmail.com. We're going to switch gears here a little bit now.
Moving from the metaphysical plane to something a little bit more relevant to our current situation. The Science of Analytical Trilogy, Norberto Keppe's brilliant discoveries down here in São Paulo, Brazil. I've been out here for almost 10 years now and constantly amazed at how we can apply this psychosocial analysis to any area. People always have stories down here. They start to do some research on whatever topic you want to discuss, and they find something relevant in Norberto Keppe's books, in his work about that theme.
I should just remind you of our various contact information. JonesHealing at gmail.com is our personal email for this program.
Don't want to let any time go by without letting you know about those various things. Well, I've invited a good friend of mine and a very astute psychosocial therapist, Gilbert Gambucci, with me. Gilbert has been studying and working with Dr.
Norberto Keppe for, what is it, over 20 years now, Gilbert?
Gilbert Gambucci: Yeah, every day for the past 25 years now.
Richard: Yeah, a long time. Yep. And Gilbert is a real expert at talking about the application of Norberto Keppe's work in the area of art and culture. But I want to get him to do something a little different today. Well, we've talked about this topic before on our old Thinking with Somebody Else's Head radio programs.
So it's not a new one for him, but it's maybe new for this particular focus that we're going to take today. We've looked at, Gilbert, you and I, we've looked at the American values, the founding fathers, we've looked at economics, we've looked at art and aesthetics, we've looked at the old values of America. Now I think we should turn our Norberto Keppe lens, our Analytical Trilogy lens, on this issue of war that's happening and doesn't seem to be stopping in our world.
Obama has used moral values as justification for this latest war in Libya. And let's open sort of there. What are some initial thoughts that you have looking at this situation in Libya today?
Gilbert: Rich, we don't understand yet. What is the aggressive act? What is war? It's not being understood at all. And so I would like to try today to, from a scientific perspective, investigate this better because obviously it's something that we need to deal with.
And Dr. Keppe's science, it's amazing in the sense of the number of authors he has considered in order to compile such a science that can analyze, for example, what is war exactly. Yeah, 50, 60 years of research, right? And so ever since the 18th century, the first guys who were investigating the science of the mind, trying to understand the human being, the psyche of the human being, whether they were a neurologist or the first psychiatrist, like Mesmer from the 18th century, Wilhelm Wundt, Kreplin, Kretschmer, Jaspers, Brewer, Sigmund Freud, Alfred Adler, Jung, Melanie Klein, Viktor Frankl, right down to Dr.
Keppe. This line of investigating what is the human mind, what is being of the human being, you know it's a it's a fascinating uh science. And many of these guys rich their dream was to unite this science with philosophy and with spirituality because we have to consider these with the human being. He is thought also feeling and he is a spiritual being and so this cannot be eliminated from the human makeup and so of course Dr.
Keppe includes great theologians in the body of his work, like Thomas of Aquinas. Like the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. And very influential thinkers that had a positive influence on society.
Richard: He's a big fan of St. Augustine, for example, yes.
Gilbert: Augustine and such, Bergson, Max Webern, Schiller, Schelling, and of course the ancient Greek philosophers. Norberto Keppe has done a thorough study of the metaphysics of Aristotle because he wrote a lot about metaphysics.
Especially ontology, which is the study of being. Now, the problem is that Aristotle has many, he contradicts himself a lot. But anyway, there are things there that really gets people thinking about what is being. And actually, Dr. Kibbe draws more from Aristotle's teacher, Plato, as well as Socrates, and especially Parmenides. And so, what we have here is a body of work that it completed an understanding of the human psyche.
This is the beauty of Norberto Keppe's work, which you are showing all the time on your podcast, because we never had this before in history, this completion of, we say, psychoanalysis. Now, what happened was, is that it united with a perception of social pathology. This psychopathology is the same as the social pathology. It's the same principles.
Richard: Just magnified outwards, right? Exactly.
Gilbert: You know, what we have, the sickness that we have in an individual, we have in the society.
They're the same. And we never had this perception before in history. In this sense, this science is historical. Finally, we have a perception. We can understand what is going
Richard: on. Well, Keppe says that, actually. He says that the one thing that's been missing in our analysis of society, of our trying to build a better society, is exactly this, a science through which to analyze it.
