Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are indeed living in potentially transformative times. And I only say potentially because it remains to be seen if humankind will do what it takes to reverse the downward cycle we've been in for millennia. I know this sounds like heresy to those conditioned to hearing about the progress of modern society.
But I am, of course, talking about a decay at a level much more profound than technological. Because really, what benefit is it to us to be able to twitter what we had for breakfast if the air is poisonous and the social injustice continues unabated. All our vaunted progress is moving us further and further away from a better society, not closer. And this is happening because of an inverted worldview inside the mass of humanity.
This inversion is, of course, not perceived by us. And educating human beings of this provides the reason for our show and underscores the importance of Norberto Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy, which provides the base for what we do when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Inversion, the missing link in human consciousness, today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are now streaming on our own radio network, the Stop Radio Network, where we are featuring our two programs that originate from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy.
That's Healing Through Consciousness, our call-in psychological advice show, and, of course, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. But we'll be expanding our programming very soon to include a new show from our dear friend Susan Berkley. Called The Conscious Company. That's coming very shortly on our stop radio network, as well as programs from soulmates Bob Butler and Monene Daly-Hart. Be listening for that. Will Lajeunesse has been working very hard every day to program our station with the requisite station breaks, the IDs and promos, and even some beautiful musical interludes.
So I think you're going to like the sound of the station as it streams to you, to your desktop or portable device. In this sense, our technology is wonderful and gives us the chance to reach out to you across the waters and in countries around the world. For this, I'm very grateful. And I encourage you to spread our show and network out to more and more people.
I don't know of anywhere else on the planet where conversations like this are being heard, so this is a good opportunity for you to invite like-minded souls to join us. Our programs are, of course, still individually downloadable through iTunes.
You can like us on our Facebook page, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head Facebook page, and join the conversation there as well. Well, today we are diving into a psychological concept that is monumental in what it brings to human consciousness. It wasn't all that long ago, in cosmic terms anyway, that Freud revolutionized how we saw the human being.
Freud's discovery that behind the good face that we put forward lay a vast and tangled web of deceit and cunning and bad intentions. And this shadowy world was virtually unknown to us. That had a profound impact on human society, from fertilizing the development of public relations as a means to control the now frightening masses to stimulating the terrible mind-control experiments of the 50s and 60s that continue up to now.
So these psychological developments are not just concepts a few academics write about and teach to pimply-faced university students. They are ideas that embed themselves in the collective consciousness of humankind, which then get applied in all areas of human endeavor. And if the people studying these ideas and implementing them are too pathological as they are, then they use this knowledge to further entrench themselves in power and exploit the 99% even more.
So when Dr. Keppe made his seminal discovery of inversion in the 1970s, 70s, there was an opening for an extraordinary development in the understanding of the human being. Because where Freud believed that our bad intentions and malicious desires were natural and therefore impossible to fully overcome, Keppe has discovered that they are more choices we make for evil. And why would we do that?
Because we have an inverted idea that somehow we will get an advantage from being aggressive or being arrogant. Our desire to do things that are not good can now be treated through a psychological process Keppe calls conscientization, becoming conscious of our deep inverted desires. And his work here offers us great hope that we can treat our problems at their source and actually begin to control them.
This hope and improved scientific view has been stopped by the academic and economic power structure every chance they get because it brings power to the individual linked to goodness, truth, and beauty. Can't have that, they say. So they squash it every chance they get and deprive the people of real scientific and cultural advancement. This is what we are trying to undo on our program every week.
So inversion is the subject of our show today. Cláudia Baron-Harper-Sheiko joins me in just a moment as Thinking with Somebody Else's Head continues on the stop radio network
you're listening to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the stop radio network our program is based on the science of Analytical Trilogy if you're interested in learning more you'll find information about books tv shows and any upcoming congresses or teleglasses on our site at healing through consciousness.com Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: Welcome to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. We are streaming, and very proud to be so, on our new radio network, the Stop Radio Network. It's very, you can hear all of our programs. We're streaming 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. How many seconds is, I don't know, but a lot of time. And all of our programs are there, including the old programs we did, Cláudia Baranhar-Pasheko called Healing Through Consciousness.
You don't even remember those shows, do you? I remember. Okay, okay. Where Cláudia was
taking calls from people and helping
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: them with psychoanalysis, our trilogical psychological advice show. I have to find out a way to
Richard: do this again. I still want to do that. And I've been putting it out to our listeners, saying that if you are interested in this kind of help from Cláudia Baranhar-Pasheko, an expert in
Cláudia: trilogical psychoanalysis, Just send me an email, and we'll set it up through Skype.
