Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. In season one of HBO's The Newsroom, Jeff Daniels' character, Will McAvoy, launches into a wild tirade when prompted by a student's question at a college debate. The student asks the panelist to say in a sentence why America is the greatest country in the world, and McAvoy is off on a rant reminiscent of Howard Beale from the movie Network in the 70s.
And you'll be struck, if you're at all cognizant of what's going on, how right on McAvoy is. Okay, it's a TV show. But modern art, as Brazilian psychoanalyst and social scientist Norberto Keppe says, should be about denouncing social errors. This excerpt does that. But it's interesting to watch the reaction. Audience members are shocked. Fellow panel members horrified. But why are we so taken aback in North America when we see any problems in ourselves?
The world is in big trouble. This monster that has our first world-imposed economic social structure is making us sick. Let's take some steps to healing this. The power of cooperative living today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are, without a doubt, at a turning point in human history. It's like we've been traveling down a long one-way road for a few thousand years, only to find out after all this time it's been a dead end.
So we find ourselves in a situation where we need a wholesale modification in our approach to life, not just action plans to address the problems we see popping up all around us in every area. This must be a more holistic approach now, not the allopathic view adopted since modern science took us on its reductionist perspective that the pieces form the whole. That idea leads us to diagnose things partially, in small parts, and strips out the overview or universal vision of things.
So we operate in this or that little part of the complex ecosystem, completely oblivious to how that is affecting the part next door or down the street or in any other part of the world or the universe. And when the inevitable consequences appear over there, we slip on a band-aid or try to prop up what's falling down as if that problem out there had nothing to do with our actions over here.
This is such an important thing to consider. That our philosophy of life has been degraded by an inversion in metaphysics. Where in the distant past our philosophical forefathers, like Parmenides and Socrates and Plato, counseled us about universal things. That the greater gave birth to the lesser. That we needed to understand life through a consideration of whole things, not partial. Our modern scientists, based themselves on Aristotle, have begun to move away from that and see reality as the pieces coming together to form the whole.
It's a big inversion. In the classic Raphael painting, The School of Athens, both Plato and Aristotle are centrally figured. Plato, the teacher, is pointing to heaven, while Aristotle, the student, has his hand, flat to the ground. Plato's view was that man and earth are ultimately connected to heaven, whereas Aristotle believed that man and all the sciences could be understood via our senses, and nothing more.
Our five senses at that. Plato connected man upward, and Aristotle down, down, down, which is where we've been heading ever since. I know this sounds crazy to say we've been heading downward in the face of fiber optics and particle accelerators and instant noodles. But I'm talking about the terrible consequences of looking down into the material and neglecting the whole of which the material is a part.
We yank out organs as if they're the cause of the problems. We scrub and rinse to wipe out the evil bacteria. We cut and dump and spray without any consideration to how this is trashing and modifying the finely-tuned web of everything. And then we try to solve the consequences as if they're separate and isolated problems, and the chain reaction continues. The disinverted metaphysics of Norberto Keppe seeks to address those fundamental philosophies at the root of their inversions in its fascinating study.
You can find it there. Find many of Keppe's books and a lot of very interesting information about Keppe's work and Keppe's science there on our site.
You'll also find more on our International Congress of Analytical Trilogy.
That's coming up July 6th to 13th, 2013. Here in Brazil. We would love you to join us for that.
And you know, in talking about all this disinversion, how we conduct ourselves in society is one of the big things that needs to be disinverted.
We will look at that a little bit today. Actually, we'll look at that quite a lot. Our program goes in depth to looking at The inversion in society and how we can disinvert it. The power of cooperative living when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head continues on the Stop Radio Network.
Tuesday in
Richard: New York, and Gwen's headache is now five days old. Wednesday in London, and Ronald's left the hospital for the streets again. It's Thursday in Mogadishu, and angry students are protesting against corruption. Whether the illness is physical, psychological, or social, Norberto Keppe's The Origin of Illness is a book that gets to the bottom of it and offers a solution.
