Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I remember the day it fully dawned on me that the path society was on was a dead end. I was on the train from Rhinebeck, New York, to Toronto. A beautiful but tedious journey, with only vestiges of the former romance of train travel to keep me company. I was settled in with snacks and bottled water and ample reading material to fill the long ten hours or so ahead of me.
My book of choice at that time was Norberto Keppe's Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power. And I felt myself changing as I read. Maybe it wasn't a change I was experiencing but a recognition. T.S. Eliot spoke about how at the end of all our exploring we would arrive at where we'd started and know the place for the first time and that perhaps comes closer to how I felt.
It's like a recognition in Keppe's writing of something I also knew to be true but had forgotten. Keppe's great book does that, reawakens our idealism and gives us a glimpse of the new society that's possible. And this can all happen because Keppe helps disinvert us and get us back on track. Correcting Metaphysics and Society, today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. My hope is that as you listen to our programs here on the Stop Radio Network, that you'll have a similar experience of hearing and acting on the wisdom contained in Keppe's work.
Our programs are available 24-7 now on the Stop Radio Network, available on iTunes. It's in the radio section of iTunes in the News Talk Radio category. Just scroll down till you see us there, Stop Radio Network. Our site at Healing Through Consciousness also has all the goods. And new programs are coming soon. On top of our Thinking with Somebody Else's Head program and our Healing Through Consciousness Psychological Call-In Advice program.
Coming soon, Conscious Company with Susan Berkley and analyzing the 1% with Occupy Wall Street activist Gilbert Gambucci looking at the pathology of power and how to really affect change inside the Occupy movement that's so powerful and present in North America today. I was participating with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco in a teleconference a few days ago and we were going through the list of projects we in Keppe's International Society of Analytical Trilogy are working on in our various social initiatives.
This mostly happens around 350 kilometers from São Paulo in the idyllic town of Cambuquira. Nestled in the mountains, surrounded by coffee plantations and tropical forests, in an area of a few hundred square kilometers that features natural mineral water springs that are considered among the best healing waters on the planet, we are involved in a social experiment of profound beauty. First of all, this is a very poor region, and not because of lack of resources, no.
This is one of the richest agricultural areas in the country. Just to give you a picture of it, just spit out a watermelon seed there into the fertile soil, cover it with more soil, and your farming is done. Well, that's a slight exaggeration, but only slight. This area is poor not by dint of being deprived of conditions to prosper, but because an inverted socioeconomic system plunders the richness and carries it off into the pockets of the 1%.
The farmlands are controlled by huge conglomerates, the minerals by national and international companies. Even a large part of the water is in the grubby hands of the Nestles and Coca-Colas and Perriers of this world. It's ugly, to say the least, and the people are understandably beaten down and desolate. So for the past six years, we've been working there to help restore a true society to that community.
I think we've talked to this radio program before about this, at least some aspects of it. But we bought an old Art Deco hotel there and restored it. That was the first initiative we had because some of the townspeople came to us and asked us if there was anything we could do to help them there. That was the first thing we decided that would be useful for them and also give us a place to stay when we went there.
So we had this old art deco hotel restored to its original splendor. It's very beautiful there. It had been abandoned for a number of years, and we began then by offering free piano classes to the kids. Arts being the basis of society, as Keppe stresses often in his work, this had an enormous impact in the community. We added sewing classes for the women to learn a trade, dance and guitar lessons, photography classes, English classes, a Portuguese tile painting that's being used to improve the city.
You can see examples of this beautiful tile work all around the walls of the city now. A brick works on how to make bricks that could be used to build houses very cheaply. The land is plentiful, and people just didn't have a means to do that, so we're helping them in that area as well so they can develop their own homes. We're looking to try to get some land now where that can begin to happen.
Maybe the city can even donate land and people can begin to build their houses very cheaply. We developed a social currency that's used to buy staples and other things around the town. The Keppe Motor Factory, we'll be building one of those soon to develop ecological fans, ceiling fans and table fans. It's an alternative economy really that returns prosperity to the people who work and not this process of extracting the riches for just the 1% of the population of the planet.
