Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and welcome once again to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are a program about thinking, of course, but also about acting, about contributing to a better society. It's our contention at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in Brazil that if we understand the benefits of good action, we would all be more inclined toward it. Perhaps we've forgotten that tenet of society, that do-unto-others creed that earlier generations grew up with.
I'm not sure when it happened exactly, but somewhere along the way, being good got a bad rap. It became cool to not care, to look after number one only. Maybe we threw the goodness baby out with the bathwater when we were marching for revolution in the 60s and trying to undo everything the man had erected. But we tuned out on some good stuff too, not just the insanity of war.
It's fundamental to our society to do good, but it's also essential to our sanity. And with the horror of Norway, another reminder of how off track we humans are, it might be good to remind ourselves that we have contributed. Lessons from Norway, today, on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
There was quite a discussion, too, on our Thinking with Somebody Else's Head Facebook page over the weekend. About whether or not we have an animal nature, and part of that discussion has stimulated my thoughts for our program today. Just to let you know where I come down on that question, my study here of Dr. Norberto Keppe's work shows me that we don't have an animal nature at all, but we do have a lot of attitudes against our true, good, beautiful, and truthful essence that make us sometimes act worse than animals, as we saw in Norway.
Anyway, join us there on Facebook for some good stuff with our very thoughtful and thought-provoking listeners to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Love to have you join us there. You know, this situation that's happened in Norway is terrible. The situation with Amy Winehouse happening on the same day, very sad as well. We'll be discussing those with Dr. Cláudia Baron-Harposheku in a few moments.
But I want to just make a few sort of initial comments about it. This issue of our social life is really something to see. When we're kids, you know, we see life kind of in this wonderful way, most of us. Then as we become teens, we start to enter society. And mainly when we begin to enter work, then we see that life is completely different.
Because the society that we live in is not a particularly friendly society today. It's a very neurotic society. You'll notice that we're seeing a total lack of interest these days in culture, advanced civilization, complete lack of interest in the arts. Not complete, but you understand what I'm saying there, much less interest in the arts. The human being today is no longer the human being who was interested in elevated things, things of value, like theological things, metaphysical things, aesthetic values.
We've turned into basically money makers. If you compare the level of dialogue conversations that the old artists of the classical music period had, for example, compared to our artistic level of conversation today, wow, you'll be shocked by that. So this is really a desire that people have of not being who we are, of not improving who we are, but really of trying to be different from who we are.
It's an inverted sense of values in our society. Our question today is not love your fellow man. The way society is presently, this principle has been exchanged for hate one another or compete with one another. So society is not protecting us. And Dr. Keppe would talk about how our arrogance is dominating our world today. And this is the problem of the Norway shooter, right?
He's the one to decide who lives and who dies. Enormous arrogance. We see this in the creation of war, the financial insanity of Wall Street. These institutions put themselves above the people's needs. And this is an inverted society. This is what we're living in today and what the science of Norberto Keppe can help us to understand better, particularly his book, Liberation of the People, highly recommended and available on our website at HealingThroughConsciousness.com.
We're nearing the deadline for the United States to raise the debt ceiling or go bankrupt. I don't know what's going to happen. As I'm recording this, that deadline is approaching tomorrow. So I brought in my friend Gilbert Gambucci to talk a little bit about the roots of the economic crisis, to give us some consciousness. Then Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco will join us after Gilbert in his segment on the situation, the monetary situation, and the roots of the financial crisis.
Dr. Kepley talks a lot about the sort of deadliness of having an economy based on speculation. Maybe you should talk about that too, Gilbert, because that's like a fundamental underpinning of Dr. Kepley's economic view, isn't it? Yes,
Gilbert Gambucci: you know, it might be good to start with this idea that people are blaming the situation of our economy on the past eight obviously bellicose years.
But it's not the origin of the problem. You know, let's say the last presidential administration. They were using an idea that actually comes from ancient Rome. In that if you want peace, prepare for war. It's an old Roman saying that really it's wrong, this saying. It doesn't work. You know, if you want peace, you have to bring peace you know and if you attack people then they will attack you even more and they won't stop you know.
And this puts a discord into the population. This idea of creating war there's no benefits to it at all. And if you want to speak just about economy it's devastating to the economy. But this is not the origin of what is of the crises that we are experiencing right now in the United States and worldwide as a result. What
Richard: are the origins?
How far back do we have to go? We're not going to go back to ancient Rome to find the roots of this problem. Where does it begin, this crisis that we're seeing today, Gilbert?
Gilbert: Well, you know, in the 80s, I was working directly with Dr. Keppe in New York. And he wrote a book at that time. The first book that he wrote in the States was called The Decay of the United States and of the American People.