We can do that relatively simply, as long as we can get the right times together. Or they can send their questions, and I'll answer. Or you can record it. The only difficulty is not having a dialogue, a live
Richard: dialogue.
Cláudia: But I can try to be of help if they send any questions
Richard: or issues.
Cláudia: Joneshealing at
Richard: gmail.com. And that would be wonderful for you to avail yourself of that service because this kind of psychoanalysis goes very deep and really does try to help us with the root cause of the problems that we face every
Cláudia: day.
Jones, you must use your stop email. Ah.
Richard: Do I have this already?
Yeah? Yeah.
Do
Richard: we have it set up already?
Cláudia: Yes, you just ask Paloma to send you the instructions
Richard: to use it. Okay.
Cláudia: Yeah, instead of Gmail.
Richard: Yeah. Gmail's totally unprofessional, isn't it? It's Google garbage. Well, but
Cláudia: it's being helpful anyway.
Richard: Yeah, well, people are writing to me anyway. I was doing a class last week, and I'm going to do something in our post-graduation class on this tonight, looking at the death of Whitney Houston and using that as a way to try to understand how we are self-destructive. Because she does what we all do, but she does it in like public, in sort of grand style, as artists often do, to look at our self-destructive habits, attitudes, behaviors.
And you know what I've discovered, Cláudia? This is no surprise to you, I'm sure, but people do resist seeing this in themselves. It's very easy to see in her or Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, the great Brazilian artists who've done this, but it's not easy to accept that we have self-destructive attitudes, habits, behaviors that we don't have too much consciousness of. Generally, we make excuses about them.
And so I wanted to sort of talk about that a little bit today. It relates very much to the theme we've been focused on. We were focused on last week about how the corruption of society is leading to corruption in politics, in the political sphere, spectrum.
Cláudia: You know, Richard, but people, it's difficult because in the majority of... People really don't see. It is an unconscious process, most of it.
It is really unconscious. The destructivity we carry in our psychogenetics, it's mostly unconscious for most of the people. So that's why you say we can see it very well in other people, but we don't see in ourselves. And I'll try to do like a short explanation. It's difficult to bring
Richard: this by radio without, well, short explanation, without any devices to... No whiteboards to draw
Cláudia: on, no people to
Richard: talk with.
Well, you can use me because I'm a classic unconscious person.
Cláudia: No, you're not anymore.
Richard: I'm not as unconscious.
Cláudia: You're not anymore. But everybody is, to some extent, and it's very important that we start being humble enough to admit we behave in negative ways, we behave in destructive manners without realizing it. Okay, so here we come with this perception and this psychological structure Keppe discovered that we have.
First of all, the concept Keppe has about the human being is that, essentially speaking, in our essence, in our psychological or psychophysical structure, we are, by nature, by origin, basically good, beautiful and truthful. But something went wrong in the past, in other generations, that we carry like a flaw in our psychogenetics. It's not working fine anymore because then we get sick physically, mentally, and we die.
Our structure, our physiological structure, is all set up to preserve life. All instincts are to preserve life. So it is, or there is something which went wrong and caused a like a flaw in our psychogenetic structure, so our
Richard: psychogenetics doesn't work as it should. Yes. And we see the world in a strange way, too. So,
Cláudia: before we start coming into the psychological level, I would like to bring also to your attention one of the main discoveries ever done by a scientist, which was Freud. And realized that behind studying the mental sickness and neuroses and disturbances, he realized that we are not really what we think with our intellectual life, what we reason.
We can have ethical principles, we can know what is good and what is truthful, we can know what is evil and what is bad, we know that, consciously we know that, even psychopaths know that. But Freud discovered that behind this, which he called an hypocritical mask, there was a world of feelings and instincts, as he put, instincts and desires that were not acceptable by our own rational life and by society, by the moral codes.
So Freud, like, he smelled that there was something important there. Something was not correct. Yeah, that people were not conscious of. It was really unconscious. But he saw human beings with naturally bent to aggression, destruction, dying, killing, because of this death instinct, as he called. So Keppe, later on, using this methodology of Freud, he saw that we are not, we don't have this blend between good and evil by nature.
All the instincts are good, but there is, yes, some flaws in a higher psychological level. As he put, we suffer from an inversion, we react upside down. So it's not an instinctive thing, but it is an inversion. It is, we have an upside down kind of perception many times.
Richard: And this doesn't come by nature. No,
Cláudia: it came with a flaw. And we have, we could call it in religion the original sin.
