Richard Lloyd Jones: There's an old Chinese phrase that goes, it's better to be a dog in peaceful times than a man in a time of chaos. Wishful thinking, some may call that, for it's difficult to see peaceful times at any moment in human history. Most of us with a bit of life experience hearken back to when times were easier and end up moralizing to any who will listen that our times back then were superior.
And while that may be superficially true, it's not all that helpful. And certainly doesn't make the young folk feel any better. In fact, young and old may just end up pointing fingers at each other as to who's to blame for this world as it is. But we'd like to dip our feet into those tumultuous waters in this podcast to suggest that all of those lamentations and blame apportioning miss the fundamental point.
We've been on an inverted path for millennia. We've literally reached the end of the road. Can any sense be made of the correct way to go now? Love, consciousness, and the troubled world. Today, on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Susan Berkley, Gilbert Gambucci, and I conduct a reading group and workshop weekly with an enthusiastic group of North Americans.
And these make for lively considerations of Dr. Keppe's profound work. What's more, those sessions are recorded. Well, I've been dipping into this rich resource over the past few weeks. We've been doing these sessions for a few years now. And here are some cogent comments from a recent session where Susan Berkley and Gilbert and I consider the wisdom from Dr. Keppe's work and how it relates to all of us living today.
So now it's time, Rich, to unveil a very exciting document which is a uh the the basement tapes, the raw unedited version of a future chapter of my book about inversion. So what I'm doing is I'm interviewing all of my trilogical friends and this is an excerpt from a psychoanalyst friend of ours, Leo Lima. He's just really I think very clear at explaining Dr.
Keppe's concepts and especially inversion. So I thought since we're studying inversion, I thought that I would pull the transcript of my conversation with him and we'd start going through it. And this might take us a couple of weeks, but he gives a very clear ABC kind of explanation of what Keppe's concept of inversion is. So I asked him, how does inversion manifest in the psychological life.
And he said, when Dr. Keppe developed his methodology, he was looking for the root cause of why human beings engage in destructive behaviors, why they steal, are lazy, wage war. And he concluded that beneath the surface, people see these actions as advantageous. For example, a person who steals believes he's doing something good for himself, that it's better than working, that if you're aggressive, it's good for you, and that it's a disadvantage to be kind, gentle, and friendly.
And those are just a few examples. It's
Richard: not always easy to recognize these inverted ideas we have, that to do something wrong is a positive thing or to do something correct is kind of sucky and nice guys finish last, love hurts, you'll be stepped on. Yeah there's lots of it that shows up in our pop culture in music lyrics and things like that.
If you love you're making yourself vulnerable, you're going to get you could get
hurt. Women who love too much, yes. Love yourself before you can love someone else,
Richard: the idea that you have to fill yourself with love first before you can give it. This is an incorrect idea, not not just inverted idea, an incorrect metaphysical idea but it's inverted too. So
the way that I see it, I think that for example sometimes we're in a love relationship, uh doing do we and we have to do a lot for the other person. And you know I've never had kids but I can imagine it's, I want to say the word stressful.
There's a lot you got to do all the time for other people. And then you have your, and maybe he's had a lot of children, grandchildren. And then of course you have your spouse, and then you've got maybe some elderly people, and then you've got work and you're just doing, doing, doing for everybody. And you're like exhausted all the time. And you're feeling like there's nothing left for me.
I'm exhausted. Love just, it just the care being a caregiver takes everything out of me and that's not to say it's not difficult, it absolutely is, you know, and some people have very difficult caregiving situations. But in concept loving is always we, it is self-replicating, you know. You can't give love away, you can't give too much love away because we're comprised of love and the more we give the more it generates and the more we get, that's the true idea.
So the inverted idea is a metaphysical inversion that we have about energy in general, because we derive our energy from matter in this upside down world, right? We burn things, we blow things up to get energy. People think, oh, I got to exercise more. Not that exercise is bad, but we're always looking for that perfect food that's going to give me the most energy.
And so therefore, those things do have a limited source, because we're pulling matter, as we know in the world today, and we're running out of energy, material energy, and we're always trying to find more places to dig and drill and all of those things. So we tend to impute, if that's the right word, the same to ourselves and how our feelings and our emotions and how we behave in relation to others.
If
Richard: you think of loving people, you never think of people who are giving love for themselves. You think of people who are sharing love with others, who are helping. You think of a loving person, it's a person who's loving in action because the essence of life is pure action. It's good action. So love has to be something in action. It can't be something that implodes first.