And we call it the Decay Book. And this book, it was written very much in the spirit of the late President John Kennedy who said that a free society is a critical society. That is to say, it's good to bring up the real problems, to analyze them so that they can be resolved and move forward into what Kennedy called the new frontier.
And so in the 80s, there were... Where Keppe was analyzing problems that were happening in the economy. Things he saw when he moved there in the early 80s, right? Yes. Well, you know, there was, I mean, they were kind of obvious. You know, agriculture was going out of business. In just the year 1982 alone, 34,000 farms in the United States went bankrupt.
Wow. And this was the tendency throughout this decade. And industries were moving out of the country to where there was cheaper labor, okay? And so there was the real economy, the industry, the agriculture, the real workforce was in shambles. You know, it was deteriorating. So what happened at that time? Instead of addressing these real problems to see how it would be possible to help the agriculture of the United States, to help the industries, the workforce, What happened was there was an introduction of what is called, everyone knows, Reaganomics.
And so what was Reaganomics essentially? He really stimulated the speculative market. Okay, so what happened? Even, for example, not just big companies who speculate, but even individuals, people, anybody. Everybody started speculating in the stock market more and more. And so what happens? You know, you make some money working, you put it in the stock market where the returns would be enormous in many cases.
And so people stopped working. You know, one step at a time, people began to work less and less and just started earning money, if I could put it this way, doing nothing. That is, servicing no one with anything. Even some of
Richard: the funds that have been created today, Gilbert, these very elaborate hedge funds and derivative funds, they're all sort of like a way of hedging your losses or protecting your losses.
But they're so sophisticated and complicated, and actually nothing is produced in the buying and selling of these hedge funds, these derivatives. It's a totally speculative balloon that has no real product attached to it. This is
Gilbert: what you're talking about, right? Yes. And imagine, Rich, people putting money in their pockets through these processes, trying to explain to people that, look, your economy is going down.
But how is it going down? We've never had more money ever floating around, you know? And so people were not perceiving that. The real economy was going down. Now look, there's a difference between economy and finances. Maybe it's on purpose that this is not clarified. People who have secondary intentions don't want us to know this. There is the real economy. This is the workforce.
And specifically, it's industry, it's agriculture, it's even commercial trade, international trade. All of the result of activity. A product of generating something, right? Yes, something where you benefit from what the work is. And then there's the financial aspect, which deals with setting prices on things to facilitate the real economy. Okay, so there are two different things. They're not one thing. So if this speculative market falls and when I say speculative market I mean this money that doesn't exist if that falls um that would be good for the real economy.
The real economy then would have a chance to move forward to
Richard: develop. Yeah Lincoln Lincoln said something very interesting. Let's go back to one of the great presidents of the United States and he said and Dr Keppe was talking about this in his book Liberation of the People which was the second book he wrote in the United States when he was there in the early 80s, early to mid 80s.
Lincoln said, nothing good can be enjoyed without having first required some work. So this idea, I think, is a psychological issue, Gilbert, that we want to get something for nothing. We want to put our, one of my students was telling me the other day he invested some money in the Brazilian stock market, which is nothing like the American stock market. But in two weeks, his money made 30%.
Well, that's totally out of reality. That money doesn't really exist in any way. But this is the idea we have, that I put a little bit of money here in the stock market, and then magically, somehow, like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat, I'm going to make 10 or 15 or 20, or if I'm lucky, 30%. This is totally illusory, isn't
Gilbert: it?
Yes. You know, Rich, some 15, 18 years ago, I was in Moscow for a couple of weeks, Moscow, Russia. And it was just after the perestroika initiative there with Gorbachev. And what happened was, what I was playing there was that there were many people who had lots of money. They had lots of rubles, but there was nothing to buy. And so where is the wealth?
Where is the real wealth? You know, if people are not working, if we're not servicing each other, quality of life comes from the quality of work that we do for each other and not the amount of money that you have. So in this extreme example, and this is what is happening with the United States today. You know, if we don't do a good service for each other, if we stop working, then it doesn't matter how much money you have.
There's nothing that supports that money. It
Richard: doesn't represent anything. I forget the city now, but there's a big protest in a part of the United States where they produce a lot of pipe, or where they used to produce a lot of pipe, industrial pipe, pipe for plumbing, these kinds of things. And there's an enormous protest happening in this town, in this area of the United States, and I'm sorry I forget where it is now, because of the pipe that's being imported from India.
So they've been farming out this production to Mexico and India and particularly China, countries like Brazil, for decades now. This has been happening in an attempt to keep the prices down, so-called, but it's caused an enormous corruption of the industrial base and the farming base of the United States,
Gilbert: hasn't it? Yes. You know what, Rich? Behind that, what is happening is somebody is making more money on the speculative market.