In such a way that we destroy ourselves unconsciously. We attack what we like and love the most, and we do this unconsciously. Or we could say, we see the consequences. We think, oh my God, why did I do that? Especially with people that I love the most. Especially people who are more humble. Especially against people who helped me. Especially people who want to, who try to help me and and to do good for me, uh, why children and adults are so much against parents, teachers, right?
And I think it gets
Richard: very confusing because you're speaking about this regret that we have after the fact. So it's like we feel this terrible regret and we say, even sometimes if we've done something very bad, I remember this as a teenager, I'll never drink again, which of course is a lie, right? So we feel the regret about the results. The intention is still what we
Cláudia: don't see very well, right?
Yes, because here Capi calls this schizophrenia, like this, um, is schizo, is schizoid, schizoid, yeah, it's schizoid. It's it's like a division, an inner division. So we think, we reason in a in a in one way, and but in our emotions, our feelings, which come in the basis of our lives, first come the dimension of the feeling, which is the right side of the brain.
The energies come from through the right side of the brain, they cross the the brain and they go to the left side of the brain.
Richard: This is the essential energy now that you're talking about that we receive, yes.
Cláudia: So that's how this mental or uh this the brain uh energies and and waves function. So if we have something wrong in the field of the feeling, the emotional, which is very much linked to the will, the desires.
They are more in this emotional level, more unconscious. And there is the flaw, and there is the choice to evil or to destruction. And then we try to reason or to cover up our choices. We explain, we create excuses, we justify, we say we'll
Richard: never do that again, and this is not me, I don't know why I did that, but... I never do this, this never happens to me.
Cláudia: Yes, a lot of denial. But we must say that in the feelings of emotions, the emotional life, we have this upside-down reaction. And here we must see the conception or the concept that Keppe has about evil and good. Evil is the absence of good. So evil is the denial, the destruction, or the absence of good. So this evil tendency is then to deny, to reject, to destroy, to withdraw, to disconnect.
It's a refusal, a resistance we have against what is good, beautiful, and truthful.
Richard: Not a natural thing at all. And that's very important to
Cláudia: say. This is not natural. This became like natural because it's in our genes. Everybody is born like this. And the religious people call this original sin. So everything that is like divine, we have the first reaction, like spontaneous, like automatic, is to reject.
And then we have to disinvert that reaction if we are ethical. We have to disinvert that reaction and put it in the right place and sometimes make an effort to accept what is good. Giving an example, what you just said about drinking, the tendency will be always feel attracted to drinking and to the alienation you have with it. But then you have to make an effort, a sacrifice, to disinvert your reaction and go to the natural way of being, which is not drinking.
And this
Richard: doesn't mean just to censor or say slap yourself on the wrist and this kind of stuff. It's it's deeper than that. All right, we need to understand a little bit more about this emotional reactive process that happens in the brain and inside ourselves, Cláudia, so we'll come back and do that in a minute. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Stop Radio Network.
I'm with Dr. Cláudia Bernhard. Pacheco talking about the pleasure to do evil. Sounds so strange, doesn't it? But we'll look at that more in light of Dr. Keppe's science of psycho-socio pathology. The sensation of inversion that we all have. We're back to talk about more of that in just a moment.
Originating from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil.
Richard: We are back Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. And when we start to talk about inversion, I can actually feel that my mind needs to disinvert to understand what you're saying.
It's a process that Dr. Keppe discovered and has been developing in his work since the late 70s and has made an enormous difference in the way psychoanalysis is conducted around the world. And so this idea that he has proposed here, this actual concept that happens inside the human being, is extremely important if we want to understand how the human being works and how we've constructed our society.
When you were talking about this emotion, the emotional part that we receive this energy, inspiration kind of from outside, and then in our emotions we have this kind of flaw, are you suggesting that we have the inversion that you're talking about, that this is more a problem emotionally than logically? Sure. Okay.
Cláudia: That's why it doesn't do any good to teach people how to reason because everybody knows how to reason.
The problem is not with the intellectual life. It is with the emotional life. And when we say evil, we say that we are saying that people are not really attracted to evil. People are attracted or feel pleasure, an emotional strange destructive pleasure, in denying goodness, in being away, apart from goodness. This is evil. So the destruction of health, the denial of love, when you feel that someone is expecting you to be good and kind and do good for him or for her.
And then you have this strange pleasure to say no, like children to their parents, a loving mother. Children are always taking pleasure in hurting their mothers and their fathers and their teachers. As long as the teacher or the person is kind and loving and humble, So then here comes this rejection, this despise, this even more the aggression against that person. But if the person is arrogant, is aggressive, then everybody respects, like the pathological powerful.
