Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking With Somebody Else's Head. In Norberto Keppe's extraordinary book, Liberation of the People, he writes that humankind reckons among its numbers a few individuals who are completely sick. This includes those who have succeeded in attaining positions of social power. That's why the subtitle of his book is The Pathology of Power. He wrote that in 1984, a good year for books like that, as Orwell prophesied. But surprisingly, no one has really picked up the torch and continued that analysis.
No, most explorations of powerful people are somehow in awe of their accomplishments, failing to see the pathology behind their ascent to power. They point out the wrinkles but miss the rot underneath. Kepi, now in his 90s, continues to work to make us conscious that we are driven by the sickest among us, who form secret societies and influence the social structure to serve their needs rather than the people. It's a study that he has called sociopathology, which treats the social difficulties wherein the human being becomes a victim of a sick society.
Power and Demonic Envy. Today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Well, it's been a few weeks since we've posted, so this will be the eighth now in our spiritual series based on Norberto Keppe's new book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, and his even more recent book, Sociotherapy and Exorcism. I think that's 42 books now and counting. Kepi is 92 and showing no signs of letting up at this stage. Our Thinking With Somebody Else's Head podcasts are streaming full-time on our Stop Radio network.
And our individual podcast episodes are available through Spotify. Our topic today on power is an important one, I believe. You know, when I talk to many people from many parts of the world about these problems that we're facing today, I often hear that it's the human being who needs to change first, and in changing, drive further changes in the social structure.
It's a common idea in the new consciousness movements springing up everywhere, and especially prevalent in many of the meditation-based spiritual groups migrating from the East to the West over the past 50 years or so. But there's a subtle undercurrent there of both blaming the ordinary person for the current dire situation and then throwing on his and her shoulders responsibility for changing it at the same time. I remember the Who Moved My Cheese business book from the 90s. You remember that? And it's not so subtle message in this line of change or else.
Adapt to what's being thrown at you, no matter how ridiculous or badly thought out or outright manipulated into being it is, by those secret groups meeting in protected locations around the world, shut off from journalists or citizen activists, but protected by host country armies and police forces. The idea in this book was, the world is changing, and it's up to you to adapt to it, symbolized by the poor mice and men who arrive to their normal routine one day and
discover the cheese that used to be there has been mysteriously moved to another place by God knows who. It seems like a valid theme for personal development and career success, doesn't it? And that's exactly how it was sold. But it doesn't consider the responsibility of the cheese movers. They're never identified, of course, just faceless and nameless veys working in the shadows, and forcing you to change whether it's good for you and society or not, and then
publishing patronizing parables to convince you that acquiescing to that is the way to better cheese. It's a disagreeable idea, isn't it? And one that completely ignores the role of pathology in human affairs. What if the cheese mover is a complete sadistic psychopath, or a tight-fisted a dictatorial leader bent on getting another pound of flesh from desperate employees or subjects. Change, you minions, or be gone. So I think we need to understand this dynamic of power a little more.
Just because something's happening doesn't mean it's inevitable or even right. Change and societal movements rightly need to be connected up to some universal truths to be truly valid. And that means bringing theology and philosophy back into our science and economics and politics. It begs the question, doesn't it, of why we should just go along with change when the promoters of change are the sickest among us. Let's go a little deeper into that today. Power and demonic envy.
When Thinking With Somebody Else's Head returns in just a moment. It
is dishonest to think that all harmful acts are committed unconsciously. Norberto Cappi. disinverting the human being and society.
Richard: Tuesday in New York, and Gwen's headache is now five days old. Wednesday in London, and Ronald's left the hospital for the streets again. It's Thursday in Mogadishu, and angry students are protesting against corruption. Whether the illness is physical, psychological, or social,
Roberto Kepi's The Origin of Illness is a book that gets to the bottom of it and offers a solution.
Richard: Welcome back to Thinking With Somebody Else's Head, Richard Lloyd Jones with Claudia Bernhardt-Pacheco, continuing our series now on Dr. Kepi's extraordinary books, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, and now Sociotherapy and Exorcism,
which we are desperately trying to translate. It's very difficult to keep up with Dr. Kepi, Claudia. We finished translating a book and he's got another one ready to go. I want to say to him sometimes, Dr. Kepi, can you just slow down a little bit? Can you just give me a break?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: And I wonder, as he gets older in age, he thinks, I have to write and write and write.
Richard: I have to get more done.
Cláudia: Yeah, because then I'm getting closer and
Richard: closer to…
Time is limited, I guess. Okay. It's okay, Dr. Kepi. More than
Cláudia: 40 books.