So you're right, Gilbert, you've drawn a very broad brush about that that's very exciting. And
Gilbert: so we see, for example, that many people think that a mentally ill person and a delinquent are very different things. But actually, a delinquent person is mentally ill. It's a mental illness acting in the social plane. And so, he's dangerous socially. A mentally ill person is just dangerous to himself.
And so, we see that, for example, a terrorist, he's a mentally sick person acting on the social plane. And so, of course, this is dangerous. But it's a delinquency in the sense that there's a mental disturbance involved there. And what do we do with mentally ill people and with delinquents in our society? We put them in mental institutions or in prisons. And what happens is the people, they worsen there.
Anybody who goes to a mental hospital, they worsen. You know, they get very heavily medicated. They just worsen. And prison camps, they become much worse there. And so what this shows is that we don't want to deal with these things. We want to hide these people away, put them away. And so what happens is then the situation worsens in the society. We get more and more mentally ill people and more and more delinquent people because we're not dealing with it.
We're just putting them in prison, putting them away, hide
Richard: them. Censoring in a way, right? Censoring, yes.
Gilbert: Cutting them
Richard: off from contact with what's going on, yes. Exactly.
Gilbert: And there's another influence here is that there's a group of economically powerful people who are influencing the society in a negative way. And what happens is then people, they go against the society. They start to attack our society, which belongs to us, not knowing exactly why.
You know, they get like revolted with the situation, which is being provoked by an economic power that they're not perceiving very well. You know, it's not exactly the society in itself that is our problem. The essence of society is something beautiful. It's a place for us to live in harmony with ourselves, in harmony with one another. But there's a lot of pathology in the social plane.
Richard: Yeah, especially in the power structure, as you're discussing. Yes, especially there. So, Gilbert, then, this rejection of the problem that you're talking about, this rejection of the problems as they appear, something that happens socially is when we censor or put away or even execute the delinquents and the criminals. The same kind of thing that we do personally when we don't want to to see a problem, right, we will we will we start to drink or we start to fight or we start to create problems.
All of these are defense mechanisms for us not to see the problems that we have. And so here we we see in a personal level, you're making the connection between the personal and the social, the personal level we do the same thing. We block, we resist, we don't want to see. And what you're suggesting then is that we have the same mechanism in a social level.
It manifests as sometimes the justice, so-called justice system, sometimes the system of diplomacy, how we deal with these external problems. How are you making a connection there? What are you thinking? What's your link
Gilbert: there? What we're talking about here then on an individual level is paranoia, okay. When a person doesn't want to see any problem that he has inside himself, so what happens in a psychological sense, he starts projecting his problems onto other people.
You know, uh, who stole my car keys, where are they, who took them, you know, and they're in my pocket, you know, yeah, just to give a little example. But paranoia sees the problem outside and doesn't see the problem inside ourselves. And so really paranoia is a type of a delirium, it puts the person in a delirium because he's not seeing the reality of what's happening.
This is the value of perceiving our own personal psychopathology, you know, because then we can control that pathology and see the
Richard: reality better. And it's important to say that we all have these neurotic, even psychotic tendencies at times greater than others. But everybody carries these, don't they, Gilbert? Ah,
Gilbert: of course. So let's say the secret is to be in touch with your own illness so that it can be controlled, so that we stop the paranoia, stop projecting onto other people.
That's why many times couples, they break up, and they don't even know why. One is just projecting onto the other. They don't want to see any problem within themselves and situations, professional situations blow up. They never know why. You know, rich bands, very famous bands, musicians, they break up suddenly, and nobody even knows why.
Richard: The Everly brothers, for some reason, they were the best of friends in the 50s, brothers, and then suddenly they don't want to talk to each other anymore, you know.
John Lennon, Paul McCartney, oh, we have hundreds of examples of this, don't we?
Gilbert: Yes, because we refuse to see the problem that we have inside ourselves. And sometimes the other person can have that problem also, but you think that it's only coming from the outside and not from you
Richard: inside. Yeah, this woman is making me crazy. I have to leave the relationship because I'm not getting what I need from this person.
This kind of paranoia you're talking about. Exactly.
Gilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Now, Rich, only with Dr. Keppe's science, we can take this principle and see it on a social plane. For example, a nation that doesn't see any problems inside itself. So where do their problems come from? They think it comes from another
Richard: nation. Or a segment of the society, or a type of person somewhere out there, or some sort of, in the case of Germany, it would be the Jewish people are causing, and Hitler is Germany.
