Richard Lloyd Jones: We've heard the spin, the rhetoric-loaded speeches that gave us goosebumps, the hand-on-the-heart pledges that promised to lead us out of the darkness. The words from the speechwriters are scarily simple to speak. But after we're all softened up, after we're primed for change, we usually get more of the same. Will it really be different this time? I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, Obama, Hope, and Virtue.
Well, this is a topic I'm more than a little interested in. Hey, I'm a product of the 60s. I still got a little of that revolutionary flame burning in me, the same flame that burned bright for a decade or so before it dimmed in the face of assassinations and Watergate and too many strange chemicals in our bloodstreams. And, of course, the greed-is-good mantra intoned in stock market boardrooms that carried the promises of easy money and double-digit returns on investment to any who were quick enough to jump on the bandwagon.
And now that has played itself out and revealed itself to be nothing more than what we should have known it was from the beginning, an empty promise. Empty? Why? Because it was based on an inverted philosophy, that it was good and even possible to get something for nothing. You know, the scientific discoveries I base this program on have a powerful finality. They allow us to analyze what's going on in us and in our world through a clarifying lens.
And that lens is a profound understanding of the human psyche and our society, which is really just a reflection of what's going on inside us. And we can now conclude that life, as it turns out, is not a confounding conundrum or unsolvable riddle at all. Some conclusions have been reached about us and the universe we inhabit, and those conclusions have arrived through the work of an extraordinary scientist, Brazilian psychoanalyst and social scientist, Dr.
Norberto Keppe. Now, I've been exploring this on these podcasts for the past year and a half or so, and I'll be expanding my discussions of Keppe's synthesizing work of Analytical Trilogy bringing together of science with philosophy and theology in a new internet radio show that I'll be launching in mid-March 2009 with Dr. Cláudia Pacheco. This will be a live call-in show where we'll address specific problems brought by callers and those who write to us.
This will give you a first-hand look at how Keppe's science of Analytical Trilogy sees the human condition and the society we live in. Very therapeutic and a very interesting program. I'll keep you posted about that. Get on the mailing list at rich at richjonesvoice.com. Keppe's perspective on our problems is refreshing and clarifying, as you'll know if you've been listening regularly. And one of the things he noted right away when he moved to New York in the early 80s was the incredible decadence the country had fallen into.
Every area was in decline, and this was being hidden by the appearances of prosperity that were being given off by the enticing profits on Wall Street, a luster we now know to have been polished by considerable deception and smoke and mirrors. Keppe warned us of this, warned us that moving too far from ethics and goodness and beauty would continue to bring disaster.
And now we're smack dab in the middle of the crisis he predicted. You know, Obama seems to be hip to that, admitting that we need to be more responsible, more ethical. We need to get back to work. We need to put aside childish things, as he said. I'm joined today by a couple of Americans, and together we're going to look at Obama's promise of hope and virtue through the lens of Analytical Trilogy.
Susan Berkley is the owner of the Great Voice Company in New York and a student with Norberto Keppe for over 20 years. Gilbert Gambucci has been living and studying with Keppe for 25 years and a great teacher of Keppe's concepts as well. Gilbert, why don't you kick it off here first. What's impressed you about Obama and his inauguration?
Gilbert Gambucci: One observation that I have is the reaction of the people.
They can't quite believe what's happening. Everybody is surprised. You know, I think it would be good just to lay a little bit of a foundation first in relation to powerful people because I'm noticing that the reaction of people in general, they're very surprised and even kind of like suspicious. And so what happens is, was it Machiavelli, Rich, who said that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely?
It
Richard: was not Machiavelli, but it was somebody of that era. I forget the name of the guy now, but it was exactly this quote.
Gilbert: So people notice this question between power and craziness, you know. And the first study in the psychopathology of people with power was by Norberto Keppe in his book Liberation of the People. And in fact, it's the best one until today.
