Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. A word of warning right at the beginning of our program today. Our subject is a delicate one today. In a world where speech is often paralyzed, not by an Orwellian big brother poised to punish us for deviations from the acceptable, but by our own individual and collective decisions as to what's correct or not.
Spraying from the correct speak causes raised eyebrows and pursed lips at best and outright shunning at worst. It's a politically correct world in the West, and the language has been sculpted and massaged and homogenized to remove any unwanted judgments or value statements in a total conviction that this is progress. Politically incorrect is simply not tolerated, a throwback to a time most consider downright evil.
But there's a problem underneath all this.
Unfortunately, not being able to say anything critical about anyone means real defects and problems don't get pointed out anymore. And all that walking on eggshells means we can't really develop. The problem appears particularly formidable when we want to talk about women's pathology. Big sisters watching today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Well, it's great to be back. We haven't posted a program for a long time.
The TuneIn Radio app brings all that to your smartphone for free, by the way. And a special thank you goes out to our good friend Will Lajeunesse for keeping our stop radio station vibrant, relevant, and maybe most importantly, on the air.
He programs from our many hours of programming, so we always have a voice. You know, when psychoanalyst Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco published her analysis of women's pathology, Women on the Couch, in 1987, she braced herself for a backlash. And by daring to take off the gloves and write about the levels of instability and hostility even that she was witnessing in the world of women, she took some heat.
From women, of course, as expected, but from men, too, perhaps more surprisingly. These men who rose ferociously to defend their perfect mothers and lovers, who pampered and spoiled them and made them princes and kings, who wouldn't allow this game to be up. No, sir. These men were often far less willing than many women to accept what Dr. Pershaka was attempting to do, which was, as I understand it, to shed some light on the dysfunctional attitudes and behaviors of women in an attempt to bring more sanity to the women and their relationships.
In Dr. Keppe's psychoanalysis, it's only by seeing the problem that we can really move beyond it and evolve. You know, I'm not sure this subject will receive a better hearing even today. It's still a pretty tender topic, but let's try with a lot of respect. Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco and women's pathology. Big Sister is watching. When Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns in just a moment on the stop radio network
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want others to be the way they idealize them nerberto Keppe disinverting the human being and society this is the stop radio network
Richard: this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head Richard boyd jones here and uh it's a special day Because Cláudia Barron-Harper-Shake was with us again.
It has been some time since we've sat to record. And our topic today, it's been even longer since you wrote the book. We're going to work with women on the couch today. You've said in the introduction to this, well, hello, welcome, by the way.
"Hello, Richard.
Richard: I've even forgotten how to do introductions to radio program." Your book is an attempt to focus on women's problems and difficulties in relation to herself, men, family, and society, and even the Creator.
And you said in your foreword to this book that a study of the psychopathology of women was the most difficult undertaking you'd ever attempted. "Yes." "Why?" "Oh,
Cláudia: for so many reasons, but I'll try to quote a few. First, I'm a woman, so in order to understand more in depth the psychopathology of women, I must be almost 100% honest. I don't say 100% because I will not be that megalomaniac."
Richard: To think that you could be 100% accurate, yes.
Cláudia: But, you know, it's something that requires such an honest examination, inner examination, to be able to focus and be facing the truth about women. And mostly what is hidden under the water, as the iceberg that Freud mentioned, what is already pushed behind our conscience and our consciousness. Things that we learn to feel and to live, but without admitting that is a problem.
Sometimes even without acknowledging. This is one thing. Another thing is that women normally have been seen, and especially in the last century, all the movements were to liberate women and seeing women as the weak part in the relationships.
Richard: The weaker sex, right? Yes. Which is a crazy
Cláudia: sort of denomination. Sex and victims and so fragile, they need more protection than any other thing and they should be more liberated to express their desires and their feelings and their inputs and the way they see life.
So there is more. It's like politically incorrect to speak anything against women presently. So, this is what I feel. So, our pathology is totally at stake. Like, at stake? No.
Richard: Solta. Ah, loose. Loose. Free. Running wild.
Cláudia: Running wild. Exactly.
Richard: Because in Dr. Keppe's science, it's seeing the problem that brings us the ability to control it a little bit. So, what you're suggesting is if we don't see, if women don't see their problem, then it… "Yes.
Cláudia: Free to operate with
no restrictions."
Cláudia: "Yes." And what is this? You said a couple of things I want
Richard: to focus on, which is the truth about women. What is the sort of principle truth about women you've discovered in your work with women that we don't know and we should know?
Cláudia: "Well, many people know that women have many problems. They are jealous. They are envious.
