Richard Lloyd Jones: Richard Lloyd Jones at This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Oil and water. Black cats and white sweaters. Neckties and bowls of pasta. Some things just aren't made to go together. Like being given plastic cutlery at a Brazilian barbecue restaurant. They're all a bit difficult to reconcile. Some more profound examples could include faith and doubt. Humility and self-confidence. And what about God and science?
Today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, the marriage of theology and science. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head proudly streams on the Stop Radio Network. You can get us there 24-7 through iTunes talk radio stations or through the free TuneIn app. We're also available as individual podcasts through iTunes podcasts or wherever fine podcasts are sold.
Well, this is a touchy subject I'm embarking on here.
I'm aware of that, the marriage of theology and science, but I feel I would be doing a disservice if I didn't address this subject. I say this because of the fundamental questions that can only be addressed if we wade into these modernly controversial waters. Questions like, what is the origin of life in the universe? What is the purpose of life anyway? And more existential even, why am I here?
We can't begin to tackle these questions without a consideration of today's topic. Well, these questions don't occupy our conversations much these days, if they ever did. The Facebook posts we read seldom broach the existential, beyond the collective questioning that we might embark on after a tragedy occurs or a famous person dies. I was recently visiting my aging parents in Canada, and their diminished quality of life has caused no small reflection on my own life and purpose.
So there are times when we venture into the reverie that generates this discussion. It is rare, though, especially in recent years, it appears. We are not much for the deeper considerations in our materialistic and consumerist society today. And I don't think this has been that positive. What's it all about, Elfie? Seems a faintly anachronistic and old-fashioned question today, doesn't it? Or is it that we're just embarrassed to admit that we ponder those questions?
Admittedly, late at night, when no one's watching. This precious little reflection of life's mysteries in our modern art. The poets and songwriters mostly seem intent on considering love only from the how-am-I-going-to-live-without-him-or-her position. In that light, I just finished reading Leonard Cohen's biography and was touched by the deep yearning he has had over his long career to explore the profound and the profane.
So I know it's not completely uncool to pose the deeper questions. Well, in fact, actually, you know, who cares if it's uncool to be involved in understanding the human situation? I'm not sure when displaying profundity became unmodern, but I'm all for returning to a time when the artists considered they were conversing with the beyond, and a human being wanted to consider his short life as fitting within some larger purpose and design.
You know, in large part, I think what's going on here is a result of the splitting of science from theology and philosophy over the past five hundred years or so, culminating in our twentieth-century position that there's no way to marry the three. Science has become a strictly materialistic pursuit, perfectly represented in Einstein's famous formula, the most famous of the twentieth century, that E equals mc squared.
In other words, no matter, no energy, making Einstein's theory arguably one of the most materialistic in the history of science. I'm sure that wasn't his intention, of course, but it's hard to escape the stark materialism of his proposal. It's also difficult to distill a coherent spiritual philosophy from the quantum physics camp. Parallel realities, alternate universes, unlimited realities awaiting your choice to come into being.
How to make sense of that in any practical way? I watched What the Bleep Do We Know, the documentary exposing the quantum physics philosophy. I watched it a couple of times, and I must confess couldn't make head or tails of it. I mean, it seems sexy to consider the universe a series of possibilities awaiting my choice before unfolding reality, but I somehow can't quite conclude that reality actually bends to my will no matter how hard I wish it so.
The architect's speech from Matrix Reloaded is a classic example of how confused we become by this separation of science and theology. Critics call the movie profound but confusing. And it is that. Listen. Here's a quote from the movie. The first matrix was perfect, flawless, sublime, a triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. What the hell does that mean? And since when did confusing become profound?
Now, we need a better starting point than this, a starting place that can be found in the work of Norberto Keppe. His Analytical Trilogy is the synthesis of science, philosophy, and theology that has been missing. Keppe considers philosophy to be the mother of science and theology the grandmother, and it's very illuminating to look at reality through Analytical Trilogy eyes. Let's do that today.
