Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: A person who does not believe in God is already a proof of what we are speaking here. It's a total demonic action.
Now, the Stop Radio Network presents another episode in our continuing series on Therapeutic Theology with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco and Richard Lloyd Jones.
Richard Lloyd Jones: Cláudia, I had a very interesting question from one of my students when I was talking about Dr. Keppe's book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism.
She said, but Richard, how can you explain Dr. Keppe's concepts to someone who doesn't believe in God? And this may be something that's relevant for many people who are listening, who may be skeptical, cynical about this, maybe have a confused view of religion and God. Well,
Cláudia: I explained to
Richard: her that if somebody lives their life ethically, tries to be good, then they're living their life based on some belief, belief in something, belief in goodness.
So that could be actually more indicative of someone who believes in God than someone who says they believe in God, goes to church every day and is not honest or something. A
Cláudia: person who does not believe in God is already like a manifestation or a proof of what we are saying, we are speaking here. It's a total demonic action because it's impossible not to believe in God.
God is, we are in God. Creation is totally immersed in God's energy, is God's energy. The result of God's energy. So the presence of God in our lives is blatant. It's so obvious. Like notions of good and evil are so obvious that if a person says he denies the knowledge of the existence of God, it's not that he does not know about God, but he knows and denies it.
So this is a first or a very important manifestation of a possession or a kind of obsession in a human mind.
Richard: Yeah, you need a big effort to deny what
Cláudia: is so obvious. So it's not a matter of wanting to believe or not, but it's a matter of why some so-called atheists are denying the existence of God. And this is the basis of the psychoanalytical discoveries that Keppe brought when he started to build his own method and theory.
It's a manifestation of God in science. It's God's manifestation. So it's a
Richard: kind of revelation. A
Cláudia: revelation, yes. But when Keppe started to build his own theory and method, what did he discover? That the basis of all illnesses was what he called theomania. And at that time, he did not yet arrive to this scientific view on demonology. But he already saw through psychiatry, psychoanalysis, that the sickest person is so arrogant, so delirious in being the owner of the truth, the creator of his own reality.
That it was like beyond any reasonable idea or attitude. Self-confidence or something. It's way beyond that.
Richard: It's way
Cláudia: beyond this selfishness or self-confidence.
Richard: Yes, this overly self-confident, right?
Cláudia: Which is taking over humanity, mostly in the 20th century and on. This is a manifestation of mental sickness.
Richard: Dr. Keppe said recently that too much belief in yourself is a form of
Cláudia: possession. Lately he is speaking about that.
30 years ago, 40 years ago, he would
Richard: say believing too much in oneself or being too much self assured, it's a form of mental sickness, you know. And it is so. He does
Cláudia: not differ between mental sickness and possession. For him now it's the same, all the same, there is no difference. So, so speaking about demonology to people who do not believe in God, so this is an obstacle.
Because if they are denying the obvious, it's already a demonic attitude.
Richard: I've tried to understand what this is because I come from a country that I think has a lot of resistance to this idea of sort of an all-knowing, all-seeing God. And one of the arguments I found, somebody was arguing about why he didn't believe in God was, he said, I don't like being watched all the time. And I thought, he didn't say it in that way.
I'm making it kind of a joke. It was a sort of rational observation. But I thought, well, there it is. We don't want to be forced to do what's good. So if we want to not believe in God, it's because we want the freedom to do whatever we want.
Cláudia: But here,
Richard: Richard. It's ridiculous, isn't it?
Cláudia: Here, we have another aspect, another perspective.
And this is very beautiful when we work with integral psychoanalysis, Kapian analysis, because when a person comes with an idea like this, let's take these two examples. First, the first example, and then the second example. Remind me, please.
Richard: So the, I don't like...
Cláudia: How can I speak about the devil to people who don't accept God or are
Richard: atheists? These concepts to people who don't believe in God,
Cláudia: yes.
So let's start then talking. To this person, we would not talk through a dogmatic point of view or theoretical point of view. We would go from under induction, an induction method.
Richard: An inductive method.
Cláudia: Inductive method. So we would ask her, what do you associate God with? What do you think she would say?
Richard: She would say everything all-knowing, all-powerful, the right way.
Cláudia: A force.
Richard: A force, maybe, yes. Universe of force. You
Cláudia: might say a being or certainly a consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. So, you are saying that you do not believe in the force and the power and the reality of everything that is good, beautiful, and truthful. So, you deny the reality of goodness, beauty, and truth. Which is psychotic, too. Which is psychotic. So how can you live without believing in truth, goodness, and beauty?
You don't
Richard: live without
Cláudia: this belief, this faith. In everyday life, we need the faith to believe in practical good things, like breathing a good air, like drinking a good water, like walking to your office to work. This is something that you can trust or it's valid. It's a good in your life.
Richard: The piano's not going to fall out of the
Cláudia: sky. Yeah, so the sun will rise today and tomorrow and the day after, and it will go down, and the night will come, and I will sleep.
All this real, the reality, good, beautiful, and truthful, the divine creation, it's so obvious that we do not create anything. Human beings do not create anything. We just mimic god sometimes but we did not create. We don't have this power. So we go like like through another path. We go directly to the inner life of that subject or that individual. Yeah
Richard: yeah.
And
Cláudia: and therefore and what do you associate the devil with being as give spontaneous thoughts the person would never say total goodness beauty and truth. Of course what
Richard: a devil symbolizes. Yeah evil
Cláudia: suffering opposite of everything death pain suffering so torture you know
Richard: it's horrible things.
Cláudia: So denying the existence of the devil is denying the existence of these aspects in life and within us, too.
That we can be evil many times, and we are evil many
Richard: times. Yeah, I mean, nobody starts a relationship with the idea that the person is going to betray them or
Cláudia: tell a lie. Sure. You need to have
Richard: faith somehow.
Cláudia: Yeah,
Richard: to trust.
Cláudia: Trust is the basis of life. Yes. Trust in loyalty and justice. Justice. Loyalty.
Richard: That's a beautiful answer. And then the second.
No, the second. The second
Cláudia: one. I don't like somebody watching me all the time. He referred to it as a... A big watcher. A big watcher and that he's a dictator that you can never vote him out of power. Yes. So he's totally right. But the only thing is that he's inverted. He's seeing in God the devil and in the devil God.
So, who is the watcher? Who is commanding his life all the time? So, he is saying something that he feels uncomfortable. And it's true. But he allows this to happen all the time, blaming God. So, this is a very practical example of inversion. I think this is the biggest inversion of all. Seeing in God the devil's qualities. And in
the devil, God's qualities.
Cláudia: So
Richard: total freedom
and
Cláudia: well-being, you know, and God restrictive. Imagine God is totally like, it's not permissive because it's not the term, but he's totally condescendente.
Richard: Condescendente. Complacente. Contemplative. Complacent. Complacent. Yeah, complacent. It's mercy. He leaves us, like he let us to be totally free. He
just let us free. He never like interferes, like prohibiting us to
Cláudia: do anything. He let us even be evil.
He even allows us to be evil. It's in our disfavor. But he let us free. He wants all good to us. But if we want to
Richard: say no to him he will accept. But the devil, he doesn't. He
Cláudia: is a dictator. He is after you all the time watching you, ready to take you over accusing, blaming persecuting and all this watcher attitude that people see in God.
It's not God. It's
Richard: so great. You just explained it so well. It's lovely.
Cláudia: So in science, we need to have an inductive method using
the deductive theory.
