Richard Lloyd Jones: It's a dangerous world out there. Viruses are poised to attack us if we're unlucky enough to choose the wrong sexual partner. There are dangerous hormones in the meat, chemically ripened bananas, and don't even mention the perils lurking in a microwave potato. What's to be done? Well, as always, it appears our solution lies between our ears. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, we'll look at our minds and our immune system.
But first, an update. I'm still giving away copies of Norberto Keppe's extraordinary book, Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power. This is a great introduction to Keppe's work on the links between his leading-edge explorations into the human psyche and how this knowledge can be applied to social structures. Fascinating stuff. Keppe's books, in my opinion, are the most important written in the past century.
Write me at rich at richjonesvoice.com if you'd like more information on that book giveaway. Another very exciting thing to let you know about, we're going to be convening an international congress on Keppe's science Analytical Trilogy in March of 2008. And I wanted to start letting you know about it now so you can start planning, if you're becoming interested in this work through my podcast.
In this Congress, we'll be analyzing all areas of human activity, from medicine to art to science to sociopathology to economy and more, all through Keppe's discoveries. It'll be fascinating, revolutionary, and very positive in terms of giving you some real perspectives of the root causes of what's going so wrong in our society and how we can fix it. Write me if you'd like to receive more information on that.
Again, rich at richjonesvoice.com. I think that'll be a very exciting event, and I hope that you'll be interested in attending here. Now, on to our topic today, our minds and our immune system. Cesar Soós is working very closely with Dr. Cláudia Pacheco and Dr. Roberto Giraldo in our extraordinary Integral Psychosomatic Clinic here in São Paulo. You've heard from Cesar many times on this program.
Cesar, Dr. Keppe said recently on his television program that illness appears because the person's immune system loses force because of something internal, and that if we lose force, anything causes imbalance. Let's start there. How can you help us understand this better?
Cesar Soós: Yes, the immune system is a response to the way you think. And lately scientists have discovered more and more that all of our body is energy.
And one of the basic principles of energy is the principle of resonance. We are in resonance with the world around us. And the world is surrounded by energy and the world is sustained by energy. So if you are in resonance with this world, with natural world, then you have your immune system working fine. If you are in a kind of dissonance with this world, then you will not receive this energy and you end up having your immune system lower and lower.
So for you to get sick, it's because you are not in tune with this energy around you. That's the main problem of the human being. The way he thinks is the most important thing to keep this equilibrium, this balance in relation to the energy surrounding him. I
Richard: want to focus for a second on this, how we unplug, because Keppe says that illness is simply the opposition to goodness.
It's an attitude against the divine nature, against God, actually, that the human being doesn't want to be what he is. Talk a little bit about that and its relationship to our immune system. Well, since the
Cesar: science of psychopathology began, the first scientists like Krappling, who created psychiatry, he noticed that people suffer from megalomania when they are very crazy. So craziness is connected to the mania of grandeur.
So we have in different scales this delirium of megalomania. And this megalomania, most of it is unconscious. So when you think you are greater than you are, when you think that you have more capacities than you really have, then you start creating an enormous stress inside of you. Because you expect too much out of you and you don't see your reality. And this is one of the main problems of today.
Human beings want to see themselves too big. Like gods, let's say. But this is an unconscious process. And this is what is difficult for people to understand. Deep inside we all want to be a kind
Richard: of god. And maybe you could for a moment use the analogy you've used before of the radio station. In terms of this resonating, sinking with this resonance.
Yeah,
Cesar: human beings are exactly like radio sets. The radio, when you have the dial, you can dial to a different station, different energy frequencies, wave frequencies. And when you dial to a certain frequency, and this frequency is in resonance with the frequency emitted by the station, then you are in tune with that station. And that's why you hear the music, the news.
And if you turn the dial a little bit more, you change the internal frequency of the radio, it's a different vibration, then you will get another emission from another station. That's the way it works. So human beings have different interests in life. As long as you have your interest connected to reality, you are in tune with this station called reality, let's say.
But as long as you want to think your own deliriums and believe in lies that you create, then you will start to tune to nothing. And this tuning to nothing means a radio who is defective, a radio who is emitting a lot of noise instead of music, and then you get sick.
Richard: Talk a little bit about the implications of this for medicine today, Cesar, because the medical world comes from the idea that everything is strictly physical.
Yes. There could be a chemical imbalance in the brain, so we need to readjust the chemicals in the brain. Or there could be a physical organ that's not functioning correctly, so we need to perform an operation on that physical organ to make it work better. Or we need to introduce medication into the person in order to correct some sort of problem that's happening inside.
This energetic medicine would have a different orientation, I would imagine. Talk a little bit about how you see that.
