Richard Lloyd Jones: Trilogical science has been around for half a century. In that time, it's ID'd essential aspects of the human psyche. It's allowed us to analyze our myriad personal and social issues. And it's elaborated new work and living structures that solve many long-standing inequalities. Oh, and one more thing. Trilogy is calling some new people here. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, Jason's Excellent Adventure.
A new Canadian's view of Trilogy and his country. First, just let me let you know that I'm always happy to get email from you about the show. Whether it's a comment or a question, it's always good to know what you're thinking. And I'm looking to have contact with as many people who are listening to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head as possible, because we're expanding on what we offer with this program.
I know I've been talking about this for some time, but I want to encourage you to just drop me a line with your email address so I can keep you updated. I'm making some new Keppe books available very soon, and we're developing our teleclass series, and I'd like to be able to contact you directly whenever something cool comes along in our work.
So please fire me off a quick note if you haven't already done so, so I know you're listening, and I'll keep you in the loop. Rich at richjonesvoice.com. You know, Norberto Keppe's work deserves to be studied seriously because it's a serious scientific school of thought that considers the impact of the human psyche in areas as diverse as relationships and economics, the impact of our minds on our health, the disinversion of science and banking, and even how to develop your career and business.
Our World Conference of Analytical Trilogy in San Diego this coming September 24th to 27th will be an excellent overview of this incredible science, and I highly recommend it for you if you're interested in learning out more. You can check out details at www.wcatus.org. One guy who's responded to Keppe's work through this podcast is a young Canadian named Jason Coombs. He's been listening for the past year and a half or so and corresponding with me and finally took the big plunge to move on down here to study more.
I thought it would be an interesting thing for you to talk to him about his story and his first impressions of Trilogy and its specific applications to our country, Canada. Well, Jason, let me start with the same question that all my students ask me. What are you doing moving from Canada to Brazil?
Well, it's an interesting question. Why did I come here?
I was really introduced to Trilogy through Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, through these podcasts. You know, I was browsing around iTunes and I came across, looking up philosophy and I came across the great title of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. And I really enjoyed the different opinion that the podcast gave to all the issues out there. Depression, war, the economy. And as I kept listening to more podcasts, more questions came up.
And so I wanted to find out more and learn more. And so that's when I started getting in touch with you. The progression led to me reading you sending me the book, Liberation of the People. I read that. Again, wanted to find out more, go a little bit deeper. So the next book I read was The Origin of Illness, which was, everything's been absolutely incredible, the phenomenal theories and everything.
And at the time, I was always, and my whole life, actually, I've always been more interested in the money side of things, the business side of things. And work in capital was the next book and that really hit me well that's a bomb that book oh it's absolutely incredible. I was working for a bank at the time and I won't mention which one but I have a lot of knowledge from the financial side of things in Canada.
Used to be a financial advisor and I've studied a lot about money and and those types of things. So work in capital in the economy the way it approached the economy the way it approached a business was absolutely revolutionary. Actually it's a great word exactly it really was a shock to my system. Um these are things that I knew that I had felt deep inside anyway but they kind of brought them up to the surface in a more practical term.
Richard: Give us some specifics Jason like because the both of these these three books you've talked about Liberation of the People is an extraordinary exploration of the pathology of power. Origin of Illness is a treatise on human psychopathology here in the 21st millennium I've never read anything like it. And work and capital deals directly with the problems in economics. So give us some specific things that impressed you from your experience in the bank with economics and now with with Keppe's thinking.
Well my experience in the bank and anything I've really done my whole career. I've always had an issue with making somebody else money. Of going to work for 40 hours a week and working as hard as I possibly can, trying to get as much money out of it as I can so I can go and buy my things, and then seeing the wealth that it creates on the other side for the individuals or very few people.
It was something that just didn't ring true to me. I you know I was fortunate enough when I was younger to experience both sides I think. My uncle's very, very wealthy. My father's a laborer. And I was fortunate enough to see both sides of it and experience both sides of it. And I wanted to know why it had to be like that, why it had to have that division.
