Richard Lloyd Jones: We're conditioned to it now. We're stressed because of work. We're shy because our family's shy. We're sick because there's a nasty flu bug going around. We vaccinate. We medicate. We pop vitamins and supplements to pump up our besieged immune systems. We're burned out and fed up because of what's going on outside. Only one thing we forgot. The real problem is inside. Today I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head the inner game of health.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Well this is a subject we can speak with some authority on here at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. Dr. Norberto Keppe, whose work inspires and forms the basis of our podcast, has been working with psychosomatic illness for decades. He formed the first psychosomatic clinic in Latin America at the Hospital das Clínicas, part of the medical school at the University of São Paulo way back in the 50s.
Here's how it had worked back then. The patients, the medical doctors couldn't get anywhere with, the hopeless cases they'd send to that new guy in that new psycho-so-whats-you-ma-call-it department. Then maybe they'd roll their eyes and wink at each other knowingly. What chance did this young upstart Keppe have, they'd suggest smugly, when the greatest medical scientists of the time, like them, couldn't even get to the bottom of the problem?
But more than a few times they'd have to eat their tongue suppressors when their patients, the hopeless cases, would come back with stories of miracle cures and spontaneous remissions. All this through the process of psychoanalysis that Keppe was developing. He refined his studies with work in deep psychology in Vienna with Viktor Frankl, Igor Karuso, and Newt Baumgarten, and his work deepened profoundly with his discovery of inversion in the late 70s.
This was a psychological discovery that gave Keppe a glimpse of a fundamental problem inside the human being that caused almost all his physical, mental, and even social problems. Let me be sure to underline this. Keppe's discovery of our psychological inversion has connected all the dots of the map of the human psyche. With this Kepien understanding, we can treat all disease, all relationship problems, all self-sabotaging behavior, even problems at the economic and political levels, which were before this seen as totally disconnected from the sphere of psychology.
Norberto Kepie's Analytical Trilogy is a unified science, as no science before it has ever been. Join us in San Diego September 24th to 27th, 2008 to get the overview of Keppe's comprehensive science as it's applied in many areas of human endeavor. You can get information on that on our website, www.wcatus.org. And, of course, you can write me anytime, rich at richjonesvoice.com. Dr.
Marcia Sgrinhelli is a trilogical dentist who's been working with Keppe for 20 years. She's the author of two books on psychosomatic dentistry. She applies his therapeutic discoveries in her thriving dental practice here in São Paulo and is closely involved with the Trilogical Psychosomatic Department here, coordinated by Keppe's close associate, Dr. Cláudia Pacheco. Marcia joins
Marcia Sgrinhelli: me today.
Richard: Marcia, in all of his work, Dr.
Keppe is talking about the influence of our pathology on our health. He means our psychopathology. He also talks about the sociopathology, which is a result of the way human beings think and act in the world. So this pathology, these difficulties, problems we have with our megalomania or our envy or our aggression or any kind of arrogance, anything like that that we have, this has an enormous impact on our health and even on our DNA.
So I thought maybe we could start with that. What is the process that Dr. Keppe is talking about here? How does this actually work from your perspective?
Marcia: Keppe has been developing his work in psychosomatic medicine since 1960. He brought to us the comprehension of how our psychological life, our emotions, ideas, intentions, how everything works And it's totally linked with our health or the illness that we have usually.
And so, some research, they show us this link with our emotions and our hormonal and neuro-hormonal system. And they show if a person is all the time angry or envious, this is a total link with our metabolic system. We can stop our metabolic system through these bad emotions. Last
Richard: night in our group analysis session, we had an example of what you're talking about.
A young man was talking about how he had seen his blood cells as seen through what they call a dark field microscope. What is this? What is a dark field microscope? It's a special microscope designed to see what?
Marcia: This is a microscope where you can see the live blood. So you take a blood sample and you see all the cells that we have.
But they are alive and this is very important because this test that we do here in our work with psychosomatic medicine, we can see the link between our emotions and the attitudes that the person has and what happens in our physical life. And so, this man that you were giving the example, he's an aggressive man and he lives in fantasies. And the red blood cells, they are totally deformed.
Because in young people, they have like a round red blood cell. And he had deformed, it's missing a part. So
Richard: this man who has had a lot of problems in his life with being aggressive, being arrogant, imposing himself, it was showing up in his blood cells, his red blood cells were showing a deformed shape. This is proving what for us? What is this showing us?
Marcia: Show that our attitudes, our ideas, they make some changes in our bodies, totally linked. And so we can say that we feel and we think with all the cells in our body. And so it's a relation between what we think, what we feel, and what happens in our body.