A divine society here on Earth. Kind of sounds like something cooked up by dreamers and mystics, doesn't it? An impossible dream. Well, not really. This coming July, an international group of scientists, thought leaders, and activists will gather for a week in the beautiful Brazilian countryside at the 19th International Conference of Analytical Trilogy.
To explore breakthroughs in the practical application of science, technology, and sustainable development emerging from the Science of Analytical Trilogy, founded by Dr. Norberto Arquepi. At the heart of the event will be demonstrations and new discoveries concerning the Keppe motor, a revolutionary energy-saving motor which is up to 90% more efficient than traditional motors. You'll also explore the secrets and wide applicability of capturing and rescuing free and clean energy by tapping into a metaphysical dimension that's been ignored or misunderstood by contemporary science.
You're invited to join us for the 19th International Conference of Analytical Trilogy, July 6-13, in Camuquira, Brazil.
Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head with Richard Lloyd Jones and Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: Welcome back to our program. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are on the Stop Radio Network. And you can join us in many ways. If you like what we're doing we have a formidable internet presence.
But maybe our heating through consciousness.com site is the best one for you to go to. It's loaded with videos and excerpts from books on Analytical Trilogy science. So that's a good resource for you. And I'm here again with Dr. Cláudia Bernhopper-Shako. It's very nice to have you with us, as always, Cláudia. Welcome.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Hello, Jones.
Richard: You know, Cláudia, as I work with my students down here at our Millennium Language School, and I talk with people from around the world who write to me and are interested in the work we're doing, they often arrive to the same question. How does it work, they ask. How do you guys apply these principles in practical experience, The issues that Dr.
Keppe's science of psychosociopathology addresses, like how people project their individual and collective problems outside themselves into others, how we need to begin to see the external problems that are going on and the relationship that has with our internal psychological life. How do you guys use this in practical terms? How can we begin to help them to understand that? Well,
Cláudia: you know, Richard, we live every day.
We have like a small village inside the big town, right? We have like a community, which is not the real term, but it's like maybe a villa inside of... Of a village inside a huge city.
Richard: It's actually a universe inside the big
Cláudia: city. Yes, you're right. So our group, meaning the people who live in the residences, the people who work in our companies, trilogical companies, people who do analysis.
And even though they do analysis, they can at the same time have their own jobs in traditional settings of commercial and industrial and whatever kind of jobs they have. They can be professors at universities, but they do analysis and they come to the group therapies and they read the books, they participate in our activities. And there are also some that they live in the residences, but they work in regular kind of jobs.
So we have all kinds of participation. We have people calling from Skype to do analysis by Skype. We have people downloading the programs. And then we have people participating in this project, Ação no Bem, which is good action. And this is international. We have many associates in many, many countries that are joining this philosophy of life. It's a new mentality. We could name this like an energy, an energetics that involves thousands of people that know Trilogy, by the way.
So we live our everyday life here, and some of you live in some trilogical residences. We could not call this really a community, because a community brings a meaning of isolation. And this is not so. These are more trilogical residences, are cooperatives, residential cooperatives, where people come and they share expenses, they share the mentality, they share love, they They share caring, they share culture, art, they share help.
Practical things too. Practical
Richard: things, professional help. Daycare.
Cláudia: Daycare, professional help, teaching, education. So it's a real cooperative. And the term cooperative is really what this means, cooperation. But you live in this. I used to live in a cooperative, a trilogical residence in France. I lived there for seven years in a beautiful 1500 Chateau of Louis XIV, which our group bought in France.
At that time, chateaus were very cheap. Nobody was having to pay those taxes and taking care of the land. If we were not a cooperative, we would not be able to have the chateau. Even though the price of the chateau was more or less similar. Of three-bedroom houses in Paris suburbs. It was really cheap when we bought it. And the whole group took care of the chateau.
And it was really, really very nice to live there for seven years at the side of Marne. So we enjoyed the place. We enjoyed the land. We enjoyed the chateau. We restored it. And it was so nice to have those huge rooms, so beautifully redecorated, restored. Because we had artists, plastic artists with us. Fine artists, right? Fine artists. So
Richard: we painted the walls and the doors.