Cesar: Richard, there is only one true medicine. It's the medicine that goes directly to the cause. And the only cause of diseases is energetic. If you are in tune with this surrounding energy you are healthy. If you are not you are sick. So as science today is based on aristotle's point of view which says energy comes from matter, then you will try to find your sources of energy, your sources of cure in physical elements.
That's why today the allopathic medicine is deceiving many people because you can cure the body but you do not cure the cause which is psychological. So you have a problem in your stomach, an ulcer for example. You can take some medication for that and it will help you for sure. But soon afterwards if you do not correct your psychological problem you will have like a heart problem or any other kind of problem in another place or another ulcer.
Another ulcer, yes. There is just one effective cure is to tap this energy. You cannot search for this energy in physical elements. Despite the fact that of course you have to eat well, you have to have good habits, if you can make exercises fantastic is good, of course it is. But the main, the fundamental aspect is this essential energy that you grasp, you capture it through the resonance with your good thoughts.
The way you think, the way you act is the only way to get in tune with this energy. And
Richard: if you don't act well, If you have bad actions, negative thoughts, what happens inside the body when you do this?
Cesar: This is very simple. If you act badly, you will not receive this energy from outside. And if you do not receive this energy, your immune system will immediately go down.
For example, when you feel very depressed, today many scientists know that depression can cause cancer. And this happens because your immune system goes down too much because it's a psychological problem. You didn't know how to face that problem. And then you get sick. Your cells don't manage to defend your body against even external
Richard: factors. Let's talk a bit more then about melatonin and particularly its relationship with free radicals because this is something that, again, I think is psychologically, even spiritually linked.
You're doing a lot
Cesar: of study about that. How do you see that, Cesar? In this sense, I would like to explain how we see the free radicals according to the trilogical point of view. Atoms, if they are seen as traditional physics puts them, atoms are material particles full of energy. They have energy inside of them. They are like balloons full of energy.
In the trilogical view, atoms are nothing more than vortexes receiving energy from this transcendental field. And they pass this energy through your body. Atom is more energetic than physical, let's say. Scientists say that free radical is a kind of unbalanced molecule. For example, if you have a molecule of water and ionizing radiation strikes this molecule, it takes out one hydrogen, then you have the hydroxyl radical, OH-.
And this free radical is extremely voracious in the body. This is the problem of radiation, is the creation of too many free radicals. But the question is, one molecule can lose one hydrogen by two reasons. One is when the external force is too strong, is one reason. And another reason is when your internal energy is too weak. And this internal energy is not regulated by the external factors.
It is regulated by your internal structure of thinking, what you believe, your system of beliefs. So some people who are strong, strongly connected to this external energy outside. They have the nucleus of their atoms strong and holding their molecules more than other people. So they produce much less free radicals than others. If you do not look at the system of thinking of the person then it doesn't help only to search for natural food, organic food, to search for exercise, to search for a better system of living.
You have to watch
Richard: your thoughts as well. Are you saying that our free radicals are created by our psychological state? What does science say about the creation of free radicals? Traditional science says free radicals are created how? Traditional
Cesar: science says that free radicals can be created by many, many different ways, but all of them external. Example, if you smoke, ultraviolet rays from the sun, what you
Richard: eat, radiation.
Okay, and Keppe's science says that free radicals are much more created by? By the diminishment
Cesar: of the strength of the energy inside the atoms. And this energy can be diminished by the way you think. If you think wrongly, then this inside energy will diminish. Because you're taking
Richard: the radio station out of...
Cesar: Of tune with this energy outside of you, yes.
Richard: With this universal energy which would come from God.
Cesar: Yes. So, what is important, Richard, is to perceive that we choose to be agitated. When you have an external problem, we choose to face it in one way or the other. And the problem is that this is unconscious most
Richard: of the time. I think here now we're entering into something very, very important. But let me just quickly come to this point that we don't produce the levels of melatonin as adults that we do when we're children.
What's happening there? How would you explain that through Dr. Keppe's trilogical eyes?
Cesar: When we are children, we are purer than when we are adults.
Richard: Purer in the sense of being more linked to this essential energy you've been talking about.
Cesar: Yes, exactly. Children are very naive. And children, they do not have these systems of defense against consciousness too much. They are very like honest in
Richard: what they say.
Children as you say are much more linked, they're much more innocent, more naive in this. They
Cesar: have pathology also Richard but their pathology has a different status. The pathology of the adults is to be like a god. Children don't think about that. They expose themselves, they expose their problems. If they are not censored they will expose their problems and then you can correct with no censorship.
But adults are not like that, they want to feel the best and so that's why we create a lot of defense mechanisms against our consciousness and by doing that we become more and more outside reality. When you do not want to see your problems, when you, it's the same as to say that you want to leave a reality, that's not true, isn't it?