And it shows how it's not exactly that when a person gets into power that he becomes corrupt. But it's imbalanced people who want power. They go there. And so what happens is we have many world leaders throughout history whom people don't perceive very well that these people are very imbalanced. Because this is a mental illness that's called theomania. You know, what is that?
It's more than megalomania, a person who just thinks that he's great beyond the reality of what he is. Theomania, a person thinks that he's another superior to the human being. It's a mental disorder. And you find theomania in mental institutions. You know, there you find Bonaparte, you know, you'll find Jesus Christ there. You'll find people who think they are Samson and all of these the deliriums of great personalities.
Now, the problem is that this theomania, it gets worked out in society as well. The difference is that certain people, they have a very polished mask. It's unbelievable. They conduct themselves as though they're a cheerful person, nice guy, very friendly. But at the same time, he's capable of dropping bombs on people's heads and killing many innocent people for very dubious reasons. And so this shows a very pathological attitude by
Richard: people who get power.
And I'm assuming in your conversation here that you don't see this in Obama so much. I know, that's
Susan Berkley: what
Gilbert: I was going to say. So what happens with somebody like Obama is that people get very kind of surprised. Well, what is this a normal human being who is very intelligent, who is in this seat of office of much influence in the world.
And so the reactions usually are twofold rich. The two reactions that are not quite in reality. One, people get suspicious. You know, they see a goodness. They see something good there that we're not used to. Somebody intelligent with ideals and convictions. So one reaction is people say, oh, okay, beautiful talk, nice talk, but, you know, they're suspicious.
Richard: They don't believe, really, that it's going to happen like that, right?
Gilbert: Another reaction is people who really perceive that it's something for real, they idealize the person beyond all dimensions, you know? So they expect a kind of miracle to come from the government now. And I just mention this because both attitudes are out of reality of the situation.
Richard: Yeah. I see a lot of this projective idealization, as Norberto Keppe would call it. I see a lot of that in this situation we have to be careful of.
Susan, what are your first thoughts as you're listening to Gilbert and just as you're going through this speech? What do you think?
Susan: Well, I want to take a very positive take on this because I think that there's been a tremendous feeling of uplift, I guess you could say. A really positive feeling, not just in the United States, but worldwide. You know, I'm here in Brazil now for five weeks and was very surprised to see how people here have kind of adopted Obama.
It's like he's their president, too, with his message of hope. And I understand that people all around the world really rejoiced, not just when he was elected, but at his inauguration. You know, there were tears in Paris and people in Japan are absolutely in love with the guy, not just there, but in Europe as well. So I'm more interested and astonished by what's going on in that respect.
It's sort of like we haven't seen something like this since JFK. Hey,
Richard: even in Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, a big enemy of the United States, he's praising Obama.
Susan: He's praising
Richard: Obama. I mean, the miracle
Susan: of miracles never ceases. It seems as if this man, and we'll know in time, really, he seems to us, those of us with good intuition, that this was a good choice, that we voted for the right guy and that this is going to be a good thing.
So we'll know in time what the reality is. But what I want to mention is it seems as if he's awakened something in everybody. And this is another concept that Norberto Keppe talks about, which is the universals. So what are universals? Now, this was a concept, and Rich, I know you helped in the translation of Dr. Keppe's book, which is devoted exclusively to this subject called The Universal Man.
But this is something that Aristotle and Plato talked about. But universals are defined as defined concepts that are embedded in the human mind, right? So I think that what the United States has always stood for is those universals, the universal of freedom, liberty, peace, justice, opportunity for all, all these good things, even, you know, love, helping and caring for one's fellow man.
What Dr. Keppe teaches is that these things are embedded within every human being. And in fact, that is our sanity. So I think the reason that we... See, so much excitement about Obama is that he personifies that. Here you have the first African-American president, a multicultural individual. These are all really good things.
Richard: From not a really wealthy family. From
Susan: not a really wealthy family.
And it's sort of like the end of the arrogance the world is hoping for, that this guy will be the end of the arrogance that the United States has stood for for so long. But I just want to go back quickly to this concept of universals. This is something really important for people to understand. Because it's like Obama's kind of like getting us in touch with a sanity inside of ourselves, whether he the man actually has this or not, time will tell.