Richard: Let me ask you a question to go deeper into this then. What are the other physical effects that you are seeing?
Dr. Marcia is working a lot with Dr. Cláudia and the psychosomatic clinic here at Dr. Keppe's clinic. What are the other actual physical effects that you're finding that occur in the body as a result of this aggression or this envy we might have, this inversion that Dr. Keppe has discovered?
Marcia: We can give examples with people who have very bad emotions. The person is too depressed or wants to die, I have feelings of death, and this sends information for the cells of the body, and the person can develop diseases.
Richard: Let's talk about this in some smaller examples, because you work as a dentist. You must see this all the time, that in the person's mouth, it shows the effects of the psychopathology that the person has. Give some examples of that.
Marcia: Yes, one very nice example that we can see is the saliva flow, because saliva is totally linked with our nervous system. If the person stays angry all the time, angry about the reality, about consciousness, the mouth became very dry and the person can have a lot of cavities, canker sores and things like that.
In the other hand if the person stays all the time with fear and panic situations, what happens? We have a lot of saliva, the person can have a lot of saliva But it's very diluted saliva. And there can appear a lot of calculus and tartars and inflammation in the gums. But on the other hand, if the person is more one attitude of love and reason, and even the consciousness of the fear and the anger, because we are not perfect, we are not loving all the time.
But only the consciousness of the... Fear and the angry makes the body and the salivation to become normal.
Richard: We're just finishing a new book now called The ABCs of the New Physics. It's a study guide to understanding Dr. Keppe's work in the new physics because that book is way over our head for most of us who've never studied science. And in this book, Alexandre Frascari, who's been working with you in the psychosomatic clinic, says that in diseases that have a genetic component, like diabetes for example, it's common for them to manifest after the person has a very strong emotion, like when a close friend or family member dies.
This shows that our genes manifest through the energy that our feelings and thoughts put through our bodies. Boy, help us to understand that a bit more. That is very different from the way our medical profession sees these kinds of physical
Marcia: situations. And so through our dna they they work like an antenna. They catch all the emotions all the feelings that we feel and all the energy from reality.
If we have bad emotions bad thoughts we have we make a pact with these bad energies.
Richard: A pact, like an agreement, you're saying. We make like an agreement with these negative energies if we have negative thoughts ourselves.
Marcia: Yes, it's like if we open a channel to bad energies in our body also. And when we do that, we deform all the good energy in our bodies.
And so we became sick. If we consciousness because consciousness is the only thing that can bring you back to the good emotions. Because through consciousness we see why I'm angry why I have these bad thoughts and bad intentions and intentions with my life why I want to die. So you see this you can stop. And you can have a connection with good energies again, because it's the energy that forms everything, forms our body, forms our soul.
It's an energy that comes from God.
Richard: This is very important in Dr. Keppe's work, that if we begin to become conscious, and especially conscious, not just of our beautiful, good, true essence, but the attitudes we have against that. It's very important to become conscious of those things, right? And this seems like a counterintuitive, why would I want to know about my arrogance and my envy?
But what you're suggesting is that when we do bring that consciousness to our difficulties, our problems, we immediately make contact with this more healthy, essential energy, right? Is this how the process works?
Marcia: Yes, and the vital energy is the essential energy. The energy that we need to everything works very well because we have a inner pharmacy. We have all the substance that we need to live well.
We have hormones we have natural analgesics we have everything in our bodies. And why is this not working very well to our health when we stop these bad attitudes, we conscientize these bad attitudes, came this energy. Because, for example, in the case of the cancer, we have a mechanism in our body that is called gene suppressor of tumors. Gene suppressor of
Richard: tumors or gene tumor suppressor?
Marcia: Yes, this is a mechanism because everybody has a lot of cancer cells in the body. And what's happened when the body perceives that one cell has a change in the energy and there is danger self for the body. These genes they go there and there's a mechanism that they call apoptosis and they destroy these cells that is danger for the body. So we have immunological system working all the time to save us from all kinds of diseases.
If a tooth decay has. There's an immunological system that is working to prevent this. So we have natural killers that are white blood cells that go and try to contain the development of tumors. We have many mechanisms, natural mechanisms. Why
Richard: we're not using them, what's happening that we're breaking down, because our body actually should live much, much longer. There are many people talking about this now in the world, Marcy, but nobody's really talking about it at the depth that Dr.
Keppe is. We're sort of seeing it at a superficial level that our emotions control, etc. But Dr. Keppe has seen something much deeper that he says in his book, The New Physics, without a doubt, there's a defect in the double helix of the DNA, which the individual must carry throughout his life. We are inverted from the start. For example, a person's initial desires are selfish, and only after much reflection might one abandon one's egocentric attitude and serve the well-being of others.