Richard: But he said he constantly writes because he has to get down everything, and he feels a kind of an obligation.
Cláudia: Yeah, and he says, if I don't say it, nobody will.
Richard: No, and that's true.
Cláudia: If I don't write it, nobody will, so I have to.
Richard: Just move, yeah, okay. But you said in your theology class recently, Claudia, that somehow we hate Jesus. That stood out in my mind, that we find his values repugnant.
And I've been thinking a lot about that lately. I remember when I was in high school, I had an English teacher who loved literature. And she knew that I loved literature too, but I could never show that because it's not cool. And one time I remember, she was a very, very tiny woman. She came running up to me in the hall of the school, and I was talking to my friends, my basketball friends and stuff, and she said, Oh, Richie, wasn't Shakespeare marvelous in the class today?
And I remember thinking, Yes, it was marvelous, but I could never say that. I could never admit that I liked it because it wasn't cool. And I think in some way I'm making this connection between that we find the values of beauty, of goodness, of truth kind of like not cool, like not wonderful. I had a chance to meet her many years later when I was asked to speak at the high school graduation of my high school.
They invited me to be the guest speaker. And I had a chance to speak to her. And I think I corrected that with her. I hope I did. I don't remember now if I actually said that, but I spoke to her very well. So I wanted to just come at it this way, that we're – Dr. Kibbe talks a lot about this, that we call the demons, that we invite them to be here. And maybe some of it is in this way, that we don't give value to the virtues, the values.
Richard,
Cláudia: this phrase you remembered I said in my class. Yeah. We hate Jesus. This is so shocking, right? But we have to consider some points in here. First, being scientists of the soul, we know about the unconscious or sort of unconscious mind or level where our evil intentions and attitudes are hidden by us, by society, by schools of thought, by social pressure,
religious pressure even. religious
Cláudia: pressure because, come on how come a religious person can admit the hatred
towards God this is like a the worst sin
Richard: you could have
Cláudia: yes it's infamy it's an
Richard: information infamous, I guess
Cláudia: so, what I want to say is that the unconscious mind covers up, shelters things that consciously and rationally we would never ever admit. It's like disgusting, horrifying,
Richard: shocking. Repugnant.
Cláudia: Repugnant. Some thoughts and intentions we need to admit that are in our unconscious level. Yeah. So why am I saying this? Because in science that started with Charcot and Freud and some other psychiatrists, they, through
Richard: hypnosis,
Cláudia: they discovered a lot of things in our unconscious.
Another thing is that we all know all. This is an eternal evidence. Nobody, nobody enjoys, likes, loves seeing the truth. Nobody. Who in clear and sane, balanced mind would state that they love to see their mistakes or they love to see their pathologies, their sins. You can even say, I love to see in terms of, I feed my virtue to be strong enough to bear looking at my sins and mistakes. Even St. Augustine suffered a lot in seeing his sins.
Richard: His confessions were all about
Cláudia: that. St. Paul, the apostle, all the virtuous men in the planet suffered tremendously seeing their pathologies. And so this is the reality in all of us, all. And we have to remember what Jesus said, that he would, in the future, send his spirit to humanity to show all, to see everything. to see all the truth that they could not bear at that time when he came. It was such an enormous rejection they had to the truth that they killed him.
And we see this being repeated every day in our lives. Every day we hide the truth, we attack the truth, we lie, we attack other people because they are showing something in us that we don't want to see. So this is the biggest problem ever. We are enemies of the truth. So going a little bit further, we are enemies of God. And we get a part away from him, as St. John wrote, because he is light.
And in front of him, in front of God, we can see and we see our wrong and evil deeds. And we don't want to see this. So we stay away from God and from light.
Richard: Yeah, because Jesus said that he's going to send the Spirit to show us things that we're not prepared to see now. Do you think we're prepared to see those things now? I don't know.
Cláudia: If there is this science, it's because something is starting.
Yeah. We are starting a science that proposes and trains and deals and works with this, increasing the tolerance to admit as much truth as possible about ourselves and about the world.
Richard: So let's try to deal with that specifically. I was looking at a chapter from Dr. Kempi's new book, Sociotherapy and Exorcism. And he said that in his study of sociopathology, we are led to the inevitable conclusion that our planet is dominated by evil spiritual and human beings.
And then he said, it's important for us to realize that the rules we obey in all areas of life are demonic. That's a bomb, Claudia. And I think this is one of the reasons I think that people don't respond to Dr. Kepi's – the ones who respond, respond well. The ones who don't respond, don't respond because they don't want to let go of following these rules that are demonic in some way. In
Cláudia: 1986, Dr. Kepi wrote a book, such a beautiful book that brought you here, by the way, Liberation of the People, Pathology of Power, where he showed that the main and the sickest pathology ever in a human being is the desire for power.
