Richard Lloyd Jones: Some say it comes from our social inequality. Others that greed and the lust for power are behind it. Still others say it's just our nature. We're too soon out of the jungle. But these are unsatisfactory to those looking to solve the question, why is human society in such terrible shape? Now here in Brazil, one scientist has managed some answers. Today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, Humanity's Core Problem Explained.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Norberto Keppe's science is called psychosociopathology, and it's the result of more than 50 years of clinical research into what makes the human being tick. I'm pretty impressed with it because it provides some definitive conclusions about what's going on in the human psyche and how those murky bits are manifesting in the collective society as well. We'll be providing a great look at Keppe's science of psychosociopathology at our 19th International Congress on Analytical Trilogy, July 4th to 6th, 2008, here in Brazil.
A State of the Union address, if you will, on the definitive conclusions about the human psyche and how we can treat it and the inverted social structures that are born out of it. Get back to me with questions, rich at richjonesvoice.com. Be great to have you there if you're interested. You know, after the initial discoveries of Freud and Klein and Jung and others, the science of psychology lost its way in the behaviorism of Skinner, which saw human beings as nothing more than pigeons who needed a good behavioral reprogramming, and the more social therapies of Rogers and Karen Horney.
We could consider that before Norberto Keppe, the study of the human psyche had come to a dead end. After that promising start by Freud and the early Germans, psychology got distracted by a number of more superficial treatments like behaviorism and the various humanistic talk therapies so popular in the U.S. Today, or they got lost in the Siberia of psychotropic drugs that is modern psychiatry.
Most of the world lives under the illusion that the human psyche, like the human genome, is still being mapped. This is not true. Norberto Keppe's science of psychosociopathology has completed the study of the human psyche in a substantial way, and that's what we're going look at today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. My guest will be Dr. Cláudia Pacheco, the vice president of Keppe's International Society of Analytical Trilogy here in São Paulo, Brazil.
Cláudia, I've noticed that many people are very casual about the pressing situation on earth today, particularly environmentally, but also economically in the area of human rights, education, food. Well, everything's in crisis, actually. But my feeling is that many are focused outward for solutions. We need new laws, new presidents, activism to protest and save forests, etc. But we had a comment recently from a podcast listener who said that he was very interested in going to the origin of America's and his own psychosis neuroses and seeing how he may be contributing in any way with self-destruction personally and globally.
And that, of course, This is very, very central to Dr. Keppe's philosophy. How would you see all this in terms of Keppe's work, Cláudia? What is the role that human beings are playing in destroying the planet?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: I think, Richard, that this question that your listener made is very important. And I remember a client that I was attending today. And she went to the doctor to check how was her syndrome going.
She has a near problem. It's a syndrome when the person starts to get depth. But with analysis, the syndrome not only stopped developing, but it regressed. So the doctors told her, now you are a healthy person. You don't need anymore to take any medicines now. You don't even have to come back here, only if you start again with the symptoms, then you get back to me.
But if not, take back your normal life, you are a healthy woman. And she said this morning she woke up with a heavy heart, like a heavy feeling, and she was anxious, and as if she was expecting something different from the doctor. She was a kind of expecting the doctor to tell her she was not okay, she had to continue with her worries, and that the syndrome was developing.
So the most difficult aspect in this woman's analysis is for her to understand or to even suspect that she has an inner life that she's not aware of. That consciously she states, I want to be healthy. I want to be happy. I want to raise my child. I want to be a healthy woman. This is what she thinks rationally, consciously. But deep down there is an inversion And that kept me discovered.
And this inversion is present in all of us. And it's like a drive, an impulse that take us, lead us to the opposite most of the time of what we think. So if I think I want to be happy, deep down I have an inverted impulse that destroys my happiness, that is against, is suspicious, is afraid of life and happiness.
Richard: This is very interesting because this is not something that we're conscious of in our mind.
We don't wake up in the morning and go, let's see, how can I destroy the planet and my life today? It's not like that.
Cláudia: It's not.
Richard: And so Keppe has discovered something really hidden in the human being.
Cláudia: Really, really hidden. I'll give another example. Another patient, she's in a severe depressive state. And she's struggling with many practical aspects of her life. She's a psychotherapist, by the way.
And she's a Christian, by the way. Now she's in a state that she lost her health. She lost her money. She's plenty of debts and she came to me saying what can I do, I'm going to the psychiatrist, I'm taking pills, I'm going to the doctor, and all of them say it's emotional, you don't have anything that would justify your syndromes. And she's weak and she vomits every day and she feels pain and she feels insecure, she has panic attacks.
And she says, but I want to get better. I accept life. I love God. I want money. I find money as a good thing, a necessary thing. Money is something that comes from God, is a gift. And then I tell her, look, you are a psychotherapist. The psychopathology or the science is meant to show that we have a split inner self. We think in one way.
We are rational human beings. We know what is the best for us. We know what is good for life and for ourselves. We know everything I get from life is good, but deep down there is this split. Schizophrenia comes from the schizoid attitude, which is split, division. And all of us have this split, this division inside of ourselves. And this can be more serious, less serious, have more symptoms in one direction or another, but all of us have this division.