The Jewish people are causing all the problems. We isolate a segment of the
Gilbert: society. You know, as I work with Norberto Keppe and his team of analysts, it's very common for them to be attacked by their client. A client who doesn't want to see something inside themselves, how arrogant they are, or the envy that they have of other people, whatever it may be.
And so they attack the analyst. You know, rather than seeing the problem that they have inside themselves. So there's a certain maturity necessary there to be able to calm down the sick person in their paranoia, in their attacking others, to try to get them to see themselves a little bit better. You know, that the analyst is not attacking them, they're trying to help.
And so really when an aggressive person attacks somebody, if you're mature enough, who he's really harming is more himself than anybody else. But to bring this onto a social plane, for example, this question of waging war on terrorism, a nation that doesn't want to see any problems within itself. And in fact, the United States, when I was a teenager, Rich, we didn't have this phenomenon of kids going into the schools and shooting their mates.
It didn't exist at this time. You know, it's showing that the United States is going into a decadence. But what's happening is that as we wage war with other nations, this is causing an aggression, aggressive ramifications within the nation. You know, there are consequences to that. And so, let me ask some people something. Hang on. Before
Richard: you get into it, Gilbert, we need to take a break.
I'm just looking at the time here. I don't want you to start on a thought that you're not going to be able to complete. So, let's come back in a minute.
We're streaming on the Positive World Radio Network. Also, you can find us in iTunes.
Okay, so check that out when you can. We are back in just a moment. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. We'll be right back. Welcome back. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, the Positive World Radio Network. My name is Richard Lloyd Jones, and it's very great to be with you today. We're talking about, well, I think we're going to talk about many things, but particularly Norberto Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy and how it can be applied to social situations.
And Gilbert Gambucci, a researcher and teacher here at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy for the past 25 years, is with me today. And Gilbert, as we headed into the break, you were starting to open up an area that I think I wanted to make sure we had some time to explore that. When you were talking about the war on terror, and before that you were talking about this thing that we project what we don't want to see in ourselves, the problems we don't want to see in ourselves, we project outward.
And I think you were going to make a link between the increasing levels of violence, depression, problems that we see in America today, a link between the rise of those things and our external violence as it increases our external projection. Am I right in assuming that's where you want to go with this?
Gilbert: Yes, Rich. And there's something I should lay out first so that we can better understand that connection.
Yeah, great. It's in relation to the being, the nature of being, of the human being. Okay, this is a study of Dr. Keppe's metaphysics ontology, our findings on this, our scientific findings. Did you know that the human being is not designed to do an aggressive act? If he commits an aggression, he destroys his being. And the more aggressive he becomes, the more he destroys his being.
He deforms himself.
Richard: And you can say this because of Keppe's metaphysics, which considers the human being a complete creation, not a creation in development, which Aristotle would have said, that we're not a potential on the way to act, but we are a complete thing. So we have a complete inner moral ethical code already in place. We're not animals coming from the jungle, right?
Gilbert: Yes, exactly. You know, for example, guys who came back, veterans, war veterans who came back from World War II, at least when I was a youngster, I saw them living in this, the little town where I'm from, Jessup, Pennsylvania, 5,000 people. And we had war veterans there. And clearly they had psychological problems. You know, these guys were in action. And I remember one guy, every time, the poor guy walking down the street, he would suddenly stop and with his feet he would start looking for mines, you know, and then he would check things out and then he would walk 10 or 15 feet more, stop and he would start checking for mines.
And he was like that his whole life, you know.
They have terms that they invent, you know, shell shock and things like this, but we see that he was psychologically damaged for life. I remember another guy. He seemed to be okay. He came back. He seemed to be all right. But one day he held his wife hostage in the attic with all of his guns, and the police had to come and surround the house.
He just kind of mentally snapped out, and he was a war veteran. These are nice guys, and they say clearly, many of them, that they think they were tricked into killing other people because afterwards they realized that they were damaged. And, you know, I... But
Richard: this makes sense. Vietnam. Well, Vietnam veterans, this is the classic. Maybe it's even more than World War II.
World War II was considered, you know, sort of a justifiable war. I'm sure we'll get into discussing war in that sense. But the Vietnam War particularly disturbed a lot of young people who went there and came back.
Gilbert: You know, my brother is a bartender in a veteran's bar, and he has a lot of stories from the vets. When their tongue gets a little bit loose and start talking.
