Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I was browsing through a friend's Facebook timeline the other day and came across her New Year's message. Okay, so here we are in August and I'm looking at January, so that was really browsing. The point is, what she said really stood out to me. Live with full passion is what she wrote.
And I get that. Do what you do with feeling. Imbue your activities with drive and verve. This is, of course, sage advice. Far too often we sleepwalk through life, failing to grasp the magnificence that lays itself out before us at every step. So I get her point. But I also think it's a little more complicated than that. Passion, as the great Pablo Neruda said, is as if you were on fire from within.
And how could anyone argue against the merits of that? But it seems that perhaps passion unleashed without the tether of a good purpose can demolish rather than build. And it's here we need to explore more deeply, for a true human being must understand how to do what's really important, and that takes massive self-knowledge. Going beyond sex and passion, today, on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
I'm sure my friend had no intention of provoking anything more than a few likes on that Facebook comment. And before discovering the science of psychosociopathology that I base these shows on, I probably wouldn't have given her comment more than a passing glance either. But Dr. Norberto Keppe's scientific psychology and spirituality has caused me to open my eyes much wider to see things more completely.
And that has meant dissecting many common everyday philosophies of life to discover if there's anything really to them. That's valuable reflection, but it takes a comprehensive perspective to accomplish that, which Keppe's Analytical Trilogy is. Check out more on our various sites.
And do, please, pass on our programs to other people.
Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco wrote Women on the Couch in the late 1980s, a study of female psychopathology, the toughest book she ever wrote, she told me once. But she had a lot of valuable stuff to say in there about sex and passion and relationships and purpose. So let's delve deeper. Going Beyond Sex and Passion When Thinking with Somebody Else's Head Returns on the Stop Radio Network.
Susan Berkley: Back in 1986, Norberto Keppe wrote a book that predicted the worldwide economic crisis we're facing today.
Liberation of the People critiques the pathology of power that lies at the base of our inverted social system and points the way out. This is essential reading for anyone wanting to find out how we got in such a mess. And how we can get out Liberation of the People available in print or downloadable versions now at healing through consciousness.com.
Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head with Richard Lloyd Jones and Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco on the Stop Radio Network. Our
Richard: program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
We are on the Stop Radio Network. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco has joined me again. Hello, Cláudia. Hello, Richard. Hello. Hey. You know, last week we were having a fascinating discussion. We had a room full of Americans. Do you remember? Bob Butler, who's here with us again today. Hello, Bob. Hello, Richard. Speaking to the microphone. Hello, Richard, and Dr. Cláudia. Hello. Susan Berkley was here, and David Padani-Guliasz from Hungary.
Yes, he's a Hungarian. Yes, we
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: were talking. And you were addressing, I think, the subject of the interior life,
Richard: what we call interiorization in Norberto Keppe's science. And this is something, I think, that's really fascinating to me. Yesterday, we were having a meeting here with a number of new teachers to our school. And um she's laney one of our she's in the lira one of our psychoanalysts was was speaking and helping the the teachers to understand our methodology of teaching languages.
And in the process of doing that she was talking about her experience of working with children in the school system and teachers as well where she where she does a lot of consulting. And uh she said the big thing that you have to help people to do i was talking with bob about this this morning is not to tell people what they should do, but try to show them the consequences of their actions for them.
What are the consequences of what they're doing for them? When you help people to see that, then people can change or can treat the problems that they have. Without that, it's just kind of finger-wagging. You should stop smoking. You should, you know, these kinds of moralizing that we do. And I wanted to, just before we get into our listener question, just to address that with you a bit today, the importance of really trying to help people to see that what we do has consequences.
Well,
Cláudia: anyhow, Richard, we are a group of scientists researching, working to improve the quality of the mental and physical and social health. So we are totally therapeutic. So we are focusing on disease or on pathology in order to give room to a better life. So we treat pathologies, could they be social, could they be physical, could they be spiritual, mental, whatever, emotional, but in order to help
Richard: people.
So, of course, we
Cláudia: are not here with a religious intention, as you said, to condemn, to judge. We are not judges. We are not social workers. We are not here to adapt people inside society, no matter what society they have to adapt to. We are not here to teach them how to behave in front of powerful people in order to obey the laws.
We are not here to do that. We are here to help people to treat their problems and have a better health.
Richard: So it was interesting in this context, because the new teachers who are coming into our methodology, they are seeing that students who come to classes have many, many problems. And the traditional way of treating these kinds of problems is kind of, excuse me for saying this, is like a North American focus.