They are really enslaving everybody. They are exploiting. Everybody knows they are evil in terms of being dishonest, egotistic, narcissistic. Narcissistic, they think only about themselves and becoming rich, and everybody's like oh
Richard: admiring them and treating them very very fine. But if you have someone inside your house that is kind and loving, then you step on that person. This is the the almost the rule of things in life.
You see this constantly in your your psychoanalytical practice
Cláudia: and the the seeker, the more the person does this, so the psychotic do this a lot and they can't have a normal balanced life with anyone amongst their loving relationships. They end up by killing sometimes these people.
Richard: Dr. Keppe has written an extraordinary book which unfortunately is not available in English yet, called Liberation Through Knowledge.
I've been going through this book a little bit in preparation for a class I'm doing. And, wow, I don't have much contact with this book because it's in Portuguese. But he says some things in here about corruption that are just extraordinary, Cláudia. Maybe you can help us to understand this. He said that human beings, most human beings, feel an enormous pleasure in corrupting and ruining everything.
Cláudia: So here
Richard: comes this inversion. Yeah.
Cláudia: Because then...
Richard: We don't think of ourselves this way.
Cláudia: No, not at all. We think we are what we think. And that's why, as it is unconscious, Richard, as we don't realize what we do, who we are, what is the kind of energy we pass to people, what is the kind of feelings we pass to people, we show to others what we really feel.
And people get it. They get from, like, intuitively.
Richard: Little hits of intuition. Sure, we know.
Cláudia: Everybody knows. But I don't know. I think I am what I think I am and not that I'm something totally different. So that's why people should be so humble to hear, to listen to what other people have to tell about me because other people will see me.
They will have a perception about my behaviors and then it must be very helpful to, like in the group therapy, In the group therapy, people speak about one person and, okay, there can be projections. There can be inversions also, how people perceive each other. But there is most of the time a very realistic approach of what is the behavior of that individual.
But normally they never take in because they think this is not the way I think, this is not the way I do, this is not my intention, this is not my goal, this is not me. And it is so it's
Richard: a surprise to everybody.
Cláudia: Being inverted, being upside down, is a synonym of being unconscious. Unconsciousness is inversion, is the same, is the same.
So
Richard: I use an example in my class. If a student comes to me and says, Richard, you're arrogant. And I say to my students, there's two ways we can respond to this, right? You can respond as, what do you mean I'm arrogant, you son of a, you know, I can attack and say you're arrogant and talk to all my friends. You know what my friend, my student said to me the other day?
He said I was arrogant. Can you believe that guy? And I can have that kind of reaction. Or I can have a reaction that's more reflective about that. If that guy's telling me that, Maybe I don't agree with the exact example he gave because it's hard for me to see in that situation, but if I'm more virtuous, more ethical, I will try to think about that a little bit, won't I?
Most of us don't, though, do we? Yeah, so
Cláudia: we normally don't do that. But this example that you just brought, Richard, we have to be more in-depth in this analysis.
Richard: Let me tell
Cláudia: you. If most of your students would say you are arrogant and they would refuse coming to your classes And this is not happening. Your classes are becoming bigger and bigger.
Of course. Okay. So there is a percentage of 10% or 20% maximum of people that would tell you, you are arrogant. So this would more indicate an inversion of your student that is projecting onto you his own arrogance because
Richard: you are the teacher. You are bringing knowledge. You are bringing new things that he doesn't know. And he can't take it. He can't stand seeing you in a higher level of knowledge and capacity.
So his perception is upside down. Just to be clear, I've never had a student say that to me. I wanted to use that as
Cláudia: an example. So you see, this is very common to happen with students, with teachers.
Richard: Okay, so a friend then. Okay,
Cláudia: so a bunch of friends would say this to you.
Richard: Pay attention. This is not only a way you behave.
This is not
Cláudia: only like a kind of thing that people would misinterpret you when you're really arrogant. Yeah, what
Richard: I'm trying to get to here, Cláudia, is that these kinds of things that come to us, we don't see about ourselves. We really don't. And so we need to try to understand this better inside ourselves. And this takes a lot of courage in a way, or ethics, or virtue, or something, to be able to admit that we are not what we think we are, as you've been saying.
Cláudia: Remember, Richard, one of the biggest problems of human beings is with love, nobody wants to love, is giving to others. Nobody wants to give anything to anyone. Everybody's more concerned with his own interests, his own life, his own needs. So giving, being good, being helpful forgetting about yourself and thinking more about others being humble this is very Christian very Christian truly Christian so this is divine a divine behavior and normally we don't see this as a divine Behavior.