And they're very angry, they're very upset, very bitter. They feel that they were tricked into war because the aggressive act causes damage to the being of the person. Otherwise, Rich, otherwise we can be aggressive and suffer no consequences if we were designed to be aggressive, but we're not. So that shows that there's already something wrong with the aggressive act. And so it's a sick individual who puts himself into physical violence against another.
That's a very kind
Richard: of delinquent, mentally imbalanced person who does that. Yeah, somebody who enjoys that, right? Most of us, we may do it because we find ourselves in those situations or we lose our cool, but we don't feel good about that after. So can
Gilbert: you see on a social plane that an individual who wages war against another nation is a very imbalanced individual?
There are other ways of solving problems. Even if somebody attacks you, if you're a mature nation, you have to see, well, what happened there exactly? Until today, the Twin Towers attack was not clarified. No.
Richard: Who
Gilbert: was involved in that? What happened? We know that there were many American institutions involved in that attack. It was not just the foreign people involved. But you cannot solve a problem of which you are unaware.
You know, you have to check the thing out. You have to have the maturity to see what's going on. But what do we prefer to do? If you're imbalanced, wage war. Now, what is war? War is the biggest terroristic act that there is. You know, at least terrorism, it's a one-shot thing. It happens one day. But war is something that happens every day, every day.
You're terrorizing a nation every day. You're bombing them. There's no greater terroristic act than to wage war. So by doing so, you put yourself at the same level as a terrorist by waging war. It's the same psychopathology. And as a result, the same social pathology. So there's absolutely no justification for war. It's mental illness. It's a delinquency. Now,
Richard: this is strong, and I totally agree with you.
And I think that there is something to be said here about why this is so serious today. Because we can look at this in terms of sort of collateral damage, you know, that by bombing, and Canada and France are very involved in this war in Libya, to my great shame, being Canadian too. I think the Harper government in Canada, which is coming up for re-election in another month or so, I think is doing a terrible injustice to the original Canadian values.
And I just want to put that out there. So we can, it's a terrible thing, Gilbert, that Canada should not be playing this kind of game. I feel the shame of that as well, being an American. So we can see this in a collateral damage way, that by bombing these countries in the Arab world, we are creating more and more terrorists because there are going to be people angry about us being in there.
We can see it on that level, but we can really see it more, I think more strongly in this sort of spiritual interior level that you're talking about, that we're doing damage to our very psyche. In a spiritual way, you know, we're attacking the essence of who we are. And this is where you want to go with this, isn't it? It's much more than just creating terrorists, creating people angry at us.
We're creating a decadence with inside our own societies.
Gilbert: We're creating a decadence with it, Rich. This is the thing. Maybe if we put a little historic perspective on this, we can see it better. For example, the greatest cultural, artistic, social development that we had was the Romanticism in 19th century, early 20th century, which came from Germany, you know, with Goethe. And we had the greatest composers there, Bach, who was considered the father of music.
He invented how to organize musical composition, Bach and Beethoven and Brahms. And they had a very highly developed cultural, artistic, social society Philosophy too, right? Kant and Hegel The greatest philosophers And so what happened? They were led into waging war against the world. And that was it, it finished up with their nation. They entered into a psychological decadence. And until today, they feel the shame of that.
They're paying for that until today. It's not easy to recover from war, like people think. It's very damaging. War puts a nation back at least 50
Richard: years. England felt that, Gilbert, after the Second World War. Boy, they were struggling. War coupons, they were on food stamps. It was very difficult after the war there.
Gilbert: And you know, in the United States, Rich, the more we wage...
War. The more you pay for that inside your own country... This
Richard: is the point I want you to come to here, Gilbert, because we're paying a price, sort of diplomatically, this is obvious, but we're paying a bigger price in terms
Gilbert: of... Psychological. Among the people.
Richard: Psychologically, people are hurting
Gilbert: with this. Of course, you know, if your society is waging war, the members of that society, whether you close your eyes to it or not, you suffer for that.
And so there are many Americans who are against the war. But against the waging war. But as we noticed a little bit earlier, it's being fed by a very sick power structure. We call them the economically powerful. With their multinational corporations. And their secret sect societies. They sit on the hierarchy of these societies. And they have their intentions for society. And they are really doing their designs for us.
And so we can't close our eyes to this. We have to draw the line somewhere and see war for what it is. It is a mental illness. And if I just may say, Rich, because there are a lot of people who support war, and some just blindly
Richard: so. Some say it's like a necessary evil in our diplomatic chaos today.