And that's where working capital really came in to play. Forming a trilogical enterprise is a very different thing. Yeah,
Richard: it's interesting because now you're talking the same experience that the guy who wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad had, where he had the comparison between the two. Only he, in his book, has proposed ideas for how to make the money, how to get the money to work while you're sleeping, you know, as one of my favorite comments from North American thinking around money.
And Keppe says exactly the opposite, that you can't separate capital from work. The problem in society today is we have a lot of people making capital with capital and not with work. Actually, the whole American economy today is based on investment, on speculation, on exploitation, and not on actual production anymore. All the production is being done in China or Mexico or here in Brazil.
So this is a big problem in the economy, isn't it? How do you see that now, looking at it through your couple of weeks of vast experience here in Brazil? Yeah, vast
experience for sure. And that was the rich dad, poor dad. You know, that was one of my favorite books a good five, six years ago, because it did explain the difference between how the poor look at, according to your poor dad, right?
The poor look at the economy and how the wealthy look at the economy and how the wealthy make their money and how the poor don't make money. And it is a very, what I'm learning here, it is a very inverted point of view because rich dad, according to the book, basically wants you to make money while you're sleeping. Like, without providing any necessary value to the human race.
Yeah, the money makes money, not the work makes money. Right. So, you know, and I kind of, in my mind, I kind of based it, I brought it down to a really basic level where if I want to live, I have to provide for my food and my water. And I have to contribute something to my society. And I don't think it's generally a right thing for me to have other people contribute to my well-being while taking away from their well-being.
Richard: Yeah, this is a great point. And I think it's very important to say at this point that in a trilogical company, it's not about being poor either. It's not about saying that money is the bad thing. It's this whole thing of connecting up again that money that you make needs to come from the work that you do. And this is a big, big difference in our company, I think.
Because we want to make the money because we want to do things like this podcast. It takes money to do this. It takes money to do our work. We need money to do good things in the planet. So the money is welcome, fantastic, incredible, but it should be based on the work that we do, not on the work our money does. And that's
actually a great point because it was eye-opening to me to see how successful a trilogical company can be.
But it is divisible based on one's contribution to the company. And by contribute, I mean real value, real work. And that's my own belief. That's what I think is right. And so it was a big eye-opener for me to see how successful a triological company is in practice.
Richard: That's another great thing about Norberto Keppe's work. I think it's not just a theory in a book somewhere, a theory for an academic to discuss in a university class.
It has a direct application in the world of business as one example. What other things have impressed you in terms of Dr. Keppe's ideas since you've been here? You've been here just a couple of weeks, so it's a short time, but you've been fully immersed in the thing, working and participating in what we're doing. What's impressed you? What has stood out in your mind?
Yeah, and I think the fully immersed part has been the best for me. One of the major things that I think has really impressed me is just an observation I've made about myself and working. Back home in Canada working a 10 hour day was very rare normally because we didn't get paid for those extra two hours and I always considered it to be rewarding somebody else more than it would be rewarding Morning myself.
I didn't want to do it. Working here, we work hard. And I've never necessarily worked hard. And for a long period of time, like 12 hours a day. You know, 14 hours a day. I remember the first day, it was a Monday, and by the time we went home, I was tired. I was dead. I was exhausted. But I haven't been since.
Why do
Richard: you think that is because you talk about being energized and boy when I first came here I felt exactly the same thing but what is it that gives us this energy. I think it's
a couple things it's a collective thing it's like a cycle. I think the level of thought that goes into the work we do here is is a high level of thought. It's an intense level of thought. So you're you're actually using your mind as opposed to just drumming through the work to get out of work.
And so what that does, I think it creates an energy within the group. Everyone is going at that high level of thought. Everyone's really, really participating and really, really cares about what they're doing. So, you know, it really brings in that energy. And so when I say a multiple of things, I think it's that level of thought that I've been able to experience here.
But it's also the energy of the group. Everyone is happy. Everyone's excited about working. Everyone is excited about getting the things done because they know that getting those things done will provide value to our clients and to our lives. And to the world. And to
Richard: the world, yeah, yeah. What are the concepts of Norberto Keppe's that have impressed you the most? I remember when I first came here, I started to really study.