It has to be in expression because that's the nature of ourselves is to be in action. So if we're giving, then we're also receiving. But it has to be this dialectic. Otherwise, we're going to be, it's like a short circuit inside. It's all vibrating inside me, but it's not circulating. So it doesn't have the completion process, which is to give and receive.
You need to have this cycle happening in order for love to be expressed.
You just said something, Rich, that I would like, we need to pause on that and expand that. So all the ways that, that's like hoarding your gifts and your talents within. And it's very dangerous. And I think we can give lots of examples for that. I know a musician in particular and several that they just sit at home and play all day and play, play, play.
And when it comes and they get OK, pretty good. And when it comes to performing in front of other people, they're terrified or they shy away from that because they feel it's in their brain. They might go, I'm not good enough or whatever, but then it's hard for them to share their gifts and their talents with other people. And they're not realizing they'll actually get better the more they share and the more they give.
And that's just one
Richard: small example. Yeah. It's energetic, Susan, because the process is, I mean, how can we really have self-esteem if we don't esteem others? There's that part of the process needs to happen. Self-esteem, self-confidence, self-expression needs to come from giving, from putting things into action. It's kind of like anything in life, people have the idea that if I use it too much, I'm going to run out, you know, like the gas in my car.
We have this kind of very materialistic idea because we don't perceive, we don't recognize that the field of energy is unlimited. It's a vast, it's unlimited capacity. We have, the more we love, the more capacity for love we have. It's not that it goes away. It doesn't diminish. The more we develop our talent, the more our talent develops. I mean, this is just the way it is.
We have to express that way. I remember I had some friends when I was a kid and their parents bought a new sofa and they didn't take the plastic off the sofa. I remember even when I was 10 years old, remembering that and thinking, wow, that's weird. Welcome
to the 60s. We had that,
Richard: too. We had that. We had that stuff in our house.
The idea was that if we use the couch, it's going to wear out. And, of course, in a material sense, that's what happens. But we are not just material. We have an energetic component. And that energetic aspect that we're accessing is unlimited. It's the love, the beauty, the goodness of the universe. So it's not limited at all. The more we're in good action, the more energy we're accessing, the healthier we are, even the younger we stay because we're engaging our full energy sources, capturing more energy, which keeps our cells more in harmony so there's less atrophy and less free radicals and all those kind of things.
These are all factors that are energetic, not material. It's not a material aspect. We are energetic beings. Love is an action, not a feeling. It's love in action. It has to be an action. I mean, a loving person is a person who gives, who shares what they have. So a person, a performer who's more desiring of sharing their talent or their capacity, they have more affection.
They're not so narcissistic. They're willing to give to share with others. And that makes them, that gives them more capacity automatically. Mimi,
go ahead. I was wanting to ask y'all what you thought about inversion being with ageism. And what I mean by that is I was raised that we always had the elderly with us, always. My grandparents, we were always around them.
We watched the aging process. We shared everything together. And I had my parents in my home when they passed, so they wouldn't be alone. And I owned an elderly company for 10 years, and I saw that children, the younger generation, were more apt to put them in homes. I feel that in my heart so strongly, and I was wondering what you thought about the inversion of this.
Richard: Don't you think it represents a sort of decadence in our social ability that we've deteriorated in our ability to care and respect? So we've become worse in that sense, more concerned about ourselves and concerned only about our own needs. So in a way, we've become sicker in that sense in our society. Our society has become sicker. I think you're pointing to that perfectly.
That's true. The idea that we're evolving, we're advancing. No, we're not. We're getting farther and farther away from the truth. We were better in many senses in the past than we are today. Even if you think about water quality and air quality and all of the food quality, all of those things were much worse now than we were 150 years ago. We have not figured out how to produce and distribute and grow food in a superior way.
We've grown it in an inferior way. So we've become much more decadent in many of these senses, especially socially. I think that's really true. You're pointing to something that's really evident, I think. And it really, it's something to really point the focus on. You know, when Dr. Keppe went to the United States in the 80s, he wrote books about this, about the decadence that he was seeing in the societal structures that we've produced as human beings.
He started to recognize that, particularly in the United States, which was the most advanced country in the world at that time. And he was starting to recognize that in many ways we were deteriorating our intelligence, even our talent, our capacity. Now we're farming everything out. We're outsourcing everything to the cell phone. We're becoming worse in many human ways. We're becoming worse, not better.
We've become corrupted. We've become corrupted from the nature of life. We've cut God out of all the institutions of Western society. And we can't have a better society, we can't have a healthy society, if we cut the creator, the source of everything, out of science, out of economics, out of politics, out of all these areas. We're never going to be able to have a good result by doing that.