Gilbert: You know, this shows a mentally imbalanced person.
Now, what happens is, if you recognize this in yourself, then you can recover from that and come to the reality. But if you say, no, it's like this. It's necessary. That's something good. Like slaughtering a nation of people is something good. Then this shows a mentally ill person.
Richard: Let me just talk about a couple of things here. We've got about three or four minutes left.
They're getting around this thorny issue that this is a war in libya now in the United States by saying calling it a kinetic military action. It sounds like a a lawyer's term right there. They're getting it because if it's a war it needs congressional approval. So by not calling it a war you can get around that thorny issue of going to the congress which is really this is a totally unethical.
It's like Clinton saying it wasn't sex, you know, because sexual intercourse didn't take place. But I just want to go through Obama's statement here, Gilbert, and I know you'll have some thoughts about that. He said, we knew, this is quoting Obama now, we knew that if we waited one more day, Benghazi, a city nearly the size of Charlotte, could suffer a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.
Well, here we see this inflammatory spin stuff. And then he goes on to say, it was not in our national interest to let that happen. I refused to let that happen. And so, nine days ago, after consulting the bipartisan leadership of Congress, not the Congress totally, the bipartisan leadership, I authorized military action to stop the killing and enforce UN Security Council Resolution 1973, I think, to stop the killing.
How
Gilbert: can
Richard: anybody swallow this, actually? I don't know. Sincerely. Because they
always do. It's the same tactic, Rich. It's always the same, that they need to go in to destroy an evil leader so that they can replace that with democracy and well-being for the people. That's what they sell to us. And what happens? You know, in the bombs that have been used in Iraq and now in Libya, Rich, did you know that the shrapnel contains radiation?
So what happens is afterwards, people start dying from the radiation.
Gilbert: So this is a kind of a proof that they're not there to rectify the situation. They want to destroy the population, and they are destroying it. Yeah,
Richard: this is very serious because they use these, they use nuclear waste in these warheads, which causes this problem of radiation. Yeah,
Gilbert: it's on purpose. It's to kill people afterwards.
So the
Richard: radiation stays there and people are, more people are dying from the radiation afterwards than from the initial explosion. And the irony is lost completely, Gilbert, that here we are going in to stop killing by killing. So, you know, we want to stop a horrible dictator who's killing his own people, and I'm not defending Gaddafi in any way because I think he is a psychopathic sort of personality, but we're going in there to stop him
Gilbert: from killing by killing ourselves.
On the same level of mental illness. And that's not the way to resolve any problems. War never resolved a problem. It just creates more problems. And anybody who believes in what the politicians say
Richard: as to why we are going to war is somebody who is completely out of any type of reality here on this planet. I don't know what kind of a bubble such a person is living in, Rich, because it's just so obvious.
You know, this has to be addressed. Yeah, okay, we're going to address that when we come back. We have to take another break. Time flies on this show, doesn't it, Gilbert? This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. Gilbert Gambucci and i will be back in just a moment to continue our discussion about war and the ill effects it has on our society and our psyche.
Back in just a moment, don't go away. We are back. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Positive World Radio Network. It's Richard Lloyd Jones with you. We're getting pretty uh deep here with Gilbert Gambucci into this question of war. He said at the end of our last break there about living in a bubble. Gilbert and i think that's really something we need to take very seriously because we have been warned about the evils of war just in our generation, Gilbert, listening to Gandhi and Martin Luther King and John Kennedy to some degree and Robert Kennedy too.
You and I, our generation has a direct contact with this thing of war. And I remember when Obama was making his acceptance speech for the Nobel Peace Prize, unbelievably that he won, saying, I have great admiration for Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King is the reason I have the ability or have the chance to have the position that I have in my society today.
I admire him completely, but I cannot follow him. That's an entirely two-faced statement. Exactly. And as a leader, I have an obligation to defend my people. I cannot be, he's sort of insinuating, he could not be an idealistic dreamer talking about the evils of war. But Martin Luther King advised us, didn't he? He talked very deeply. He said, a nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.
Didn't get much clearer than that, does it?
Gilbert: Where is this kind of realistic logic today, Rich? You don't hear people saying things like this.
Richard: No. What's happened to us, Gilbert? What's happened? We've gotten in this bubble you're talking about. I think we're all anesthetized or to one degree or other. Here in Brazil, we fight very hard to be conscious, to see. But the world has become anesthetized.
