Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: This
Richard Lloyd Jones: is Therapy
Cláudia: for the World. It seems inversion is causing blindness, confusion, lies, misunderstanding, death, calamities, corruption. It's causing everything.
Richard: The Therapy for the World podcast is a production of the Keppe and Pacheco Trilogical Colleges. Inversion. It's a recent 20th century discovery by the brilliant Brazilian psychoanalyst and social scientist, Dr. Norberto Keppe. 1977, to be precise. So, if you hear about our modern inversion of values, you can be sure that's coming to today's lexicon because of years of effort from Keppe and his team, who worked tirelessly to bring consciousness of the root psychosocial causes of human malevolence and destruction.
Seems we're inverted from our original good, beautiful, and true essence, and that inversion causes us to do the weirdest and most pernicious things while thinking we're acting honorably. How else to explain why every technological development we launch causes us to creep ever closer to wiping out everything? We're inverted, so we destroy nature to make money and capture energy. We desperately look for fulfillment through possessions and mutual funds.
We churn out new machines that kill and maim while insisting we're looking for peace. Understanding more about inversion gives us, finally, both an explanation of what's gone so wrong in the human experience and a means of treating ourselves and returning to our original nature. Today, Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco and Inversion. We've talked about it many times in different ways. But you said this was maybe the most important scientific discovery of all time if we understand this idea of inversion this concept of inversion how we're inverted from our reality i think this will help a lot of people so inversion in your understanding is that the human being sees things upside down individually and then we put these inverted ideas into our structures into all of our institutions into our the various fields of action that human beings have so inversion is this i don't know if it's the secret ingredient to the to the cake you know
Cláudia: "It's the key, Richard, to understand anything and everything, you know."
Inversion is the key. How do you say in English a key you use to interpret everything?
Richard: Master key. Yeah, it's a master key.
Cláudia: Like in the hotel, they have the master key that opens all the rooms. It is. Indeed, it's the master key. It's impressive. Yeah. Because if you want to understand what is going wrong, you go there and you see it's upside down.
It's inverted. And inversion is applied in many, many ways and areas. And it seems that our energy, the energy of the cells, are working invertedly. That one vector of the DNA is correct and the other vector is inverted. Lost
Richard: in space. It's not spinning in the right way.
Cláudia: Exactly. And the proof for this is that our telomeres... Ah, our telomeres. Yeah. Our telomeres don't reproduce or they don't duplicate normally.
Richard: Ah, like a bad photocopy.
Cláudia: Yes, it's like a defect. And if this duplication of the telomere or restitution would be done like normally, we would have endless life.
Richard: Is this telomere part of the cell?
Cláudia: It's part of the DNA.
Richard: Part of the DNA. Yes. Okay.
Cláudia: And it reproduces? It reproduces.
Richard: Or replicates?
Cláudia: Replicates the cells and how the cells work.
Richard: And they're not replicating correctly?
Cláudia: No, they are not. And when you see what happens in cancer, for instance, this is what happens. One of the vectors of the DNA goes wrongly, like
Richard: an upside down, like all
Cláudia: deformed. So this is how a cancer cell misworks,
Richard: disworks, unworks, whatever. Works incorrectly.
Cláudia: And, you know, in cancer, the missing of one, like one pole of energy, which forms free radicals, they call electrons.
But we know that these are energies that compose our being and our body and everything. So, Richard, it seems that inversion is everywhere. And inversion is causing mistake, blindness, confusion, lies, misunderstanding,
Richard: death,
Cláudia: war, poverty, calamities, corruption. It's causing everything. And inversion is so deeply rooted in us. Sometimes I compare inversion with watching like everything in the world and reality through a mirror.
You think that reality is there in the mirror and not in me or behind me. So I fight. I want to go inside that mirror, which is impossible. I fantasize in that mirror. I get angry towards what is there in the mirror, towards myself that I see in the mirror, and I don't,
Richard: is behind somewhere. Yes, reflecting
Cláudia: in the mirror, exactly. And this we're fighting
Richard: with the reflection, exactly, and
Cláudia: not the real thing,
Richard: exactly.