Is it even possible? Stay with us. You'll find out.
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Illness lies in our resistance to consciousness. Norberto Cappi. Disinverting the human being and society.
Thinking
Richard: with Somebody Else's Head is on the Stop Radio Network. Hello, I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and our subject today is a fascinating one for me.
I mean, I grew up like most of us in a purely scientific environment, meaning materialistic science, right? The modern science that we all follow today, and never thought about how you could marry theology with science. It never entered my head. It certainly never entered the subjects we studied in school when I was a kid. And so what we'd like to try to do today, Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco is with me, is to try to bring the incredible wisdom from 5,000 years of theological and philosophical study back into science.
At some point along the way, it was cut. That kind of knowledge was cut from science. Or at least maybe we want to start the process of understanding that. And, you know, Norberto Keppe's books will fill out your knowledge significantly.
Fascinating reading and lots of it there for you if you're interested in delving into this more.
One of the discoveries here in Brazil that I think is really bridging this gap between theology and science is the application of Keppe's disinversion of metaphysics to result in the Keppe motor. And let's start our conversation there with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco today. Cláudia, how do you see this Keppe motor's importance, especially in light of this consideration of bringing theology back into science?
Cláudia: Motor is like a practical material proof about these metaphysical theses of Dr. Keppe.
Richard: Can we talk about the metaphysical theses
Cláudia: of Dr. Keppe? Yes, sure. Because
Richard: I love this subject. We have the Keppe Motor in Moscow now and being well received there by the Russians. The Keppe Motor is real proof of Keppe's metaphysical theories. And this
Cláudia: is very interesting because they just came from Paris and they had a meeting in the Lycée des Arts et Métiers, which is a very, very knowledgeable, very well-known place, technological center of France.
Richard: And very practical, positivistic scientists are amazed to see how such a spiritual philosophy can produce such a practical device, which is the Keppe motor. Let's talk about the basis of this then, because it's probably not very well understood. And we're going to have a little difficult time probably explaining it in radio. But the idea being very different from traditional physics, right? Traditional physics based almost entirely on material and motion.
And Keppe Motor using
completely different philosophy, different
Cláudia: theories. Can you summarize that for us quickly? Is that possible to you? Well, as Keppe puts, this disinverted metaphysics, so he disinverted physics as well. And one of the main principles he brings is that energy does not come from matter, but the other way around. Or it could be even that matter is energy, but it's a byproduct of energy, invisible energy.
Richard: Yeah, this is the primary energy, not the secondary energy of electromagnetic energy.
Cláudia: So
Richard: maybe we should talk about this primary energy. What is this? How do we understand this? How are you seeing this?
Cláudia: It's an energy coming from space. The whole universe has it. And according to Keppe and his thesis, this energy is a kind of divine energy coming from God, which must be the first source that is producing or giving or offering freely an enormous amount of power.
And not an electric power or destructive power, dangerous power, but it's a soft, natural, in terms of possibilities of produce, movement and work.
Richard: And as I understand it, this divine energy, essential energy coming from God, is what then...
Cláudia: And no motors can identify or measure this energy. Keppe was able to find a means to capture the energy and transform it in movement, for instance, as the Keppe motor does.
Richard: There's no way we're going to be able to describe this on a radio
Cláudia: program. No, and I'm not entitled to do
Richard: that because I'm not an engineer. So much less am I able
Cláudia: to. What we know is some notions about the theory that Keppe developed. And
Richard: this idea then, the theory is that there's this divine energy, essential energy originating from God, which then moves into two areas.
It creates from this essential energy matter and this secondary energy of electromagnetic energy.
Cláudia: Well, it creates many levels of vibration. And depending on the vibrational status of this energy, then you find this kind of elements of creation or the universe, starting from even from invisible creatures or beings, which are also not necessarily tested in physical motors. But it has been already captured a lot through cameras and pictures and radio.
You can many times capture this kind of invisible energy coming from this spiritual world, as you say, spiritual beings. Invisible, like non-material bodies. And then depending on the degree of vibration of the being, then you have in a lower scale, you have a man and like a human being, which is composed by this kind of energy, which is double manifested in a double way.