This is why they do this. They say it's because, oh, the labor is cheaper. No, they're getting more money on this speculative market. Now, if you want to understand what is our crisis exactly, we do have an answer that needs to become aware of. It needs to be conscientized so that we know better what is the origin of the problem. So, look, there's something in one of Dr.
Keppe's books called Work and Capital on page 71 of this book. There's something very interesting here, how he shows that if the speculative market develops greatly, if it really becomes much stronger than the other end of the process, what is the other end of the process? It's those who work. What happens is those who work suffer and if those who work get into a very difficult situation then how you make money with money doesn't exist anymore and the whole thing comes down but together as is now happening.
Thinking with
Richard: Somebody Else's Head is on the Positive World Radio Network and we're back in just a moment don't go away.
Could I take a moment just to invite you to check out our site and please send it out to some of your contacts uh one of the things I think that's so important about the work we do is for people to hear it.
This is sort of obvious isn't it we we I think I think the the program we do has a lot of value and I would really like people to become more aware of it
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: considering the downloads people are hearing it. Yeah
Richard: people are listening
Cláudia: to the program over 400 000 downloads of our radio programs since dating back to about 2006 I think
and uh lots of interest lots of comments on our Facebook pages and so there are people who are
Gilbert: accessing it. But you know we this social network is here for us to spread the good words so let people know about what we're doing
Richard: please. That's important.
I don't know where to start Cláudia there's so many things happening since we last had you on the program that maybe we could give a little bit of a trilogical view of how you see the the situation in first in Norway boy that's a well
Cláudia: it can't
Richard: that's a heavy heavy
Cláudia: story can start from Norway case and then we go to England Amy
Richard: Winehouse and
Cláudia: then we go
Richard: forward and then we get to us.
Yeah because we are like always having something to do with what is happening out there. Ah, this is
Cláudia: important. Yeah, because when we read something, something astonishing, something so horrible, so shocking, everybody wants to
Richard: know and wants to
Cláudia: know because they feel, they sense there is something vibrating innerly that is involved in the situation.
Richard: Somehow they're involved in it, somehow identified with it.
Cláudia: Yeah, absolutely.
Richard: So we're identified with what's happening. And so let's look at the situation there. This young man, by the way, it's always interesting. They say there were maybe two or three shooters, but we only hear about one. There are reports that the gunshots were coming from different angles. And so we never, it's like the Kennedy assassination. We never know what's really going on there, right?
We know
Cláudia: for sure, and I know for sure, that this guy is absolutely not working alone, first. Second, that behind him, there are forces that even he doesn't know about. Right. That he's being
Richard: like... He's like a marionette, right? Marionette.
Cláudia: He's being controlled. Yes, in the group also, because we can understand what are the intentions behind this from the results that we get from what happened.
So, go ahead.
Richard: All right. So, this is, and I want to talk about these forces behind me because I think this is important. And also, it's always interesting in these cases how these guys are so good at shooting. They're trained somehow. They have lots of money to fund all these weapons and arms, and they don't seem to work, or nobody seems to know what they do, but they seem to have access to these things all the time.
So these are factors that need to be analyzed.
Cláudia: And they have a tremendous publicity for what they do. A worldwide media coverage.
Richard: Recognition somehow.
Cláudia: No, they have all the publicity. Even his writings are all posted in the Internet, integral version of this.
Richard: The whole thing, right?
Cláudia: So it's an enormous publicity. So people, everybody, it's not only a fact that is something that happened and that media wants to sell.
No, there are many, many interests. Behind this, behind the scenes. And you see, Richard, all the time, these hidden forces wanting to create trouble, wanting to create confusion, wanting to create tension, social tension, revolution, civil wars, wars. So they are trying all the time. They are planning all the time. How come those billionaires, figures of United States, military Industry. How is it going to continue that way?
So economy went downhills lately because who pays the bills of United States government? And all the guns and all the weapons and all this spending on military so United States can be on the top. Because you see, the American people, they are not really aware of what is behind their government. And even Obama is trying to be a little bit more sensible, and they don't let him be.
American people is an emotional, they are emotional, very emotional people. They think things can be worked out as a miracle, as a boop, and then a bill or a new theory that would miraculously resolve their problem. But what we see behind the scenes is that who is pulling the strings in the United States? They have been using war and drugs to support their economy.
Richard: For some time now.
Cláudia: Yeah, for a long time.
Richard: So drugs and war. Take us inside how that works, Cláudia, how you see that. You wrote a book called The American Drug Multinational back in the early 90s, I think. That was a bomb of a book. It was a fantastic thing.
If it's not, write me personally.
I'll make sure you get a copy of that at joneshealing at gmail.com. But take us inside this world you're talking about, the world behind, the people controlling the strings. How do you and Dr. Keppe see that?
Cláudia: Well, we are scientists, So, following Freud's orientation, if you want to see the intentions, you see the results. If you want, always, always, the hidden intentions.