We sort of say, if somebody has a fear of public speaking, we say, oh, just relax, just be yourself, you know. And this doesn't help the person because there are deeper problems that need to be addressed. So as we were helping these new teachers to see that...
Cláudia: And we start even from a very idealized point of view. Yeah, that's true. That people who are like aged already or are beyond 18 or 20, when your brain is capable to learn a little bit faster a language, but after that it's so difficult.
For anyone to learn a new language. So we start from a totally inverted, upside-down, idealized, social-oriented or economic, even worse, oriented idea that you have, you must learn a new language because you must work for these companies that need you speaking another language to bring them profits. So it's something that they want to fit you inside this socioeconomic system. And people in general, they cannot learn languages like this after a long time.
Richard: You're looking at me with a smile on your face because I started to learn a language at 45.
Cláudia: You see how difficult it is? Sometimes it is impossible for a person to learn a new language. So this is a totally idealized question. So they start from a wrong point of view, a pathological and immoral point of view. So they want to teach you a language in order to profit from you and exploit you.
Richard: And they start writing articles and scientific treaties between quotes or educational pedagogical treaties between quotes and neurological studies between quotes because they want you to learn a language to bring them profits. Yes. So it's all upside down. It's all upside down. They do the same thing with change, Cláudia. They create this incredible world where everything is changing and adapting. And then they say, you, the employee, you, the person, you need to adapt to change.
You know, Who Moved My Cheese, this famous book that was written. It's all about that. The cheese has moved. Things are not the way they used to be. As they were before, so now you need to adapt to that.
Cláudia: Yes, and if you don't, you're out. Yeah. You're
Richard: out. Really cruel, isn't it?
Cláudia: This is total cruelty. Yeah. This is total cruelty. So, I understand that the work you do in this Millennium Schools, and also with your online courses and all that, it's to bring a little bit of humanity, of relief, of well-being, and stress-dissolving kind of technique so people can say, oh, I'm not that wrong, I'm not that out of reality.
So I have reasons to accept myself and my difficulties because they're not that difficulties or I'm not so blocked as I thought. The problem is not my obstacles or my blocking. Yes. It's more the pathology in society. Yeah. Why? Why so many languages? So, you have to learn Chinese, and then you have to learn German, and then you have to learn Portuguese, and Spanish, and French, and Italian, and later on, the world is global, and then you have to learn all the languages.
So, what is this? So, okay, so they say, no, you don't have to learn all the languages, but you have to learn English, which is an international language. But you have to use English for professional purposes. And when you have to use a language for professional purposes only, you never learn that language. Because a language is an expression of the being, and not of an economic system.
Richard: Yeah, exactly. And by the way, I'm never going to be able to learn Chinese and German. But I've stopped at Portuguese. So
Cláudia: that's why this is a true Babylonic thing to resolve. This is really difficult. So let's at least give a little bit of support and consolation for those who don't learn languages.
Richard: And also the people who are trying to learn, who have a lot of stress and a lot of trauma.
And I see this all the time. And, Bob, I know you see this, too. The young students, particularly young women who come to our classes, they're terrorized by having to learn this obligation to learn this language of English, which is kind of a schizophrenic language. I mean, as you start to study other languages, you realize English has really got some crazy things about it.
So anyway, we try to help the students to be relieved. You know, it's not life and death, guys. If you make a little mistake here, you're not going to die. And the teacher's not going to wrap your knuckles like that piano teacher.
Cláudia: At least here they can be themselves.
Richard: At least here they can be themselves and have fun. And have fun. So, Cláudia, we received a comment, a question and a comment from a young woman interested in in comments in a radio program we we did some time ago on love and relationships.
She said she found it very enlightening and was wondering if we could expand on a few of the ideas that we put out there. And i find this with our programs actually there's like a million ideas in in one program it's very they're very dense and very deep so it would be nice for us to explore a little bit more. She says here that Dr.
Pacheco made numerous comments about love and the joy we derive from expressing it. She mentioned that we don't love someone else for what they give to us, but how we feel for them. She also made some interesting remarks about how we love others, regardless of how they treat us. And in another program, she made mention that we often invite an undesirable into our lives in order to fulfill an unconscious need we have to destroy or harm ourselves.
So there's three different ideas she's touching on that she perceived from your program on this a number, maybe a couple of years ago.