It's a model really I think for how to create a new spiritualized society based on goodness, truth and beauty and it's flourishing before our very eyes. A social experiment that's very very exciting. If you're really interested in that I think there are some opportunities here for social groups around the world to begin to learn and apply these techniques in their own communities to make better communities, to make a better world.
There's a social currency, actually, as we were discussing in our teleconference a few days ago, this social currency idea may be coming to a school district in New Orleans soon where our good friend Diana Boylston teaches. So we'll have more information on that in our programs too.
And more coming up about this in our program today, correcting metaphysics in society. Very, very important subject. We'll be continuing with that and Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco when we return on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. Back in just a moment.
Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: We are here on the Stop Radio Network Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco has joined me. You know, when I first came to Brazil, it's almost 11 years now.
Can you
believe that? I know I don't look a day over 30, but anyway. I first came here and
Richard: I started to study about envy, inversion, these phenomenal subjects, concepts that Dr. Keppe has brought to psychology, to society. In fact, I did an interview with you and he shortly after I got here at your beautiful home in the country where we talked a lot about that.
I play it for my students sometimes just so I can remember that when I was a little bit younger. But also, it was a fantastic interview. And I thought, wow, this concept of inversion, which we talked about last week, is so phenomenal. All I have to do is mention it to a few people, and they're going to be totally excited about this.
And they're going to totally get on board and they're going to say, wow, where can I learn more about this? And exactly the opposite happened. I never heard from some of my friends again. So I was thinking about this in light of our work. It seems so impossible that things are going to change. And yet we're doing many things here that are bringing a change.
And maybe we could talk a little bit about some of these areas. I see a trilogy, Analytical Trilogy, Dr. Keppe's science, having an impact in so many important areas. And there's so many projects and things, initiatives that are beginning from here that people could really have hope by starting to study and research and work with us in these projects that are going on.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Yes. First of all, you mentioned the thing of inversion. Yeah. So, people say they want to get better, they want to be better, they want to do better, they want to improve, they want to develop, but they are just speaking... Words. Words.
Richard: Empty words.
Cláudia: Empty words. Empty words. Because deep down, in the emotional level, human beings don't want to get better. They don't want to be better.
They don't want to do good, and they don't want to be good. Because they think that being good, being honest, dedicating themselves, leaving behind the egotism, they are going to lose. They are going to be losers. They are going to be stepped over. They are going to be humiliated. They are going to be slaves. All the negative things, like, are coming together, are glued to the concept of good, beauty, and truth.
So truth, everybody speaks about the truth. What is the truth? What is the truth? They discuss about the truth, but nobody wants the truth. Nobody wants it, because we have it inside of us, and we run away from it as much as possible. We find all the means possible to alienate ourselves. Everybody thinks that the truth is painful, it hurts, it's inconvenient.
So everybody's lying all the time. And I'm not speaking about being aggressive. I'm not speaking about hurting other people. I'm not speaking about dumping on people. I'm not speaking about that. I'm speaking about being truthful, being fair, acting according to justice, being loyal, wanting to help other people, speaking the truth and helping ourselves. So nobody speaks the truth because everybody, well, if I say the truth, if I tell the truth, I'll get an enemy, I'll be hurt, I'll be in a jail, inside a jail.
I'll be fired. I'll be fired. And this is
Richard: the way society works. I just want to give you an example to illustrate what you're saying, Cláudia. It's so true, but when we hear those words, the initial impact we might want to have is, no, no, no, but I tell the truth. Well, I was talking about this with some students in a company the other day, and I said, if money was no problem, if you didn't have to worry about your basic survival, what would you do differently?
And she said, well, I would sure tell a few people what I think around here. I would, sure. And I said, but these people you want to tell what you really think. Are they hurting the department, the company? She said, sure they are. I said, well, why don't you tell them that now? Oh, I can't enter in that area. So the implication being that if she had lots of money, she didn't have to worry about losing her job.