Power to do what they want, power to do good and evil, power to decide whatever they want to do, to destroy, to deny, to lie, to cheat, to seduce, to corrupt, to be lazy,
Richard: to be
Cláudia: envious, to be arrogant, to – lust and avarice and gluttony to dominate and enjoy
Richard: it and enjoy it, even enjoy
Cláudia: it. So we want the power to do this. But the sickest power of all is the power we want to have over other people and over
other people's lives and over other people's accomplishments. And so we want the people or human beings want other people to serve them and not to be, to serve, like to be a servant, to become a servant for the people as Jesus taught. Because our nature is by essence, the essence of a human being is to be good. to do good for other people and for oneself as a consequence. But human beings don't want to do that,
and we are born with this evil desire to have power. Babies are very powerful in their new homes because they scream angrily because they want to do their wishes. They want their wishes, the family, the whole family, to live for them, to serve them. So every child, it's so beautiful, it's like an angel, but he has this inner flaw, the spiritual flaw. They don't want to be obedient to what is good. So they want to scream and they want to turn upside down all the habits of the house to serve them.
if a human being has this too much intense desire to be served and to step on other people. And sometimes envy even dominates because one has to see other people's qualities many times better than ours. They shine more than us. They are more capable than us. So this humbleness, it's not present in the pathology of power. Powerful people, they are people who wish too much for power. They dedicate their minds and their lives to escalate in this power game in society.
Richard: Climbing the ladder somehow.
Cláudia: Yes, and they do whatever necessary to come there. here we find the pathology of the powerful in society because if you want to be a powerful in society if you are young and you already think to become a powerful there is more pathology in you than the average so you will dedicate your life to corrupt yourself and corrupt other people to get there
Richard: yeah we mean corruption now not in the sense of taking money necessarily also
Cláudia: also too
But of corrupting these inner values that we have, right? Yeah, then competition, stepping in others, unloyalty. So these people that jumped to position of power and they got there, they are different from the average, the majority of other people because they are skilled in games for power and of power. And they are there to rule the people, to write the laws, to dominate their slaves and servants. They are there to exploit. They are there to take from others because of an envious and theomaniac upside-down attitude to take everything they can.
money, talents, they use people so they can become more and more powerful. And we see in our days, in present society, that there is a very small amount of human beings and secret societies and corporations that are ruling the world and exploiting. they wrote down many laws to ensure they would exploit the people. They would not let the people live in freedom and have their own good as they deserve because of this pathology of power. And the pathology of power is very much alike, the pathology of Lucifer and demons, very much alike.
Richard: So let's come back and talk about that in a moment, thinking with somebody else's head on the stop radio network back with our fascinating discussion of pathology of power and the link between that desire for power and what lucifer does on the planet is fascinating back in just a moment
Cláudia: since the beginning of all civilizations they had always manifested an enormous interest
and knowledge about the spiritual life and spiritual beings.
Richard: It's a world of ancient wisdom that modern science has eliminated.
Cláudia: The
arising philosophy of positivism prefer to base science on material happenings.
Cláudia: So, only what you can see and touch and feel is real.
Richard: Now, spirituality is being put back into science.
Cláudia: Imagine what would happen if people start considering this as a real thing. Not only is it a religious thing, but also a real scientific thing. Imagine what would happen.
Norberto Keppe, and there are many exciting applications of his work occurring in Brazil and numerous other locations around the world. This includes language classes, translation services, psychology sessions by phone or Skype, and the new energy solutions proposed by the Kepi Motor.
Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: This is Thinking With Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. Richard Lloyd Jones with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. And you were talking before the break. I'm always hesitant to take breaks sometimes because you get into these subjects that are so beautiful. About the link between the secret societies, the laws that have been created by the people in power against the actual people. I have a small example.
I was studying this in the class last night. Looking at a small case of a great painter named Rembrandt. from Holland, who created an enormously beautiful painting that we now consider a masterpiece called The Night Watch. It's a painting of a group of business people who were kind of a police force for the city of Amsterdam. When the military was out fighting the wars, they were there as a kind of militia to look after the city.