Cláudia: Read the three of them, or the two of them, or the three of them first, and then we go back and we will...
Richard: You want the two questions? Yes, yes. She
Cláudia: made two questions and I think
Richard: a third one.
Okay. My question is this.
Cláudia: If someone finds himself or herself in relationship
Richard: with someone who's not being respectful, one, does Dr. Pacheco encourage the person to continue expressing love? She did say that you love someone regardless of what they give to you, that you love and express it because it feels good and brings you joy. So she's making the comment that do we continue to love and give our love to someone who doesn't show us respect?
That seems to be the issue that she's raising here. And how would you go to
Cláudia: the second one
Richard: the second one all right second question what does it really say about the individual if he or she loves someone who's disrespectful. Does it say he she has an unconscious wish to disrespect him or herself. Does it say that the unconscious mind believes that the individual is not worthy of respect and so loving this person is a way in which to fulfill that need?
Do we love despite the fact we're not being treated well, or do we love because of that fact? Wow, there's a lot being said there.
Cláudia: It's deep, isn't it? Yes. This person, so she brought very interesting questions, and that involves many areas. I would start from the second, because she gives the answer herself. Yeah, sure.
Richard: What does it really say about the individual if he or she loves someone who's disrespectful.
Does it say that he or she has an unconscious wish to respect him or herself
Cláudia: to disrespect
Richard: disrespect him or herself thank you my inversion. Does it say that the unconscious mind believes that the individual is not worthy of respect and so loving this person is a way in which to fulfill that need of not being
Cláudia: worthy. She gave the answer in her two questions here.
Yes. This says that the person, he or she, has an unconscious wish to disrespect the self.
Richard: Him or herself.
Cláudia: Yes. Mostly. Yeah.
Richard: So what she suggested, and you're confirming, is that we attract these people who disrespect us because our desire is to disrespect ourselves.
Cláudia: Yeah. And disrespect the self and beings and life. And she says, does it say that the unconscious mind believes that the individual is not worthy of respect?
Sometimes it can be this, feelings of guilt, not respecting because she or he is perceiving that she does not deserve respect for some reason. So this should be worked more in depth, right? But there is a component here that could be the case in her situation or in one's situation.
Richard: Let me go a little deeper than that in a minute, Cláudia, but I should take a break.
It's incredible how much time flies, and I don't want you to start on an idea that we have to break, so let me take the break a little bit early. We are on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop radio network. Very pleased to be here and looking very deeply now at relationships and love because questions this young woman has raised for us are, I feel, very deep and need some more exploration.
So I don't want to interrupt Cláudia's thoughts. So we'll come back in just a moment to consider that.
Richard: This is Richard Lloyd Jones. It's a globalized world today. Publish something on virtually any social network and it could go viral in minutes.
This makes it very exciting for our stop radio network, of course, because now we're not limited to 50,000 watts in terrestrial radio coverage. Our programs are heard in more than 100 countries. If you're looking to reach customers, suppliers, even new employees more effectively, you need that global presence, too. That means globalization services like internationalization, localization, interpretation, translation, cultural consulting, and multilingual development.
All of that is what we do at Millennium Translations. We're a worldwide distributor of translation and localization services, and we work in a huge variety of languages. We're also part of the Millennium Group of Trilogical Enterprises. So check us out on the web, etranslate.com.br. Millennium Translations, we help you operate more effectively around the world.
Norberto Keppe, and there are many exciting applications of his work occurring in Brazil and numerous other locations around the world. This includes language classes, translation services, psychology sessions by phone or Skype, and the new energy solutions proposed by the Keppe Motor.
Now back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. Thinking
Richard: with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. And Cláudia, let me just try to, because, you know, when we explore the psychological life, do we have, you know, these kinds of things, is it an unconscious wish to love, an unconscious desire to not want to respect? These kinds of things are very confusing for our North American minds.
I think our level of abstraction in North America is gone completely. We have to have, like, it's spelled out.
Cláudia: It's not only North America. I guess not. It's all over. Maybe when
Richard: Jesus Christ came, he spoke about this because he noticed that the level of understanding about love was... Yeah. So he talked in parables and simple ways for us to try to grasp, because it's deep
Cláudia: here.
So first of all, Richard, so let's try to touch an area that might include the answer for the first and the last question. One thing is that we must distinguish between love and passion. Love and narcissism. Love and egotism. So love must always be together with reason. It must be rational in terms that if you question that love, it must prevail. I mean, it must be solid.
