Richard Lloyd Jones: In 1992, at an old chateau a few kilometers outside Paris, a small group gathered to form yet another group trying to stop our destruction of the world. There was only one difference. This group wanted to highlight the root cause of the problems. That association is still going strong, and its core purpose has never been more necessary. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and today I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
I'd like to introduce you to the STOP the Destruction of the World Association, a non-profit group closely linked to Norberto Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy. I'll be talking with founder Cláudia Pacheco in a few moments. You know, I haven't mentioned it for a couple of weeks, but I still have copies of Norberto Keppe's seminal book on the pathology of power called Liberation of the People, available for free.
I've given away quite a few of these provocative books already, and it's wonderful to see Keppe's very important work getting out to more people. You know, he publishes these books himself since no publisher will touch him with a barge pole, to their shame, which gives you an idea how important his work must be. You know, when he lived in New York City in the 1980s, a friend of mine who worked for one of the big networks at the time said a memo circulated around the radio and TV stations of that network saying that no one was to give any air time to Keppe's books or activities, which were substantial at the time.
That no effort should be expended in covering anything to do with his work. Keppe's work challenges the power structures at their very roots. It doesn't just offer a social critique, but his work unmasks the pathology behind all of our actions and especially the pathology driving those in power. Write me if you'd like a copy of this landmark book, rich at richjonesvoice.com. Dr.
Cláudia Pacheco has worked closely with Norberto Keppe for over 25 years. She's the vice president of his International Society of Analytical Trilogy, a much-in-demand psychoanalyst, and the president of the STOP the Destruction of the World Association. I sat down with her recently to talk about the problems in society and how her association could possibly help a world seemingly hell-bent on destruction. Cláudia, there's no shortage of well-meaning and very active environmental and human rights associations fiercely dedicated to saving the planet already formed.
Why do we need this one?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Yeah, because we need to address the fundamental cause of all these other problems. What we address is the very cause of all this, which is the human being. Why the sick mind of human beings produce so much destruction? If you have a forest with no human beings in it. Everything is perfect. Animals, plants, everything goes smoothly.
Life dominates. Life is like a queen when there is no action or destruction of humans. So why are we so destructive? And this is a subject of a science called psychopathology. And it's very little known in the world. And it should be very well known because all the other sciences depend on this one. Because everything we do in arts, in economy, in administration, science, everything is a production of our minds, of our intentions, our values.
So if anything goes wrong inside of us, everything will go
Richard: wrong outside too. How would you describe the main problem, what's going on in the human mind? If that's the cause of our destruction, what is that thing that's going on in the
Cláudia: human mind that's gotten so wrong? Jones, I find the discovery that Dr. Keppe did about psychological inversion, a major step forward that will help not only the psychological sciences, the social sciences, but we'll help all the other areas of human endeavor because we are upside down.
We see the world upside down in life and we built an upside down society with upside down laws, values, habits, systems, institutions, and on and on and on. I
Richard: used to drive you crazy with this question when I first came to Brazil. It's upside down from what?
Cláudia: From the normal version, which would be the version that is suitable to human beings, the version that reigns in every place in nature where human beings don't destroy, he doesn't pervert, he doesn't deny.
When he doesn't use his theomania, and Keppe calls it very properly, theomania, the idea that we have that nature is plenty of mistakes. Creator, if such thing exists, he did a wrong thing. So we should, with our intelligence, with our creativity, recreate life in accordance to our ideas and fantasies. This
Richard: is the theomania.
Cláudia: Delusions, and this is the eumania. So every time we interfere and when we break the laws of nature, which are beautiful, truthful, and ethical, and good.
So every time we break these laws, a problem comes.
Richard: What are some examples you see in society of us breaking these laws, Cláudia,
Cláudia: causing this big destruction? Transgenics, genetics, engineering. And this brings an enormous discussion around this inversion in science. That we think energy comes from matter. Everything comes from matter. If I want to be healthy, if I want to get energized, I must eat such and such food.