But there is that concept within all of us, our own sanity. So if the world can kind of stay with that feeling, this inauguration, this election of our new president will be a really positive thing. Yeah,
Richard: I think we have to really be conscious that we need, everybody wants change, but nobody wants to change. So we want change without changing. And so maybe he can spur this sense of really doing what we know we should do inside in all of us.
Susan: Hope that has been so, I mean, the past few years and in the heels of this economic crisis and the war, and I'm just, I'm really so many problems
Richard: that people have felt so beaten down. So there's that flame of hope in every human being. And this is so beautiful to see. And It's so beautiful to see that indeed it is universal.
I think the first thing, one of the first things he did was to suspend the trials at Guantanamo Bay. And I think that was really a step in the right direction of fulfilling some of these universal ideas of justice and liberty. Gilbert, I want to just make a distinction, though, between raising people up in a real way and what I feel that Reagan did back at the end of the Vietnam War, right?
He was raising Americans out of feeling guilty about the Vietnam War, but not necessarily for a good thing, you know. There's something about pumping people up and doing something real. Do you see something real in Obama? Yes, Rich.
Gilbert: There's an interesting phenomena that people follow their leader. And leaders take you out of the reality of our situation or they put you into it.
Which one do you think is more often done?
Richard: Well, I think that's fairly obvious, isn't it? We're taken out of reality. You
Gilbert: know, of course, I was watching the inaugural address of Obama with much enthusiasm. And I personally, in knowing John Kennedy's inaugural address, I think that it's a piece of literature that is amazing. I think it's a masterpiece. And in watching the address of Obama, I noticed that this inaugural address is completely different from any other one in American history.
He did something that is absolutely unique because he's bringing people American people and I think everyone can identify with it in the world consciousness of our own problems where we have gone wrong. And he has done this in all sectors that need to be addressed in an inaugural address type of way. During his campaign he brought up statistical things in more detail but for example he shows us that We are a nation at war.
Our economy is badly weakened. He addresses the problem of greed and irresponsibility. You know, collective failure to make decisions that we need to make. He talks about the many homes that have been lost, jobs that are lost, businesses that are closing up, health care that is too expensive. He talks about the problems of education in high school, colleges, university. Ways that we use energy that are threatening our planet you know he was really bringing consciousness of things that we need to look at.
Now what happens is that the human psyche requires truth whether we like it or not. This is where our health is and he had a very nice technique of showing us the problem and then calling us up showing us the problem and then calling us up come on we can get out of this.
Richard: He actually said we will do it He didn't just say we can.
We can was his victory speech
Susan: in the election. But this inaugural speech, he said, we will do it. He said, our problems are serious and they are many. They will not be met easily or in a short span of time. But know this, America, they will be
Gilbert: met. You know, it's nothing like a bailout or even to save the situation or even to change something, to rectify the things or improve.
You know, the word that he used is remaking America. This is a perspective that we have lost things. And you know what? When you come to the truth of where we are, then it's possible for people to decide what they're going to do about that. If you don't come to that truth, how can you solve a problem of which you are unaware?
You have to come to the truth of the problem, and then people can decide what they're going to do about it.
Richard: Dr. Keppe addresses this directly in his books. His early books he wrote back in the 80s about his experience in the United States. He said, the greatest problem in the psychopathology of the American people is their unwillingness to see any problem whatsoever, that they have the unfortunate and wrong idea that by not seeing their errors, the errors will not exist.
So I agree with you about what Obama was doing, seeing the problem, not fixing on the problem, but raising us up to solve the problem. This is very beautiful. Yeah,
Susan: you know, we are, that's a real pathology that we have, the pathology of praise, overpraising everything. And we think that if we, you know, you got to, now positive thinking is a great thing.
