This is Healing Through Consciousness. In this unethical, unfair world, everybody loses. Everybody loses. Everybody, from the top to the bottom. It's an evil domination. It's the evil government ruling us. A spiritual evil government. Today, a conversation with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, living in the spiritual world. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. It
Richard Lloyd Jones: was the police back in the early 80s, I guess, who approached the subject of us being spirits in a material world, a typically spare and rhythm-driven track that was catchy and infectious.
They were an interesting band. But while they were observing the bleak political economic situation we lived in, it may have been no more than the complaining of youth searching for an answer but with no solutions to offer. After all, criticism is not change, is it? I remember back in that time, going through my own social protest period, writing anti-nuke radio ads and joining numerous environmental groups in the naive belief that made me part of the solution and not part of the problem.
I'm much more sophisticated about social change today, recognizing that the evil we accuse the system of power of resides in us all. And especially, I'm more cognizant that there's a formidable spiritual influence on top of us constantly. And most of us have no idea about that. So let's dive into that aspect of spiritual wisdom. So we wanted to talk about ideals versus idealization.
There's a new construction here in São Paulo on the other side of the street from where we live, the other side of the shopping center. One of my students is the architect who's coordinating this whole thing. She took me over there yesterday. The grand opening is tonight and she showed me the show suite, you know the one that they're going to use to sell all these apartments in the tower.
And it's about 300 square meters, maybe you know 350 square meters, not so big. And you know a nice looking apartment and they want 40 million reais for this apartment. 40 million, that's about 10 million Canadian dollars. Wow. For one apartment. And if it's on the top floor, it's 80 million. It's double that. And so I just asked her, I said, wow, that's a lot of money for a place like this.
She said, but there's people with that kind of money. And I said, and all the guys working here, the guys who are building this structure, they're building a five-star hotel in this tower with these very exclusive apartments. What are they making? And they're making like 2,500, 3,000 a month. That's like, you know, a thousand dollars a month, something like that, maybe a little bit less.
And I said, don't you think it's strange that the people who are building the building get nothing and the people who are having it built are going to receive billions from this production? Don't you think that's strange? She said, it's absolutely. The people who do the work, it's always been like this, of course, but the people who do the work receive the least amount of the resources of the situation, right?
Of the economy. So the economy is being fed by the people doing the work and the people sitting there at the top are reaping all the benefits.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Yeah, but on the other hand, do you see that the benefits are just an illusion? It's an illusory world, this one. They live in a bubble. Illusion. They are illusionists. They are mistaken. They are totally mistaken.
If they had billions in their bank accounts, what is the worth of that? So they are being mistaken by something or someone behind this structure. Because it's totally, it's an existence totally upside down. And all human beings, Richard, all human beings have the same soul, are similar, have the same essence. We have the same essence. And color of the skin and the social class, even cultural experiences and traditions and academic knowledge, this is secondary in some way because our essence, our souls, are the most important aspect in ourselves.
So this is something that day by day, every day, I'm becoming more and more conscious of this perspective that Keppe brings in his science. We are not the evolution of the monkeys. We are not coming from the animals. We did not develop to become human beings like rational animals. Animals. No, we fell. And we fell from a dimension that was absolutely spiritual.
And our souls are still the most important part of our beings. Our essence is mostly our souls. Soul. Psychic is soul. And because of this blindness we do not perceive this. We are immersed in a sensorial material five senses kind of world and civilization and perception. We are in reality living interacting all the time in the spiritual dimension. And something very negative happens mostly in the 20th century and this happened also in many churches.
They do not consider this reality. They tend to say we are here for just a period a trial or something and then after we die we enter in another dimension which is the spiritual the transcendental. And this is a wrong perspective an inversion. We are already here living in this same dimension as spirits live. We are living in the world of spirits and this is not hocus pocus, this is not superstition, this is reality, this is science.
And if humanity does not wake up to consider this reality. Even though people cannot really see and sense and smell all the time this dimension, we are immersed in this dimension. We are souls living in a spiritual dimension caught in time and space.
Richard: You know what I like about what you've done? You've expanded the picture where I was getting kind of this moralistic finger-wagging idea, you know, how could these rich people exploit the workers, this kind of materialistic view.
And you've expanded it that all of us are suffering because of this, including the people who are thinking they're getting all the benefits, right? This is a really important distinction you're making.
Cláudia: In this unethical, unfair world, everybody loses.
Richard: Everybody loses.
Cláudia: Everybody, from the top to the bottom. Everybody loses. It's an evil domination. It's the evil government ruling us. A spiritual evil government.
And this happens just because we are blind to this real dimension. We are interacting, living, realistically living every day. So even small things of the everyday life, Richard, that we see in our therapies, there are not any negative feeling, any neurosis, syndromes.