When you're out of the country, starting to read the books, you're sort of reading as, oh, that's interesting, interesting, but you're not really deepening in the work so much. When you come here, you start to really think, oh, that's very interesting how he sees that. What have been the things that have triggered that for you?
Well, I've been really trying to concentrate on the basic, basic things.
Envy, inversion specifically. And through conversations and through reading, because when I'm working, I'm studying as well. That's the really neat thing about this. You're working and you're learning as well. And you know the envy and the inversion are something that's it's just it it applies. It's practical because if I the more I'm learning about it the more I'm thinking about it well does that make sense in my mind. And then I'll go into a situation maybe things that happened in my past, things that happened in my daily life back in Canada.
It's perfect. It makes perfect sense. When you learn how to apply it to your thoughts and to what you're actually doing in life, it fits like the last piece of a puzzle. It's amazing. I
Richard: was just thinking of your comment just now about how you can analyze things in your life and things in society through this lens of psychosocial pathology, Dr. Keppe's brilliant discoveries in this area.
And nobody in the history of humanity has been able to clarify the human psyche and its impact in the society like he has. So when you start to look at the world through that lens, I was thinking for any field, you know, if you're a personal coach, it's fantastic understanding. If you're a journalist, which is what I do, it's incredible. If you're a teacher, it's phenomenal.
If you're a salesperson, it's unbelievable. If you're a mother staying at home with the kids, it's unbelievable. It has application in every area of human endeavor. How do you see that? How have you experienced that? Well,
you know, the thing that stuck out in my mind right there was the mother staying home with the kids. Absolutely imperative that that mother is able to conscientize what they do in their lives so that the next generation will have it easier and so forth.
But looking at it from a career standpoint when I was a salesperson, there are so many different things that if I was able to conscientize back then. I've been here for two weeks. There's so many things that I've learned about me as a salesperson just through learning and really conscientizing the things, the envy and the inversion. For example? Well, you know, what's the thing of the salesperson is there's always that 80-20 rule.
You know, 80% of the work is done by 20% of the salespeople. Even in your tasks, 80% of your sales come from 20% of your tasks. We all know this as salespeople, but we don't do it. We don't practice it. But why don't we do it? And it's the envy and the inversion that comes into it. So if I know that doing task A will get me a sale, why is it that I didn't do it or that I put it off to the end of the day?
Why is it that I put it off till tomorrow? Maybe even sometimes I procrastinated a little bit too long and lost the sale. Those are the things that I've noticed. And, you know, and it is that inversion. It's that me trying to destroy my success, me trying to sabotage my success as a salesperson.
Richard: Yeah, this, I think, is one of the most important aspects for us initially to understand is that we have intentions that are inconscientized to us.
And so we generally don't see the real intention we have, so we make an excuse. Well, I didn't have enough time. I didn't have enough money. I was afraid. I was with more external things. Without not wanting to see that there's an intention underneath it. This is something that could help all of us in life a lot.
Yeah, and just one quick thing about that is, you know, you see that intention, and if you can internalize that intention, maybe it happens once, twice, three times more. But once you're able to recognize it and then change that, and you find out the real reason why, because we all know what we should do.
I all I knew that task a should have been done. And I knew when it should have been done, which is like right now. But I didn't do it. And I did rationalize why I didn't do it back then, right? Well, you know what, I need to send this email out to this person, because if I don't, I'll forget. So I push that task a aside, and I send that email out.
Or, you know, it's getting kind of close to lunch, people are, you know, I'm not going to call this person, because they're probably going to go on lunch pretty soon. And I don't want to disturb them, because if I disturb them, maybe I'll lose a sale. So I'll push it off then. I'll push it off even further and further. Which sounds rational.
It sounds very rational, because you can create phenomenal excuses to not do what's right. But deep down inside, I knew. And so I would shut my brain off to that and just use the rational excuse to not do it.
Richard: You know, it's interesting, because let's just draw a bigger circle now. You talked about how we all know what we should do, but we don't do it.
Isn't this true in our sort of global societal level, too? We all know we should stop polluting, we should stop war, we should stop terrorizing other people, we should stop aggression. Everybody knows these things, but we don't do them. How do you see that now? I take a
look at that back home in Canada. We have a perfect example of that. We know that war is wrong.