Like we
Richard: have in tandem,
Cláudia: not separated. We have the tendency to explain double, but we are not double. And this is a Cartesian mistake, a big mistake in Cartesian platonic concepts. That we are, even Aristotelic concepts, that we would be like body and soul, like two kind of elements. Separate elements. And that are interconnected, but they
Richard: are separate. In reality, Keppe says that
Cláudia: we are just one energy, which manifests also in the physical material realm, like we are just one in one vibration.
Richard: We have a new friend joining us. I thought I'd just introduce him and bring him in. He may not have anything to ask at this point, but I want to make sure that people listening understand. A new American friend has joined us from the Chicago area, Bob Butler. Just say hi, Bob. You can just... Hello. What a voice. Hello.
Cláudia: He has a beautiful voice, by the
Richard: way.
Absolutely beautiful voice.
Cláudia: Yeah. And he came down to Brazil, to São Paulo, to train himself in Analytical Trilogy. Because he has the intention in going back to the United States, bringing some contribution to his fellow man, to Americans, to people there, about this new science. This trilogical science that he's studying and learning and progressing. And
Richard: I'll do a podcast with Bob about his experience here in the future.
But I just want to introduce you, Bob. If you ever have any question to pop in with, just feel free to do that. But I wanted to
Cláudia: say, Cláudia, then we were having a very interesting conversation on the beach a couple of weeks ago. I remember.
Richard: And as I was walking down the beach talking with you about the history of theology, really, and Keppe's view of this and your understanding of it, I was watching other people walking down the beach and wondering, I wonder what they're talking about?
Because we're having this like incredible conversation about the history of theology and philosophy. And you said something kind of fundamental. You said that look at all of the knowledge that we've lost because we cut a theological perspective from our scientific view. Yeah. And I'd love you to talk a little bit about
Cláudia: that. And it's interesting because Auguste Comte, that French, philosopher French, who started with positivism, he saw humanity in three phases.
The first phase theological, the second philosophical, and the third scientific, right? This is the same classification of Keppe and of Giacchino di Fiori, who is a talent theologian of the Middle Age. And they had this notion of this Trinitarian organization of history. So history was then organized in three major phases. Now, Capi and De Fiori, for instance, they see the first phase as the most important one, the theological phase, most like in a higher level phase of knowledge.
Even though many of those information they brought to humanity was, like, revealed to them through intuition or through personal direct contact with spiritual beings or God himself. So, positivistic people question this kind of communication. But the information they brought to humanity was incredibly important, was the basis for all. Like Moses, the information that he brought, the instructions he brought, were the most important, essential ones.
If they would have been followed, we would not have this chaos in the world at the moment. But this incredibly advanced knowledge of theology and the theologians, this should be added to the philosophy or the philosophical phase, which came mostly with Christianity. So all this understanding of theology and philosophy, this was not something just to throw out and start all over again because this materialistic approach of science, it's very poor in terms of philosophy and theology.
For millenniums, all humanity was bringing incredible, incredible intelligent contributions of some wise men and philosophers and heroes and thinkers and even scientists, physicians. Physicians in the Middle Ages, they were much more advanced than present-day physicians. They were all theological. So all this knowledge that was brought and was a very rich experience of people was just thrown away, especially in the late 19th century and 20th century, when the materialistic science took the power of very dogmatic, opinionated kind of behavior.
So taking away the philosophical metaphysics... Theological and theological aspects of science. Science was like a deviation from this main road that humanity was developing. So, when we were reaching a peak of development in the late 18th and 19th century, then humanity just took a detour. A dead-end detour. And now we are arriving to
Richard: the end of this detour. Yeah, the end of the detour because Keppe Science has integrated philosophy and theology back into the discipline to make a complete thing again.
Yeah, well, that's great. We've got to take a break, Cláudia. We're back in just a moment. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Stop Radio Network. The marriage of theology with science, another great topic. Don't go away. We're coming right back.