So he painted this, and he didn't want to paint a typical painting of just the guys standing in a row. So he created a painting where they were in action. And these were business people, some of them kind of fat and not really military guys, but he painted them in a heroic way. But the people who were paying for the painting didn't like it because it didn't show some of the faces as well as the others. So there was this whole
vanity thing so they refused to pay for it and his career began a big downslide after that and i'm making this connection because we treat uh people of value like this
Cláudia: the powerful destroy dirt
Richard: in the society the
Cláudia: powerful destroy they envy these people that are the artists the scientists people that are capable they they like they trigger tremendous envy in the people in power. So they want to destroy them. So
Richard: this is why they go after the middle class so much
in the world, because the middle class is the class that pays for everything in the society. I mean, the middle class is the ones working. They don't have the secret bank accounts in the Cayman Islands and Panama and Switzerland. The money that they make is invested back into the country for their kids' schools and clothes and food and all those things. So there must be an Enormous envy against the working people, which is why the laws don't support the development.
We see this in Brazil. It's
Cláudia: a horrible thing. But this is everywhere, Richard. You see in European community. The European Parliament does not represent the wish of the European peoples. They had a dream that they would have a united Europe with the European values. What they are having to handle now is that the laws that they built, they are to protect a small group of corporations and secret societies and powerful that want to suck also the European people, their intelligence, their values.
for their own service and it's money and money and money. And they are not like inhibited when they destroy absolutely the culture in all countries. They bring in vast like… Hordes of immigrants. Hordes of immigrants. We are not speaking here about the immigrants but we are speaking about the destruction of European culture and this is creating a counter-reaction. You see the Brexit. English people don't want to pay this price anymore because they are not working for England or for the English people.
They are working for these corporations and the bank system. And, you know, so they are like getting fed up. And they come with this history or this story that this is a fascistic attitude and this is – they are going
Richard: like – Stepping backwards in
Cláudia: time. Stepping back. But they know what is happening there as they know what is happening in the United States also. And in every part of this, at least the Western countries, they are waking up.
We don't know that much about the eastern countries, but there must be a lot that they don't write and they don't say in the news.
Richard: And we get very confused about this because we look at the movement for Brexit or whatever these kinds of movements are, and we see the pathology that these people have as well. And we say, oh, well, everything they're doing is wrong. But this represents people saying, wait a minute. Wait a minute.
Because the whole system has been set up, even the whole process of globalization, the process of bringing these trading blocks together, this is not done to benefit the people. It's sold as
Cláudia: a benefit. Just for their economic and social and political sick power. They don't get anything for them as human beings with that other than feeding this absolutely pathological. they're schizophrenic they are like delinquent psychopaths in power so we must see this reality and this is one of the realities that it's more painful to human beings this idealization
they think that the people in power they deserve to be in power they are more capable and not they are that they are there they got there because they are sicker and all their intelligence and energy they used for sick purposes. So this is one of the truths we reject the most. I remember in North America when Dr. Kepi wrote this book, some clients told him, Dr. Kepi, I can't bear reading the book. I can't stand.
I can't bear. I get so anguished. I get so confused and so anguished that I can't continue to know that all this is happening.
Richard: Yeah. There we are. Because if you make a – and I feel this sometimes now in our society. Let's talk honestly about this. I think that there's a – the willingness to play the game is what Dr. Kepi is talking about here, about how the planet is dominant. All areas of life are demonic.
Because if we play the game, to be successful in this game, we are condoning with a lot of pathological ideas.
Cláudia: And be aware. Be aware. If a person is successful in this socio-economic political structure, present structure, something is very wrong with this person.
Richard: Is this like selling the soul? Yes,
Cláudia: it's like selling the soul. It's like not being human anymore. It's shifting. It's putting upside down all the natural values, money above human beings, hatred and exploitation above love and cooperation and mercy.
Richard: Drugs above health.
Cláudia: Yes, and like the present
Richard: pharma, the big
Cláudia: pharma, it's one of these examples, big examples of a huge corporation that is built up to preserve sickness and death, most of it, and exploit people, taking their money, using this idea. You know, you have to buy drugs, you have to buy medical things so you can save your life. And
it's the opposite.
Cláudia: It's one of the first causes of death in humanity. These are the medical,
Richard: pharmaceutical treatments.
Iatrogenic disease. Yes, iatrogenic disease. And one thing, Richard, I want to put
Cláudia: in here to remember, one of the biggest ways this people in power found as a very effective mean to enslave the minds, enslave the minds. Because if you enslave a mind and a soul, you don't need to put anything to put a person like obeying you. You don't need change, you don't need anything. It's something that is controlled from within.
Richard: Yeah, the person follows without thinking about it.