We put gold and beautiful colors. So it was really a chateau in such a way that there were couples living there, and they had kids.
Cláudia: And the kids went to school, and when they had to say those activities in the classes, when kids are called to say who they are and where they live and how their family members were. And they started to speak about their lives, living in a chateau with 20 aunts and uncles and many cousins and friends.
So they called mothers or parents back there in the school and asking for a psychological examination in the kids, saying that they were too delirious. But it was true, and this was so beautiful. And in the United States, near New York, there was a cooperative up there in Fort Chimneys, like, you know, in those lakes. Finger Lakes. Finger Lakes, Finger Lakes, nearby the Finger Lakes.
Ithaca, right? Yes, exactly. Beautiful. Exactly, beautiful. And they had, like a farm, they grew organic grapes, and they did a wonderful wine, organic wine, and they sold, used to sell it in those markets, organic products in New York City. Farmers markets. Yes. So they had their trilogical cooperative. I think Gilbert Gambucci was
Richard: there then, wasn't he? Yes, Gilbert
Cláudia: Gambucci was there.
Richard: He was a wine salesman in those days.
Cláudia: So what did they do? They produced those wines, and they took care of the farm, and they were friends living there. And they had music, and on Sundays they invited people to come in and to taste the wine and buy wine in the farm. And they presented artistic concerts. They organized all these concerts on Sundays. But also in New York City, we had around New York City in Yonkers, three residences.
And they were really beautiful. Those huge mansions, they were like abandoned. And so the basement's full of garbage. And nobody, a family cannot take care of a home like this. Most of the homes in Yonkers, they were falling apart and really beautiful, like those hetero kind of homes, so beautiful.
Richard: Well, let's talk about why do this. I mean, this is quite different from how we learned to live in North America, which is interestingly where the residences began.
Cláudia: Yeah, they began there.
Richard: And this is very different from how North Americans live. They
Cláudia: live separately. Yeah, even communities
Richard: live separately. For sure. They're totally isolated. Maybe you stick the mother-in-law
Cláudia: down in the basement or something.
Richard: But that's as much as we do.
Cláudia: Yeah. So what happened is that Trilogy was in New York City, and Trilogy was being known, and Trilogy had many activities.
Dr. Keppe, myself, we had a clinic. The clinic got very big. So we had patients coming from Europe, from United States, from Brazil, and they had to stay somewhere. Hotels were very expensive. To rent houses for just one or two, it was really expensive. So they had this kind of homes where they came, they stayed, they had their permission to work. They started their trilogical cooperatives where the workers are the owners in order to support themselves.
So they joined us there and it was out of necessity. They needed somewhere to stay, something that was reasonable economically speaking. So the only thing that it was mandatory for these houses was exactly the knowledge, the living, the understanding of psychopathology, psychosociopathology. Now, recently, Sterling Allen from this Utah state, they used to have many communities there. And when he came here to visit and know Capimotor better, he got much more enthusiastic, even with the work with the residences and cooperatives, the spirit we have here, than the Capimotor itself.
Richard: This sort of thing kind of happens in Canada, where East Indian families come over, for example, and they all live together in a big house, saving money so they can buy individual homes for each other. But this kind of collective living situation is not very common in my country, trilogical
Cláudia: communities. There's a purpose to it. There is a purpose and there is the need of this group therapies inside the residences.
I mean inside with the residents. Because very soon the fights start. As you were mentioning, projection, all those quarrels, all these ideas that the other people are bothering, they are aggressive or they attack each other. Or they, one is lazy, doesn't want to perform their tasks in the house, and the other one is too noisy, and the other one is too, doesn't take care of, they don't take care of themselves.
And so there are always problems always and there are competitions and there are there is jealousy and envy. Every time a group of people get together this happens. And there is this fight for power and the power games and the ego games. So all this pathology. Must be dealt with. Otherwise, the community blows up with pathology. And if they hide pathology, it's even worse.