Oh
Cláudia: my gosh, animals do this sometimes. You see a dog barking towards himself in the mirror. Cats, they get so much scared sometimes they go
Richard: behind the TV to see who's there
Cláudia: in the TV, right? Yes, and we are like this. So we see in our reflection who we are, but we don't recognize it's me. So we do this with people, with husbands, wives, uh, father, mother, other people,
Richard: bosses,
Cláudia: workers, yeah.
And so this upside down attitude, it is inverted, right? No, no, how do you say do avesso? It's not upside down, really. When you dress a coat that is...
Richard: Inside out.
Cláudia: Inside out.
Richard: Inside out.
Cláudia: This is very important to understand we are, we have this process of being inside out. Our inside we put outside. And this is sickness. This is leads us to neurosis, psychosis and mental illness.
"You mean
Richard: we see our problems in other people." "Yes,
Cláudia: and quality sometimes,
Richard: and sometimes quality, sometimes many times qualities." You told me that years ago when I was talking about a friend of mine from New York who was very very good in publicity and marketing, and I said maybe Cláudia she could help me with our radio programs, you know. And uh I'm gonna write to her, you know.
Of course she never even responded, and you said "Richard you're putting your ideal into her. You think that her that she has the same ideal that you have." So in qualities and we can certainly see this in pathologies, right, problems, both both like sure.
Cláudia: You idealize, you project the inner beauty that you have inside of you and you put inside out, yeah, and you put it in a country, in a city, in a company, in an institution, a house, a car, a person, a partner, a partner, a spouse.
"This
Richard: guitar is gonna make me fantastic, right." And
Cláudia: then we like we get married, we get like we are accepted in a in a firm, a new company and or a church or whatever new that you idealized, and then little by little you start uh-oh, this is not what I imagined.
And then you start to put the inside out of your pathology in that object. Yeah. Whatever object of idealization you did, you made, you will do the same thing using your own pathology. You
Richard: loved it and then you'll hate it.
Cláudia: Yes,
Richard: exactly. You know, the North American culture is famous for this. This book is going to teach me how to be better in relationships.
This course is finally going to help me deal with my procrastination. It's everywhere. Right?
Cláudia: What do I do? What
Richard: do
Cláudia: you tell me that I should do? Expecting the orientation coming from outside as well. And this is a disaster. Disaster. Because we have the answers inside and the right answer. If I find the answer outside, it's not the right answer. Let's talk
Richard: about some specific examples then as you talked about a lot of them in in the area of metaphysics and philosophy, relationships, education, science and technology.
We could think about maybe when you speak about inversion and I of course I've been here for 22 years so I understand a bit about this. I think about how we put money above everything, right. Money is more important than children.
It's more important than the rivers, than the trees, than nature. It's more important than the human being. We make money as the be-all and end-all of everything, don't we? This is a classic inversion, isn't
Cláudia: it? Can I go to a little bit of history of psychoanalysis? Ah,
Richard: okay.
Cláudia: Okay. In the first psychoanalysts, like the pioneers, Freud and other German and Austrian and Hungarian, those people from Central Europe.
Richard: Late 1800s, early 1900s.
Cláudia: They found out, by the way, it was Ferenczi.
Richard: Ferenczi from Hungary.
Cláudia: Yeah. He spoke about phases that Freud adopted in other analysts. The phases of development from zero.
Richard: This is individual development, the human being's
Cláudia: development, not the society. From zero to two years of age. Zero to six. We go from orality, oral phase, to annality, anal phase, and genitality, genital phase.
It was supposed from seven years old on, the person starts to become more rational, more spiritual, more sociable.
Richard: Altruistic.
Cláudia: And be more balanced. More balanced. The maturity should start at this point.
Richard: From seven years to...
