Richard Lloyd Jones: Spending on medical technology is growing. Drug prescriptions are flying out of doctor's offices. Drug companies are throwing new drugs on the market continually. And all this vaunted medical care is killing us in record numbers. We're getting sicker and sicker, and our medical perspective is leading us further and further from the solution. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, true medicine.
You know, there's much coming out of the psychosomatic department at Norberto Keppe's International Society of Analytical Trilogy that is groundbreaking. Keppe is a true pioneer in the field. For over 50 years, he's been curing people of severe and minor health conditions, from cancer and AIDS to migraines and eczema, using nothing more than psychoanalysis. Albeit psychoanalysis with some teeth in it, as evidenced by its ability to cut to the core of the issue, rather than just moving things around on the surface like so much of today's health techniques, including even the highly touted alternative methods.
More in a minute. First, a reminder of our International Congress on Analytical Trilogy, July 4th to 6th, 2008, here in Brazil. Our webpage is up now, www.trilogycongress.org. This will be an in-depth look at many practical applications of Norberto Keppe's work in psychosociopathology that will bring you a lot of consciousness. And maybe even inspire you to study with us to learn more so you can apply it in your field of action.
Check out the site www.trilogycongress.org and write me if you're interested in learning more, rich at richjonesvoice.com. Speaking of education, I'm working with Dr. Cláudia Pacheco, my guest on today's show, to develop a very exciting teleclass series for those interested in learning more about Analytical Trilogy and discovering how it can help you in your careers, your relationships, your health, and in general understanding of the world.
You can make sure you're on our waiting list if you're interested in that, rich at richjonesvoice.com. Norberto Keppe is the name of the brilliant Austrian-Brazilian psychoanalyst whose extraordinary work forms the basis of this program. And Keppe has elaborated the first true psychology the world has ever seen. Where others have gotten only so far as seeing human problems stemming from sex and family problems or trauma or society's influence or chemical imbalances, Keppe has redefined the field to lead us back to the source of all our problems inside ourselves, which then also manifest outward in our greater society.
If we feel bad, Keppe asserts, it's because of some denial or rejection of health inside us. Thus, our attitudes and ideas and emotions need attention. This has huge implications in the area of physical health, of course, as we'll discuss today, much more than the food we eat or the vitamins we ingest or even the DNA we have.
Dr. Cláudia Pacheco, you say in your new book, Keeping an Eye on Your Health, that our bodies reveal what we don't see in ourselves. Talk a little bit about the relationship between our psychological life and the physical functioning of our body. "When
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: people come to do analysis, Richard, many times, very often, they don't mention, they don't even mention organic illnesses because they don't realize that all these illnesses, these symptoms, they have a direct connection between their intentions, their attitudes, and the physical manifestation of those.
So I'll give you an example, a practical example. I have a client and she was looking at one of my books. And she said, what an interesting thing. I never imagined that psychoanalysis could heal organic diseases. So that's why then, now I have the explanation of why during the past months I have healed from allergic manifestations as rhinitis, the inflammation of the throat and this gland you have here, we say it in Portuguese, amidalis."
Richard: These are the tonsils.
Cláudia: And she had this so severe that she couldn't swallow, she couldn't speak. And she had a frequent migraine, severe migraine. And she took lots of painkillers and pills that were supposed to heal her, at least to get rid of the symptoms, but even so, she could not handle the intensity and frequency of those migraines. She had herpes in her lips very often, and very frequently she had this inflammation in the eyelid.
So she had all those symptoms when she came, but she never mentioned them to me. And she was diagnosed by a psychiatrist as a maniac depressive or bipolar person or having this symptomatology, and she was medicated, heavily medicated for 10 years. She started analysis, she very fast diminished and stopped totally the pills she was taking, and gradually in a couple of weeks she got so much better that she could stay out of the pills, and also all the symptoms disappeared.
Richard: What was she dealing with psychologically, Cláudia, that helped her to treat these physical conditions?
Cláudia: Yeah. So the physical conditions, Jones, came from the depression of the psychoimmune system. As she was depressing the consciousness, the vibration, the inner vibration of her psychological inner life, she was diminishing also the energetic vibrations of her cells, and this affects the psychogenetic system, creating many symptoms. As she was gradually getting more and more conscious of her, the cause of her depression, which was very much linked to her envy towards her husband.