Then she would tell everybody in the department what she really thought. And
Cláudia: maybe she would not. Maybe she
Richard: would find another excuse. Maybe.
Cláudia: Because she's not interested in doing any good for other people. She just doesn't care. She's just caring about herself, and that's the philosophy of humanity. And this is why the world is sinking, because it's upside down. There is no way humanity can work like this, upside down, against all its essential principles.
When we see a society, it has to be organized like a natural, organic society, like all nature works with laws. Imagine if fishes and birds and dogs and cats and trees and worms
Richard: and everything would act like totally against what they should do. Imagine the chaos. And that's what we do. Yeah. The orange tree saying, no, today I don't think I'm going to produce any oranges.
Cláudia: Or I'm going to produce different oranges. I have like a law
Richard: inside my genes, programming, but I don't agree. I think I should be red or I think I should be purple or I think I should be bigger or smaller. I think salty oranges would be a good idea. Salty oranges. So that's, God made a mistake the way he did me. He created me.
So this
Cláudia: is the way human beings think all the time, that we should be different, we should do differently. And God made a mistake with humanity. Never, never, ever people think that the mistake is not God's mistake. It's our mistake. We go against what is right in ourselves and in the world.
Richard: So what in Dr. Keppe's work could help us then with this fundamental problem of inversion, of not telling the truth?
Where are the solutions, Cláudia?
Cláudia: So to become conscious of the inversion, Richard, is not easy. No. It's not easy. It's not an intellectual process. You can discuss about this to some extent socially in lectures, and many people can grasp the concept a lot. They can understand and have many insights just reading the books, our books, and listening to our programs, and reasoning in another way, like in a different direction, opposite direction, that normally society reasons.
Society doesn't reason
Richard: now it acts emotionally it reacts emotionally. It's not real reason
Cláudia: that's right. It's not
Richard: reason it delirates it.
Cláudia: What delirates like
Richard: delirious
Cláudia: delirates it
Richard: creates delirium because no
Cláudia: we're not. I invented the word delirates okay.
Richard: It's a I accept I
Cláudia: accept that word okay. It's uh
yeah
Richard: because we're not reasoning we don't if we reasoned we would say well wait a. When we do something good, we feel good.
That must mean that doing good is good. And every spiritual philosophy, every saint, every prophet has said the same thing. So we know, we know that we should do, but we don't. So we're not reasoning, not using our reasoning.
Cláudia: Yes. And even though we must protect ourselves from other people's lies and bad intentions, And this is true. We should see our own negative intentions ourselves, because seeing other people's negative intentions doesn't give us the right or the logical explanation or the logical reason to do the same.
Because I will do something against my essence. And it doesn't work. Sooner or later, it will bring destructive consequences. And this is what is happening, for instance, to our technology, our technology dealing with energy sources. We are all upside down. We are consuming matter because we think energy comes from matter and not that matter comes from energy. And this is all inverted.
We are eating up the planet, consuming all our resources. And this is based on an inverted, upside-down concept of physics. And if we don't see this in time, it will be too late.
Richard: We have taken this idea, I think, that we're progressing, you know that we're starting from nothing and now we're getting better and one of the things I would like to say that I think I understood from Dr Keppe's work right at the beginning was that Keppe has brought a a completed view of the essence of man you talked about the essence because we we don't really know what is the human being made of if we come from monkeys then we have no idea you know so disinverting this has
Cláudia: made why why now let me let you explain.
And as you have, you are so, you have such a beautiful accent and you speak so beautiful English.
So please do this for me. Explain them why Darwin created this upside down idea that we developed from monkeys.
Richard: Well, this idea, for one, is sort of the culmination of a process in science of taking God out of the picture. If you remove and what is
Cláudia: he basing himself what kind of philosophy or philosopher he's following philosopher I don't know Aristotle I think based on Aristotle
Richard: and what is Aristotle's metaphysics the sign there's everything you know everything through your senses through and seeing and
Cláudia: potential
Richard: creates
Cláudia: act not
Richard: the other way around that act potential is actually the destruction of act yeah and this is something again in philosophy that Dr.