Pedophilic attitudes tend to start showing up, stealing, personal attacks and aggressions, addictions. Everything gets out of control in a community that has a censorship like an intransigent intolerant kind of mentality of you this you should do this you cannot do this and all those rules that generally religious communities adopt. This is absolutely pathogenic because it increases pathology in people. And on the other hand those two liberal communities they also increase pathology in people.
All the addictions are allowed and promiscuity, perversions, aggressions, even killings can happen in those communities. So, what is the secret or the magic word or recipe for our communities or residences to persist for how many years? Since 83?
Richard: Well, that's 10.
Cláudia: 83?
Richard: 20
Cláudia: years. No, 83, 93. 30 years. This year is 30 years of those cooperatives, residential cooperatives, trilogical.
Richard: It started as a necessity, turned into sort of, like I say, a practical necessity.
Yes. But then it became something more than that.
Cláudia: Nobody wants to leave because there is so much advantage, economic, professional, the tasks of everyday living, the way they take care of the children, helping each other. And there is no loneliness. There is always a shoulder to talk to and companions. You never have like a holiday or a weekend that you feel lonely and you sink in drugs or alcohol or sexual addictions or whatever.
So, you know, it's more normal. It's more healthy because consciousness of pathology is dealt with all sincerity possible, possible because they are not totally 100% sincere. But we encourage in the group therapy that Dr. Keppe and myself lead for these residences, we encourage sincerity, honesty, and truth.
Richard: Let's take a little break. You can think about that a little bit, you listening, and then we'll come back and put some more meat on the bones, as it were, try to be more specific about how this incredible thing called the Trilogical Society actually works.
In just a moment, Richard Lloyd Jones with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is the program. We're on the Stop Radio Network. Don't go away. International Society
of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil.
Richard: Tuesday in New York, and Gwen's headache is now five days old. Wednesday in London, and Ronald's left the hospital for the streets again.
It's Thursday in Mogadishu, and angry students are protesting against corruption. Whether the illness is physical, psychological, or social, Norberto Keppe's The Origin of Illness is a book that gets to the bottom of it and offers a solution.
Norberto Keppe, and there are many exciting applications of his work occurring in Brazil and numerous other locations around the world. This includes language classes, translation services, psychology sessions by phone or Skype, and the new energy solutions proposed by the Keppe Motor.
Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: With Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and you're on the Stop Radio Network. I'm not sure if these cooperative living ideas are too abstract for you, listening, or not, but I'd like to work with Cláudia here to try and make it more tangible. Because these collective living arrangements that we've been developing here in Analytical Trilogy for 30 years allow for a lot of rationalizing of resources.
We can share collective cars, collective daycare within the community, collective cleaning and cooking arrangements. So this is interesting and exciting, Cláudia, because you deal with the pathology as it comes up. You know, I was involved in an intentional community, the name we gave for these kinds of communities a number of years ago. For about 10 years, I never actually lived directly there, but I had much association with the people who did live in communal situations, and I spent three weeks, a month there sometimes.
And what you notice is that these things that are not dealt with, these pathologies that you talk about, they fester, and you can have things that blow up 10 or 15 years later. Where did that come from? Because these issues have not been addressed. This drive for power, this desire to dominate others or these personal problems
that come up in any
Cláudia: kind of relationship where you live together.
This is a serious
Richard: problem. And I think as people are thinking about this, too, they might have this question in their head. They've heard about the communities with the charismatic leaders, and suddenly all the members of the community are drinking Kool-Aid, you know, so it scares people.
Cláudia: Yeah, sure, and it should. It should. It's totally abnormal, this kind of situation, and this is similar to those monasteries.
Monasteries, religious institutions, where all pathology is hidden under the carpet. And this is dangerous institutions of power where everything is hidden under the carpet. So what we encourage, really encourage in everybody in those residences and trilogical cooperatives might be work, working cooperatives, enterprises or residences. In those places people are like they immediately speak about other people's problems in these groups and they talk about each other's problems because we start from a principle that nobody is 100% healthy, nobody is perfect.