Richard: Show up in the results.
Cláudia: Yeah, and this is very Christian, too. A Christian philosophy. You see the tree through the fruits. Yeah. So if you want to see who is, and also in investigative journalism or law, if you want to see who is the guilty one, see or try to find out who had the benefits, who won with that thing. So you see.
Richard: Follow the
Cláudia: money in a way, right? Follow the money, follow the advantages, and then you see what is happening.
Richard: Who's benefiting from this militaristic
Cláudia: system is certain people. And now, for a time, you see that the world is fed up with wars. People want peace. People want to feed their citizens. They want to dress up who is naked. They want to have their homes, their ceilings above them.
So they want to be... Not
Richard: living in a tent in San Diego.
Cláudia: They want to enjoy life. They are fed up with wars and all these conflicts. So who benefits with the wars and conflicts? The producers, the military industry. So this is the thing. And as we see now, the world is not ready for a third world war. They don't want that.
Richard: No, people do not want this.
Cláudia: They don't want. They want peace. And on the other hand, the people who pull the strings, they want to create confusion, competition. And they are many times getting there because they create such a hell in Europe bringing all those immigrants with these new laws and so when they brought immigrants to Europe instead of creating conditions for those Islamic peoples to produce their own goods and industrialize them and develop them in their own countries this is a similar thing we do here in Brazil.
The people from northern come northeast they come to São Paulo and then we create a hell in São Paulo
Richard: northeast of Brazil we come here
Cláudia: a lot of violence because so the governments are not wanting to develop the northeast and they have their own corruption corrupt interests in this and so we pay the price we here in São Paulo state and São Paulo city we pay the price we pay the bill because then all those poor people come down and they bring violence and they bring all this hell to us and we would prefer much better that people who are in the northern region of Brazil if we would by paying our taxes as we pay so much so much taxes here in São Paulo so this money could uh bring them development and they would prefer much much better to stay where they are where
Richard: they were born
Cláudia: develop it there sure.
So the same thing with um the the Arabs and Islamic people, the Turks and those poor countries, if they would have their own economy developed, they would prefer much better. So when they bring those people to Europe, they are creating an instability and friction. And that's what they want. It's not really a matter of racism. It's a matter of creating an economic, horrible situation for everybody.
So they start blaming the immigrants and not the people in power who made the laws to bring in the immigrants so they are
Richard: blaming different targets and at the same time setting up an economic system where we exploit those poor countries where the people have nothing there they have to come to the more
Cláudia: developed countries exactly, exactly like they did in Colombia like they did in Afghanistan and like they did in many other countries who they created a
Richard: situation where they had to produce drugs, to plant cocaine and heroin and produce drugs.
So they became, the poorest countries became the drug producer countries. Yeah.
Cláudia: And because producing drugs, selling drugs, distributing drugs and selling drugs, it's a huge profit. For who? For whom? For those who are on the top of the pyramid, for
Richard: sure. Yeah. Not the workers inside the field. Not
Cláudia: the workers, because many people would prefer much better, many Colombians, if they would have means to make money with coffee and other plantations or other industrialization or whatever, instead of producing cocaine.
You know,
Richard: we see this all the time, Cláudia. We see people living in areas that are very, very rich in terms of resources and having nothing because these resources, these industries and stuff are controlled by farms and things, controlled by very large conglomerates. Yeah,
Cláudia: 300 families.
Richard: Yeah, 300 families around the
Cláudia: world. So now all these theories about these conspiracy theories, so why do you think they are publicizing so much that this crazy guy, This Norwegian is a radical fanatic of the right wing because he's speaking against immigration.
He's speaking against this and that. So everybody who speaks against all these new laws, they are crazy or they are dangerous. So what they do is to create even more paranoia, even more instability, even more like fractions to start a conflict. And that's what they want.
Richard: And to deflect the responsibility away from the powerful and into the people. You know, you see this all the time.
The situation in Greece now, this crisis in Greece, is being blamed on the baby boomers because, well, certainly there's an aspect of we baby boomers wanting too much. But they never put the finger on the economic policies that started 50, 60 years ago that have led to the situation that we're in today where we're borrowing more money than we have and we're investing it in crazy speculative ventures and derivatives and hedge
Cláudia: funds.
So banks own the countries now and the governments. Governments are not free anymore. The banks own the countries. This is the reality. And who supports the banks? Who gives the money to the banks?
Richard: Governments.
Cláudia: And peoples, mostly.
Richard: Yeah, that's true. And whose money do they give? We give our money. So, Cláudia, this is like, I think you put your finger on a fundamental thing and thinking in a very broad way about the real cause of our problem today, not being the people necessarily, the immigration, the conspiracy theorists, but the fact that this is all being manipulated in some way from above.