Cláudia: That's why people in the past got the first communion when they were seven or that baptism in Judaism, I think it's 13 or 12.
Richard: Yeah, what do they call that?
Cláudia: Bar mitzvah. Bar mitzvah. Boy, I'm so bad with these theological terms. Me too, me too. Bar mitzvah, yes. Bar mitzvah. At 13, right? I think it's at 13. But, you know, when the person starts getting more able to use the reason and abstraction and go more to a psychological, spiritual level, they thought human beings from zero to six were only instincts, like little animals.
And that they conducted their lives just being headed by pleasure, pleasure, oral pleasure, everything that comes from the mouth, and like eating,
Richard: like drinking,
Cláudia: everything oral. They like
Richard: to suck this little thing. The
Cláudia: soothers. And they put the finger in the mouth. Thumb in the mouth. So all these, they call it like erotism in the mouth, erotic things. They saw everything sexual.
Yeah. These crazy lunatics, they saw everything as sexual. And then the anophase, that people would have pleasure in playing with feces. Yeah. And the children from two to four, they would get pleasure in being aggressive, attacking, destroying.
Richard: Terrible twos, right?
Cláudia: Terrible
Richard: twos, we call it in English. There's even a
Cláudia: name for that period. The terrible twos, right? The kid suddenly becomes aggressive, starts biting.
Yeah. Right? And this is some sort of instinctual development. Then from four to six they should develop their genitality. They start to masturbate, to touch genitals, to be become interested in the other sex, and they start thinking that it's important to be beautiful and being worried with their
Richard: appearance, look
Cláudia: at me, yeah. So if the person like gets fixed attached to one of these three phases of pleasure or in the three of them, becoming too instinctive and leading the life just through pleasurable things, instinctive pleasurable things, they cannot grow, yeah.
They will not mature, they will not get to spiritual phase, they
Richard: don't go
Cláudia: to the next level. So they stay inverted, they stay upside down, they stay in this first phases of development, like animals, like like animals, because in in In childhood, this seems to be normal.
But in adults, it's neurosis psychosis, and we live a life of animals, which is being upside down. Now, going back to money thing, people who are attached to money and to link to matter, material, possessions, social power, economic power, These people are attached to the second phase, the anal phase. That's why they are so unpleasant, aggressive, unloving. Greedy. Greedy. Society is presently linked to this anal phase, mostly.
They were like stimulated to accept and to live the ano phase, which is being aggressive, like achieving power, having money,
Richard: material
Cláudia: possessions, and having having and not being, because after the seven phase we start giving value to the being, which is more psychological, which is more normal, it's more mature, it's more virtuous, it's more ethical and static and statical, yeah.
Richard: Isn't that interesting?
So
Cláudia: we become like inverted, also this is also an inversion. We prefer instincts and pleasure than psychological life and satisfaction and happiness. Don't you hear that a
Richard: lot Cláudia, when somebody says oh I'm not feeling very good today, I'm thinking I'm gonna go buy something, right? Yeah, when I was in Canada one time I was I was talking to some friends of mine and I sensed, because Canada is a country that has everything materially, I mean it's very well looked after material, the infrastructure is great and people have basically a good life, you know, of course there are people who suffer there, but for the most part people have a high standard of living like Sweden, and what I sensed in them was a kind of a desperation, because they had everything materially, but they were still not happy.
And so instead of trying to go deeper in that, they'd just say, well, I guess I need another vacation or I need to buy another car or I need a different house or I need a second house or I need a country home. I need a better vacation. It was all on that level, looking to find...
Cláudia: And they are absolutely scared of losing this material attachments It's as if life is having something and not being.
Richard: Now, you just said something brilliant because they're desperate not to lose it, which explains why they'll go along with all the taking away of human rights, of individual societal rights that's happening all over the place. You can only say certain things or you're canceled. You can't make this decision that's not in agreement with the common narrative. It's like they're terrified to let go of that.