People don't react anymore. It's like you throw water in their face and there's nothing that happens. What's going on here?
Gilbert: You know, I was a kid when Kennedy was dealing with the Cuban Missile Crisis. And at that time, even though there were very high tensions of the Cold War at that time, And Kennedy believed the Cold War was a myth. He was looking to how to dissolve this myth, which was, in fact, fabricated.
We see the blueprints of the papers of the CIA that fabricated the Cold War, put it together. And Kennedy was about dismantling this. And there's one famous quote of Kennedy saying, during this time, of course, he was consulting his generals. He was consulting all kinds of people. And he said to his brother, Robert, and a couple of other guys, if we do what my generals are telling us to do, we will not live to tell them that they were wrong.
And so they were very weary about war. They were not jumping into war at all. They wanted to avoid it at all costs. And in fact, after Kennedy outsmarted Khrushchev at that time and his cabinet members were celebrating, He said to them, look, this was just as much of a victory for them as it was for us. So stop gloating. You know, so they were very serious.
They wouldn't go to war for any reason. It had to be avoided. And we see a very different spirit today. People, our nation's entering into one war after another. Yeah, for almost no reason. We are paying the consequences. Our society today is in a very strong decadence. And no one is feeling the shame of it. It's a very arrogant situation, so it is not turning around.
I can guarantee you that we will not recover yet because people are not ashamed of what we are doing. It's a very arrogant situation, very megalomaniac. And so the decadence is continuing.
Richard: In fact, Martin Luther King warned us about that too. He said, it seems I can hear God saying to America, you are too arrogant. This is back in the 60s, right?
This
Gilbert: is Martin Luther King speaking
Richard: to us now. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking to us now, if you don't change your ways, he said, I will rise up and break the back. Bone of your power. He was trying to use the power of the Holy Spirit to say, look, people, we have to get smarter about this. We can't just invade other countries. Injustice is injustice.
It's not like a debatable point.
Gilbert: And this is what's happening to us today. You know, in Germany, Rich, they're beginning to recover themselves since World War II, since what happened to them, being deceived by a leader who was just completely psychotic, waging war against the world. They entered in a very serious psychological decadence as a result. And now German people are very ashamed of that.
You know, in our international endeavors here and there, we see that with the German people. And as a result, they are starting to recover. And they will recover, because they've had a cultural foundation which to stand on in the past. But we don't see this attitude with Americans. So the decadence is continuing.
Richard: Guilt feelings, in this sense, are very useful, aren't they, Gilbert?
Guilt feelings help us to become conscious of what we've done wrong.
Gilbert: Exactly. We have guilt feelings normally when we've done something wrong.
Richard: You know, we had this chance in the 70s when Jimmy Carter was president. Carter was a weak president in many ways, of course, but he had that very famous speech where he interrupted the network television programs and made his famous we're in trouble speech.
Like, you know, where too many of us are concerned about consumerism and selfishness. And, you know, Michael Moore shows this clip, a little scene from this clip in his capitalism documentary. And what happened after that? It was like such a downer for people. They went and elected an actor who wanted to say, forget about Vietnam. The basic message of Reagan was America's wonderful.
America's incredible. Forget about those problems. Let's start investing. Let's start turning the bull loose in his terminology. Let's start investing in anything we want. Let's start dominating the world again. Why are we worried about this little problem of Vietnam and consumerism? Go forward. This was a big mistake, wasn't it?
Gilbert: You know, Rich, I'm just reminded in the song of America the Beautiful.
It says, crown thy good with brotherhood. And we're doing the opposite. It. We're taking the good that was given to us by our founding fathers, what the greatest constitution the planet has ever seen, and we're using it to wage war against others, brotherhood. What is this? You know, this last generation or two of Americans is a very evil generation. Let's speak the truth.
Let's say it the way it is. It's a very envious, evil generation, and they're ruining the greatness that our founding fathers laid out for us.
Richard: Now, those values that existed that we all admired about America, they still exist, don't they? There are people that still carry forward those, but it's a faint, faint, faint echo. Like we had our good friend Bob Butler was visiting us for about three months, a few months ago he was here.
And Bob, to me, carries those values still of wanting to help people, of wanting to be of use, of service. But even so, because of the very tight control inside the North American media, the basic, even the Americans, the good Americans like this, and Canadians too, we're totally lost. We don't understand what's happening in the world. We have lost our way completely.