And this is something we don't talk very much about, and Keppe talks a lot about in his work, doesn't he? It's fantastic how he treats this subject.
Cláudia: Well, he did, mostly some time ago before things got so much worse. Before this hell started in Europe and in the United States, he tried to avoid that. And then we were arrested and persecuted. So now he takes more care about psychopathology, more physics, and he's watching what is happening.
Richard: With great
Cláudia: attention great attention and concern but he's not a political activist at all we
Richard: are back in just a moment. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network an expansive view of what's going on the causes of what's going on in our very disturbed world current world we are back in just a moment don't go away.
Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco has joined us for, I think, a hot topic. Cláudia. You know, I feel as you're speaking, you know, it can be very much misunderstood by people who are not open to understanding what you're saying. That this is not a question of blaming immigrants, but of blaming a system that has been set up worldwide, whereby developing nations are exploited with no opportunity.
They then look to the more developed countries, Germany, Norway, as we were talking about, United States, Canada, in order to find a solution. And this doesn't solve any problem because the fundamental problem of the powerful is not being addressed, not being
Cláudia: tackled. You can see that this may be something similar, and they have been trying to do this in Europe, to create a situation similar to September 11, where they created all this blowing up of these two towers, and what came behind this?
A system of repression and... Surveillance. Surveillance that
Richard: is...
Cláudia: Unprecedented. Unprecedented. In
Richard: history of human beings, unprecedented.
Cláudia: And they are willing to create this in Europe as well.
Richard: Well, okay, so now I see what you're saying. So now
Cláudia: they can justify, they say, we must avoid these crazy people to do this. So we have to observe, we have to surveil.
Richard: We have to
Cláudia: watch, listen.
Listen to the conversations. Keep
Richard: your e-mails.
Cláudia: E-mails, cell phones, everything, everybody to be controlled. Put cameras everywhere. Yeah,
Richard: cameras all over, and airports. Airport surveillance. Everything.
Cláudia: Frisking people more. Everything.
Richard: Cutting back on the rights of human beings.
Cláudia: And we can expect this to come to Brazil as
Richard: well, sooner or later. So they use these situations, which have been stimulated by them, they use these situations to then impose a level of control, a more level of control than we already have.
Cláudia: So they have the permission and the support of every household or every family will support and say, yes, we need that. We are under risk. And they do this to their real demons enemies, demonic enemies. So they give in and they say, okay, we give in to our privacy in order to prevent or to protect our lives and the
Richard: lives of our children.
Diminish the possibility of this happening again in the future.
Cláudia: This is the thing. And many, many people will say, no, we need that. It's necessary. The Islamic people, they are organizing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Richard: Taking over the world.
Cláudia: Yes. We have to defend ourselves. They are invading our house. Yeah, they are invading somehow, but they are sent and they have no other option because of the political decisions of these 300 families or these powerful, the richer, the richest, who control the planet.
The Billionaires. Yeah, and mostly the bankers. They are always, they are always the ones who are protected, who
Richard: are like, everybody has to pay for their bills and their supposed debts. Who pays for all this? We pay for this. We pay over and over and over again.
Cláudia: Over and over and over. So this is really demonic. This is really demonic. And this has nothing to do with fundamentalism, because they want to create a fundamentalistic idea, religious fundamentalism, which is horrible too, fanatic, radical.
And the radical and fanatic and emotional people don't reason. They are very much manipulated, very much easily manipulated. So
Richard: you're seeing this in a rather, I think, complex way now, Cláudia, of not just a conspiracy of powerful, certainly that, but also a collusion by us by not understanding this better. And
Gilbert: I can see now as you're speaking that there's a lot of this kind of typecasting, you know.
A lot of this happens in politics. You get typecast as a liberal. The moment somebody calls you a liberal, that means a series of things, whether you believe that or not.
Cláudia: If you get typecast as a fundamentalist Christian... You mean, you have an label, right? A label. It's a label. And they
Richard: put a label on people. So now, this guy's a liberal.
Okay, that means he's XXXXXXXX.
Cláudia: This person is, they believe in creationism. So they're fanatical, they believe literally... Extreme right wing, extreme left wing, conspiracy theorists or communists or whatever, or terrorists all over. So everybody's a terrorist.
Richard: Yeah, if you think anything differently, you're a terrorist.
Cláudia: And who are the true terrorists? Who starts the terror in the world? Yeah,
Richard: this is interesting. If you see, there's a film out now called The International with Clive Owen.
It's an exploration of how the banking industry funds both sides of the war in a civil war situation or any kind of war situation. They sell arms and weapons, but this is not how they make the money. They make money on the debt created by stimulating the war. And they make debt from both sides. They make the money from the debt of both sides inside the war, the conflict.