As a nation, we've always known that war is wrong. We've always been peacekeepers. But for some reason, something's changed. And now we're in Afghanistan warring with another nation, warring against another group of people in another country in another part of the world. And why are we doing that?
Richard: We know what the excuse is, right? We know what the excuse is. Let's tell people who aren't Canadians, what is the excuse?
Because many people don't even know, probably from other parts of the world, that Canada is doing this crazy thing in Afghanistan. What is our prime minister's excuse for this? As
far as I know, we're helping out in the war on terrorism. And that's, we're helping out the United States on the war on terrorism. And of course, it's a global thing. If we fight terrorism, then we're fighting it for the rest of humanity and so forth.
Richard: What's really going on, do you think? How would you analyze this now?
Well, if you take a look at the Canadian society and how we were peacekeepers before, we were always looked at as a nice, peace-loving country. And if you're a Canadian and you travel all over the world, you're generally looked at favorably. Even more generally I think it's I know I've heard of I have some American friends who've traveled and used a Canadian patch on their shoulder because they know that people love Canadians.
So why do they love Canadians because we don't war we are peace loving and now what's happening is we're becoming a warring nation. What's
Richard: the intention of the Canadian leaders here the real intention underneath the excuses the rationalization what's the real
intention. I think the real intention there is to start slowly sabotaging the Canadian society the Canadian country and
Richard: I've been out of the country for a lot longer than you and I have seen that happening for a long time.
Canada has been eroding away what made Canada the thing it was you know the social programs the everybody's equal everybody has the same opportunities for education, for health care, for the basic necessities of life. That's been eroded away, away, away by a lot of envy in our political leaders. This is a manifestation directly of envy, as Dr. Keppe talks about it, envy of good things for other people.
It's
an amazing thing to see because it's happening not only in just in the war, like you said, it's happening with our our phenomenal healthcare system. We have an awesome healthcare system, but it's not good enough. What we're trying to do is Model it after a system that's trying to model ours. It's completely ironic. It's absolutely insane if you sit down and think about it.
We want to go to a system that's similar to the system in the States. Yet, they're trying to go to a system that's similar to ours. Where does that work? It's amazing. And then you look at the economy side of things. There's rumors all the time going around and different articles popping up in business sections and investment sections all the time about how we might consider unifying the Canadian dollar with the U.S.
Dollar. So basically unifying the two economies. So yeah, sure, let's attach our economy to the biggest sinking ship in the world right now.
Richard: Can you see the envy of Canada here, of what Canada has? Because Canadians who have been trying to create a pluralistic, equal society have had this established in the world as one of the ideal places to live for people, is being taken away because of the envy of Canadians who don't fight for these things.
Well, many Canadians do, of course. Our political leaders are primarily responsible for sort of creating this atmosphere where we start to not trust other people. We start to think, something bad's going on in Toronto. I don't know what it is, but there's something there I don't like. I'm going to start looking out for my turf here in Alberta or in Newfoundland. And we start to doubt and question.
All of this is used by the sociopathological leaders to create these divisions within the country. It's very important for Canadians to understand this better.
Yeah, it is. It's an amazing thing because it's happening slowly. And it's happening kind of like the wool's pulling over our eyes. We can't really see it. And if we sit back and take a look at it, it's evident.
It's obvious. When he talked about the envy of Canadians, We have so many phenomenal things in Canada, all the natural resources that we have, all the beautiful, clean lakes that we have. Everything in Canada is phenomenal, and yet we're trying to throw it away. We're trying to throw it away to the states. We're trying to give it away to everybody else. We're saying we don't want the good.
We don't want it. We're trying
Richard: to ruin it. Including making natural gas agreements with the United States that honour the shipments to the United States, even when we have a shortage in Canada.
Incredible. You know, it's obvious. We said earlier, you can rationalize it as much as you possibly can, but deep down inside, everyone knows that it's wrong. Some things to think
Richard: about for fellow Canadians.
But maybe we've seen the same erosion of programs for the people in many countries around the world. One thing for sure, I always looked at it uncomprehendingly before. With Keppe's Analytical Trilogy, Now it can be correctly analyzed. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Talk to you next week.