Keppe is
Cláudia: corrected so everything in our science or the pseudoscience we have in the 20th century is based on this upside-down concept of Aristotle that everything is like coming from the lesser to the bigger they develop like a development idea so we as if we were born to be developed still and not that we are just we are complete when we are born but we just grow in size but we are total we are integral when we are born and so are the beings the if you if you examine a seed of a tree you will see inside a tree all the components of a huge oak for instance "it's everything in there it's just a matter of growing and not developing in the sense that it starts from nothing essentially" yeah so nothing the lesser doesn't give the bigger the bigger brings the lesser but not the
Richard: lesser gives the bigger and this is the the uh the old Greek philosophy of Aristotle and some of his followers yeah in Keppe's metaphysics we have to of complete things right not of partial things becoming something bigger and because you said last week about the chicken and the egg and I always love this conversation because actually you need both it's a complete thing it's not something that the egg became
a chicken and then you know this kind of idea that.
We
Cláudia: come from in our inverted metaphysics.
So there's a lot to be discovered in Keppe's work here, in this area. Oh my God. Oh my God. Cosmovision, cosmology, it's all to be understood.
Richard: Which book could they read that would give them some sense of
Cláudia: this? Well, some of this can be in Metaphysics 1.
Richard: Yeah, Meta 1.
Cláudia: Yeah, Meta 1, which is Liberation of Being. Yeah. And there he speaks about the being and how the pure act is the being and not that we have to learn and we have to grow older in order to be someone.
We are, since we are born, since we are conceived, like in a conception. So what happens is that in that seed, in those DNA, the first chromosomes, they have everything in them and just a matter of growing but it's all there all in codes we are all encoded completed now the world is the same everything is the same but we need to respect the laws so if we think that like energy comes from matter it's upside down so what I see is what I don't see is not and this is a materialistic view of science but what is more powerful is energy and it's invisible so more like I guess I don't remember the exact scale but around 70 or 90 percent of all the universe is energy it's a huge proportion a huge
Richard: yeah so what is matter is just.
It's just a minimum part of
Cláudia: the universe.
Yeah. And we are the same. Most of us is energy. Most of us is transcendental. We are immersed in transcendence. Most of us is our soul. It's our spiritual level, like a spiritual dimension. We are not body and soul. We are a spirit with a body that manifests with matter. But we are much more spirit and soul than matter. Yeah. And we want to live the other way around.
So everything is upside down, Richard. So if we follow this consumerism concept, then we need to buy, buy, buy, buy in order to grow, to develop economy. So this is crazy. This is upside down. We don't need that. This is consuming the planet. This is taking away our chances of survival. So it's not that we don't have a way out. We have to go back.
Now, let
Richard: me tell you. Let me take a quick break, Cláudia. We'll come back in just a second. We are back on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. In just a moment. Don't go away.
Richard: We're back now. Thinking with somebody else. I always get a little worried because I cut you off in the middle of something important. So I don't want to take too much time before we come back to that. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. Richard Lloyd Jones, Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. And we have to go back. We have to go back.
Cláudia: Go back to what? So if you want to get better in terms of your health, you need to go back. You need to go back to what you were. You need to go back to your origin. You need to go back to understand what went wrong in the past. What did you do wrong? What did you think wrong? What did you feel wrong?
What did you do against your nature? So, to recover. And going forward, it's like going backwards. To recover. It's not to create something new. It's to recover what was original. To go back to more, like, to perfection. So going back is that
Richard: it has this horrible feeling for we North Americans we think but wait a minute I don't want to know about what we did wrong I want to I want to solve the problem and go forward and we can't get there that way can't
Cláudia: be wrote the man or the cosmic man the man of the future the man of the stars will be the present man this one here now with the consciousness of the past mistakes and good and right deeds.