This
Richard: is the great thing that Keppe has discovered then, Cláudia, this, what you're calling now a split, a division.
Cláudia: Yes, a split between reason, consciousness, thought, and our emotional life. Split between feeling and thinking. And, you know, Johns, this is not something instinctive, natural. This is coming from our inverted will. This is a metaphysical problem because we want the best consciously. Even criminals, they say they want the best for their children.
Even criminals, they don't admit they are criminals. So consciously, they always justify what they do. Some of them kill people thinking that they are doing the best for society. They have a rational, intellectual explanation for that. But deep down, there is this inverted emotional life that we do not allow to be conscious. So we can many times feel that if we diminish the censorship.
We can, and I do see many of your listeners starting to admit, even openly to you, that they have sometimes sexual perverse habits or drugs. Addictions. Or some are kleptomaniac. Some are addicted to aggression. And they don't know why they do that. They want to be different, consciously. But deep down, this gives them tremendous pleasure. And this pleasure, they can't give up.
Richard: Even though they know rashly that it's wrong, they have some inner drive to have this. Yeah. Keppe says it this way, Cláudia. He says, the cause of all difficulties we suffer resides in the principal conduct of envy. Yeah. Which leads mankind to live in an inverted manner and which now must be rapidly conscientized to prevent the terrible destruction of our civilization today.
How did Keppe get to this? Yeah. How did he arrive at this place?
Cláudia: Well, he always dealt with neurotic, psychotic, or organic ill patients. And he attended thousands of them. In the hospital of the University of São Paulo, in his private clinic, in the United States, in Europe, in Brazil. So during all these years of practice, Keppe got a lot of experience coming from science.
It's experimental. So what he noticed in his patients, and he was always having as a basis, because all science has a philosophical basis, has a philosophy behind it. And Keppe had these important studies in metaphysics and even theological studies. But he based most of his theories in science, but science with the right philosophy behind it. So through the metaphysical principles, he understood that human beings are by origin good, beautiful, and truthful.
By origin or by nature. There is not such a thing as a being which is not good. Evil is the absence of good. Sickness is the absence of health. Pain is the absence of well-being.
Richard: Or the destruction of those things.
Cláudia: Or destruction. So what is wrong in us then? If there are no instincts of death, as Freud said. So what would be wrong in us?
So Keppe discovered that there is one thing that is really wrong in us, and this is our will. Our will has a flaw in it. We wish, we desire evil things for us and for other people, but we censor this consciousness. So generally a psychotic person or a neurotic one, he stops everything that is good or he attacks everything and everybody that is good for them.
They fight with their parents, with their teachers, with their husbands, wives, children, they destroy what they like the most, and so they destroy their health. They don't want to study, they don't want to develop, they stop working. So the problem with the sick person is not that they reject what is not good. It's not that they are rejecting what is an addiction or a bad behavior.
A sick person is that one who rejects, who destroy something that is good.
Richard: But Cláudia, this inverted will is not just in the psychotics, right?
Cláudia: Right. It's present in
Richard: all of us in our psychogenetics. This is the thing I've noticed, I think, is that people have the tendency to think that, well, I'm pretty normal. I don't have those kind of things that you're talking about.
And the really crazy ones are the ones in power or the people who run corporations or those other people out there. But what Keppe has discovered is that this sickness is inside every human being, and this is what we need to see.
Cláudia: Yeah, this is verifiable in science, in experimentation. Children are born with that. Melanie Klein spoke about the psychotic nucleus of the baby since they are born.
A baby manifests hate, paranoia, insecurity, even sometimes against their mother, mostly against their mother. As she said, the feeding breast of the mother. And she developed a beautiful, wonderful work about envy and gratitude. She wrote a book about that and saying that small babies, they already manifest envy towards the breast of the mother, the goodness of the mother. They are paranoid because they depend on the good of their mother.
So since we are small babies, we understand that goodness comes from other sources than from ourselves. We depend on goodness. We depend on our parents. We depend on the breast of the mother. We depend on life. We depend on God. We depend on anything or everything that is good, energy, life, that is coming from other sources than ourselves.
Richard: Now, you said we're born with this even as babies, but what does this say about our good, beautiful, and truthful essence then?
Cláudia: Yes, our good, beautiful, and truthful essence, like it has a flaw in it. It has a decay, which is this inverted will, this envy, this suspicion towards life, towards God, towards what is good, and this Keppe calls universal envy. It's not only towards our parents. It's not only towards the breast of the mother. It's not only towards one person. It has very little to do with the envy of penis, as some Freudians believe.
But it is a general, an universal envy, which is towards every good, beautiful and truthful thing or life or God. Because we, in front of this infinite beauty, goodness and truth, we feel so insecure, we feel so like a grain of sand. And so to accept, to resonate with life and to be good, beautiful, and truthful as we were created, we must see this opposition, this suspicion, this retraction.
We do not resonate with life anymore as we did before. And this is our inversion, inversion in the will. And it's caused by this theomania or this envy, universal envy, this opposition in admitting that we are dependent on this infinite creator and infinite love, beauty, and truth, which has nothing to do with our choices.