Cláudia: From within. The way people perceive life and reality is being changed. The perception of life, it's more and more upside down. And one of the main techniques or technologies they are using is the microwave technology for cell phones and especially this 5G technology, which comes to be the most harmful and controlling method or technology to the planet, to control, to exploit the planet.
Richard: Because it not only destroys nature, it affects our mind, it affects the way we think.
Cláudia: Everything, and we
Richard: don't think anymore. This is the problem, we don't think and the
Cláudia: brain gets harmed, physically harmed. The harm of this technology, 5G technology is bringing, will be devastating.
Richard: They're pushing this a lot.
Cláudia: And you know something? This cell phone is like an energetic wall between us and our inner lives, the reality, our consciousness, us and truth, us and essential energy, us and God. and the transcendental world, the real world, it's like a barrier.
You don't live anymore. The true life, you live what you have inside a cell phone.
Richard: Yeah, virtual.
Cláudia: Fantasies, a virtual world. So this is one of the biggest problems ever. I
Richard: heard one of my students saying the other day, oh, but it would be so great, Richard, imagine you could put on a pair of glasses and it would be like you're really skiing in the Rocky Mountains in Canada. You could be back there skiing just by wearing a pair of glasses.
I said, but I don't want to go back in a virtual way. If I go back skiing, to go skiing in the Rocky Mountains in Canada, I want to put my skis on my feet and go down the mountain. I'm not going to do that anytime soon. But do you know what I mean? It's
Cláudia: like it's a totally different. It is a totalist slavery. You don't, you shut up. You don't need to travel. You don't need money to anything.
You don't need true things to live.
Richard: You don't need to talk to people. You
Cláudia: don't need to feel anything. You just stay inside this little machine that you need to buy and pay for it. You need to buy and pay that you are inside this little machine. And what are you complaining about? So just live or it's imagination instead of the true living, the true enjoyment
Richard: of life. It reminds me of this movie that was made recently with Bruce Willis, where the human being stays home in a kind of pod, sleeping, and they send out a robot to live for them.
Yeah. You know, it's like, no, wait a minute. I want to live my life. I don't want to myself
Cláudia: hold the list. And the problem is that everybody doesn't want to live anymore. People prefer to stay in this dream, dream, horrifying dream state. And being slaves, totally slavery. And this has a spiritual evil component really, really like on the top, the main cause. Because this is the biggest barrier between us and God, us and true life, us and vibration, a vibrant life.
Yeah,
Richard: there's resonance that Dr. Akepi talks about, right? Yeah. Resonance with something higher. You said one time in one of our radio programs that materialism is the break with the things that are really important, the faith and God and art and
Cláudia: culture. Why are you going to fight and work for something if you go inside a machine, a small machine like this, a cell phone, and you just imagine you are. You are not. You don't need to.
You just imagine. If you are sick, if you are a fat old guy, you can imagine, you can play like a young and
Richard: vibrant, strong teenager, basketball champion
Cláudia: of my high school. You can imagine, you can have these delirious attitudes. So you are an old person since you are young. Like teenagers are older already because they don't exercise anymore. So they're getting older and fatter and sicker because of this.
Richard: But we press on regardless. They've just finished the two-day Singularity University Summit here in Sao Paulo,
ripe with the smug fanaticism that our current technology holds the keys to our salvation. Robot farmers, apps, macrobiotic plant protein. We're lost in a digital mess. You know, the Kepi Motor was invited to a Singularity tech competition in San Francisco a few years ago. The only true innovation there? It didn't win. Kepi's work seeks to change the philosophical mindset, not just create new apps for doing everything without people. That's our program for this time. Talk to you next time on Thinking With Somebody Else's Head.
Cláudia: In the United States, there is a hidden government.
Richard: In 1985, Norberto Keppe published an explosive analysis of the pathology of power.
Cláudia: The new world order that they are trying to implant goes totally against ethical principles.
Richard: 28 years later, Liberation of the People is still the most relevant book available that exposes our inverted socioeconomic structure and who's responsible for it.
Cláudia: They are like sharks and you are like fishes in an ocean.
Richard: The people's reaction to Kepi's book was enthusiastic. The powerful hated it.
Cláudia: they were able to do a master cover-up.
Richard: Norberto Keppe's book was buried, and the warning went out to the media.
Cláudia: You are never, ever to mention the work of Norberto Keppe.
Richard: Now, Norberto Keppe's timely book is available again. For your free download of Norberto Keppe's Liberation of the People, go to liberationofthepeople.org.
Hi, my name is Thorne, and I love listening to the Stop Radio Network.
It helps me to start off my day in a really good mode.
Richard: The most relevant conversations in the world today are
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