They work together, they produce, they organize concerts, operas and artistic performances, and her husband is very capable, and she had a conflict with him, and she got very frequently envious at his success. And she used to say that in, in her partnership and working together with her husband, she had the idea that her husband didn't give any value to her.
So as long as she started to see that she didn't give value to what she was accomplishing. She denied the value of this beautiful work she accomplished with her husband when she started to see that she was very much disturbed because of her envy towards him. So her depression started to fade away. And accepting to see this, accepting this problematic, she got healed.
This is amazing because
Richard: Dr. Keppe one of the foundations of Dr. Keppe's work is this idea that sickness is the absence of health, the destruction of health. And so knowing that, that if somebody is sick showing some physical or psychological conditions because they're denying something that's true about themselves, this is very important for us to talk more about. I think it's not well known
Cláudia: in the world.
Yes. And I can give you another example, very fresh one of one client that just left my clinic today.
She's a teacher and she has a syndrome of hypochondria. So she imagines she is sick. Sometimes she thinks she gets so much worried because she thinks she is getting deaf. And then she imagines that she's having arthritis and she will get all deformed. And she teaches biology and physiology. So by doing so, she's in touch with many, many matters around diseases and how this physiology of the disease develops, etc.
So every time she studies or she's teaching one disease, she thinks she has that one disease. This is very frequent with psychiatrists and psychologists. When they start studying psychopathology, they think they have all that symptoms. So they are getting crazy or they are schizophrenic or they are maniac depressive or whatever. All of us suffer from many crazy attitudes that it's kind of normal that we have them and we have to deal with them.
But this fear, this panic of physical illnesses is a kind of escape mechanism, Jones. It's a mechanism of escape from reality. "So today she came And she said she was called by the director of this school and he brought a complaint that the students, her students brought to the director against some problems she was presenting in the classroom. And the classroom was not being well organized, she was not teaching well, the results were not good, they were not learning, they were not following her classes.
And she said, I fell from the sky when this happened because I could never, ever imagine this was going on with my students in the classroom. So, this was totally new. How come I was all the time, all this time, not realizing what was going on in the school, in my classroom, and I am in the verge of being fired from the school, expulsed."
Pulsed. "And I wonder why the students didn't tell me those things. Maybe they got scared if they would tell me I would get angry. So what happened then, Jones? I asked her, but haven't you been living in your bubble all this time with your delirious thoughts about your illnesses, just thinking about you and your disease, your imaginary diseases and your deliriums. And she said, yes, but what this has to do with this?
And I said, so this is the mechanism of escape that you use not to deal with what you find more repulsive, which are the psychological problems that you have. So you prefer to be, to see yourself as a victim, as a victim of a disease, than to see that you act, that you have psychopathology. So this is a price we have to pay, Jones, when we want to get better, organically better, we have to pay the price of seeing our psychological problems."
How we are psychologically
Richard: against this life force inside us. Dr. Keppe said it this way. "He said that illness appears because the person's immune system loses force because of something internal." Yes. "And if we lose force, then anything causes imbalance."
Cláudia: Yes. "And why and how our immune system loses force? Loses force because we waste a lot of energy in stress. And where stress comes from, from the fear of seeing reality, from the denial of seeing, because of our envy for instance.
We are so much against the perception of all the qualities and the beauty that is around us, so we have this tendency to be nasty, to be aggressive, to be lazy, to have our will inverted. And this consciousness, all this consciousness we don't want to face, so we get tense. Either we are in panic when we have to face an error, a mistake, a bad intention in ourselves or in our beloved ones, or sometimes we are so much afraid to recognize that there are people that are better than we are, more beautiful, more capable, they, they dedicate themselves more than we do."
So what did I do with my talents? So all these perceptions are so much rejected that they cause an enormous tension. And this is the book I wrote, Healing Through Consciousness, Theomania and Stress, how this megalomaniac narcissistic idea that we have about ourselves being perfect, and this idea of perfection. So what price do we pay for this mental problem?
Richard: Well, we see this in the classroom all the time, Cláudia.