Richard: These syndromes, these
Cláudia: neurotic syndromes, obsessive compulsive. All of this, and not only this, but the simple life, everyday life, during the day, during the night, during the dreams, every time, all the time, we feel bad.
It's because we are linking, we are interacting, we are listening. It's like coming inside of us, the energies. Because we don't see them, because we don't perceive them with the five senses, we are hostages of this spiritual dimension, evil.
Richard: We're following spiritual orientations even when we can't see or perceive
Cláudia: it. Absolutely, absolutely. We have also, and mostly, the divine dimension. But there is a difference, Richard, between the divine dimension, which are the angels and the good spirits, and mostly God, with this negative and evil dimension.
We have a mixture here in our life, in this humanity. We have this blend of, in this transcendental life, we have good and evil spirits interacting here and now and today with us, every day, in the past and now, all the time.
Richard: And in the case of evil, it's like an imposition, right? Yes, this
Cláudia: is the difference. They are like criminals. They are psychopaths.
Psychopaths, they are all the time planning how to destroy us, how to attack. And they have this joy in seeing us suffering.
Richard: That's a heavy idea, isn't it? Like celebrating almost.
Cláudia: Celebrating. Oh, my God.
Richard: In German, there
Cláudia: is a word to say this, the joy to see the suffering.
Richard: Yeah, this is... Schadenfreude. The pleasure in seeing the suffering of another. They have one word for that.
They recognize.
Cláudia: And now you can name this with a word in German. And it's very similar to what we understand about envy. And the envious attitudes. Like rejoicing with other people's unhappiness and pain. And this is the world of evil. The world of evil spirits and they have fun and they enjoy and if they cannot destroy us and if they just would like see us being happy they couldn't stand being here.
If we would be loyal to goodness beauty and truth they would not bear being here. So we have
Richard: a professor who's been spreading your books and Dr. Keppe's books in his university, and he's lately been receiving a little bit of criticism from some of the women who don't like your book, Women on the Couch. I'm thinking of it in this light now.
This is like a spiritual go there, go there and create problems for this guy, who's trying to do something very beautiful to show his students this deep psychological, therapeutic, spiritual work of you and Dr. Keppe. And it's like instigating them, go, go
Cláudia: there. All the time.
Richard: This is how I see it now.
Cláudia: Pawns of the Game.
Richard: Pawns of the Game. That's a great book.
William, who's the writer? William Cooper.
Cláudia: But there is this Pawns of the Game above. Yeah. Our rulers. Right. Human rulers. Right. We have the world of spirits, which are much worse. And people do not consider this anymore and the way the churches as I said before are dealing with this is too naive for themselves either. And the demons entered the church even and they are causing an enormous confusion and um split schisma, how do you say this, it's like a
Richard: it's like Like a
Cláudia: chasm
Richard: difference, yeah, like a chasm between...
Inside the church. Inside the church.
Cláudia: Yeah, and between religions and all. So I understand, Richard, that it may be one day, and it seems that this day is coming, when people will start to see, because the energy somehow will increase, The good energy, the godly energy will increase in this planet. And people will start to see and to hear and to smell and to feel better the dimension we are living here and now, the world of spirits.
And people will get like, they will blow up. It's a mind-blowing situation for many people. They are not prepared for that. This
Richard: chasm you mentioned, this is a way of describing the polarization that's happening on the planet. So like a split, you know, splitting people apart, right? Men against women, blacks against whites, jews against everybody else, or everybody else against the jews, or whatever it is. It's this, you know, uh, serbs against croatians, hutus versus
Cláudia: tutsis. Divide to govern, right? Yeah, divide to govern.
But I want to say something that is very practical. There is this thing of idealism and idealization, how do we see the difference here in Analytical Trilogy cap is science. We do not live without ideals. Our essence is perfection good beautiful and truthful perfection. This is what we were created for so our essence drives us to the best the biggest the infinite to be with god in his glory.
This is our essence to live glory with god
Richard: glorification
Cláudia: yeah. But after we were deceived by this spiritual evil beings we started to like our existence became like an upside down inverted existence where all the values are inverted. So we we make thousands of mistakes maybe seven serious mistakes per day. The best person does seven serious mistakes per day so our existence here is a big mistake.
The way it is organized we are immersed in sickness in suffering injustice mistakes right
Richard: in error
Cláudia: mistakes in pathology we pathologists all around and within us. So it became like unbearable having this essence that wants the perfection and living in existence upside down and leaving behind and acting against perfection. So this became like unbearable for many people because they have many ideas, many desires, many actions that are totally imperfect.