It's a fundamental problem, maybe the fundamental problem of the human being. And Cláudia wrote a chapter in our book, The Modern Relevance of God, of how we're hungry for God, for spirit, for a spiritual perspective, because the human being is spiritual. And our total focus on the material, almost complete focus on materialism, has caused an enormous separation from the source of our own life.
And we suffer because of that, even if we don't recognize it. Our responsibility here, the way to be here is to somehow be linked to the source. And that we do through good action, through good thoughts and deeds and pure action, doing good. This is how we make this connection with this energetic source. And that helps us here. Even people are trying to stay young through material means, you know, there's a lot of plastic surgery and Botox and those kind of things and people taking melatonin and trying to, you know, stop the free radicals and people taking infusions of blood from young people and all these crazy things that are going on.
Uh but the best way to be youthful is to be out of time and space as much as possible, is to have this connection to this eternal life force because that's where it's outside time and space now. So we have we have the the capacity to do that by linking connecting to that source of life in our actions, in our attitudes, in our work, all of those things
at any minute.
All right, well, let me keep reading. I'll read a little bit more, Rich. So I said, so people are not aware of their inversions, are they, Leo? These are, as Dr. Keppe calls it, inconscientized attitudes. So let's talk a little bit about that. We are barely aware of our inner lives aren't we and he said there's a difference between our rational life, our logical thoughts and our feelings.
So rationally we know for example that if we don't study we won't pass the exam, no one disputes that. But people have feelings they don't perceive clearly, for example that studying is bad, so they think that if they don't study everything will be okay and they'll pass the exam. But this inversion is not rational. So we're inverted at the level of our feelings and emotions.
Take smoking, for example. On some level, smokers think smoking is wonderful. It's relaxing. It helps them focus. It relieves anxiety. It helps them lose weight. And if they don't smoke, they'll become anxious and feel horrible. Rationally, they know smoking is harmful, but deep inside, at the level of their inverted emotions, they think it's great. I had a teacher in college who used to give classes on the dangers of smoking, and he used to smoke during class right there in front of us while he was showing us pictures of blackened lungs.
Rationally, he knew smoking was harmful, but at the level of his inverted feelings, he thought it was okay. And I said, maybe he unconsciously wanted to destroy his lungs. And I'll just read what Leo said, and then we'll open it for discussion. It seems that way, doesn't it? Inversion is neither rational nor logical. It occurs on a level we cannot perceive or feel.
Rationally, people know what's right and what's wrong, what's good and what's bad. But deep inside, We have a lot of inversions we don't perceive. These feelings are unconscious.
Richard: Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it? And I'm just going to take it a little bit one step further, Susan. It's, yes, that there's an unconscious desire to destroy. But I think the human being actually, I think we actually have more problem with goodness.
I think the human being's problem is with good feelings and love. I think we're uncomfortable with that. I think we do things to diminish happiness and goodness in our lives, almost like we can't tolerate those things. So we have these attitudes where we take pleasure in going against what's correct. You see this even in little kids, you know, if you give kids, kids never want to do what they're supposed to do, right?
Even at young ages, we see this inversion. You tell them to eat their vegetables. They don't want to eat their vegetables. They don't want to go to bed. They don't want to brush their teeth. They don't want to have a shower. They don't want to do the things that they're supposed to do, their homework, whatever it is. The things that are good, that are necessary, that we know we need to do, we have this aversion to that.
So the human being actually rejects happiness, rejects goodness, rejects this paradise that we live in, unconsciously. It's not conscious, of course. But I think this is It's really what's operating, too, in this area of smoking or drugs or eating too much or any of these things that are bad for us. It's kind of the pleasure we take in doing the wrong thing, in going against what we know to be correct.
That's where the pleasure is. The pleasure is not in getting sick. That's the consequence of the bad action. But the pleasure is in doing the wrong thing. We want to do the wrong thing and have a good result from that. That's the real crazy idea. But I think the human being has a lot of problems with even feelings of love, feelings of affection.
We reject feeling good, even, and being happy. And this is not very well conscientized. Most of us would say, oh, no, that's not me. I want to be happy. I want to be healthy. But we do many things against our own happiness all the time. So there seems to be a discomfort with the goodness and the truth and the beauty that we have.
Wasn't created by me. My talent doesn't come from me. So I work against my talent or nature doesn't come from me. So we got to improve nature or, you know, modify it in some way to make it better, to make it more palatable, to make it more monetary. We're constantly working to manipulate or change the reality that we live inside. So it's like the human being, like we can't tolerate too much goodness.