So they're talking about this in the world, but nobody seems to have the consciousness of what to do about it that you're talking about. We get involved in labeling and compartmentalizing and not seeing the
Cláudia: truth. So what's this triggers inside of us? Our paranoia. The basic idea everybody has that the evil thing is coming from outside. Even considering this powerful evil guys who are on the top of the pyramid.
Richard: And by the way, Cláudia, who have meetings, who discuss these factors, this isn't something that's just happening
Gilbert: by chance. These are
Cláudia: movements that are planned, organized, globalization, immigration. All programmed. Continue your thoughts. But I don't want to make people now paranoid with them because this is not our work. Our work is to bring the consciousness of psycho and sociopathology. And and to realize that all this evil that is dominating the world this inverted thought that money and power and prestige are the basic needs of human beings and spirituality left aside and the true Christian principles not the fundamentalists because Christian was never ever a fundamentalist.
He was against the fundamentalists all the time. He
Richard: was against the structure always.
Cláudia: He was always speaking about the Pharisees who were the fundamentalists of the time. So if we would be really Christians, we would have a much, much more tolerant and spiritual attitude that would take away their power to do what they do. If we follow their philosophy, consumer philosophy paranoid philosophy we are feeding there we are feeding them we're doing their game but if we would be more spiritual more into good action and understanding the true metaphysics we would weaken them because we would not fight them directly but we would reinforce ourselves and our and our lives and what we do and the way we live we would reinforce and be independent from them eventually you see.
So our work is not putting people against anyone it's to show that we have inside of ourselves a true enemy that is upside down that is following an inverted philosophy of life, and that we create the biggest troubles for ourselves. And the more we become paranoid and projective against anyone, even against the powerful, even against those who are pulling the strings, this doesn't help.
We become emotional, we lose our... Angry, and we
Richard: lose our reason, our common sense, our means to be more human. This is the mistake a lot of activists make, Cláudia. They make this mistake. They get involved and angry and frustrated. Then they want to lash out without seeing this dialectical point you're making. So you said at the beginning that this situation in Norway, this man who killed 80 or 90 people, horrible situation.
Cláudia: It's a typical example of a person who was led by his emotions.
Richard: Right. Yes, okay. And you said that this has a relationship to us now. So let's come to that. Let's make this dialectical therapeutic aspect, which I love about our show, that we're trying to bring therapy, to calm the situation down. What is this signifying for us individually, this horrible situation in Norway?
What can we take from this in terms of our own
Cláudia: self-understanding? Well, I would do a play role here,
Richard: Richard. Role play.
Cláudia: A role play.
Richard: Yeah, okay, all right.
Cláudia: And ask you, what do you associate this guy and what he did with?
Richard: Okay. Destruction, evil, out of control.
Cláudia: What did he do? Destroy.
Richard: He destroyed young people. Purity. The future. Idealism. Hope. Hope.
So, what
Cláudia: do we do all the time in our lives? We destroy
Richard: hope. We destroy our purity. Our idealism.
Cláudia: Our idealism.
Richard: Our good
Cláudia: actions. We become paranoid. We attack other people that are innocent. Not only outside in the large society, in the broad sense, but we do this in our families, amongst our relationships, in our jobs, with our friends.
Richard: We take away
Cláudia: our opportunities.
We take away.
Richard: We destroy our opportunities.
Cláudia: We pick up bad and negative things to destroy hope and idealism. We say it doesn't work, it's not worthy, so it won't, well, you see.
Richard: Won't make any difference.
Cláudia: Yeah, and we blow up our virtues, our sanity. We blow up our happiness. We blow up our chances to be healthy, balanced, enjoy the life that we could enjoy as much as we could enjoy it.
This
Richard: is something that uh all of us do it's human tendency a
Cláudia: couple's fight for instance okay isn't that a terrorism inside the house isn't that like blowing up our health our mental health our our mental our psychological balance our energies we blow up how
Richard: we eat so often yeah yeah
Cláudia: so we do the same so that's why we feel so much identified with it we do the
Richard: same the same thing obviously not with guns shooting other people but
Cláudia: sometimes even do that
Richard: sometimes we even do that yes the way people
Cláudia: drive the way people um take care of themselves their own lives for instance if you take a car if you ride a car above some speed you are being immoral because you are throwing away the a valuable life which is like your life our lives a life one life has an enormous value in itself and if we treat our lives irresponsibly like this with uh these extremes in sports for instance radical sports or driving a car irresponsibly or driving drugs or taking too much medicines or
Richard: whatever eating improperly fighting having too much hatred because it destroys blow up our system and all this being too aggressive being
Cláudia: too aggressive this is it's it's it's taking away is despising life this is immoral unethical this is the
Richard: same thing that this guy
Cláudia: did the same in in another proportion the same we're back
Richard: in just a moment thinking.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Positive World Radio Network. And we're back soon. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. You know, before the break, Cláudia, you were saying something. I was aware of the experience inside me as you were talking about how we do to ourselves, sometimes to our loved ones, what this guy did in Norway.