So, the man of the future, the conscious man, the cosmic man, is us. It's me. Today will be the same, but with the consciousness of the past. Everything that it made unconscious, all the mistakes, we need to be, we need to go to the past and see there what we did wrong in order to correct and then I am the man or the person of the future the cosmic
Richard: person so if we go back we can see this mistake that Aristotle made and this mistake that Darwin made and the doctors are
Cláudia: doing oh my god so many mistakes if you come to analysis and if you start analyzing your past not the past as Freud does like stay there for years analyzing the Oedipus complex or ridiculous things like this.
But it's going and turning the sight to your past and seeing what and how and when you were inverted upside down. What did you do against your life? What did you do against your health? So as soon as you get conscious of this, your body will have the chance to recover because then the energetic level go back to normal. We are just working with one spin of our genetics we are holding back the other one because of inversion yeah
Richard: the DNA is not yeah
Cláudia: it's not spinning correctly
Richard: yeah it's not working correctly you said something beautiful because if we go back and see the mistake it comes from the premise that we we were complete and we did something against that completeness that caused the problems that we have today so if we can see that we can revert the process is
Cláudia: this imagine that the wheels of a train it goes back and forth back and forth right in order to move ahead so it it goes back and forth yeah the
Richard: uh whatever
Cláudia: that's
Richard: whatever I'm doing it in the air can you see me doing we have these bars when one when one bar the
Cláudia: bar on the top goes forward in the opposite complementary two spins in order to go to go forward so that's what we have to do.
"In order to go forward, we need to go to the past."
It's beautiful, this. It's beautiful.
Richard: But again, it comes from the idea that we have a metaphysics, a sort of a completed essence. For
Cláudia: instance, can I give you an example? Practical, because we deal
Richard: with facts. And we deal with clients
Cláudia: that are individuals. And this is science. It's not philosophy. So a person comes, for instance, a woman. She's bleeding. She has a problem in her menstruation.
She is menstruating more than she should. So there is already something in the body, somatized, psychosomatization. If in one session she realizes that she is and why she is and how this started inside of herself. Psychologically. It's
Richard: realizing insight, not only intellectual, must be together with the feeling. So in
the session with a method of associations etc etc she realizes that she is against her own femininity for some reason she's denying her own femininity and she has some emotional reasons to do that
Cláudia: as soon as she realizes the problem will be solved and she gets healed with no drugs whatsoever and there are thousands of cases like this hundreds let me say hundreds hundreds already that were already inside this method, being analyzed with this method, not only this problem, but any organic disease can be solved by our own inner pharmacy, our own energetic means.
We can do this. Our bodies are very potent. It's not a potential, it's potent. We have the pure act in our bodies. So if we are accepting our essence, if we are not blocking our energy, because every time you block a feeling, Richard, you're blocking energy. Every time you block a thought, you dislike. Every time you block a truth, this is not religion, this is science.
If you block something that you know that is a fact and you try to deny it, then you create an energetic blockage in yourself and a disease starts.
Richard: So socially...
Cláudia: This is totally scientific.
Richard: This is beautiful. This
Cláudia: is totally scientific.
Richard: Society is blocking an enormous amount of energy to have the problems that we have.
Cláudia: Imagine, if you don't have money, you can't do anything.
So all humanity, a working force, a tremendous working force, stopped because they put this idea of money in capitalism or Marxism or whatever. The money is in the hand of a few. And this enslavement or this slavery, it's all... Humanity that is entrapped in this. Yes. Even the rich ones are entrapped in their own money. So, another practical example. We are not here to build a new society.
We are here to help to recover the true society that was left behind and forgotten. I don't know how long ago. A long time ago. So see what we can take of advantage from what is already and to recover, like we are doing in Cambuquira. We have this, como é que é? Filho adotivo.
Richard: It's
Cláudia: an adopted child. Adopted. Adopted city. It's small.