Maybe this teacher really, Leo's teacher really loved teaching these students and he chose to smoke to get rid of that feeling. Yeah, he
Richard: couldn't tolerate all the good feelings he
had from tea. Yeah, yes, yes, right. And, you know, and I think a lot of smokers have to smoke after a meal and that doesn't make any sense at all. So that would be to destroy the pleasure that they just had eating with others, enjoying the food, right?
They have to destroy that pleasure.
Richard: And even smoking, I think, takes away our ability to taste food, doesn't it? I've never smoked, but doesn't it diminish even the ability to taste things? So there's a whole sort of attitude going against goodness displayed in all of these things. And that's the real inversion of the human being is that goodness somehow is intolerable or I can't tolerate too much.
I mean, you think about war. We have to have war in order to get peace. You know, that doesn't even make any sense, right? I mean, the peace happens when you stop the war. So there's a lot of inversions around that. And there's a lot of envy that comes up, too, that wants to destroy. There was a whole movement in the 1800s, you know, of development, of progress, artistically, scientifically.
All the incredible inventions that happened at the end of the 19th century beginning of the 20th century, all of the things that were being developed then, it was an incredible movement of development and progress for humanity and then came the first world war to completely may
I ask ask a question do you mind. Um y'all may not even want to talk about this but I've been and my heart has been hurting this week over our political situation.
And in my opinion, it's an inversion of what's happening. And I don't know what to do personally. I feel out of control. And I don't like that feeling, of course, but I feel vulnerable. And I want to be able to do something besides what's in my personal life. Perhaps that's all I can do with my grandchildren explaining what's going on. But I'm very sad and I'm very angry at the same time.
And I know I just feel like there's a big inversion happening with America. And I want to know what y'all think I can do personally to what we all can do personally to help this situation through, I don't want to wait four years. So anyway that's it, what do you
Richard: associate with what's going on, not not what's happening,
what do
Richard: you associate with
what you
Richard: see happening.
I
associate sadness for what I was brought up to believe America was, with the Statue of Liberty holding that flame and saying the words that it says, and come all people and all of us be together, no matter what color or creed or whatever, of being Americans and being strong and loving together. And we have become so far from that. I'm very upset.
Richard: Isn't it important to see how the state of the world as it is today? Because this problem that you're alluding to is not happening only in America. It's certainly happening there, but it's happening around the world. The world has gone down a one-way road that's leading us to total destruction. That's the state of the world. Isn't it important to see that, Mimi?
Because Americans have not seen that. And to see the state of the world we're in, you're facing something you don't want to see, you've had an idealized view of yourself, of the world. And when you see the state of the world, how the world is, this is very, very important consciousness. Because I think the human being is really alienated from what's going on.
I think people think that everything's okay. And now suddenly, when we start to see things going on, on both sides, all over the world. We start to see these manifestations, things happening. It's a big wake-up call that the world is inverted. We are inverted, and not just at the political level either. And there's always different sides of this story, and we have to try to see this as what's happening spiritually.
The spirit of truth is moving, and it brings to the surface all of the distortions that we have going on. So we need to pay attention. This consciousness is something that's very, very useful for us. And being shocked by it or angry about it means that you're not recognizing that in your own life, how things are not the way you thought they were in your own world and in the world in general.
That's the only way. I'm here, too, and have had feelings. But the only way to see it rationally, as Leo was alluding to here, that our inversions, our inner life, how we feel and our feelings are not rational. The only way to make sense, to be a better citizen on whatever side we're at, to absorb the news, to process it, is to process it within us first, Mimi.
So like you were saying, I wrote down, you said many things, but a feeling of sadness. So it's important to go deeper about those feelings. And that will help you see things more clearly to process it. And even, you know, we should be active as citizens on either side, no matter what. We should have civic awareness and civic engagement. So first comes the consciousness, the interiorization, and then you'll know what to do.
What you can do what you should do sometimes it's nothing, sometimes there's something, but first we always have to look at it in ourselves to avoid shouting matches to getting you know out of control to be nervous be stressed about it, that's always the first step, what's going on inside. The question of a civic engagement like internal engagement because um at two things from every single human being is going to contribute things that are good and things that are inverted.
That's to be expected of all of us. We do things that are in benefit of others and we do things that is not in benefit of others without perceiving it, where we all have this pathology. But the one thing that I would like to contribute is that you can't expect economically powerful people or political people to create a genuine brotherhood among peoples.