In the same way. It's not that saying he was bigger than us. No, it's the same thing because you said every life is precious. Every life is of immense value. So anytime we destroy any aspect of our lives, we're doing exactly the same thing. It's exactly the same energetic attitude as he had killing all these people. That is a phenomenal consideration that you've raised.
Today let's go across the ocean to uh to England. Yeah, Amy Winehouse. Yeah, by the way, uh, I personally am am saddened by her, uh, but the loss of her, because I consider her a talent of a generation. There's one, an Elvis Presley and Amy Winehouse, uh, Billy Holiday, that comes along, you know, very very infrequently. She was enormously talented. If you see pictures of her when she was young, extraordinarily beautiful.
Now
Cláudia: let me ask you something. Okay, do you perceive how much attraction she had, or she manifested in
Richard: some way, she that people
Cláudia: was attracted to her decay, that when she was more beautiful, more healthy, more balanced,
Richard: nobody talked about, nobody talked
Cláudia: about her. That's true. She was not as successful as she became when she started to manifest her destructivity. In fact,
Richard: I remember an award she won in England, a Brit Music Awards, where she won the award after she came out of rehabilitation.
There was an enormous amount of focus on her. Look at this girl. She's overcoming her difficulty and wow, that's incredible. You're right, Cláudia. When she was healthier, there was not an irony so much. Yeah, no
Cláudia: no, same with Michael Jackson. Oh yeah, the
Richard: same. So uh, when people
Cláudia: show, um, look how Amy was in the beginning, how beautiful she was. And then later you can feel even inside of you, if you look at the pictures, some kind of demonic or strange attraction to that horror that you see in the picture. And you say, wow, what a difference she was.
Look, she was against everything and everybody.
Richard: Sending all the pictures out on the internet. Look, look at the difference.
Cláudia: Stasiados.
Richard: Like a surprise, shocked, amazed at the thing.
Cláudia: A big attraction. Look at that. So destruction produces a lot of attraction from people. Yes, because of this inversion we suffer, people are
Richard: like attracted to like,
Cláudia: unconsciously we have flies
Richard: to a light,
Cláudia: we have the same tendency, the same inversion.
We thought Amy was too squared, too boring, just another a kind of normal regular beautifully girl like. So when she became all destroyed, she was different, she was attractive, she was a star, she was a leader. And this happens again and again and again. So it's not difficult for the drug dealers on the top of the the pyramid to control all the young people and the talents and everybody with drugs. And they can control um the the more artistic, the more liberal ones with like heroin, like cocaine, and like those heavy drugs.
But they do control as well the the normal squared people with uh medical drugs, pharmaceutical,
Richard: pharmaceutical drugs,
Cláudia: because it's similar, the effect it's it's not that different. So if you feel some problem, you go directly to your doctor and you complain, and he's saying, no, you don't deserve to suffer this, enjoy your life, take this and take that. So if you are feeling depressed, don't think about it.
Don't even think about the way you are living or don't question. Don't question the habits and the customs and the values of our society and why you are feeling unhappy. Don't question those. But just take those magic pills and you will stop thinking.
Richard: Incredible what you just said. Don't question. It's like we have all these soldiers coming back from the war now who are having a very difficult time readjusting to the society.
And the articles that I'm reading are all saying, well, but we have to help them readjust back into the society. But what about questioning why we're having war? We're not doing, we're not questioning this system.
Cláudia: Everybody now is saying, oh, everybody's depressed. The world is depressed. Depression is a disease that raised so much. So we
Richard: have two sides of the same sword.
Cláudia: We have one side, which is making people think they must take drugs. So to sell antidepressants. Depressive. Depressants?
Richard: Yeah, antidepressants.
Cláudia: Yeah. So this is the way they commercialize antidepressants. Depressants. And another side is, previously, when people were depressed, and everybody, all the time, during all the history of humanity, had depression, because human beings went against their true beings, their true nature, their true essence.
All the time human beings had an inverted society with inverted values and they behaved against their own beings and against their own nature. But when they had those things, they had to, well, they thought, they reflected, they did philosophy, they philosophized, they used their common sense, the reason. And when this started to happen in the late of the 19th centuries, when human rights...
Went up. Declaration of Human Rights. And not only that, but questioning the values of the powerful in society
Richard: started to
Cláudia: increase in such a way that democracy, human rights, and freedom were on the top of our considerations. And changing the way we educated our children not to be small slaves or for this economic and political and philosophical slavery. So when this started to happen in the
Richard: late of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, they already started to think, how will we stop all those artists, intellectuals, women, youngsters, revolutionaries,
Cláudia: revolutionaries to do. How are we going to stop, then shall we kill all of them, how are we going to do.