So they'll
Cláudia: follow. Like lemmings
Richard: right over the cliff.
Cláudia: And pleasure is something that is always unsatisfiable. I mean, people always need more and more to have that pleasure. Happiness, it's different. If you feel satisfied, fulfilled, realized, happy, it's something that you don't need more and more and more. You just need to... Keep doing good and being good. That's the way.
Richard: And you're sort of content with what you have in that sense.
Cláudia: Absolutely. So you don't even think you need anything, like to have anything. It's a sense of plenitude.
Richard: Plenitude. A beautiful word,
Cláudia: plenitude. In the being but in having or in in the instincts we are upside down because we go upside down and we we sink more and more. Now for instance Richard we are talking about anophase and money, so companies in order to have more and more to feel more and more powerful and they think if they lose that power they will die, they will vanish, they will not exist anymore.
If they lose the money in the bank account or whatever they will not exist anymore, they are absolutely in life danger, and but this is not so. And so people want as you said to exploit more and more other people to get from them the reason to be secure, so they feel secure if they take from other people more and more for them as a guarantee.
So this is like animals, you know those little animals that take and they take to their homes and to
Richard: their squirrels and all those
Cláudia: things, they need that, they hide it as a safety. So
this
Richard: explains why a company like some of the banks in brazil that are making record profits, yes, are laying
Cláudia: off people at the same time, yes, so
Richard: they can make more money, yes, and I'm putting everything into artificial intelligence.
You can't talk to a person if you call the bank anymore and I don't remember the last time I went to a bank. You don't do anything, everything's done on the phone. So there there's this constant need then for them, you're putting this into a company sense that they have to have more and more and more to protect themselves because that's all they relate to.
Cláudia: Yes, and it's like a red flag if they don't do this. Their way is like they're, it's a, I'm a flasher.
Richard: Yeah, it's an arrow.
Cláudia: An arrow, go ahead, more money, take more, more profits, more money in the bank, and they need more and more, and this is the inverted arrow. The inverted bank. I mean, because your true bank is plenty of other kinds of richnesses.
Yeah. And so it's going the other way. It's going inverted.
Richard: Yeah. Causing more pain, more trauma.
Cláudia: More poverty.
Richard: More poverty.
Cláudia: Because richness, it comes from good work. Yeah. Useful, quality work. Useful work. Work that is needed, that is beautiful, that cause happiness to other people, that heal people, that help people, not kill them, rob from them, exploit them, and this idea that money brings money, speculation is rottening economy all over the world.
Who's working now? Less and less people, less and less
Richard: people, yeah,
Cláudia: they're not encouraged, no no,
Richard: they're actually preparing us not to work and to take government subsidies, right? Well, and look at that too. If you look at energy, how we're consuming the planet, trying to get more and more and more energy, so we've got the same problem. We're inverted at that level, trying to get energy from material, and we're ending up with everything, destroying everything.
Cláudia: No. This is a macro inversion. Yeah. Inversion in the macro sense. If we bring it to these micro-individual, meaning inside families, inside homes, inside towns, villages, institutions, you see the same thing. And people wanting to take from others, wanting to take, take, take, take affection, take sex, take money, take food, take anything from the others. And this is ruining family life, country life, whatever life.
Social life.
Richard: Social life. We live in a society, it's very difficult.
Cláudia: And sicker and sicker, and people get, you know what, Richard, to frustrate ourselves in the sense of pleasure, frustration is absolutely necessary for the balance, mental and physical and social balance. We need to be frustrated, if not by our parents, our teachers, we need to do this somehow, because if we don't we stick to this zero to six instinctive phase, we stick to pleasure and we leave aside everything that is important for our balance and development.
And when you
Richard: say to frustrate ourselves you're talking about in this material sense, in this sense
Cláudia: of pleasure, yes yes, not in terms of real happiness, right? No no, that should be totally unrestricted, yes, I mean eating, yeah, eating with uh parsimony, that's
Richard: a word we don't hear very often, but you have parsimonious, sure, my
Cláudia: grandmother would use that word parsimonious, they grew up in the depression of course so they had more of this sense, right Mike?