So we will never ever have a cooperative with everybody like an angel or like a saint. And those people who generally create those communities, they pretend a lot. They get too hypocritical because it's like a law inside the community to be perfect, not to sin, not to do this, not to do that. And here we encourage people to see, to become conscious of the problems they have.
Let me give you an example. When we have guests and they come and they see this different behavior, they have a doubt. They think, but is everybody perfect here or should you perform in this or that area? No. So when they come to the group setting, they see each other speaking about each other problems openly, totally openly, in order to be like a pressure pan that you need to have the consciousness all the time coming to the surface. Otherwise it blows up.
So, going back to this practical example, we had in a Yonkers residence a woman who used to be a nun, and she was expulsed from her institution. And we knew that she was being excommunicated by the superiors of her convent and we accepted her to do analysis because a person inside this residence says it's a must to do individual and group analysis in order to deal with the pathology.
And after a while, she started to manifest her kleptomania. She was kleptomaniac. She stole things from people and she had such a censorship such a censorship because to steal is a it's like a mortal sin. Yeah sure. And so what happened is what is that she started to steal things from people. And was this why
Richard: she was asked to leave the convent do you think probably.
So here she is in this community now with this problem.
Cláudia: And people started, come on, Mrs. M, she stole my jewelry or she stole my pair of shoes and she used to steal and give away to other people. This is an interesting behavior that very few things she kept to herself. And so she stole from the people and gave away to other people as presents.
Richard: What a story.
Cláudia: But she denied. She had this denial behavior. So she denied everything, denied everything. And in the group therapies, we tried to show her that more important than stopping to steal was that she would recognize that she stole things, that she would stop denying that problem. And there was no reason for her to be excommunicated from where she lived with everybody.
Nobody wanted her to go away and to live. They wanted her to recognize that she was stealing and they hoped this problem would be controlled, at least somehow controlled. And you know something? The biggest problem with this lady was that she couldn't bear seeing that she did that. So she couldn't bear. So she stayed for some time more. But later on, she had herself this impulse to leave because she couldn't be in a place knowing that everybody knew her problem, even though nobody censored her.
Richard: What is this process, Cláudia? Because I can just imagine people listening thinking, wait a minute, somebody's in my house and they're stealing my stuff. I go to the police.
Cláudia: What a tolerance, isn't
Richard: it? Incredible tolerance. It's a sickness.
Cláudia: It's much more than that, isn't it? What is the purpose of bringing these people to police? They will get worse. So they must be helped.
And so everybody took care of their belongings.
Richard: Locked them away where she couldn't find them.
Cláudia: And helped her as far as she accepted. And she stayed for years, and she was benefited for years.
Richard: And what happens in this process, Cláudia, where the censorship is diminished, and then the real problem can be dealt with? What are the consequences of this?
Cláudia: The consequences are that people are innerly pressured to change for better.
They have such a pressure, psychological inner pressure, because one has what we say consciousness. Our consciousness which is not really conscience religious conscience but it's consciousness and we have an ethical natural behavior or expectation we have this desire for perfection which is innate. So if we know if we admit if we feel a problem we have a deviation. If we really can have the opportunity to see and see and see and focus that without being punished from outside.
And the punishment of knowing who I am, fully knowing, it's very powerful.
Richard: Well, this is what you're saying now. I'm just having this insight as you're speaking that when this happens with a person like that, any kind of problem, the person can't get away with it anymore because there's this political correctness today where nobody talks about these things. So the person is free to continue doing it.
Cláudia: Yeah, and imagines nobody seeing. And imagines nobody sees, yeah, because nobody says anything. This is really false in our society today, isn't it? And people cannot accept the other one and love and still keep loving and helping the other one, knowing who they are and what they do, the problem they have. So the vision we have is not that the person is really criminal or a sinner in this sense.