And not that. The main source of energy is not physical, is not material, is transcendental. It's invisible machines cannot grasp. And if it would not be like this Richard we would not achieve incredible results when we deal with patients with physical diseases just with dialogue just with conscientization. So cases that were taken by doctors as terminal cases they can be healed through our inner pharmacy which can be and is physiological too, but the source, the motor, is energetic and it goes beyond physical matter.
It's transcendental. So this world which is transcendental, which cannot be measured by machines, rules our material world.
Richard: You're saying that we block this essential energy from getting into our bodies, into our minds. Yes.
Cláudia: How do we do this? One of the main things that we have in this inversion is that we see values upside down. We feel pleasure in doing wrong, in attacking, in taking drugs, in procrastinating, in being lazy, in eating too much, or in sensorial life, having a lot of money, buying things.
So I'm not saying the sensorial life is a sin, but we destroy the sensorial life too when we want to overeat, to practice more sex than it's something reasonable. Or when we want to put money much more valuable than feelings, than friendships, than arts, than spirituality, when we value arrogant people in society instead of humble people. So all of these inverted values cause a lot of anxiety, a lot of unhappiness, unsatisfaction, because we cannot live, like, against our essence.
Richard: We've talked many times in the program about these ideas, but I wanted you to talk a little bit about how you bring this all together and stop, like, all of the psychopathology.
Cláudia: Sociopathology.
Richard: Sociopathology. How
Cláudia: does this all come together in your organization? So, Richard, if we have inverted values, our laws will be inverted too. So, our laws will protect the rich ones, banks, interest rates, wars, military industry, drug trafficking, corruption.
Our laws will protect all of those criminal even behaviors that are against us. Like it will protect the allopathic medicine, these treatments that can even harm more our health. And we do not give value to natural medicine, to the power of mind healing people without the necessity of spending a lot of money. So our lives are organized to create profits. And this is crazy.
Money should serve man and not we serve money or serve the rich people because the richest people, the billionaires in society, they are not to be admired. They are those who are the sickest like everything is upside down. World governments, scientists, medias, all serve a small group of billionaires that are very sick, very inverted. There
Richard: are two of Keppe's graphs I'm thinking about as you're speaking.
One called particularization, about how all the resources of the world, I don't just mean physical resources, but schools, infrastructure within a society, all of these elements are going to relatively few people. And Keppe is really pushing for what he calls universalization, where all of the resources on the planet, not just the physical resources, the resources of talent, the resources of education, of opportunity, are for everybody in the world, not just these few at the top.
Can you talk a little bit about how you see
Cláudia: that? How many professions are vanished from the planet, are not developed, just because of this idea of making profits? Because every day more and more people serve less and less companies, major corporations. There are huge corporations, just a small group of people, many times own a lot of kind of enterprises like media, like pharmaceutical industry, like building guns and arms and like farming.
It's in their hands already. So everything that the world produces is in their hands, small groups of billionaires. So this is like a cancer. Because if we would give attention to use the money to improve society, I wonder, Richard, what we would have already. Not only the healing, the cure of cancer and other diseases, but also forms of non-polluting energies that would be free of charge.
Healthy food for everybody clean water for everybody education for everybody arts everywhere. You see that if some activity research arts or something does not give profit they are not valuable for this society and it's the other way around because being a commercial person making profits what is the value of this for civilization. It's just an obstacle because if you need money for to do anything then you can do nothing you just can be a slave of a small group of people to make them richer and richer.
They cannot even use all the money they have. They hide the money they have like under the banks and the construction under the earth. So they take gold from Brazil and they storage them again in London or in Washington or anywhere. But it's like just moving the richness from one place to the other instead of using this gold to make the life of everybody more beautiful.
Richard: I can hear every business person having a heart attack as you're speaking.
Cláudia: The business shouldn't be about profit. And so I think this is… By the way, Jones, you know that this is a source of heart attack in many people being worried with money, paying bills. And for those richest, losing some cents in there or some dollars or whatever,
Richard: it's a source of heart attack.