So if you question love with your reason and if it's okay the answer so it's love it's pure true love because love requires always the the need to do good for the other one to be good beautiful and truthful. So love doesn't mean to pact with the other with the beloved. So if you pact if you are not truthful if you're not performing an ethical behavior with that person it's not love.
Love requires truth and love requires beauty. And by pact you mean, uh,
Richard: I'm not going to tell you about your problems and you don't tell me about my problems, and that's why I love you, this kind of, or if
Cláudia: you are disrespectful with me I'll take in, I'll accept because I love you. This is not love, this is packed, yeah. So sometimes people use others to disrespect life to bring their level of life down to a lower level so there's
Richard: not sometimes this is very often
Cláudia: very often.
So people take in uh disrespectful behaviors from the other one which are really not to be taken and so. So I don't mean that people should fight back. This is not the way we deal with things, fighting back. I don't mean that people should respond or to respostar, we say in Portuguese, to give
Richard: it
Cláudia: back, to vindicate. Yeah, to give
Richard: it back, give as good
Cláudia: as I get.
So this is not the way we behave when we feel love or when we are loving. So, in reality, to love requires a degree of virtue, of honesty, of good intention, of this sense of sacrifice. Because living a life out of our passions or our desires, our needs, it's not an ethical or truthful life. And this means that we need a big amount of sacrifice to be always for the good and for the best, for me and for the other ones.
Richard: Which can sometimes be going against my passions.
Cláudia: For sure, always, always. We are having always passion. So there is not such a thing as pure love amongst human beings in this planet. So there is always passion around, there is always envy, there is always jealousy, there is always narcissism, there is always egotism. So we have to filter what is love in this relationship, what is pathology.
So if I allow too much disrespect, too much aggression, this is not love. So some women will say, okay, so you'll not take in the loyalty or the betrayal of my beloved. So this kind of thing is, then we jump to another huge area of discussion, which is jealousy. But let's stay in this area of being mistreated, being disrespected in terms of being mistreated.
So if I get along with a person and then I start the relationship and then I take in the first and the second and the third, the other one will, like, gain terrain and more and more and more to be more and more disrespectful to an extent that this is not recuperable. It's impossible to recuperate. Sometimes you have to give in, sometimes give up and say, okay, so I cannot continue.
But sometimes people are too dependent on the other one, so they have to do a serious treatment, a serious deep treatment of analysis in order to get better and to be able to get back his independence, his inner balance and focus. Because if one is innerly balanced and focused, if we have this vortex established with upper levels, like with God, you may call him God, or you may call it truth, you may call it ideals, you may call it the goodness of, like, in itself, beauty, truth, that are true values.
Richard: Some form of purpose in some way.
Cláudia: So if you're not in tune with this higher purpose in life, then it will be difficult to establish a respectful relationship.
Richard: Yes, yes. And many relationships burn out because they don't have this higher purpose. The relationship doesn't have
Cláudia: a higher purpose. Exactly. Exactly. So if one gets along with another person, and both of us form a triangle between man, woman, or man, man, or woman, woman, whatever the relationship is, so if we don't get together in order to establish a relationship which is based in higher purposes, and you may form this triangle directly with God even better, but if you don't with a higher purpose in life, being idealistic in one area, having a higher purpose in a work or, you know, something higher.
So there must be this triangle because if it's horizontal, energetically it will not work. It will be vampirism because then you do not take energy from a higher vibrational level but you want the energy coming from the other one and then this is vampirism. You know
Richard: what's interesting? I want to just try to use, like I often do, a personal story to illustrate what you're talking about, because it just hit me as you were speaking.
I have a friend, woman friend, in New York. We were lovers. And we had this intense, passionate experience. But it ended when I came to Brazil, obviously, because I had a higher purpose. And recently I was in contact with her because she's a very good publicist, very, very good. And I was thinking, in my stupidity maybe, that, you know where I'm going with this, that the work we are doing here is so important for the world.
And I thought, here's something that she and I could work together on outside just the horizontal relationship, that she could catch the fire of what we're doing here and help a lot of people, including herself, with this incredible work that's being done here. But, of course, no, she's not interested in that because she's stuck in this, you hurt me, I hurt you, this thing, you know.
It took me a long time to heal and all of this kind of stuff. And not seeing the higher...
Cláudia: Because then it comes your idealization.