We see this as inferior, weak, stupid, non-realistic.
Richard: Not the real world. It's not the real world. Come on.
Cláudia: So we don't understand that this is not only for eternity. This is not only to get grants for a better eternal life. No, this is for here and now. How to be more intelligent, how to be more balanced, how to be more productive, how to be more healthy, yes, and even happier.
So this is the recipe for a better quality of life. But you must understand that we react against this because of this unconscious inversion. Let me tell you an example. Oh, please, good. This is always fantastic.
Richard: I'll give one example of myself.
Cláudia: Okay. Very recent example. So for a reason of accommodations, our clinic became small, and we had to expand. So I have now two offices to work.
I have one office, and I have another place where I see my patients.
Richard: And you have our studio
Cláudia: that you come once a week. Yes. But this new place I have to go takes more time for me to go there. And okay, so I, but there is something I enjoy, because it's this walking that I have to do back and forth every day, so it's healthy.
But the idea of having to move from my habits and from, and this is egotism, this is egotism, and the idea of having to move from my habits and going there and having to reschedule all my activities because of the growth of our work. This should be something that I would have to accept very happily and with no resistance, right? Logically, but emotionally, I have a resistance.
So I feel it in my own self, the whole self, I feel it. So I have to understand this inversion that I'm seeing through this opening, in this
Richard: growth, something negative, which is attacking me, which is disturbing my life. And this is how we understand a lot of things. So babies come, for instance, they were planned and desired by their parents, but when they come, what is the reaction?
Sometimes parents want to kill them. If they are balanced enough, they will not do that, but some do kill them. And some women go into a big depression after. Yes,
Cláudia: their baby is born, yes, because they have to give, they have to uh step us like beyond their egotism, narcissism. This is so
Richard: right, because I feel this in myself too with growth.
I was thinking of a conversation I heard one time in a, in a department store. A woman said, I could get so much work done if it wasn't for all these bloody customers.
Cláudia: So you see, all reactions, all reactions. When someone is getting married or there is
Richard: like an award or you completed some important task, generally there is a depression after that.
There's a letdown. That's true. That's very true. Right? Exactly right.
Cláudia: Because we can't stand goodness, happiness. We can't stand. We are
Richard: inverted. We are upside down. It's not the end of the goodness we don't like. It's the process of being good. And this exiting from our narcissism, oh, boy, I see this in the classroom every day. The students who don't want to speak, who don't want to share, don't want to contribute, they're thinking too much about themselves.
And our job is, I teach languages, but anything that we teach, it's the same thing. You have to help the person to get out of themselves a little bit in order to give to others, to contribute to others.
Cláudia: So that's, Dan, the reason we don't stop smoking. You can put a lot of ads in the cigarettes packages showing, and the worse they show, more attracted people will be towards that.
And drugs and everything you speak about is a prohibition. Ah, Dan, it's more flavorful, it's spicy, it causes attraction. Everything that is forbidden because it's bad causes attraction, but the consequences are not good. So it is indeed important to understand that this is not morals, this is not an ethical code made up by man. This is natural because nature is, our essence is good, beautiful and truthful.
So if we go against this, with these upside-down desires, then we destroy our essence. And by destroying our essence, we destroy our happiness, because we cannot be happy against our essence, against who we are, against our true desires and true needs.
Richard: And where Keppe's work really helps us is that as we begin to see that these are intentions, then we can begin to deal with the intentions, and we can begin to solve these problems.
Now,
Cláudia: let me just finish with one concept, if we can. Have you heard about conversion? Yes. People in religion institutions, they say, we must convert, we must convert. But our understanding about conversion is a little different. We understand that converting is conversion. Conversion, it's like with the version is being with reality, with what is right and good and beautiful, and what is good.
So conversion is going back to the true version of reality. And this cannot absolutely be done in just one baptism or just one day. You say no, I believe in Christ, and that's it. This is impossible because every minute, every second, we have to understand and to see and to pay attention to our inversions in order to convert and convert and convert and convert.
And this is a sacrifice, a huge sacrifice. And this is what probably the Holy Mary said in her messages. You must convert, you must do sacrifice, you must do penance, because being good for us is a big penance and a big sacrifice. Seems so
Richard: strange, doesn't it, that doing good could be a sacrifice. But because of our inversion, that's exactly what has happened.
This is a science that really explains the root causes of the human destruction of the planet in a way that makes it possible for us to overcome that and actually get better. That is our program for this week, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the stop radio network.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, talk to you next time on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