Richard: This is very beautiful. Let's make a link now, Cláudia, between this inner split inside the human being, this separation from the truth of ourselves, this desire even to destroy what we see as good, beautiful, and truthful around us and in us.
Let's make a link now between this and society at large. How are we seeing this split in society? For
Cláudia: instance, Jones, we think that we are stronger than nature, and Americans have this idea that they have to dominate to conquer nature, to dominate nature, and not to resonate with nature, to live in accordance with life. We want to build life according to our deliriums, to our ideas, to our theories, to our choices that are most of the time linked to our narcissistic thoughts, egotistic thoughts, theomaniac thoughts.
I want to control life, the facts of life, to control them and to make them serve me and my own interests. And I don't want to perceive that if I want to get the best of life and the best of myself, I need to resonate with all this huge, powerful universal laws, natural laws. So instead of finding non-polluting means, for instance, to have energy, free energy, clean energy, we instead are destroying.
And why? Because we want to control energy. People want to have these multinational companies making profits out of energy. The medical doctors, they don't want to accept that health is a gift of nature, that the being, the human being has all the means in its own body and own inner self to be healthy and to heal himself. No, they want to be the healers, the gods of the life, so they make surgeries, They cut off organs.
They intoxicate them with pharmaceutical elements that are going to create dozens of side effects. And the third cause of death in humanity are iatrogenic diseases, which are linked to surgeries.
Richard: Hospital care. Hospital care.
Cláudia: Keppe
Richard: says in one of his new books. Original sin was the consequence of man's desire to be useless and to also make useless everything that exists. Thus, man rejects this paradise for which he was created, polluting the air, seas, and earth, destroying the forests, rivers, and animals, trying however he can to eliminate any trace of divine creation.
Look at that in terms of Keppe's work now. Do
Cláudia: you see the competition?
Richard: Yes, I do.
Cláudia: Richard, do you see that man competes with God? Yes. He wants to be even bigger than God. Right. And this is found in the most important psychopathologists in history. The German psychopathologists, some of the Austrian, they discovered that megalomania and arrogance were present in the severe cases of paranoia, schizophrenia, or the sick people.
Now, Keppe, in his clinical experience, noticed that megalomania, as he calls it, theomania, is present in all human beings. And this is directly a confirmation of the scriptures. So, what is wrong in us? This psychogenetic flaw in our will, this flaw in the will, distortion. This is what religious people call original sin, which is present in all of us. We compete with God.
And if we don't want to see this theomania, this competition, we don't get back to who we really are. We are divine creatures. And by denying our creator, denying the first source of who we are, the life in itself, we are denying our own essence.
Richard: Yeah, there's no way out of that.
Cláudia: No way. So it's like a child that is so envious, so competitive against his father or his mother that he wants to do everything in the opposite, to be different, to compete in a bad sense.
We don't identify with God. We don't want to be like him, to think like him, to behave like him, using the maximum, the most of our essence. But because of this envy and this competition, we want to be different. We want to be totally against. So if my father is this way, I want to be the opposite. I want to be my way.
And what is this my way? This my way is destruction because we cannot be another being than who we are.
Richard: But Cláudia, how do we treat this then? We have these problems inside us. We see them reflected in the society. What do we do or what are you doing to help us treat this?
Cláudia: Jones, the first thing, humanity, common people, neurotic normal people, as we say, because all of us are neurotic, you know.
So we, as people, the more conscious ones, should understand that there is a science. The science is psychosociopathology, the science that studies the inner man and its effect on society and nature. There is a science, a modern science, which is the most important science. And this science should be taught. This science should be known. This science should be understood by every human being, because our mind is the best motor, the best generator of energy, the best healer, the best everything in ourselves.
But we don't know how to deal with this.
We have this saying, understand yourself or you're going to be destroyed by your inner life, which is not known. Everything that you don't know inside of you will destroy you, will destroy us, will destroy our planet. So there is this science and we need fast to teach people about that. People need to understand, people need to study in order to help themselves and to reverse this inverted way humanity is following, which is leading us to self-annihilation.
We need people that will become agents of transformation to help to save humanity and the planet. Because now we discovered technical means to destroy the planet very fast. We are destroying the planet with all these technical devices and the pseudo agriculture, the pseudo medical sciences, the pseudo physics, the pseudo, all pseudo. Because they are leading to an inverted intention, and people are not aware.
So every scientist has the obligation, the duty to know himself innerly in order to see his true intentions when he creates a theory or a legislative representative. He must understand his pathology in order to understand his true deep intentions when he creates laws for the people. A politician must know his pathology. A president of a country should do analysis and know what are the hidden intentions he has when he decides things in the name of the people.
When he declares a war against another country in the name of his people. It's an obligation for us to know ourselves, to know our errors, our bad intentions, which are all unconscientized, most of them. And this leads us. What leads us is what we don't know in ourselves. This is the problem.
Richard: But now, with Keppe's science, we can know ourselves. Finally, as always, I invite your comments and questions.
Rich at richjonesvoice.com. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Talk to you next week.