They are narcissistic."
Richard: But men
Cláudia: can be those things too, right? Men can be those things too. But we express these things in different manners. You know, we are different, Richard. It took a long time for me to admit we are really different. Men and women are really different.
Richard: Well, I can tell you all the men listening here are sort of on their knees saying, please, Cláudia, help us to understand how women think, what
Cláudia: women are like, because I don't think we really understand that at all.
We are different from man, and this is something that should be complementary. It should be something like a motor. Now, presently, they have this commutation. It's action and counteraction, action, counteraction. So they don't cooperate. This is the biggest part of the story. If man say... Something women will say no or will put an obstacle or put an energy against, a defensive energy.
And the other way around is we could say this is many times the same case as men. If we open our mouths, then men will say immediately shut up or you are speaking nuts. So this misunderstanding between men and women is so sad. Because Keppe's model of matter or the atom, if we could name it, it's the neutron and the proton and neutron.
The proton and neutron are the result, the proton and electron are the result of neutron. So there are three aspects. If we would compare this model with men and women and our relationship, we could name the neutron as God, as the essential energy, as the life principle.
Richard: Center point, right.
Cláudia: Center point that feed our beings, men and women. But if we would be like united, like for instance, women would be the electron, men would be the proton, and God, the neutron.
Neutron giving energy to proton and electron.
Richard: And then the proton and electron, men and women, would be orienting to a common source and with a common goal. Yes. In some way.
Cláudia: And this does not happen. No, it doesn't. So what happens is that neutron was taken away. The essential energy, the Holy Spirit, if you can name it, or the divine. The spiritual base of our lives. Was taken away.
Richard: Stripped away. So. Deliberately.
Cláudia: Men and women, they behave like free radicals, looking and needing like small vampires needing a source of energy. And they don't take this from God anymore. They take from other things, secondary things.
Richard: Or from each other.
Cláudia: From each other. And so this vampirism is present in our everyday society. And so presently I see that neither men understand women nor women understand men because we are too different and we want things like we go opposite directions most of the time.
We don't have a common goal.
Richard: Because in your explanation now we've lost this central
Cláudia: consolidating part. This is a typically spiritual problem.
Richard: Yeah, this is a very deep spiritual problem.
Cláudia: Deep spiritual problem. Yeah, yeah. We don't resonate anymore in the same level of vibration. We have different scales of vibration. Women are more in the fields of intuition, emotion, feelings, and men are more in the field of intellect and reason and social action, right?
So, we should get together and resonate as it happens. It should happen in the brain. And our brain doesn't work like this any longer. So, our right side and the left side of the brain are not together in resonance.
Richard: So, if we have men more oriented to reason, philosophy, I guess, and women more to emotion, love, beauty. But the
Cláudia: pity is this happened until up to the middle of the 20th century, I suppose, or the beginning, when women started to teach their children, the boys, to be and to behave more like women.
In the sense that women mistakenly thought that men were too primitive, too aggressive, too primitive,
Richard: too stupid
Cláudia: sometimes, that would not understand them. That a woman can understand another woman, but a man never understands a woman. But we don't think that we don't understand men either. And our boys, we teach them to be like girls And we deform our boys And
Richard: how are boys being taught to be like girls?
In the sense of, we hear all the time you need to show your emotions. You need to
Cláudia: talk about the problem. Don't be aggressive, don't be this, don't be that. But some sort of impulse, like a proton has, the men must have, and even to defend his woman and his family and the planet. So what we see presently, and I'm not a rightist.
I'm not in the right side or I'm not, you know, against. These are that source of political thought.
No, I'm speaking out of science. And what we see is that men become like a hybrid. Hybrid. Hybrid. They cannot be what they are and they cannot become women either because I'm not speaking about sexual things because sexual things, it's a result, it's a consequence from a psychological confusion that boys get when they are taught to be more like women. Because they stay at home, they have their sisters and their mothers and their aunts and their grandmothers because they stay more at home and they deal more with children in schools are more frequently directed or taught by women, teachers that are women.
So what we see is that women want men to behave more like they are, and this is creating an imbalance in society. I'm not saying that we should go back to the previous model. I'm saying we should go forward.
Richard: Yeah, we have to evolve, progress to some level, because we're seeing this now. There's some recent research in England showing that boys are seriously underachieving at school, especially white working class boys, interestingly enough. In every area, boys are struggling much more than girls. Girls are developing leaps and bounds in every area, in politics, in economics, in business, in family, in every area.