If you have a certain difficulty and you do not want to face it, it's because you want to live as if it didn't exist.
Richard: And this creates in us as we get older the production of less melatonin. Because we're, what, losing contact with this?
Cesar: Exactly, we are losing contact with the reality and by losing contact with reality we are losing in consequence contact with this essential energy because reality is energy.
So if we
Richard: were more linked to this essential energy we would live longer for sure,
Cesar: for sure. And this is easy to see because when a person passes through a very difficult situation you can see this person aging much faster than if she was in a nice situation. Here's
Richard: the, here's the finally, here's the fountain of youth. Yes, it's through consciousness, through and Keppe science is brilliant in this sense because it links us up again much more with reality, the reality of ourselves, the reality of life, the basis of everything and this is a much healthier.
Exactly
Cesar: Richard, when you accept to see your problems then you see your immune system works much better and then all of the diseases will be easily handled by your
Richard: organism, your immune system can handle much better, you won't be so contrary. Because being contrary, this inversion that we have in society, psychological inversion, where we see a good thing as being bad or a bad thing as being good, which we've talked about a number of times in this program in various ways. This inversion, I'm assuming, can create even an inversion within our genetic DNA structure.
Look, for
Cesar: example, the question of the virus. This I consider very important. What is a virus? If you take a cell, for example, a cell has a lot of organoids. It has mitochondria, it has ribosomes, it has many other organoids inside the cell, which makes it a living organism on its own. But if you take a virus, virus is a piece of DNA, a piece of RNA, It doesn't have life on its own.
So how come you can be attacked by something that has no life? You see, it's because you give life to it. And what scientists call retrovirus, it's not a living organism that your body received from outside. It's fragments of something you have in your own cells that starts to work against you because you do not want to conscientize your unconscious, which works against you too.
Sometimes, Richard, we have attitudes, unconscious attitudes of destroying ourselves. This attitude is materialized in terms of an energy who wants to attack the cells themselves. And so the viruses are this, are exactly this thing. Let's say that these viruses, they are fragments which are plugged to this inverted energy created by our
Richard: unconscious way of thinking. So a virus is a physical manifestation of a psychological inversion or a psychological attack that we're making against our bodies.
Exactly that. Against
Cesar: our lives, actually. Exactly that. Viruses are nothing more than fragments of DNA, of RNA, with no life. They have no life. Who gives life to them? It's you. Your body gives life to them.
Richard: Cláudia Pacheco was talking one time about a client of hers who has AIDS. I don't know if he has AIDS or HIV, HIV positive, I can't remember which, but she was saying that in his analysis, he was beginning to conscientize, becoming conscious of how he was attacking himself in many ways in his life.
And then the HIV positive or AIDS, he was explaining that he was seeing that now as a physical manifestation of what he had been doing psychologically and manifesting physically in many ways in his life for many years before.
Cesar: Yes, Richard. Why do the people think that the virus is the cause of their illnesses? Because in this way they can blame the virus and not their attitudes.
Keppe
Richard: says that this opposition we have to goodness, this attitude we have against the divine nature, ...against the universal reality, as you've called it, that the human being doesn't want to be what he is. These are the sources of illness before it becomes physical. There's a psychological, metaphysical problem first, which then becomes physical. Exactly. Yeah. When Keppe talks about illness, Cesar, he talks about it being an opposition to goodness, an attitude against the divine nature, that the human being doesn't want to be what he is because of his theomania, as you've talked about.
He wants to be his own creator of reality, that illness then comes from the metaphysical, from the psychological inversion first and then becomes physical.
Cesar: People need to understand there is a big difference between neuroses and stress. Stress is a stimuli that comes from outside, from the external factors. And neuroses come from inside factors. We live in an inside stressful world, stressful society.
But what will determine if you get stressed or not is the capacity you have to deal with these external factors. And this capacity to deal with the external factors is connected to the psychological life. In this sense, I remember the case of Dr. Vitor Frankl, who created existentialist psychoanalysis in Vienna. He was an Austrian-Jewish scientist, and he was taken into a concentration camp.
He and his family, he saw the members of his family dying in the concentration camp. But instead of getting crazy in that situation, what did he do? He took toilet paper and he wrote the entire body of psychoanalysis in toilet papers. And he helped so many people to live inside the concentration camp. So you can say he had a very strong system, psychological system, that not only could deal with that horrible external factor, but he also helped other people.
What makes you a good or a bad person, a stressed person or not, is how strong you are inside.
Richard: And strength internally comes from seeing our human psychopathology, our inversion, our megalomania. Sounds strange, but when we do that, we immediately have contact with our essential nature, and that is very good. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Thanks a lot for listening.