And the whole positive thinking movement originated in the States. And it really, that optimism is fantastic. But let's not confuse overpraising with optimism. Because what happens when you just praise, praise, praise all the time, it's what we don't know about ourselves that sinks us. And unfortunately, our goodness remains, but our pathology is the giant hole in our psyche that we really have to know that we didn't know in this financial crisis.
We had our eyes closed. We kept thinking we could spend our way out of it, that we could keep living in this euphoria of materialism. And we, you know, take a look at the results. So I hope that Obama will lead us to having our feet on the ground and really realistic look at all the problems.
Gilbert: You know, that's kind of interesting, Rich.
In the 80s, when Liberation of the People, the pathology of power, was launched in New York, there in the United States, when Keppe was living there, and also the decay of the United States and the American people, which he launched at that time with the perspective of helping people to conscientize their problems so that we can overcome them. These books were mailed to all state and federal senators and congressmen everywhere, including to Obama.
And I find it very interesting that he is bringing consciousness of the problems and at the same time calling people up. You know, this kind of eliminates the people's tendency to want to idealize something. Okay, well, you do it. You know, they're in the government. You have the most powerful government in the world, so do something. Obama is saying no. He said, okay, I'll be your leader, but it's up to each one to do this.
You do it. And, you know, there's, at this time, also in the 80s, Rich Keppe wrote a book called Work and Capital. And I have a quote from this book, Work and Capital. I have a quote that, in one sentence, believe it or not, explains our present economic situation.
Richard: This I want to hear, Gilbert. Are you ready for this? I can
Gilbert: see t-shirts, coffee mugs.
Okay, look. If the level of speculation increases greatly, simultaneously those at the other end of the process, the workers, become poorer. And as the latter become devastated, the means used to generate money with money will also eventually be decimated and all collapse at the same time, as is now happening. And, you know, ever since Reagan, we've had serious problems in our economy, the real economy, yes, industry, agriculture, the workforce.
And so what happened the the thing that he did was to increase the speculative market get people interested in doing speculation making money with money. So it's kind of like a car spinning its wheels in the snow you know it's spinning spinning it looks like people are making money okay things are good again but what's happening is the car is sinking further and further into the ground yeah. You know, so nowadays what's happening, this process has played itself out.
And our country, everybody, including Obama, we're seeing, well, what's left? The speculative market, that can disappear, no problem. But what is left is the real workforce, the state
Richard: of agriculture, the state of industry. And Obama has talked about going back to work. Susan, you made a point I want to follow up on a little bit here. You said, well, we'll see what he does.
We'll see if he has the stuff to do it. And so I wanted to ask you what signals you're looking for to reassure you that Obama's on the right track.
Susan: One thing that I've learned from Dr. Keppe that actually goes kind of against my grain as a business person, but I think, you know, there is an entrepreneurial class that really is not too fond of Obama because we're thinking, oh, my goodness, you know, now the taxes are going to go up and they're going to take away the rights of business owners.
And I don't think it's that way really at all. But I think that right now, all of us as Americans have to support him in doing what's right. So, for example. There's a key concept here that Dr. Keppe introduced in his book, The Liberation of the People, which is that power and the strength of any society has to come from the people on up.
The way we have it now is upside down. It's inverted, which is another term that Dr. Keppe uses all the time, where you have the powerful at the top of the pyramid and you have the people themselves at the bottom being, quote unquote, ruled or whatever from. So what really has to happen is that the populace needs to take more responsibility. And this is kind of like, so what would that look like in society?
Well, I just think the fact that he is multicultural, that he seems to be supporting initiatives that are going to get people in general inspired and back to work, hopefully, that would be a good thing. And that it isn't so much like a ruling power elite anymore in the United States, that we feel more like we've got one of us back in power and not this sort of like this cabal, this arrogant cabal that goes and wages war with impunity.
I'll be interested to see how he handles the wrapping up of Iraq, how he allocates our dwindling resources, our budget, what happens with the banking crisis. You know, there's so many areas that all of us are going to be looking at.