These young people come, or middle-aged people, whatever it is, and they're terrified to see a mistake. And when they speak in a second language, English or German or Italian, whatever they're learning, when they speak in this second language, they see nothing but mistakes. This is terrifying to them, so they just don't speak. And I can see as I'm speaking to them, They have these eyes wide open like they're a deer caught in the headlights, you know, and there's a car coming at them.
Like ice. They can't escape. They can't get out.
Cláudia: It's totally based on this idea of I'm better than I really am or I have an idea about myself that's not true. Yes. So this is like a dialectic always between narcissism, theomania or megalomania, and envy. So if I am the best, so I have to be perfect, but I have to admit that I'm not the best.
So I envy other people that are better than I am, and my narcissism is hurt because of this, and my megalomania is hurt because of this. So it's hell, and we create hell inside of us, and we ruin our health.
Richard: We did a series of teleclasses a couple of years ago, Cláudia, that has been turned into a very interesting book now based on Dr.
Keppe's work in the new physics. And during one of these teleclasses, we had a title of one of Dr. Keppe's texts called Only Energy Can Heal Illness.
And you said something beautiful in relation to that. You said how profound this title is. And you said it means that neither diet nor pharmaceutical drugs nor operations can heal our bodies. Only this essential scalar energy we've been talking about in this program can do this. So we need to start looking within for answers, not outside. Can you talk a little bit about this essential energy field that we need to have?
Cláudia: "When we speak about essential energy, what do we mean about that? So, should you stay meditating with the universe, with the cosmos? This is not exactly what we mean. What we mean is that energy, essential energy, is a kind of light. It's a kind of vibration. It's an energetic vibration, which is very much related to higher levels of psychological factors, like, for instance, ideals, beauty, aesthetics, goodness, culture, truth."
So, we are endowed with incredible capacities, knowledge, the universals we have inside of us, which are the perfect concepts of things that exist in the cosmos. So because of the envy, Jones, we diminish this inner vibration, we diminish our ideals, we diminish our goodness, our feelings of love, our passion for life, our happiness, our joy, the beauty that we see around us, the beauty of creation.
So we diminish, we attack, we destroy, destroy all these wonders of our lives, and we create a kind of a hell in advance to live. So every insight we have, it's a kind of an insight, it's a kind of illumination, inner energizing process. Every consciousness you get, like oh what an insight, this allows energy to come in. So every insight, every perception that is uniting feeling and understanding, the true realization of things in life, this is very energizing.
So that's why when you are working, when you are acting with a good intention, you have plenty of good insights, so you have this all the time, all the time, all the time. So you are energizing yourself all the time. That's why a composer can, can stay for hours, as sometimes days, composing a piece of marvelous music, because they are energized by that energy that comes through their thoughts, their feelings, their brain, and this, this energy invades our psychoimmune system, our psychogenetics, our cells.
So in we energize our beings when we are dealing and doing and living the higher scales of our lives.
Richard: But Cláudia, we can I think that this only happens for the geniuses, but I think what you're suggesting
Cláudia: is that this is for everybody, that we have the same access, right? The same access. Why do we use just a tiny percentage of our brain capacity?
Because of this, because of this unconscious envy. So, if I look, Jones, another example. It's very common couples fighting, like lovers fighting. And they think when there is love, there is hate. When there is love, there is jealousy. When there is love, there is fighting.
Richard: This proves that there's love, right? If you have this jealousy.
Cláudia: It's a kind of thing in this situation.
You know why? Because if you love and if you are envious, you will fight against the beloved object, the love object. So if you have a girlfriend and if you feel too much attracted to her beauty or to her qualities, and if you are envious and you don't see, you will start fighting against this girl and you will lose her, you will break the relationship.
This happens every day, all the time, and children do this to their parents, parents do this sometimes to their children, we do this with our partners, with our friends.
So, when I look at someone that has beauty, goodness, capacity, this immediately triggers these feelings of envy or this attitude of envy. And if I'm not aware of this, this will work inside and I will hate the loved object and I will attack it. This loving object could be a person or like a material thing, like the planet, like my job, my job.
Sometimes I love so much a dress and I spoil the dress, pouring on the dress some coffee or something, and I mistreat objects that I like very much, and this is all linked to this inversion that comes from envy.