A person feels as if he must act for his own benefit, even if this sacrifices the life of others. It's as if this behavior were imprinted in our genes, he says, because of a low level of energy that can no longer allow us to use the entire scope of our DNA the way we should. Can you help us to understand that a bit more?
It's a big statement.
Marcia: Every elixir of the DNA in our cells is like an antenna. If we make a pact with negative suggestions, feelings, thoughts, and because of this inversion, we inverted our DNA also. And so we put a lot of garbage. Like the bad feelings and bad thoughts that we have, our DNA is full of this garbage. Are
Richard: you suggesting then, Marcia, that this 97% or whatever it is of our genetic material that their scientists are reading as garbage now, there's a reason for this?
It shouldn't be like that?
Marcia: Yes, shouldn't be like that. The DNA has the vital energy and should be corrected DNA. So we have just 3% of DNA that is corrected.
Richard: So give us some practical examples, if you can think of any, from our clinic now, Marcia, because if we're talking about the DNA being distorted because of our psychopathology, then there must be some cases in our clinic where through psychoanalysis, through conscientizing these pathological elements in ourselves, we must be able to have quite dramatic health reversals.
Can you give us some examples of this?
Marcia: Yes, we treat here through analysis, just through conscientization, interiorization. We treat all diseases and many people who have diabetes, high blood pressure, allergies. And even people who are HIV positive, they can live without problems. They can live well. And they don't have to move from the city that they live in. They don't have to change work.
This proves that there is something inside the person that determines all the diseases.
Richard: We have a friend of ours who was developing symptoms of multiple sclerosis, and she was entering the medical profession, and she got very scared because they said, listen, you're having multiple sclerosis. If you don't treat this in a medical way, you're going to be in a wheelchair, your whole quality of life is going to be deteriorating from here on in, and she got afraid.
But the fortunate thing was she's doing analysis with Dr. Keppe. And just through psychoanalysis, she was able to arrest those symptoms and now lives a completely normal life with no symptoms of MS at all.
Marcia: Here in our clinic, every day we have examples of people that do analysis, conscientizing the bad emotions, the bad feelings, and they get better of the diseases. But I think that's important that Dr.
Keppe was the first here in Brazil to bring the psychosomatic medicine that he brought from Austria. I did a formation with Igor Caruso, Vitor Franco, but now we are exporting this science that Dr. Keppe developed for the world. And so now we can see many books and many examples of people who are trying to see this. I saw like an interview of a woman that has fibromyalgia.
And she said that this is the disease of holding on emotions.
Richard: Holding on to their emotions, bad emotions, right? I'm assuming. Yes. That they're sort of holding, they're keeping, this kind of thing is like working away inside them because they don't deal with it in some way.
Marcia: And it's very important because even if we don't perceive it, this is very important because those bad emotions, they are inconscientized.
Even if we don't perceive it, this is acting in our body.
Richard: And it's not a matter of releasing these emotions. A lot of people think that in the world today. I have this anger, so I need to get a tennis racket and I need to pound this pillow or I need to hit this blow-up doll of my boss or something. I have to pound it in order to get these emotions out.
That's not what you're talking about.
Marcia: No, it's not. If we do this, it gets worse. We have to see and solve this through consciousness. We have to see why I am angry about my friend. What this friend is showing to me that I don't want to see in myself.
Richard: Can I give you an example? This is the process of interiorization that Dr.
Keppe talks a lot about, and it's a brilliant discovery and development in psychopathology. These things that bother us on the outside that we get irritated with, that we're connected with, that we're frustrated by. This is because it has some relationship to us inside. And this is hard for us to understand, but somewhere we do that. So let me give an example from my classroom.
I had a student, I was talking about this, what are your pet peeves, what are the little things that irritate you? And he said, you know, I hate it when people cut in front of me in traffic. Many people in São Paulo say that because we have formidable traffic here. So he said, when people cut in front of me in traffic, ooh, I get irritated.
And I said, but why? What is it about that that irritates you? And he said, because they're getting there before me. And I said, so you see an advantage in this person cutting in front. Somewhere you feel that this is an advantage that he has that you don't have. And that's what you're irritated by, because you see in his aggressive behavior, you see an advantage.
And he said, well, no, not exactly like that. I just left it. But a few weeks later, a bunch of us from this class were in a restaurant, and the pizza was late coming. Well, you know, this student got very, very irritated and angry, and he stood up and he made a big production. Say, hey, come on, let's get the pizza coming here.