So we need to, you know, Gilbert and I are being pretty strong here today, but it's very important that we understand a little bit more about this pathological tendency we have to not want to see what's really going
Gilbert: on. Yeah, Rich, we have to stop serving the attention of these international bankers, these economically powerful people, as we call them, who are dominating Washington.
And surely our listeners must know this by now. They dominate our politicians. In fact, they infiltrate. They have infiltrated our government there. They are there. They are our government. And some of them, I don't know, maybe 5% of the people who are in Washington are sincere, but they're so dominated by these others that they don't know what to do, and they don't have the support of the people.
Nobody says anything. There's a kind of silence about the whole
Richard: thing. Well, in fact, if you do speak out against Gilbert, you're considered a terrorist in some circles, So it's very, very difficult, you know. But there is something about the anesthetization of our North American culture. How has that occurred, do you feel? How has it come to be that we don't care anymore, that we're not connected anymore?
What's the process whereby that happened?
Gilbert: I think, Rich, I'm not 100% sure. I think that people are afraid to see that we were deceived. Because these economically powerful people, they're very smart as to how they planned to cripple the United States, not only economically, but even psychologically, intellectually, in all ways.
Richard: Artistically, culturally.
Gilbert: Artistically in all ways. Their idea was that if they can bring the United States people under control, then they can bring the rest of the world under control as well.
And so the American people are the people who are most attacked by these people. And they're a group of cowards. They don't, like, declare war. It's undeclared, but they're doing it. They're waging war against the American people. And how are they
Richard: doing that, Gilbert? How are they attacking the spirit of what America was in its origin? Well,
Gilbert: just to mention one way, Rich, It's the fact that they have bought up all mainstream media of all types in the world.
And so anybody who believes what the mainstream media says is from outer space. I mean, you're not in reality at all. Thank goodness there are alternative media people like Alex Jones. He interviews people who speak the truth, like your podcast, that really show the truth and analyze the things for what they are. There are some medias that do this, and this is like water to a desert.
You know, we need this, because the mainstream media is totally corrupt. They serve the interests of the economically powerful who are
Richard: attacking us. I just want to use an example of this. There's a journalist out of California. Gary Webb was his name. And Gary Webb wrote a series of articles that got him censored in the media. This was a journalist, Gilbert, who wrote about anything he wanted to.
He was never censored by his editors, never. He wrote about corruption in city council. He wrote about injustice in business. He wrote about anything he wanted to until he wrote an article about the CIA's involvement in introducing crack cocaine into Los Angeles. When he wrote that, I forget what the title of his series was called, The Dark Something. When he wrote that, then he experienced censorship for the first time.
And it was very, very, very subtle. The Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, the Washington Post, these three sort of purveyors of the general view in the media, they didn't say anything about his series of articles, nothing, for a few weeks, which was a total surprise. And then when they did begin to speak, they began to speak about, were the facts really true?
It wasn't exactly as he said. They began to poke holes in it to the point where his editors began to disbelieve what he was writing to, to have disbelief in him. And slowly the story lost force. What should have been an explosion inside the media became a wimpy non-event on the last page of the newspaper. That's how it worked. When you put your finger into these areas where the power affects us, then nothing.
Then you hear it.
Gilbert: Then you feel it. The fact that the media is owned by these powerful people is actually against the intentions of the founding fathers of the United States. It was Thomas Paine who said that the media needs to be free. That is to say, it needs to be independent so that it can report the news as it sees it.
And they can't be bought up by these people. And so then, of course, they've served the interests of their owners.
Richard: Yeah. The series I was thinking about, Gary Webb, is called The Dark Alliance. But yes, this, and if you look on the boards of directors, Gilbert, of the top corporations in America. It's the same guys on all of the boards of directors.
It's like 300 people who dominate the board of directors of the major corporations inside the United States. So it wouldn't be unusual to have a member of the board from the New York Times on the DuPont board, you know, the Chemical Company or Monsanto. So this is very, very serious problem in America today. Rich,
Gilbert: this brings us to another very difficult topic, the question of brainwashing.
So if the media is owned by these international bankers then they sell us whatever they want through their media. So how can We explain that people are so willing to allow our nation to go to war whenever somebody says, okay, we're going to war. There we are. How do we agree with that?
Richard: Always leave them wanting more, Gilbert. We have to stop now, and we're going to have to do another program about this because it's a fascinating topic.
But all the time we have today, nice to have you along with us. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network.
Bye for now.