Richard: Ah, of course, of course, yes.
Cláudia: Because you projected onto her a lot of your virtues. When you had this passionate relationship, most of the qualities you saw in her probably were not hers. Yeah. Because otherwise she would have a more virtuous background.
And when you would bring her a chance to go upper in this energetic scale, She would immediately take it and enjoy it and take advantage from a chance to go up her.
Richard: And our relationship could be much better in a real relationship. It could be beautiful. Much
Cláudia: better. Every time we meet a person and then we admire that person, could it be projection or not?
Sometimes it's an idealization, but sometimes it doesn't. So if you have a nice friendship, and if you bring in sensorial things, the friendship will tend to deteriorate. And if you preserve the virtue of the relationship and the love and sacrifice sensorial desires, then this friendship will tend to grow and go upper and upper.
Richard: That's very beautiful. Yeah,
Cláudia: especially because when you must touch sensitive areas like mistakes and pathologies, we must always bring to a friend some ideas that they will not.
Like feel pleasant. All right? So we have all, all of us have mistakes. So if we need to bring this to a person that is involved in sensorial and pleasurable activities, they would tend to not take in. Not take in. It's it's you know something i feel that sometimes uh having sensorial um attachments with a person is disrespecting that person now a kind of envy not
Richard: to say that sex is something no not at
Cláudia: all of course.
But
Richard: this, this idea that we want to, um, you, you talked about it one time, you talked about how we
Cláudia: want to somatize love into something physical, sensorial, because that we can sort of handle or control a little bit, and so we leave the realm of these more, these more elevated feelings of love and deep respect, profundity, we leave those realms to enter a lower sort of level of experience together.
It's not that it's a mistake, but it's less energetic. It's sensorial. So we are here on this planet to procreate. But a day will come when we will not need any bodies to procreate. We will be like angels, like you mean, I mean, what Jesus said. We will be like angels. So we will not need food or sex or procreation we will have just love and all love that's going to be a
Richard: sacrifice for a lot of people
Cláudia: that's purgatory comes in
Richard: the area into the discussion.
So
Cláudia: we have so many areas to touch, right, but if you, and when we speak about spiritual love we have the tendency to relate to connect to what we heard before, and then we go to this religious people which are not really speaking anything about love, by the way, in general religious people, priests, nuns, they are taught not to have any friendships and like not to get too close to a person.
They, they have sexual relationships, they can have sexual intercourses many times, and they do have sometimes even pedophilic because they, they turn to be sick, they are so much repressed in their feelings and emotions that they turn to be sick, they, they become even like, you know, all, all sexual disturbances come, come here, because start in, because they reject or they think to feel love is a mistake.
So religious people are not really the right people to speak about love, and so we are in a situation in this planet that when we speak something we are misunderstood a lot of times, people don't understand what we mean because they have preconceptions, preconceived
Richard: ideas, yeah. I can feel as you're speaking too that what you're talking about is so deep, it takes some listening, we'll have to listen to this radio program many times I think to grasp the profundity of what you're talking about, because you know when you talk about giving up, giving up, sacrificing in food and sex, so these are things people, you can feel people panicking, oh my god I have to give up, but you're not really, no, I don't mean that, yeah,
Cláudia: of course I mean that, sex and food and all the sensorial life things, they, they are just, uh, consequences if, or they are good, but we have much better things than this, we are not enjoying, sure.
Richard: And i remember dr kept me saying one time if you want to have a better life including a better sex life you have to dedicate yourself to helping humanity that will even improve your sex life because you have a higher
Cláudia: yes yeah. So the more um subtle the more quality you have in your in your feelings of love the better will be the sex you will perform with your beloved one.
For sure, because sex is a consequence, it's a manifestation, and it's totally secondary. It's totally secondary. So we are speaking about like a scale of vibrations, and the being is like even more than 70%, maybe 90% not material. So 90% of our enjoyment, it's not fulfilled if we stay just in the sensorial level. This is what we mean when we forget, we take away, eliminate the spiritual aspect to stay just in a more animal aspect.
Richard: It brings a lot of meaning to the expression, the guy's an animal, doesn't it? Or the woman, for that matter.
Our program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, and it's always a pleasure to be with you exploring these themes of Analytical Trilogy Dr.
Norberto Keppe's Science of Psycho-Sociopathology we return again next time to explore more with you I hope this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head I'm Richard Lloyd Jones Until next time.
