Richard Lloyd Jones: Everywhere we look today, we see devastation. War is still far too common. Races, religions, classes, and cultures are lined up against each other. The ice is melting. The species are disappearing. It can leave you feeling, well, devastated. And it all causes a deep wound in the human soul. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and today I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, healing the soul and society.
Well, this is a topic that is daunting to approach, because to begin to treat it means to go deeply into the causes of why society and human beings have gotten so far from the truth of human existence. And this challenges us. Those who hold to evolutionary ideas insist this is just the natural progression from the jungle to civilization. Those who are more socially active point to the transgressions of corporations or the inadequacy of control mechanisms and laws.
Most of us are just trying to get by from one day to the next and don't give it much thought. But from the point of view of the science of psychosociopathology developed by psychoanalyst Norberto Keppe, we are very far from our true existence, what we were created for. In other words, we are not living as we should. And this is because of our human psychopathology, which is then reflected out into the society we've elaborated.
This means we are acting against life, against our natural good, beautiful, and true essence, and this causes a deep angst in the human soul. We explore the essence of this theme in all of our programs, of course, and I would like to let you know of a couple of other events we'll be conducting soon to explore this in more detail. We're holding an international psychosomatic conference from March 20th to 23rd, 2008, here in Brazil, to explore the latest in trilogical psychoenergetic medicine.
Very provocative, this area, and revolutionary. And our 19th International Congress of Analytical Trilogy, entitled Psychosociotherapy, A New Science for a New World, will be conducted from July 4th to 6th, 2008, also here in Brazil, where a number of psychosociotherapists will analyze subjects like economics, health, education, media, ecology, science, arts, and show how it's gone wrong and how to fix it. This is very interesting analysis that's only possible through Keppe's science.
It's ambitious, to be sure, but I'm not overstating the case. Keppe's science is truly remarkable and unique in its ability to explain the complex interactions between man and nature. Just email me anytime rich at richjonesvoice.com for more information. Today, an expansive conversation with Dr. Cláudia Pacheco, vice president of Keppe's International Society of Analytical Trilogy.
Cláudia, our world and human beings are in trouble. What do we do about that?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: I would like to mention the need that there is in the world, this big need to acknowledge the importance of our psychological life. Psyche in Greek means soul. And our souls were like an object of study or spiritual life is being. The being is spiritual. And we could never, ever do the separation between body and soul as Descartes did and many others did.
Even Plato did. So, in order to understand being, we have to understand that we are spiritual beings. And all the other manifestations, tangible manifestations, sensitive manifestations, sensorial manifestations, even sometimes material manifestations are just manifestations of the spirit and the true, true energy and everything comes from this is the spirit which is the essential energy all
Richard: of Dr.
Keppe's work is about this essential point, Cláudia returning us to the inside inside us. You say in your new book that this psychological energetic aspect of us is something that medicine can't touch and therefore must be treated as something non-material energetic spiritual metaphysical that involves things like values philosophy of life feelings of love even emotions like envy the negative aspect of this and this treatment involves totally abstract elements such as good and evil ethics virtue addictions ideals.
We could call this science that treats problems at this level metaphysical, or in your new language, psychosociotherapeutic. Yes,
Cláudia: Jones, because Keppe developed the science, which is, I think, the newest science in the world, the baby science, and it is the most important science. It came from the basis of psychoanalysis, philosophy, social sciences, and theology, physics.
Keppe had all this background, but he had always in his mind that he wanted to diminish, to alleviate the suffering of humanity and human beings, the pain of organic illnesses but most of all the suffering of our souls and our psychological inner life because it's much more difficult to bear an anguish a state of panic or anxiety or guilty feelings this idea of the lack of meaning for life all these anguishes and anxieties that lead people to all crazy attitudes like committing suicide, killing each other, promoting wars.
Richard: Exploiting other people.
Cláudia: Exploiting. Torturing. Being addicted to drugs and destroying ourselves. Everything comes from our psychological inner life. So, how to alleviate that? Would we alleviate that through changing only cultural values or changing environmental problems or social laws. Yes, we should change all this too.
But the root of everything is the emotional, psychological life of each one of us.
Richard: Dr. Keppe says exactly this in Universe of the Spirits, his amazing book. It's fundamental for us to perceive that the enormous individual and social pathology around us has been created by the choice of human beings.
Cláudia: Yes. And, of course, now that we are born in a sick society, and society is very sick, all the structure, all the values, all the laws are inverted, are upside down.