What is this? So do we serve money as a god as it is in the dollar bill? Like in God we trust. So in dollar we trust. Keppe has some wonderful examples of what could be done to begin to reverse this, Cláudia. And the STOP the Destruction of the World Association is very directly linked to his work because you work so closely with him, as do all of us.
He says that food, clothing, education, and housing should all be free.
Cláudia: When he started saying this, Jones, I thought this man got crazy. How come? If I don't have to pay my bills in the end of the month, if I don't have to pay for my food, rent, blah, blah, blah, What is the motivation for me to go to work? I thought everybody will just be lazy and stay doing nothing.
They would not have any purpose in life if they would not have the bills in the end of the month. But then, observing by experience, experimental, scientific experimentation, in the model of trilogical enterprises and residences that he organized, I saw people growing so much and working with such a motivation to do a better work and to do a quality work, working even more hours per day and having everything provided for them since the beginning.
So when a partner, a new associate comes to a Trilogical Enterprises, he has all of this for free. So he has time and energy and mind and emotional conditions to stop worrying and just think what is the best he can do for the company. What is the best he can do for his customers? What is the best he can do for the world?
And everything comes back to the company and to the associates in terms of money, in terms of trust of the customers, in terms of quality of life. Inside the working environment, everything improves. So there is not this clash of bosses and employees and envy in the working place because he gets more money than I do, I work more than he does. So all of these problems are resolved in a Trilogical Enterprise model.
Richard: It's an extraordinary experience. It is. Because I've been in this. I mean, six years ago
Cláudia: when I came here, I was given this opportunity. And this podcast is directly a result of working in this environment. Because you have time, conditions to create, to get the most of your creativity, of your capacity, of your talents. So you can use your talents. And this is really fulfilling.
It's really motivating to have an opportunity to do what you would like to accomplish in your life.
Richard: Yeah, for sure, because I don't have to worry. I mean, we're not making money with this podcast. So how am I being supported the time to
Cláudia: do this? How are you being supported from the other work that we're doing that gives us a base from which we can develop other things?
A Chinese TV interviewed me this morning, and the reporter asked me, who supports your work? You are an NGO. Who sponsors your work?
Richard: Where does your fundraising come from, the funds?
Cláudia: And so we have a major difficulty in this area. Sure, we have. But on the other hand, if we would rely on other people's support, company support, banking support, We would never, never, ever started even our work because we are even working against their own interests.
So how do we sponsor our 240 TV stations all over the world, translating, dubbing, subtitling in 12 languages, reaching thousands of cities already, and being in internet, and having six schools in São Paulo, teaching this science for as many people as possible, giving free lectures, attendance, poor communities. How? Because we started all alone, Keppe and myself. We were practicing as psychoanalysts and we took money from our pockets to start.
And then, little by little, idealistic people started to get together in this task and formed the Trilogical Enterprises. And the Trilogical Enterprises, where people can have the opportunity to apply Keppe's philosophy, in their work and lives, they support this voluntary work. And they even participate working in the association, giving classes, as you do, for instance, creating this wonderful work that you are developing.
Richard: The Chinese television station asked you a question today. They said, what will make you feel you've been successful in life? I thought that was a really beautiful question to ask you, who've been working your whole working life in this area of helping us to become conscious of the root cause of the human destruction in the world. You are an example of this for all of us.
What will make you feel like you've been successful in life, if you
Cláudia: don't already? I have a dream to see Dr. Keppe's ideals that he wrote in Liberation of the People book, Pathology of Power. When I see this starting, when I perceive that we were able to give the start and it will not go back anymore, it will be like a snowball.
When I feel confident that this was already achieved and we will see paradise being regained, then I'll feel, okay, so that's it.
Richard: This is a lead-in for our Congress that we're having in March next year, 2008. Because I actually wrote, as I was
Cláudia: working on the website, Paradise Lost, Paradise Regained, and you just said it again. Yes.
Richard: And Keppe's ideal is totally this.