They just don't have that capacity. They can't do it. So you shouldn't expect it from them. So this gives like a certain responsibility for us. Yeah. And this is not a political comment that Gilbert just made. I have never felt so civically engaged in my life. I've never read the paper more carefully. I want to know. I want to figure out what's going on and form my own opinions and not escape.
When people are telling me, some younger people like my niece was like, gee, I think I might move to Europe. I can't take it. And I'm like, no, wait a minute. You're 40 years old. Don't you want to stay and fight? Come on fight or let's let's reclaim our country, let's do what's right or if you want to support what side it doesn't matter, be engaged, you're an American, don't alienate, stay engaged for whatever you believe in and get more knowledge and understand as Gilbert was saying uh the pathology of power which always comes on any side done.
At any time, like he's saying, everybody is inverted. And the more power you have, the more difficult it is, the less likely perhaps. Now, some great powerful people were very interiorized and did a lot of good for humanity, and others were not. So it's a human problem. It's not a political problem. It's a human problem.
Richard: What we see, Susan, is a real need for real leaders who are conscious of their own pathology That's right.
So they can bring that into the world. The analysis of what's going on needs to be understood from this question of pathology of power, of inversion, of envy, of all of these things that we're talking about. We need, just like we have in our company in Brazil, we have group analysis to deal with the pathology of the individuals in the company. There has to be a way to control that.
So you need more consciousness of the people, not less consciousness. And anger and sadness and frustration and leaving the country. This is not consciousness. This is censorship, a type of censorship. We need to have more consciousness of what's going on and then respond in a spiritually conscious way in our own worlds to bring that energy into the planet because that's what's necessary.
If we're polarizing more and more and more, that's exactly what the system of power wants. Uh they want people to be polarized. They want people to be complaining about
this guy or that guy. No, it's intentional. Because to polarize and marginalize people you can control them. So we can't let that happen for whatever side you believe in. And this is then there's one other complication which is the our sources of information are inverted
Richard: very
much.
That's a very corrupted real problem. Because here we're trying to figure out what the heck is going on in a critical situation. And you got to read like six different sources online and have the enough. There's a great saying in Yiddish, it's seichel, which means inner wisdom to know what's happening. We get from analysis. So it's a combination of intuition and knowing, but you have to have your eyes open now more than ever.
We always should have, but now more than ever, you have to now deepen your understanding. Dr Keppe left so much for us and continues to deepen your understanding. Participate, get smarter, get wiser and get that consciousness. And that spreads energetically for each one of us that accepts consciousness. We we don't even we can't even conceive of the impact that this has in in our communities and and the world and the planet.
I think it would be interesting uh if you guys were to participate in the international congress of this science that we're holding in June. Because the theme is conscientizing inversion. So imagine many speakers bringing up what they perceive to be inverted. This is going to be a great consciousness that will energetically modify things uh for the for the good. Consciousness is
Richard: very powerful you guys.
It's very powerful. The world changes. What did Martin Luther King say? There's nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come. And the idea of disinversion has come. It's time to conscientize this thing of inversion. And then by enough people becoming conscious of that, that begins to spread energetically in the whole planet and begins to offer this peace and this justice.
And these things start to happen energetically. Not through the system of economic power. English biologist Rupert Sheldrake talks about this morphogenetic resonance, he calls it, whereby if enough members of a species become conscious of something, all the other members become conscious automatically. It's something that could give us hope when things seem so difficult and messed up, a ray of sunshine in a seemingly singularity bleak world.
But it's not so. Enough of us resonating with the Creator's goodness, truth, and beauty allows that reality. To blossom forth joneshealing at gmail.com our email. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
Else's Head.
Our programs are also affiliated with the STOP the Destruction of the World association bringing consciousness of the root causes of human problems since 1992 in the
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: United States.
There is a hidden government.
Richard: In 1985, Norberto Keppe published an explosive analysis of the pathology of power.
Cláudia: The new world order that they are trying to implant goes totally against ethical principles.
Richard: 28 years later, Liberation of the People is still the most relevant book available that exposes our inverted socioeconomic structure and who's responsible for it.
Cláudia: They are like sharks and you are like fishes in an ocean.
Richard: The people's reaction to Keppe's book was enthusiastic. The powerful hated it.
Cláudia: They were able to do a master cover-up.
Richard: Norberto Keppe's book was buried, and the warning went out to the media.
Cláudia: You are never, ever to mention the work of Norberto Keppe.
Richard: Now, Norberto Keppe's timely book is available again. For your free download of Norberto Keppe's Liberation of the People, go to liberationofthepeople.org.
Richard:
Richard: Network.