So society became a very sick place to live and to be born. But, you know, we must see that society followed craziness. Society followed psychopathology. The pathology of human mind, human souls. And we have to go to the deep down root. So psychosociopathology is a science that Keppe developed because he wanted to diminish or to, as I said, to alleviate the suffering of people in their illnesses.
Should these illnesses be organic, social or psychological? And the interconnection between society, pathology, sociopathology and psychopathology and interrelation, each one feed each other.
Richard: Maybe we can move into this connection between psychopathology and sociopathology with this, you talked earlier about the problem of suicide, of this kind of inner angst, deep feeling of worthlessness or pain that we see in society that I think we suffer from.
I'm from Canada. Canada is a country that has everything, Cláudia, on a material level. And yet I sense in the people there many times a deep sense of uselessness. What is my life for? What am I doing? I have everything and I still feel something inside that's not complete. We're seeing this now with the levels of suicide
Cláudia: happening in the United States and depression.
But especially with these U.S. Veterans coming back from the war in Iraq. Do you have the figures here? I have
Richard: the figures. 120 a week. Over 6,000 in 2005 when they did the study. The normal suicide rate in the United States is 8.9 people per 1,000, which I think is pretty high anyway. In veterans, it's 18.7 to 20.8, and in young veterans, age between 20 and 24, it's 22.9 to 31.9 in 1,000.
That's like three or four times the normal rate. This must be a symptom of, in a deep way,
Cláudia: this angst we have inside. So this is a proof that truth is not relative. Goodness is not relative. People say that in some cultures, killing is allowed, to kill each other. So in this sense, you see that this is not the truth of the situation.
Because if you invade another country, and if you kill innocent people, especially if you do this out of money, because I'm sure those veterans accept to do this because of the pay they get from this.
So they become like mercenaries and even though it's accepted it's like socially accepted inside United States but by millions of people that the war is justifiable the end justifies the mean the means so killing each other is totally unnatural totally against nature especially nature of man, which is essentially should serve the opposite purpose of being good, serving life, helping other people to survive, to have a better quality of life, and never, ever killing each other.
Richard: That's why the training for military people is so violent, because you have to force somebody to go against this essence inside.
Cláudia: Yes, against themselves. Themselves. They, like, pretend they are fighting against terrorism, but deep down they know it's not right. And so stepping on their own consciousness and their own conscience and their own essence hurts them so much.
And they don't want to admit that. And not wanting to admit leads them to commit suicide. Because if we face our reality, then it's, I should not say easier, but it's possible to overcome a problem like that. But if they don't want to face the reality, so suicide is their option, which is not an option, of course.
Richard: You talk in your book, Keep an Eye on Your Health, about the importance of consciousness as a tool for the psychosociotherapist to use.
And this is one thing I've wondered about for a number of years. When I first came here to Brazil and I started to face through my own analysis my difficulties, my problems, my inversions, my envy, all of these things, the initial feeling I had was this can't be good for me to see all this stuff. This has to hurt me somehow. Because how can I get up in the morning knowing that I'm a complete inverted human being with really bad intentions?
How can this be good for me?
Cláudia: Yeah, this is the problem, because consciousness is within us, either accepting or not. We are born with consciousness, and we are born with a good essence, a true essence, a beautiful essence. So it's not a matter of learning something from the analyst or from Keppe. We have it within us. So the key of CAPI is that if we hide, if we suppress consciousness, we create a lot of infirmities in society, psychological infirmities, and even organic infirmities.
So like even obesity, eating too much, it's a kind of somatizing our psychological drama, which is already in us. So if you come to do analysis you will have always a symptom you could have a psychological symptom a neurotic attitude or panic attacks or anxiety you could have an organic problem you could have sexual problems you could have addictions something will be wrong in yourself.
So if you come to analysis you will see that there was something previous to analysis that was wrong and you knew that deep down, and you were not able to reach that point. So analysis should be to dissolve censorship, to dissolve this oppression, the resistance, and see the conflict. And why the conflict? Because you were adopting attitudes against your own well-being and against your own being.
So if you do that it hurts and if it hurts and you cover up neurotic symptoms or organic diseases show up this
Richard: is such a fantastic consideration and I want to see if we can bring some specific examples to this because it can seem kind of like how do we get a handle on it but Dr Keppe says in in one of his books that this is the essential difference between our psychoanalytic process here in Brazil, and that of other schools of psychology, Keppe says, "we try to do everything we can to help the person become conscious of how his attitude is similar to all of the evil tendencies exhibited by humanity as a whole."