Freedoms, rights, all of those things, even in pay now. There's some reports I saw today that young women, 18 to 28, I think, are beginning to overcome boys in terms of salary even. So in every area, girls are developing and boys
Cláudia: are… So let me ask you something. Is society better now than before?
Richard: Well, in my opinion, not at all. So
Cláudia: are we doing better in economy, in politics, in all areas than before?
No, right?
Richard: No, I don't think so.
Cláudia: The statistics show this. And even women are now in a situation where they want to be as free as men, sexually speaking. And they have this big problem now of abortion. Yeah. In Brazil, one out of five births are from, I don't know in English how to express this, one about five babies. One is a child of an adolescent.
Yeah.
Richard: Pre-teen, I think.
Cláudia: Teenage pregnancies. So this is a huge
Richard: socioeconomic problem. Very, very high here. This
Cláudia: is a huge emotional problem for women because they are not ready to be mothers. They have their lives spoiled. And if they abort the baby, those are those who did not abort. But those who do abort babies, they are even more harmed because a woman that performs, like abort.
Richard: Yeah, has an abortion.
Cláudia: Has an abortion. A woman that has an abortion, she will never, ever be able to be in peace again because the nature of women is a nature of motherhood, of loving their children.
It's a loving nature. Nature, I'm speaking about nature, about essence. Yeah. So, women, since they are very small, they take those dolls and they cherish the dolls as if they were true babies. So, this is part of our nature. It's instinctive. It's psychologically oriented for that. Even lesbians are very fond of their adopted children. So to kill a son or like a child, it's always a trauma, even if they don't.
Perceive at the moment. They will feel it later.
Richard: And this, I think this is totally true. And I think this nurturing element that you're talking about is being stripped out in the school systems we see in Sweden now. This movement to let the child choose his or her sex and not to orient him towards any toy or more than others. Well, let's take a little break, Cláudia, and we'll be back in just a minute.
On Thinking with Somebody Else's Head,
thank you for listening to the most relevant conversations in the world about stopping the destruction of ourselves and the planet.
In a world where women have struggled to discover themselves and their true purpose, she started to
Cláudia: reject herself, her essence. She started to see in herself, in her femininity, something inferior.
Comes a book that frees them to be what they were destined to be. A woman is a link between man and God because of the intuitive and spiritual
aspect and the feeling. Cláudia Pacheco's Women on the Couch, an incisive analysis of women's psychology that lays out what's gone wrong. We have this big inversion
Cláudia: inside of ourselves that lead us to think that being a woman is not good.
It's inferior. We don't want to serve.
We don't want to be submissive to God, to beauty, to truth, to goodness. And how women can get back on track. But I understand that the only way for us to free ourselves is
to serve, to be useful, and to grow. Cláudia Pacheco's Women on the Couch, An Analysis of Female Psychopathology.
Hi, my name is Thorne, and I love listening to the Stop Radio Network.
It helps me to start off my day in a really good mode.
Richard: The most relevant conversations in the world today are on the Stop Radio Network. We're back, thank you, with somebody else's head on the Stop Radio Network, which has been a while since we've done a program. And I think both Cláudia and I are feeling we're stretching our muscles again. Cláudia was just complaining about her English, which I think is marvelous.
I was complaining that I sometimes don't know even how to frame questions. So this is what happens when you don't do this for a while. It's a discipline like anything, you know. "I
Cláudia: get so, like, uncomfortable when we have to speak about things like this, abortion, homosexuality. It's very, it's so delicate." "Yeah,
Richard: um, because this is politically incorrect to deal with those things as problems.
Yeah,
Cláudia: and but they are problems and people who have these problems they feel the problems. And this problem doesn't come from outside as they think and as psychologists claim or politicians claim. It's not society that is censoring the problem. Societies could even do this, okay, but the worst part come from within." "You said
Richard: in a radio program that many times women see in men their own oppression, aggression,
lack
Cláudia: of respect, not being taken seriously, that this is what they do to themselves that they blame men for."
And men may do that as well, of course. Yes, yes. But we cannot take away the social and the external problems like other people. But the main and the nucleus of everything comes from within. And in this sense, Keppe is really, really Socratic, Christian, Kepian, of course. In his dialectics, because Socrates already was sentenced to death because he brought this concept, the true problems of society.
They come from the arrogance of individuals, the corruption. So, people are so arrogant, so outside their minds, that they think they know everything. They are the owners of the truth. And they are not. So his principle was, first, know thyself. If you want to know anything, knowledge comes from knowing ourselves.
Richard: And he went around the city conducting dialogues with people that eventually would lead the person to realize how their actions were inconsistent with their philosophy or their philosophy was inconsistent with their actions.