So they created the program of drugging everybody, and that's what happened. So they have, they profit from this, and they control the brains and the minds, and
Richard: world wars and all these things, depressions. And
Cláudia: we stupid and the people stupid think that an Amy is a contester, like she is doing something against social values, and not that she's a total slave of those people in the top of the pyramid.
She's a total slave working for them all the time and creating a leadership amongst all those youngsters that will lead them to destruction
Richard: and to buy drugs and to consume drugs and to pay the powerful to die. They die and they pay for the death. Incredible to think of her as a member of the establishment in this way. Amazing. But you said something, not as a rebel at all.
No,
Cláudia: not at all.
Gilbert: The rebel is you. You said something that struck me because these are symptoms, like these
kinds of things are symptoms. And the idea we have as human beings is, well, this is the situation we have now, So now we have to deal with it. And we never go to the cause. We don't get to, but wait a minute.
Okay, we have this situation of depression. All right. But that's not right. That's not normal. And we can't just say, well, let's just treat the depression now. We need
Cláudia: to see that this is a symptom that we're very far off what we should be very far away from the true nature of the human being. Our work, Richard, it's revolutionary, as you said, because it brings consciousness.
And there is nothing those people fear the most as consciousness. And not only consciousness about their criminal behavior, socially, economically speaking, but we bring the consciousness of their mental illness. They are mentally and psychologically, emotionally sick, very sick. And this, it's very difficult for them to bear, the consciousness that what they do is against themselves, is against their own balance, against their own usufruto.
Richard: To take advantage of something.
Cláudia: Usufruto da vida. They cannot
Richard: enjoy their lives. They cannot live fully. They are
absolutely slaves of the demons, of Lucifer. They are Lucifer's slaves. And they enjoy destroying other people and destroying themselves. So this is something that is very sick. It's craziness. It's pathology. And this is something that they don't want to see. Because if they really and fully saw, they are going to perceive that they are following the wrong leader.
Cláudia: They are following a loser and not the winner. Right. And in the end of the run, they will be losers because they are already losers and they will become conscious of this. They went against who they were, the true of themselves.
Richard: And so this is for us to understand. We have to stop doing this to ourselves as
Cláudia: we start getting more consciousness.
No, we have to see, to become conscious. Because if we don't become
Richard: conscious, how can we stop? Right, right.
Cláudia: We have to understand this better. We have to become more conscious of this.
Richard: You corrected a very good thing, Cláudia. It's not about stopping. It's about seeing
Cláudia: more. This Norwegian wants to stop things. So what Bush did with this new law, this...
Richard: The Homeland Security Bill.
Cláudia: Yeah, he wanted to stop. Everybody wants to stop things.
Richard: They produce destruction. So we want to conscientize, because a conscious person is free, is liberated. Yes, not stopping, but seeing more deeply. It is very important that we have this consciousness that you're bringing to us on this program every week. You know, in the study of the psychic life of the human being, the first cause for all economic, social, environmental problems, for all types, is a psychological cause.
It's something that's inside. So this is a study that all people should do. Not only psychoanalysts and psychologists and psychiatrists, but what we're trying to do in our program is to help us understand that the human being's neurosis, madness even, the problems that are within each one of us and inside every citizen need to be understood. As we're talking about today and looking at the situation in Norway and with Amy Winehouse, these things have relationships to us, too, internally.
So each of us should try to look at the primal causes for problems in our lives and try to look at these things in terms of the situation in humanity.
My email, joneshealing at gmail.com, is important for you, too. We have a reading group every Tuesday evening that I could invite some of you to.
If you're listening and interested in learning more about what we do, we have a free reading group on Tuesday evenings, and you can let me know if you're interested in that. I'll get you the information about it, joneshealingatgmail.com. This question that we're dealing with in our society today of the false economy falling apart, of the arrogance of the human being, these really need to be understood better.
And I don't know anybody who's developing that science as much as is Norberto Keppe. So we need to see that the process that's falling apart here, the economic process, the economic system that's falling apart, is not the real economy. It's the fictitious society that's crumbling, not the authentic one. It's the buying and selling of materials, the economy that's produced by work. That's the real economy.
And so what's falling apart is the thing of speculation, not exactly the central economy. It's the Wall Street economy, which is a financial process, but this is falling apart. The process that only existed on paper. All these companies that play the stock market thought they would make fabulous profits, but this was only on paper. This is collapsing now all around us. And I really hope that we can begin to understand that and see that better.
And I really hope that our program can help you in understanding that a little bit better. My name is Richard Lloyd Jones. I am the host, along with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, of our program, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Bye for now.