Richard: Gilbert, you're, I think, our greatest scholar here in the founding fathers and the values, the true values of America, what America stands for, what America was founded on.
What are you looking for from Obama? What would give you the continued good feeling that you're starting to have now as you watch him speak? You
Gilbert: know, Rich, there when we were in San Diego doing the World Conference of Analytical Trilogy, I had opportunity to speak a little bit with one of the sisters there at the University of San Diego in the theological department.
And I was just mentioning to her, you know, sister, when I first heard Obama speak, immediately I had the impression that this guy is directly linked to the heart of our founding fathers. You know, exactly this spirit, but directly linked, you know. Uh jefferson madison adams and going through to lincoln and uh and afterwards kennedy martin luther king this guy is from this lineage you know and she said something very simple that i thought was really beautiful.
She said "yes Gilbert we have to help him" you know and i thought well here's a guy who what are his priorities he speaks to us about hard work and honesty yeah. You know, courage, and he uses the word fair play.
What is fair play? That's ethics. You know, being ethical, being honest with each other. You know, tolerance. In fact, he uses a quote at the end of his inaugural address that comes from George Washington. Hope and virtue. You know, look at these values. These are the values that you can build, really build something on. And I thought it was interesting. He made an analogy between the state of the United States today, the state of us psychologically, socially, and what was happening at that time in the revolution with a group of soldiers who were in the middle of winter.
He paints a picture for us. He says the capital was abandoned. The enemy was advancing. The snow literally stained with blood. And so there they are. And George Washington. He decided to send out a little message to the people. At the hour when. The outcome of this revolution. Was most in doubt. Okay, so what did Washington say? And Obama is using this. As an analogy to our present situation. He said let it be told. To the future world that in the depth of winter, when nothing but hope and virtue could survive, nothing but hope and virtue could survive, that the city and the country, alarmed at one common danger, came forth to meet it.
Richard: This is beautiful, Gilbert, because now you're touching into something I think that's very essential to Norberto Keppe's work, which is that goodness has power. Goodness gets results. It's like if we stand by values, if we stand by what the country was founded on, we will win. We will have a victory, something good.
Susan: Another concept that I've learned from Dr. Keppe over the years is that we have fallen from something good.
Not that we are making our goodness and, you know, by striving we're going to get to the top of something. No, we had this. This goodness is embedded in us. But it's been corrupted over the years in many, many different ways, and we've actually fallen. So it's a returning to something.
Richard: Dr. Keppe says in Decay of the American People, you guys, something very beautiful.
He says, the human being's greatest enemy is within, and it's corroding our civilization at its base. So he said, will we have the same courage, as we've shown before, to confront the adversary located in our inner selves? And this is maybe the thing that Obama is touching, that I feel anyway.
Susan: So you asked what would show me that we're really on the right track if he becomes less projective.
You know, the United States is like super projective. We think that there are terrorists under every bed. And clearly, of course, there is a problem with these groups. But I think we way overreact. There's a lot of corruption in the military industrial complex. And I think if he shows himself, my impression of George Bush and those who came before him is really a lot of warmongering.
So if Obama shows himself to be more reasoned, more of a peacemaker, less projective, dealing really with this enemy within, and not—the United States, our primary problem is that we project all our aggression outward, I think, meaning that we see problems outside of ourselves rather than inside of ourselves, and then we wage war on top of that.
Richard: So here's a big challenge for us, then, as citizens of the planet.
I'm a Canadian, you guys are Americans. We have many people who are listening from other countries. And the big challenge for us, I think, as human beings, is to move with this wave of change that we are sensing in a guy like Obama. For us to move with it, not just to expect him to do that, but for us to really incorporate these values that Gilbert and Eustace were alluding to of goodness and truth and beauty to move with that spirit of change.
Boy, that's a big challenge inside us. That's interesting, Rich,
Gilbert: because there's a kind of phenomenon here. Why is everyone in the world resonating with this guy? Yeah. All over the world. Okay, people of goodwill, that is, you know, of course, there's opposition from very envious people. You can see that already. But it's a
Richard: kind of a phenomenon because usually politicians who come to office It's all talk, talk, talk.