But the laws of society have been set up to stifle perception. We just put the people in prison or re-execute them. We send them off to war without knowing why they're going, without telling them the truth of what they're
Cláudia: doing. They go to hospitals.
Richard: They go to hospitals.
Cláudia: And when they go to hospitals, they come back with much more problems and much less energy than when they went there.
A lot of diseases come, too. But let's give a practical example. I've just attended a client, and she was speaking about an ex-boyfriend of hers. And it was so difficult for her to split this relationship and he wanted to split. He was the one who took the initiative and they were for three years living together and there was this kind of passion in the beginning.
So you know, Jones, that in the first six months people have in their brain the same chemistry of the schizophrenics.
They get into a delirious attitude in the passion And why? If we deny the true source of our well-being in our inner selves, which is being good, doing good, being beautiful, doing beautiful things, being truthful, this is the true source. Because then we get in resonance, we plug into God's energy or if you want to say universal energy, this universal essential energy in order to get in tune and be able to receive the waves of energy, the vibrations.
If you have 220 and if you plug in 110, it will not work and vice versa.
Richard: It'll blow up. Yes.
Cláudia: So if we want to plug with our true source of energy so we can be fed, because we don't provide energy by ourselves. We are fed by external energy, universal energy, essential energy. Even our hearts, they stop beating if we put ourselves inside a...
Richard: Lead box.
Cláudia: Lead box.
So we need this energy coming from outside. But in order to really be fed with this energy and have our batteries provided enough energy, we need to be in similar vibration, in resonance with the laws of the universe. And these laws are extremely exact in their purposes. So, if you don't follow exactly the laws of ethics, of goodness, of aesthetics, beauty, and if you lie, if you're not really truthful, then this resonance will not work properly.
Richard: You'll be out of resonance somehow.
Cláudia: Out of resonance, you will get some energy, just enough to continue for a time. It's like using a hair dryer in a lower kind of wave, like using 220 in 110 or something.
Richard: Right, right. Your hair dries, but very slowly. Very slowly,
Cláudia: and it ends up by…
Richard: Yeah, eventually the whole thing is destroyed. Yes. And the relationship with your client, as you were discussing, your client
Cláudia: with… So they were, like in passion, they were empty in themselves of this energy.
So they thought, wow, the other one will give me what is missing in myself. So these passions, these attractions, our fatal attractions, in terms that they want to eat up each other and to suck the energy of each other which is missing in themselves. So they think, I love that person, I can't live without you. But this is maybe, and most of the times, is a manifestation of envy.
I need you. I want to eat you. I need your energy. I want your beauty, your goodness, your generosity to myself. I want you in my life to feed and make me happy. Otherwise, who am I alone with myself and my solitude? So this is the sign that something is very wrong in my life. If I miss so much someone, it's because I'm missing this essential energy inside of myself.
Richard: Not acknowledging that, I need to try and get it from the outside.
Cláudia: Yes.
And we'll never get that, Richard. I'll never get that. It's impossible to provide our inner energy through other people like us, other human beings. We need the source of energy. The source of this energy. And then, of course, we can share it. We can, like, resonate with good people, too. But it's a resonance. It's
Richard: not
Cláudia: a getting. It's not a getting. So after a while this couple started to realize that they didn't get what they needed from each other and then the hate started to show up a lot of somatic diseases came to both of them and now that they split after a drama of this like it's like parasite it's like being parasite of each other and this splitting causes a lot of pain but after a while it's liberating if you succeed to to go through that experience it can be liberating if you find the true cause of it so competition and envy start after a time among couples and among each other between each other.
And
Richard: they start fighting and, well, accusing each other. Could this desire for something that we don't feel inside, the desire to get that on the outside, could that be some of the answer behind the reason that children are so abused in our society? Yes. That we're trying to get the beauty, the innocence that
Cláudia: we don't feel? Yes, and to get and destroy it.
Because if I destroy it within myself, I want to destroy outside. But they don't realize they are destroying. They think that this beauty and this innocence in children will provide them something that is missing. And it's like vampirism. It's like a vampirism. Like, I need that. And, for instance, this, as you mentioned, lately, most of the cases are mental sick people. And they must be treated as mentally sick and not only put in jail, those pedophilic cases.
Which
Richard: are terrible things to see, you know. And now we have things on the internet, we have sexual tourism, we have all of these sicknesses.
Cláudia: But this is a result of a sick society, you see, Jones? Because if society does not provide any means to the person to get to the true source of satisfaction, which is psychological, which is spiritual, we don't see any more arts being developed.