What's the matter with you? And got very, very irritated. Then he sat down very pleased, and he said, now you're going to see the pizza coming quickly. And I said, you see, do you see that you think that being aggressive brings an advantage in society? And so this is why he's irritated when he sees somebody cutting in front because he thinks that person has an advantage that he doesn't have.
But somebody who does something unethical or aggressive does not have an advantage. It may appear to be an advantage on the surface, but actually that person is doing a lot of damage inside them, aren't they? It seems then that these attitudes that we have that are against our true good and beautiful essence, that these are actually causing our DNA to function very, very improperly, causing us to create stop signals in our genes, in our immune system that should be fighting these things.
It's causing lots of problems. That must mean, then, that our attitude against life can even lead to our death.
Marcia: Yes, I can give an example. We can say that if you want to live more and more healthy, we have to give more attention to our inner life because the vital energy comes from the interior of the human being. And we shouldn't die so early.
Some people think, ah, 80, I am 80 years old, I had a long life. But it is not true. One thing happens in the DNA. In the end of the DNA, we have some parts that we call telomerase.
Richard: Telomerase, this is a word I don't know at all. So what is this?
Marcia: It's the end of DNA. And this is getting shorter and shorter and shorter.
When the cell divides, these telomeres, they get shorter and shorter. And what's happened? This is the old process. We are shortening our DNA. And so we get sick, we get old.
Richard: It shouldn't happen that way then. It
Marcia: shouldn't happen like this. This is because of free radicals that are having our bodies, because our attitudes that we have, we are getting old.
Richard: And we shouldn't be doing this.
I remember Cesar Soós talking about this one time. He explained it this way, that the first gland that forms in the human fetus, before the heart, before the sexual organs, before the brain, is the pineal gland. That's interesting because the pineal gland is linked in many spiritual practices with this essential energy field, which shows we are first divine. We are first this creation from something greater.
That's the first thing that happens in us. Before our sexual organs, before our physical, before our heart, before our feelings, before our brain, before our mind, our thoughts, we are first this link with essential energy. But what was interesting about what Cesar was saying was that the pineal gland is responsible for creating melatonin. Yes. And melatonin is an enormous fighter in the immune system.
It kills free radicals particularly. But it's so interesting because we stop producing large quantities of melatonin from the time we're about 13 or 14. Yes. The production of melatonin just drops drastically until our 40s or
Marcia: 50s, right? And the pineal gland calcifies very, very early in our life.
Richard: Do scientists know why this happens?
Marcia: Scientists, they just see genetics like a physical and chemical process.
Richard: Like a natural process.
Marcia: Yes, they are very organicists, the scientists. They don't see the energetical field that is behind our DNA, our genetics.
Richard: But what struck me when Cesar was talking about this was, if this is true, this is what's happening, and all the evidence suggests that's exactly what's happening, it means that we are cutting, psychologically speaking, spiritually speaking, we're cutting ourselves away from this essential energy that maintains us.
This is where the psychopathology enters and becomes a theological, philosophical perspective, which is the trilogy of Dr. Keppe's work, the trilogy of theology, philosophy, and science. We are cutting our link with this essential energy because of our psychopathology. Boy, that is really fascinating. So we're making ourselves get old and die because of this psychopathology that we don't want to see. But if we did see it, if we conscientized it, as you suggested, we would immediately have more access to this essential energy that would make us live longer, be younger, be more happy, more healthy.
Marcia: We can give an example about stem cells because we have stem cells in our body. We have in the cornea, we have in the medulla, we have this. And so they want to take those cells and put in laboratory and they do seeds that don't grow if you put in the ground, doesn't grow. If they make organs in the laboratory, they die very quickly.
They get old very quickly. They cannot use. And so why our stem cells are not working properly? Why? Because we don't get this energy, this essential energy. This should be done in ourselves. We have to do, even in psychological life and in the social life, we have to change things. Even in nature, in the pollution, everything prevents us. To catch this essential energy, and the things are not working properly.
Richard: Cláudia Pacheco says in this book we're creating now, The ABCs of the New Physics, she says, It seems that our inverted thoughts or feelings are evidence of a corresponding attitude of opposing something. We can think of this as something contrary to the correct thinking or feeling. What this means is that the attitude of opposition could cause an inverted reading of this essential energy and a subsequent inversion in the physical DNA in our bodies.
It could also cause our bodies to produce different chemicals or substances. That summarizes everything, doesn't it?
Marcia: And this can explain in a certain way miracles. Why a person gets cured? Because it's a link with a vital energy, a pure energy. They have this link with essential energy. And all the cells, the immunological system start to work to cure.
Richard: It's a fascinating process and a hopeful diagnosis.
The remedy for our most serious physical, mental and social health problems is already here between our ears. Keppe's Analytical Trilogy gives us that. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