It's inside the mountains. It's poor. They have their 1%, their two, huge farmers. But they have a big number of people with low income and poor conditions of life. So it is as if this city was forgotten. It was, I think, I guess, it's not even in the map. They have taken it away from the map. Wow. So it's such a beautiful, natural place.
Yeah. And it used to be a city where people went to gamble. Gambling casinos there casinos but the casinos were forbidden and then there is this pure pure mineral waters there are healing waters so we went there we saw the city watches in decay we saw many poor people asking begging for help political powers don't like give a damn for the city and the mayor was dying very sick and so the people came and said "what are you doing here" this large group of trilogists went there just to just to travel to to know uh these healing waters and so they came to us and they asked "could you help us please you come from a large city you may know important and powerful people that could give help" so we thought what powerful people could give any help for the city and they can take things from here but not give things and that's what they do they take the water, they take the plantation they use they exploit the workers to get more profits, to take more minerals, to
Richard: collect to harvest the
Cláudia: coffee because hand harvesting it's much better it gives a much better quality of coffee and they export this coffee so we started the work there so what did you do we went to see if there was some something to buy like to have a place to be and to stay to start helping them so we bought an old hotel which was the biggest the largest and the
most important in the city for a very good price because all the hotels were for sale at the time they're all empty all empty so we bought it with all furnished and it was as if like like those movies Hollywood movies of this ghost cities so interesting and so we started to discover beautiful things that were left from the past inside the hotel outside the hotel so we thought why to start building new things let's start to recover and that's what we start doing with this hotel and try not to remodel it in in another fashion but trying to go back to what it used to be
Richard: to maintain something that was there from
Cláudia: the past like retro mentality
Richard: right exactly exactly
Cláudia: so what we have now there a project which is going on a scientific one where we are applying some of our concepts with these people and helping them and they are so glad the powerful ones don't like it they try to impede us but the people they are joining us and it's so amazing how the people who go there to volunteer they become much much happier than those who are being helped because they are doing something useful so as we do for others we are doing for ourselves Richard this is also an energetic natural law "give in order to receive what you do to your fellow man you do to yourself."
So I think we will not recover the planet just by fighting the powerful.
They're going to end up by dying in their own craziness and egotism. I think we should start taking care of our own world and what we can as soon as possible because if we don't start taking care now, it will be difficult to recover anything. So many people say, okay, okay, but what about the large plantations and the large farmers and the large this and the large that?
Well, that's something that must be cared to. I mean, politicians must realize that they don't get any advantage from serving the powerful. They should serve the people. And as soon as the politicians start to realize that they get their power from the people and not from the money that the powerful give them, like those huge percentages they give to the politicians when they want to pass a law.
If politicians realize that they're going to be in a much better state, if they do help the people changing the laws, then we will start seeing the change of the planet. But this is, as I told you the other time, it's a resonant effect. Everybody must increase in their level of consciousness. So you, you, you, you that is like listening to us, you are already able and you have already a lot of things you know and you have inside of you and you have a knowledge enough, knowledge enough to start opening your mouth and being helpful to your fellow man.
Because people are also stingy and egotist in terms of their own ideas. You can, you know, and you can contribute a lot to society and to your fellow man by speaking, by teaching, by telling them what you know, by helping them. And when you start to do this, you will feel what comes to you. You will rapidly understand what I'm speaking about.
Of course, there will be people who will become your enemies, but they are your enemies anyhow. They're just going to show their...
Richard: Enemy-ness.
Cláudia: You don't have this word, do
Richard: you? Their animosity, maybe.
Cláudia: Animosity. But those ones who accept, they will become so grateful, and you will feel inside of you how good it is and how healthy and how important for your own growth to start doing good outside of you.
And then it will come back
Richard: to you. This give and take of goodness holds great promise for the new society that burns in each of us if we calm down the frantic desperation stimulated by our inverted society and our restless hearts. There are many answers in the work of Norberto Keppe. And I urge you to learn more about that.
I wish for all of us an experience of this better society. And soon. And remind you that we're doing some incredible stuff.
That's our program for this week. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Talk to you next time on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