And if you don't give to the to the child what he wants, sugar, ice cream, whatever they they like in great quantities, they scream, they become
Richard: aggressive,
Cláudia: temper tantrum, temper tantrum, and and parents they give up and doing this, they are helping the child to be upside down and an adult that will not stand bare frustrations in in life, in anything, in work, in school, in relationships.
Don't you think
Richard: we're doing the same thing with people who say they want to change their gender? Absolutely,
Cláudia: if they
Richard: don't, if we if we don't give them that, they're like a kid in the supermarket,
Cláudia: they are in this stick to this genital phase. Yeah,
Richard: screaming and making this
Cláudia: huge... They stick to genital phase. Not only people who want to change their gender, but also erotic maniacs, psychopaths, nymphomaniacs, and we can say that after the 60s the humanity got a little bit...
Richard: A nymphomaniac. A
Cláudia: nympho-erotic maniac. Yeah, that's
Richard: for sure. Thinking that erotism, Erotismo is absolutely essential. Free love, right? Yes. If you
Cláudia: can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with. And then you love no one. Because sex is one thing. It's instinct. And love is another thing. And many times sex ruins love. Many times. You can't get along with a person all life long just with sex.
It ends up very quickly. No, absolutely. Because then you need another one and another one and another one to get that pleasure fulfilled.
Richard: Everybody's experienced this, Cláudia. Everybody's experienced this. So you take sex, the physical, instinctual part, and try to substitute it for love, which many people do, are never happy.
Cláudia: So psychoanalysts must frustrate their clients all the time. This is a very difficult, heavy task.
Because it's like every every time, look, you are looking up in the wrong direction, you should look behind, look behind, look inside. It's not this one thing that will make you happy, is the opposite, is the opposite, is the opposite. It's like always all the time you're going to the wrong direction, go behind, go to the other opposite direction. So if you want to be loved, then love first.
If you want to make money, bring money to other people. See how you can help other people. Be generous. Be generous
Richard: and help them with money even,
Cláudia: with teaching them how to make money. If you are wanting to fight with another person, on the opposite, try to be tolerant. I try to be loving and help that person. This is, by the way, Jesus Christ's teachings in the
Richard: Sermon on the Mountain.
Cláudia: He spoke about inversion there.
Richard: All of these things.
Cláudia: He spoke about inversion.
Richard: He didn't call it that, of course.
Cláudia: No, but now in science we can understand it.
Richard: The meek shall inherit the earth. He inverted all
Cláudia: of the things. Do you think the powerful will inherit the world? No, of course not. It's exactly right. Everything was an opposite. Yes.
Richard: That he said there.
Cláudia: The true dialectic, disinverted. Incredible. Well, of course, and now in science we see this absolutely in practice. Wow. I would love if our listeners would come with practical questions. Because in practice, science shows its efficiency, okay? So, as we have a science that comes together with philosophy and theology, the answer can be even, like, more encompassing.
Richard: Yes, yes, yes, for sure.
Cláudia: More, like, a broader answer, more complete, because we have philosophy and theology together
Richard: with science.
I just produced a couple of podcasts from an old program we did about death, A woman wrote an email about problems she was having dealing with the upcoming death of her young sister, her dear sister. And I edited two programs together about that old program we did. So these kinds of questions really give you an opportunity to explore. It's very beautiful.
Cláudia: So let's go ahead and we will find in every area a means to explain inversion, inside-out, upside-down, wrong arrows.
Richard: Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. And her request for your questions and comments is a sincere one, let me tell you. Keppe and Pacheco's science of Analytical Trilogy or integral psychoanalysis works very well for resolving everyday issues like nothing else I know of. So fire away, joneshealing at gmail.com. That's joneshealing at gmail.com. I'll look forward to hearing from you.