There was some, it's like you can almost see it like a huge waking up moment And the person going after all these questions from Socrates going, oh, my God, I've been thinking something completely wrong for my whole life.
Cláudia: So wisdom is based on the knowledge that we know nothing, that we know so little or sometimes even nothing. So this is the only thing we can know about ourselves.
We know so little and we are like so pretentious owners of the truth. And this creates an enormous conflict. So at that time, the powerful in society considered Socrates as a corrupt source. Corruptor of
Richard: the youth.
Yeah, yeah. So he
Cláudia: would come and say, look, you don't know what you think you know. And this was considered a corruption for society. Cicuta was the poison they made him take.
Richard: Hemlock. Hemlock was it? Hmm? Was it Hemlock?
I don't remember the poison they made him take. Cicuta. I don't even know what that is in English. Cicuta.
Cláudia: I thought it was Hemlock, but okay. Whatever it was. Cicuta in Portuguese. Some poison that he, yeah. Jesus was the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Jesus Christ. And he came in, he showed the mask the hypocrisy, the pretentiousness, the arrogance, and... Some
Richard: people didn't like that very much, did they?
Yeah.
Cláudia: So he stepped on their... Toes. Toes. The result was the same as Socrates, condemned to death. Yeah. So here we are, struggling to survive with the science and showing that in psychological science, the principles are the same. Are the same. And when we speak about men and women, they are the owners of the truth in each side. So both of them are very mistaken.
And lately, women have more adopted this attitude with the support of politicians and laws and philosophers.
And
Richard: the legal system. So
Cláudia: this made women even more crazy because they became too arrogant, too apart from their true problems, inner problems. So my my perception is the way things were should not stay the way they were. Because women were so outside, so alienated from everything, and a big part of the problem was themselves. They did not take responsibility from anything.
They just wanted to stay at home playing with the children, speaking bad about their husbands and complaining about life. And so this and spending money, totally outside the notion of the need of their cooperation. So
Richard: this wasn't, in your view, an external imposition. It was that
Cláudia: too, obviously. A combination, because when they decided to get rid of that, they did. They are doing.
But they are doing for a wrong intention. So this is a pity because we see very little, very few women taking responsibility for what they do and for their lives.
And most of the damage are done to their children, and they are creating men like hybrids. They are not men anymore. They are not women. So sometimes they become homosexuals and women become like lesbians because this is not a sexual problem. This comes from the mind, this competition, this rivalry between men and women, the envy between them, and mostly lately feed by women.
Richard: Are you suggesting that women are oppressing the masculinity of boys?
Cláudia: Yes, I'm stating this because I see clients. I see the way they deal with their children. So it's not a matter of letting children and boys destroy things to prove their masculinity. Yeah, of course. But we must see that there is a drive in men different from women. Women are more prone to inner lives, like emotions, feelings, intuition, spirituality.
And men have a difference.
So why don't we accept? To men, many times. I see women saying, I don't like my husband, or I don't like this, I don't like his behavior, I don't like blah, blah, blah. So, women understand women better than men. So, only we can understand ourselves. The same things men say about women. So, being different in the way we were created, we were developed, our instincts, our hormones, everything, it's different, our bodies are different, and the purpose for ourselves is different.
The problem is that being different, we do not accept. So we speak so much about accepting differences and like uh yeah we don't really. Can
Richard: I, can I use an example? It comes up in the classroom, it might just help us to put a finger on this, like in a more concrete way. A number of my women students say they absolutely hate it when their boyfriends or husbands watch football games on Sunday.
It irritates them and I say so what's irritating about that. And they say, "well, because he's wasting his time, then he should be doing something more important." And I think there's another factor there that I feel if a woman says that to me, "why do you spend all your time watching the baseball game?" For me, it's baseball, right? Baseball game, right? This would be envy, right?
"Well, I think it's because
Cláudia: I'm happy doing that somehow." "Yes, yes." And women hate seeing men so happy because men many times are like adolescent people.
Richard: Simple. Simple, adolescent.
Cláudia: They're not very complicated. They want
to be
Richard: happy.
Cláudia: And women don't want to be happy. They want to live a drama. So they are dramatic. Yeah. So, sometimes Freud said, women do not accept men.
That's why they do not accept their fathers, their husbands, and they are even envious at the penis of man.
I would not say that. He didn't understand exactly the envy of women because he was not a woman. So he thought we would appreciate what he liked the most in himself, right? To
Richard: put it bluntly, he was pretty proud.