Richard: A key inversion in science.
Cesar Soós: Always we are trying to extract energy from a material element.
Richard: And its negative consequences.
Cesar: We provoke serious imbalances in nature.
Richard: Corrected now with the Keppe Motors disinversion of physics.
Cesar: And we developed a way to have mechanical power with very little electricity. This
Cláudia: will make a big change, not only in energetic efficiency, but also it will bring better energy in homes because it's magnetic energy.
Richard: The Keppe Motor, new technology for a new world.
Learn the truth about energy and matter. Dr.
We live our lives based on opinions we seldom question. They come to us from family and education, from politics and protest, from TV shows and talk radio. Our worldview is mostly formed from other people's ideas.
And whether we know it or not, we are Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. But what if what we believe is limited, incomplete, or just plain wrong? It's a sobering thought, and one which has an enormous impact on how we see the world and how we live our lives. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is a radio program that offers a clear and scientific view of what's really going on.
The program is based on the landmark work of psychoanalyst and social scientist Dr. Norberto Cappi to provide us with the expansive philosophical, theological, and scientific overview we need to question, define, and explain the human experience. Join host Richard Lloyd Jones and explore the concepts we take for granted to discover if you are Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. The main characteristic of illness is lack of awareness.
Norberto Keppe. Disinverting the human being and society, this is the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, proudly streaming on our very own Stop Radio Network. We have lots of sites you can get more information.
That has sort of the majority of information about what we do down here in Brazil.
And it's a lot. It's extremely expansive work. You're touching into a little bit of that in our program today just to get a sense of the breadth of the work. But there's lots more available for you there, including books by Norberto Keppe and Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, too. Well worth reading if you want to explore more of the ideas we're talking about in our program.
Cláudia, before the break, you were talking about this detour, this bad detour that science has made. And I wanted to sort of follow up on that by getting some idea from you about the consequences of this detour. What have we lost as we've accepted only material phenomena as scientific? I mean, this cutting of theology and philosophy from science has had big and serious consequences, hasn't it?
Can you tell us a bit more about that? How do you see this detour, the consequences of this detour in science?
Cláudia: Well, if we speak very, very simply and openly, we just gave up ethics, statics, the humanitarian or, as they say, invisible world, which is the most powerful. The soul of society and man was lost. So everything that is more powerful in in us, which is this invisible dimension, we we could name that we are 70 percent invisible energy and maybe 30 percent material corporeal energy.
So we are much more invisible beings than visible in terms of energy, and everything that is manifested physically is a manifestation of the invisible energy. So what is going wrong in our invisible dimension is manifested in the physical dimension. So if we are like decaying or if you have a problem in terms of this invisible energy, it will rapidly manifest in our bodies as a symptom, as a manifestation.
So we lost the most powerful and rich dimension of humanity. And as Keppe puts, we are ourselves motors. We are like accumulators, or we can grasp this energy and pass it to the world and apply it constructively. But if we deny it, then we lose an enormous amount of power of knowledge and development, because we deny what we have of the most precious thing we deny.
Richard: And this, I think, is one of the things that's very powerful about the Keppe motor because it's in a physical way showing that there is this other energy that we can capture. And so if that's true, that we're not just material, motors are not just material, then this has enormous implications for us as people, too. And we look at how we're
Cláudia: destroying the material of the planet because of this materialism.
You want to see something according to theological concepts. I know that the Catholic Orthodox Church, which is mostly in Russia and in some other eastern European countries, very, very powerful there, they have a notion that God has inherent to his being the divine energy. And this divine energy is what he uses to communicate and to interact with the universe and human beings.
So if everybody would have considered this as a reality, they would have researched more in this area. And that's what Keppe did. And not saying that he started from theological concepts, but he always respected and considered theological concepts in his science. And through science and adding to theology and philosophy, he was able to see in a longer distance, like a dwarf in the shoulders of a giant would see even further.