The arts are so destroyed, so decadent, and we don't see moral, ethical, spiritual values in society. We don't see static values, humanitarian values. So if people can't be happy in society, how come they can be healthy in their sexual lives as well? They need something to compensate, and this is not a compensation, because then feelings of guilt will come like tsunamis of feelings of guilt.
Richard: How can Keppe's work help us to resolve this?
Because I feel as you're talking that Keppe's work offers us something really that will help us to resolve this deep issue socially, individually, within relationships, within communities, at a very, very profound level. Give us some examples of how he's treating this directly in his work.
Cláudia: Well, we have in our society psychoanalysts working, and we have therapeutic teachers, like therapists, psychosocial therapists. And how do they work?
They use tools, instruments, to conscientize or to make people conscious of their psychological lives and how this affects society and vice versa. So we must learn how envy, how arrogance, how inversion, how bad intentions, how meanness that we have within us can destroy our lives and do destroy our lives. Because if we see this, we can modify, we can adopt a better attitude and start modifying behaviors and building or going back to this previous state that we should be living in a kind of paradise in this planet.
There is no reason people fight for something, because if you pay attention, fighting, wars, anything, any fight is about a secondary, superficial, sometimes irrational subject or reason. Because if you are looking for essentials in your life, you will never fight. If you are essentially good, or if you are trying to be good, honestly trying, you will have no reasons to fight.
Richard: We also have our…
Cláudia: And we have, as you asked me, we have TV programs, we have radio programs, we have podcasts, we have classes, we have reading groups, we have workshops, immersion groups.
We have many, many things and many means to bring this awareness to people. Good action is the recipe. Trying to be good and doing good things for yourself and other people. Forcing yourself to be good. In all means, in all levels. And that's the reason CAPI created this structure of trilogical enterprises and trilogical residences where people can be better, doing better work than in normal society.
Because if you do analysis and then you go to a bank and if you exploit people through charging interest or just making profits or being rich or making people richer, this is not a fulfilling kind of life. And you will have the reflections in your health. This is for sure. So in society, there's very little room to be truthful. If you tell the truth in society, you will be beaten up or you will be attacked or put in jail.
But in those trilogical societies, people who are truthful are the best ones.
Richard: This transition between the two is going to be a big challenge for us.
Cláudia: And that's why we need more technicians in therapy. Like we need more therapists being trained. And we need desperately to train people in psychosociotherapy. This is a new profession. It's very needed. It must be taught in universities, in schools.
We are being asked to apply this in many places, but we don't have therapists enough trained to perform this task. In many countries, they need that. So we are opening the training to more people.
Richard: Yeah, we're beginning this. Our plan is to begin this in January of 2008. We have some online courses that we're working to develop now, but also to develop, I think, a year-and-a-half or two-year program.
Cláudia: Two-year program, yes.
Richard: For people to become psychosociotherapists specialized in psychosociopathology.
Cláudia: Yes, but this requires a very practical, it's like forming, it's like training, it's living, it's doing analysis himself, oneself, and being analyzed and doing analysis and living for a time. You know, when you become a doctor, you have the residents inside hospitals. So we will need a time of residents inside triological enterprises and residences.
So people will see in practice how human beings behave when it comes to the field of psychopathology and how to work with this. And it's not easy, it's very serious, but it's extremely fulfilling when you perform that because you see the results coming very fast. Sometimes you're just giving a lecture. People write back to you and they thank you because they were able to be healed of migraines, of ulcers, high blood pressure.
Sometimes many, many organic problems were healed just through lectures. So it's a very powerful tool. Conscientization of the psychosociopathology is an extremely powerful tool to help humanity.
Richard: You listening can write me, rich at richjonesvoice.com, and I will give you more information about that. It would be good for those people to get on our mailing list because as this begins to develop, right now we're doing it in Brazil, but eventually we're going to be taking it in much bigger ways out to the world.
And there may even be some people listening now who want to come here and study with us, which would be fantastic
Cláudia: too. Yes, we have people coming from Russia, from the United States, from Italy, from many countries. And the more we realize the importance of this new science, the more people should start thinking seriously that this is the science for the third millennium because it is the only science that really understands in depth human mind and human psyche.
A
Richard: new science for a new world. It's an ambitious proposal. But the understanding of the key issue of mankind, which is our fight against our nature and Mother Nature, is here now in Keppe's work. So, too, are the ample tools to treat it. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Talk to you next week.