Cláudia: Yes, and he projected onto women this thing with the penis.
But women really do not envy penis of men.
Cláudia: I can say that not only from myself, but I'm a psychologist, I'm a psychoanalyst.
I see women do not really envy the peonies. They envy other things like the freedom to be happy that men want to have and have. So this enjoyment of life that women cannot have. They do not allow themselves to enjoy life. And they think that if they want to be happy, they should be free to do whatever men do in the wrong way of things.
Richard: Do all
Cláudia: the wrong things that men do. Yes. So they try to imitate what is wrong in man.
And we see this happening in big corporations. Like women, when they direct men, they can be even nastier, more arrogant, more titanic than a man.
Richard: You saw the Michael Moore documentary where he went to Iceland. "Yes, I did. Some part of it." "Yeah, he went to Iceland
Cláudia: and his documentary, Where Should We Invade Next? He goes
Richard: to many countries to steal their best ideas and he went to Iceland to steal their idea of the superiority of women.
When women don't work, nothing works, as they said there. And they actually had an example. When all the banks were crashing, one of the only banks that survived was a bank run by women. So there's this big idea that women think about what's good for the whole. Men think only about themselves. If the world could be saved, it'll be women who do that.
Women are looking for peace."
They want to save humanity. There's a lot of this kind of mentality around that I think is, I think in some cases, there's probably those elements that are true. But there must be something going on in women that they don't want to see, which is why you've got such a reaction to your book.
Cláudia: Yes. So, I don't know about Iceland society that much.
I don't know to be able to give my, like, a more serious opinion on this. But what I see is that, of course, a society without women would never work. Of course. As without men. So, neither one nor the other. Yeah. So both of them should be complementary. One complement, the other one cooperate. So where this can be done or where this could be done, then we would see a true society flourishing.
Because if we analyze the situation in Iceland, I guess it's too recent to evaluate the damage of putting men aside of decisions in society.
But I guess they are not putting really men outside,
Richard: right? There is a balance. Yeah, there's a big balance.
Cláudia: At least 40% of women need to be
Richard: on board of directors. It looks like it's a pretty reasonable
Cláudia: system,
actually, and they have a lot of women who are elected to government, and so
Cláudia: they have this sort
Richard: of mix of two things. The women probably feel that they are the reason that things are getting better.
Cláudia: Because, you see, women, they don't want to fight and do like a war, start a war, a physical war themselves, because they are afraid. But society or history shows that women were behind the scenes most of the time pushing men to go to war, not only to war, but war in families, war in enterprises. Women create a situation and then they come and they say, come on, you're not going to defend myself?
Or are you not masculine enough to take a move?
And they are most of the time in history, women are behind the man. And this is very, very unethical because women, they push, they cause intrigues, they create difficult situations. They are between the sheets and speaking
Richard: like
Cláudia: whispering on the ears of their men. And they can influence a lot. And they do influence a lot. But they don't take responsibility for nothing.
They don't take responsibility. So if they start a war, they would have to take responsibility and be courageous enough to do that. And they don't.
Richard: Let's try to do another program next week.
Cláudia: Let's try. Yeah.
Richard: It's a pleasure for me to be here. It's very, very great. This topic, you can feel as we wade into it, is so full of political correctness and things you can't say.
So I don't feel you're completely free to say some of the things you want
Cláudia: to say.
I feel that this is the restrictions. Things that I can say to my clients inside my group therapies. But something I must say is that men are beautiful because they are different. And the day women finish with their masculinity, the world will be so boring, so restrictive, and women will not be happier with that on the opposite. They will be much sadder.
Richard: Well, we feel, men feel that in their bones because women will criticize them for being like men, and when they're not being like men, the women
Cláudia: despise them. Yes, so it's...
Richard: Yeah, it's tough, this.
Cláudia: And just something, women, pay attention. If you do not accept a man because you do not understand him, you don't think the way they do think, you don't have the same reactions, please respect their differences and their reactions because their way of being, it's absolutely essential for our well-being.
Even if we are envious and do not want to admit, this is the truth.
Richard: Yeah, there's so much more to say about all this, isn't there? I certainly don't want to leave you with the impression that this kind of wraps it all up in a nice bow. Yeah, as with everything to do with human psychology, the truths lie deep. And digging them up doesn't always make total sense at first listen.
We'll try to dig in again a little bit more next week. That's our program for this time. Of the program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are on the Stop Radio Network and very pleased to have you along. We'll try and continue again next week.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Bye-bye for now.
Illness lies in our resistance to consciousness.
Norberto Keppe. Disinverting the human being and society.