We don't have this connotation of correction. We have the connotation of bringing to the surface the consciousness of the problems. So sometimes it's even worse for a person to be like in a theater, a comic theater, seeing his problem be exposed in a comic theater of the group, of the team group. And so they get so much upset, embarrassed, that they think, oh my God, I'll never ever do this again, like children do.
Children do this a lot. And this is sometimes called bullying, and bullying is not right. But when the colleagues say, how come you have this problem, you have that problem, But keep relating to the other one. Keep supporting, being supportive, and being merciful. I would use the term merciful, mercy. Be merciful.
Richard: As you're speaking, Cláudia, I'm thinking of the incredible example of Jesus, you know, where he was faced with the adulteress, remember?
Yes. Yeah, and they said, we must stone her. It's your law. And Jesus said, okay, well, let you who is without sin. Who
Cláudia: never sinned here,
Richard: started throwing the first stone?
Cláudia: Yeah, but we're so censored. I think today some would say, well, I've never sinned, and they'd throw away. Back then, maybe they had a little more integrity. So if you enter a group therapy of one of those residents, those cooperatives, you will think, how many problems they have, because everything is exposed.
And in reality, in practice, they are much more virtuous than any other in the general society because their sins are exposed. And the sins of the people that are hidden, they are much, much worse,
Richard: much worse. But how do we do this, Cláudia, in a normal community if we don't have Cláudia Pacheco and Norberto Keppe to do this? Ah, this is a problem.
This is a problem because if you watch Dr. Keppe, it's expert guidance of these groups. It's incredible. Yeah. And this is not something that we have in the everyday society.
Cláudia: It used to happen in like one or two countries where they started those communities or these experiences. And they had analysts, trained analysts to do this. Now we have Skype. So we have a chance to develop some kind of help to those people who want to start something or to introduce analytical trilogies, this science of psychopathology in communities they already have to see if they can restore or save the community.
Richard: And I'm thinking as you're speaking, too, there's a real need to train more psychosociotherapists.
Cláudia: Yes, yes, absolutely. And we do this. In this two-year course I give here twice a week in the evenings, I have one every Tuesday we have these workshops where problems are being dealt with. And those who are being trained, they learn how to deal with the problems in the group, not to allow too much projection, to know who is being more aggressive, who is being more projective.
Because the projection is the person gets so much upset and involved with the other person's problems that they don't realize they have the same problem in themselves, either hidden, repressed, or just denied. So if you have too much a problem in relation to a person who's lazy, then you have a problem. Generally, people, they don't realize their inversion. So everybody who has a problem, generally, it's seen as a person who's enjoying life.
If I work, and if another person doesn't have to work as much as I do, I don't see this anymore. But people normally think, wow, this guy is taking advantage. He doesn't work. He is here taking advantage from this cooperative, and I'm working for me and for him. So people can become very angry sometimes. And these things are all dealt in the group because he's envious and not really wanting to correct the other one or to help the lazy, but they are envious at the lazy.
Richard: I'm thinking for those who are listening, Cláudia, maybe a first book to begin with would be Keppe's Origins of Illness. Yeah, Origins of Illness. And, of course, there's also your book, The ABCs of Analytical Trilogy.
Cláudia: And there are some teachings also in Liberation of the People, Pathology of Power. I wrote a chapter in that book because, you know, so many people have been thrown away from their homes because they don't pay mortgage.
And there are huge homes totally empty. They could get together with a few, like a small group, like I say small, 10 people, 15 people can fit very well. Those mentions that are totally empty. And they can do this if if they understand psychopathology.
Richard: Yeah, that's the trick isn't it, how to deal with those quirks and conflicts. Well, that's a specialty of ours.
So if you want to explore that more, some of nerverto Keppe's books would be an excellent start. You'll find them in our bookstore at healing through consciousness.com. If you or someone you know is involved in an intentional community or cooperative venture and you'd like to get better at handling all that, maybe we could set up some sort of training for you.
That's our program for this week. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head from Brazil. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and we'll talk to you next time on the Stop Radio Network.