Richard: So that's what he did. And he saw that there is this spiritual dimension that we have inside that captures, has the potential to capture this more sophisticated,
Cláudia: more vibrational,
Richard: higher
Cláudia: vibrational energy.
Richard: And this is
Cláudia: what brings us health, but not just health. It brings creativity,
Richard: ideas, knowledge, and by cutting from this with the positivistic...
Cláudia: He became a stupid civilization. That we are in a dead-end civilization, no ethics, no nothing, no even knowing how to deal with the matter.
Matter is like being destroyed by us and not being correctly used. We are destroying, attacking nature.
Richard: And I feel this oil spill we're seeing now in the Gulf of Mexico is kind of like a continuing signal to us that we've reached the end. We cannot go further in this materialistic view that we have to make a change. We have to return to the thinking we had hundreds of years ago.
Cláudia: Now, you know, very practically, how Keppe, as a psychoanalyst, got to the understanding of energy? As by, like, two currents or two components, that all vibrational energy or all energy is dual. It's
Richard: not action-reaction. No,
Cláudia: it's dual, but not one against the other. Action-complementation.
Richard: Yeah, complementation.
Cláudia: So studying the human being or attending patients, he always dealt with the inner self, with the inner life, with the psychological life, non-material.
He never used drugs. He never used anything material to treat his clients other than dialogue, other than intuition, telepathic communication, like psychological communication. Psychological treatment. Purely, purely psychological. Even not social, but mostly, mostly the inner life. Keppe was the psychologist or psychoanalyst per excellence. Because he never treated his patients using anything physical or anything even social. Because he does really a psychotherapy oriented to the inner life.
So by doing so, he was able to heal, like spontaneously heal, through this working with this energetic level, psychological, he was able to heal diseases that were considered terminal diseases or incurable diseases, chronic diseases. And so going further in this direction, he realized how powerful the human mind was. That this energy was even able to correct DNA mistakes, chromosomes, just through dialogue, just through consciousness.
That consciousness was an incredibly powerful tool. And then studying more in like the being and the principles of the metaphysical principles of the ancient Greeks and philosophers and even theology. He got to this understanding that we are like, we are double, like we are feeling and reason that is love and reason that must come together. We have two sides of the brain that must be in harmony.
So he was able to apply, disinverted, disinverting metaphysics. He was able to apply all this disinversion to psychology, psychoanalysis, neurosis, psychosis, physical organic diseases, social diseases, scientific diseases, as we could name them, like the diseases in science, the mistakes in science. Economy. Economy. I mean, so he was going further and further. And it is as if he discovered a key, a central master key to open doors.
And this feeds all doors in civilization to see the basic mistakes of each field. And he got to physics. And so by his, in applying his theories, two engineers were able to apply this to mechanics and to electronics. And here the motor came and the capture of this new principle or the principle of capturing this essential energy, free energy, has been developed and it must be much more developed because they have all this new field in front of them.
Richard: It's a brave new world, isn't it? I think it's interesting to consider how this understanding of the inversion in science is feeding our destruction. Science, stripped of its metaphysical roots, is like one leg growing excessively and throwing our body into complete disequilibrium. Reconnecting science with correct metaphysics is an essential step for human evolution, and I know of no other place that this is happening outside of Norberto Keppe's International Society of Analytical Trilogy.
That's our program for this time. The program, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, is on the Stop Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
Since the
Cláudia: beginning of all civilizations, they had always manifested an enormous interest and knowledge about the spiritual life and spiritual beings.
Richard: It's a world of ancient wisdom that modern science has eliminated.
Cesar: The arising philosophy of positivism preferred to base science on material happenings.
Cláudia: So, only what you can see and touch and feel is real.
Richard: Now, spirituality is being put back into science.
Cláudia: Imagine what would happen if people start considering this as a real thing. Not only as a religious thing, but also a real scientific thing.
Imagine what would happen.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and welcome to the Stop Radio Network. We broadcast from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. And our programs, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head and Healing Through Consciousness, offer the most relevant conversations around about the state of our world and what we can do to make it better.