And then their inner selves cry for perfection. So what to do? So this is the idealization and the ideals. The idealization is a sick form of wanting to see the world, other people, and ourselves as perfect. Like
Richard: a compensation for what's going on in some way?
Cláudia: It's a censorship towards consciousness of all the imperfections. We can't stand seeing so many imperfections. So the less you bear seeing the mistakes, the more neurotic you will become and you will suffer more, becoming a prey of these evil spirits.
Because they accuse us all the time. They accuse you all the time of all the imperfections. They first lead you to the imperfection, and then they accuse you. So it's hell, Richard. We built a hell here. We are allowing a hell to be reality in this planet. So I'm going to give a practical example. I have a client, a new client. She calls me from Germany, where perfection is a neurotic behavior of themselves.
They are not perfect, but they want to see everybody and everything like perfect. And so this is a fight. It's a censored society and very evil in this sense and very dangerous. We saw what happened with this idealization of a perfect humanity, a perfect human being that they would build up a perfect race. So this is a big expression of the sickness, the sick idealization.
So she's there and lately she is being caught in this perfectionistic behavior and mentality which is absolutely sick. So since she wakes up in the morning until the evening, she like gets all the time being afraid and fear of but if this happens and if that happens. And now my daughter is sick, what is going to happen to her? And if a war comes to Europe, what should I do? And I can't speak German because when I'm trying to learn German I'm caught with this tremendous terror of speaking German and making mistakes in such a way that my mind got like frozen.
And the more I see this difficulty and the time for me to pass the exam to show Germans that I'm learning their language to stay here, I need that I'm married with a german guy. So she's becoming frozen with this perfectionism and this is very very sick. Wow so all the time she's accusing herself how negative she is how wrong she does how slowly she's learning slowly
Richard: and she
Cláudia: wouldn't she's a dumb person she would never learn and the children and this and that.
So she has no defenses from these attacks coming from the spiritual world that she's living in we are living
Richard: they're accusing her all the
Cláudia: time yeah right. And so what does she need to do understand this better wake up understand the process, diagnose when is a good inspiration coming from God. Because she says, I confess my sins all the time. I repent all the time.
I talk to God all the time. I'm guilty. I'm guilty. I asked her, are you sure you're talking to God, the true God? Because God is always comfort, consolation. What is this God you are talking to? And she's becoming more and more like but how can I do, what do I do what do I do and then we have to go now little by little and presenting her This new science, it's not a superstition.
Because we don't see things, because everybody put this as a superstition, we will not give up of treating this as a scientific subject. Because this is science, and if we do not perceive this, we will witness the end of life, human life, and even all lives in the planet. So it's like an urgent thing, Richard. Now, which countries, which peoples are ready to understand this?
I don't know. I don't know. I suppose those who are more attached to matter, material life.
Richard: This could be people in any country, right?
Cláudia: In any country. It
Richard: could be people who are more open to this spiritual discussion. It could be anywhere, right? Yes. I came from Canada. It's a pretty materialistic world, and I'm very interested in this. I see with my Brazilian students, although there's a spirituality here, there's a lot of materialism, too.
So it's not the nation.
Cláudia: Money, sex, social prestige, alienation, all material, as if we are living in a world of five senses, and that's it. And then after death…
Richard: Then we'll think about our spiritual
Cláudia: life. And we will touch and live and interact with spirits. But here, it's
Richard: here and now. And in the future, it'll be automatically. Yeah. Which is really,
Cláudia: really naive, isn't it?
Automatically, we'll suddenly be in the spiritual world. No, we are in the spiritual world. Oh, sorry. We will live.
Richard: We will be. We are and we'll still be. No, but the inversion is that in the future, I'll be in the spiritual world. Not now. I'll be in the spiritual world in the future, and it'll be perfect because it'll be
Cláudia: natural. Because the spiritual world that we will be in the future will be different from what we live now and will be divine.
Some of them even discredit the idea that we could have a negative experience beyond death as well. But they think okay, so I'm here, I am living, I'm I'm eating, I'm having my my family or my life, I have my sexual pleasures, yeah pleasures,
Richard: and I have
Cláudia: everything here. So I will enjoy it as much as I can because this is life and then in the future we will think about spirituality.
But my god we are spiritual now. We are in the world of spirits now, but we don't perceive. And this is torturing us. This is leading us to chaos. It's because we do not perceive, it's leading us to chaos.
Richard: So, I hope this podcast helps us to recognize what's going on. We're open to your comments and suggestions, of course. JonesHealing at gmail.com, our email.
Let me know how you're dealing with all this. And do spread our podcast through your social network. That's how we grow. Healing Through Consciousness is available wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Talk to you next time on Healing Through Consciousness.