And then after the inaugural address, you say, well, now what's going to happen now? Back to business
Gilbert: as usually. And one of the reasons, Susan, that I know that Obama is a man of action is because of this phenomenon of being. This is the study of ontology, you know, the being of a person. When a person is virtuous, when his character is basically virtuous, the things that he says, people resonate with that.
You know that he's sincere. You know that he's going to act on this, you know. And he calls people up to that. And the fact that he brings consciousness of the real problems that we have, you know, to take a look at this. Look, this needs to be straightened out. It's like this, you know. Our situation is deplorable. Now let's overcome it.
And so everybody relates to the truth. Everybody relates to reality. Everybody knows what is beautiful. We have this in our being. So when we have a man there talking these things, as you mentioned earlier, these universal truths, this is something that everybody can resonate with.
Richard: And Gilbert, our challenge is going to be to stay true to these values of goodness when the screws are tightened because if things, these situations in the environment, in the economy, these are going to affect us personally in direct ways.
And so how do we react when the screws get tightened? Do we stay true to those values in the bleak of winter? Do we stay true to value and ethics and goodness? Or do we succumb to the usual finger-pointing and blaming? This is a big challenge for we human beings, I think.
Gilbert: Yes, so when it's time to face these problems finally, in order to resolve them, then we're going to see how civilization will develop in reality.
And I was just remembering, this is a kind of warning to my friends, that during Kennedy's time, what happened was, people perceived that this man was working for the people. You know, powerful people, they work for themselves and the people around them, almost always. But with Kennedy, no. Here's a man who's working for the people. So all of the problems started to come up.
You know, questions of racism, now we can solve it. So it looked like that problems were beginning, but really they were not. Problems were always hidden and pushed down, and finally there was an opportunity for them to come up to be treated and resolved. So, in the next years ahead, I believe we're going to see this type of phenomenon, where the real problems, finally, are going to come up so that we can solve them.
So, please, don't confuse this with...
Susan: With having the
Gilbert: problems. Seeing the problems is not... It's the first start to solving them. It's not a negative thing or put the
Susan: blame on the government. Oh, Obama, this is not working
Richard: out. No, now we're going to start to see what the problems are. The real problem behind. The real ones so that we can work them out.
So that we can
Gilbert: begin to develop again and pursue what? You know, to pursue the happiness that all of us want.
Susan: Yes, let's go back and read the Declaration of Independence and all of that. You know, and I want to end with one thing, which is that the tremendous power of goodness, it's not arms that have the might. It's goodness that has the might.
Goodness has teeth in it. And let's stand on that.
Gilbert: You know, Obama mentioned in his address that we need to be true to our founding documents. You know, that is to say something has been happening where we are not true to those documents. And that's why we're not experiencing the liberty that we would like to have. We're not experiencing affluence, you know, our pursuit of happiness.
Because there have been people in high places who have been doing everything possible to negate our founding documents. And so we must restore them. Who must restore them? I would like to suggest, you know, the Constitution of the United States is not very long. It's easy to get a copy of it. I think that all of us should read it so that we know when our constitutional rights are being negated or not.
You know, I think we should all read the Declaration of Independence of Jefferson. This is basic. If you're a citizen of the United States or if you consider yourself a citizen of the world, this is an amazing document. These are universal ideals. And so everyone should read this Constitution of the United States to know how to protect ourselves from people who would like for us not to have liberty and not to have a pursuit of happiness.
There's our homework. Yeah,
Susan: that's our homework. That's our homework. Goodness has so much power that a single human being who embodies it can pull the rest of the world along. It's happened before in human history, and it can happen again.
Richard: So we're all optimistic. Hope dies hard in some of us. But you know, we all have inside of us this knowledge that we should live in a world where life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are taken for granted.
One thing to remember, though, we can't expect Obama to get us there alone. We've got some work to do. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