Richard: I was going to say this is a very clear example of inversion because if you love the thing but you're expressing hate towards it, this is an inverted energy.
Yes. And this inverted energy, let me see if I get this right, we receive the energy in a pure way, but then we invert it because of our envy, our narcissism as you're talking.
What effect does this have inside our physical structure?
Cláudia: Well, for instance, Joan, it's very practical. So it's very common. When you admire a woman, the tendency will be to somatize this in your body and use the sex to destroy that feeling that is too strong for the person to stand. Then you want to take her to bed because then you somatize that feeling that was very much intense.
So you have that woman in the bed in order to like it's it diminishes the vibration to a level, to a material level, that you can't handle the situation. The same thing when you see a beautiful thing in in a place and then you want to buy it. You can't stand without buying that thing because when you buy it you possess that thing.
You somatize, you materialize your feeling, your admiration. Some people, many many millionaires, they are so envious, they want to own the world.
All women, all cars, all possessions, all yachts, everything. Because they can't stand admiring, being grateful, feeling psychologically, being psychological in their attitudes. They want to materialize everything so they can handle their envy.
Richard: I'm thinking of a great example from a movie that shows this, Cláudia. It's The Girl with the Pearl Earring, this great painting of Vermeer. They made a movie of it.
Vermeer was being supported by this very rich guy and this rich guy had the sense of domination over Vermeer. And so every painting this guy painted, Vermeer, the rich guy would end up with it in his room. And at the end of the movie he has this beautiful picture of the girl with the pearl earring and he's sitting there in this room with all of this art surrounding him and he's looking at it and he's desperate because he's tried to buy the thing as you say, to reduce the thing, the the beauty, the love, to a possession.
And
Cláudia: he's completely devastated in this experience. Yes, and in relationships, this is devastating too. Want to control, to dominate, to possess the beloved being. This is very envious. And I would now want to mention, Jones, that the biggest feeling of envy of all is towards God because he is the powerful.
Richard: The creator of everything.
Cláudia: He owns everything. He owns even myself, my life.
So if I cannot be humble enough to recognize this, I'll create a lot of trouble to me and to the planet and to cosmos.
Richard: We talked in our teleclass book, The New Physics, about how this affects even our DNA. Yes. That we can distort the DNA in our bodies. How does that
Cláudia: happen? What's that process? Because of the energy. Because the DNA is moved by essential energy.
It's like a vortex. It's the same principle as in the atom and the model of Keppe, that in the new physics book you can read and study.
It's not easy to understand because people are attached to those old-fashioned kind of traditional concepts of physics
Richard: and genetics. But it's very logical. I should just mention before you get to that quality, those books are available for download on our site, so
Cláudia: they can write to me about that. And there is a manual to understand the book if you have difficulties.
Richard: Which we need.
But
Cláudia: those who are more open-minded, they can understand. It's very obvious and very clear and rational that the DNA works like this spiral thing. It's like a vortex and takes energy to the cell. So if the energy is depressed, is cut
Richard: away, blocked, cut
Cláudia: off. By any attitude, energetic attitude, depression, sadness, anger, fear, so the energy, this color energy which comes through the psychological life to us will be like hindered to get where it should get.
So, when you talk about the embryos and these cells...
Richard: Stem cells?
Cláudia: Stem cells. So, these stem cells are naturally used by our organism, by our inner pharmacy. They are naturally, spontaneously used by our nature to heal many diseases. We don't need to have an artificial implant of them. Our body takes care if we let it to take care. If you are not too neurotic, the body will have possibilities to work without our interference.
Richard: Yeah, so medicine works strictly on this, modern medicine today, strictly on this idea of interference, right? It's trying to impede in some way, not to help the body.
Cláudia: Yes, and to create even more problems and more symptoms, the iatrogenic diseases caused by doctors, pharmaceutical companies, and hospitals.
Richard: Keppe's books on the new physics and the origin of illness challenge and redefine our current scientific and psychological perspectives, and in the process, lay out the basis for a new and comprehensive science linked up again with the truths in philosophy and even theology.
This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Write me anytime, rich at richjonesvoice.com.