If you read Liberation of the People, which we're giving away, by the way, in this program, you see his ideal of this all throughout this. ...book, that what's possible. He focuses a lot on the corruption, the inversion, the problem, but it's always to return us to the state that we should be living in, that we could be living in, if we would
Cláudia: treat these...
So it would not be to create a new world or to create a new society. It would be to go back and to rescue the goodness, the knowledge, the wisdom, the beauty that we left behind. So we have this all in our minds. We have this even in nature. We are destroying a lot of species in plants, animals. We should stop doing this.
We should be like transmitting, sharing this information for as much people as possible. And you listeners, please do that. We don't have that much time. If we don't realize this inversion in humanity, soon enough, we will throw it in a catastrophe. Or
Richard: go too far, and then there's no way back. When you talk about the destruction, actually you talked about it in this way, Cláudia, that we need to go back to values that we've lost.
I was thinking that all throughout history, we've had great ideas, great thinkers, but it gets lost because there's so much inversion, corruption, that doesn't really permit a continuous development.
Cláudia: And people want to do everything from the start and create new things. And to left behind and destroy the value of the past.
Richard: So we've seen a big decay in all areas of human endeavor.
Cláudia: For instance, Jones, Dr. Keppe had always admired the old American civilization, if we could say so. So the values of these founding fathers that were brought from Europe, this era of the lights, the age of the lights that Europe developed in France, in England, where those ideas of freedom, but not freedom to do anything, freedom to corrupt, but the freedom to do good for our fellow man, to have a society with spiritual values, not clerical values, but spiritual values.
Keppe doesn't link his theology to any churches or institutions. He's universal in his understanding of God. And this is very important. Now, when we traveled to the United States to bring our work to the American people, we moved to New York City, and we traveled all around the United States. We had a shock, because we realized that this inversion of money, being on the top of everybody and any area was really becoming very powerful in the United States in the beginning of the 80s.
This, with Reaganomics, went so far where speculation and exploitation started to rampage of exploitation and games in Wall Street. So what we faced in the United States was a huge decay in all true American values, like there was a decay in arts, in farming, health, education, culture in general, quality of life, human values. People were becoming more and more addicted to chemical substances, more and more depressed, more and more sick, more and more obese.
Less and less creative, giving less and less value to do a good work, less and less beautiful. Even the democratic values were lost. Values of friendship, of balance, they were being lost inside of all this crazy idea of becoming a millionaire and becoming rich easily with speculation. So the richer were becoming richer and richer, crazier, and the poor becoming poorer and poorer.
So this is a synonym of a total inverted and sick society, very materialistic, consuming the world and consuming themselves and being distorted. And as United States were a leading nation, how come then the world would not be affected by them? And it is affected, indeed, has been. And we must consider that the spending with military, industry, weapons, oil, just to produce profits, drugs, all of this are helping to destroy faster and faster.
Not only the ecological aspect, but human beings. We have children dying every second in the world with so much food. Available. Available. The
Richard: banks, of course, have been a big part of this with their interest rates and this whole idea of speculation.
Cláudia: This is for sure. Governments are not free anymore. Banks belong to governments. Banks own politicians, governments, parties. The bankers and financial powerful people, they own the world.
And they are the less qualified to rule the world because their interest is sadistic, only money. Keppe
Richard: is very patriotic in this sense not to America but to these values that America represents as did many people from the Enlightenment the values of goodness, truth, beauty. Keppe is very patriotic to these values.
Cláudia: Yeah, and you go to Europe for instance you see beauty and arts going down in Austria you see these philosophies and arts going down in France.
So people are becoming more and more distant from the true values of civilization.
Richard: The stop organization is fundamental then because it's dealing with these enormously far-reaching themes inside the human psyche and in the human soul.
Cláudia: And we need to count on the mouth-to-mouth work because the major medias, which are owned by the major banks and companies, they would never give support to this science.
So we can count, and we have to count, on the goodwill and mouth-to-mouth work. So you that hear us and understand and agree, please tell as much people as possible.
Richard: There you are. A real call to action to do your part in stopping the destruction of the world.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
