Richard Lloyd Jones: It's a dream almost as old as mankind. A yearning for a return to a golden time. A flowering of all that's magnificent in the human soul. All religions guard the prophecy. Philosophies centuries of years old carry whispers of it in their writings. A time we lost once, but are on the verge of recovery. If, that is, we human beings solve our problems.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and today I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, the dream of the Americas. Our subject today is a beautiful one, an esoteric topic that we almost never hear about. But it's a story that's been carried forth for centuries. In the words of my guest today, a dream that's been passed like a torch from hand to hand by idealists throughout history.
Told in stories to children huddled around fires and fueled by passions that have shaped history. One day, the legends tell us, we will reach a much-cherished golden age. A new Jerusalem, as William Blake called it. A promised land of inconceivable riches, as the Italian Saint Don Bosco coined it. Norberto Keppe, whose work I base this program on, would say that that paradise exists now, as it always has, and that only our psychosociopathology stops it from appearing.
A psychosociopathology, by the way, that he has developed a scientific methodology to treat. With the purpose of, as he said recently, to lead the human being to the goodness for which he was created by helping him become conscious of the wrong path he has chosen so that he might return to the right path. Keppe's beautiful work, his life's work, will be discussed deeply and comprehensively at our World Conference of Analytical Trilogy this coming September 24th to 27th in San Diego.
You can get more information on that on our website, www.wcatus.org, or write me, rich at richjonesvoice.com. A few years ago, Dr. Cláudia Pacheco, Vice President of Keppe's International Society of Analytical Trilogy here in São Paulo, wrote an extraordinary book, The Secret History of Brazil, a product of a lifetime's interest and research in the movements of history destined to re-establish the kingdom of God on earth.
This research revealed a deep link between the Americas and the lost tribes of Israel, and she discovered that the dream of all humanity for a time of peace and prosperity, the third millennium, the fifth empire, call it what you will, had never died. And those dreams were alive still. She joins me on the program today. Cláudia, in your marvelous book, The Secret History of Brazil, you mention in there a lot about the, I think you would call it the end of times.
That every culture, every religion, every spiritual practice, every tribal culture, everybody has this same story in them, that there will be an end of times, and that time is coming around now, as I understand it. What can you say to sort of help us to understand what you mean by this?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Yeah. The first thing, Richard, is that I would rather call it a change of reality or a change of the situation in humanity, a shift in the way we live, the way we think, we act, and an energetic change.
And this energetic change has been prophesied, has been, sometimes people use this to threaten other people or to create a climate of just catastrophe and pain and suffering. But there is inside every culture, every religion, a notion that we are living in a transitory state. That this present life is not what it should be or it was meant to be. That we had previous, sometime in the past, a much, much better kind of life, society which was more divine, more fair, more human, more beautiful, richer, and not only speaking about spiritual wealth, but also material wealth, which we might call a golden age or a paradise.
You can find this in Indian cultures like Maya, Incas, and other Indian cultures. You can find this in the Judeo-Christian tradition, Islamic tradition, Buddhism, Hinduism. Everybody is expecting a change for better. Like to live here in this planet a golden life. Spiritual, material, golden life.
Richard: But this is not just a myth, is it, Cláudia? Because we don't have this in recorded history.
We certainly can't see our, at least in what the historians study, we can't see this paradise time. We certainly read about it in the Bible and every other religious, spiritual tradition, even tribal tradition has this story and its mythology. But isn't it just a myth? Is it real?
Cláudia: We have some data of these unorthodox historians, and they can find traces of a much, much wealthier and developed society before.
Some ufologists study this more in depth. And even the Bible has quotes about a kind of paradise here in this planet. But you know, Jones, about the universals, something that you have been studying here with your listeners. This is a universal concept. This is ingrained in our psychogenetic structure. Everybody misses something that they know existed in the past and that they look forward to live in the future.
Christians speak about redemption, and they say that we need to redeem our faults, what they call, some of them call sins, and go back to our previous state, which would be a divine state. We have some data, scientific data already when we study psychosomatics in the light of trilogy studies that can reinforce, give ground, scientific ground to this belief that our bodies, our organisms are not meant to live under this artificial difficult circumstances.
Social, psychological, material circumstances that we should
Richard: live in a paradise. Can you talk a bit about the evidence that's been found that supports this previous paradisal time?
Cláudia: You mean in the psychosomatic area? That
Richard: would be wonderful, but even in a concrete way there must be some evidence of that somewhere in our society.
Cláudia: You can find a lot of examples of this in the book Origin of Earth by André Keppe And he wrote some years ago, and he was very much inspired in his father, Norberto Keppe.
It's a nice book to be read. But Keppe, in his studies, he realizes now, and we do when we research on psychosomatics, that our cells, our DNA, they are supposed to live under other circumstances. Psychosomatic, psychoenergetic ones, that if we would live according to our genetics, we would have an immense lifespan. We could even say that we were supposed not to die even, because something is broken in our DNA, a lot is broken, a lot of garbage is in there, which is distorting, disturbing the functioning of our organisms.
Are
Richard: you suggesting this is not natural, then, that we have...
Cláudia: It's not natural. It's not natural. For instance, feeling pain, sadness, grief, this is not natural. This kills, kills people, destroys cells, destroys immune system. So, what is natural is to live in peace, in harmony, happy, in love, and, like, relaxed. It's impossible to live like this. In this present-day humanity.
Richard: So the fall, then, is a literal thing.
It's
Cláudia: a literal, yes.
Richard: It's not a mythological thing only.
Cláudia: Scientific data shows that there is such a kind of a fall. Yes, there is. But there is also many prophecies or predictions that one day humanity would be able to go back to this paradisal state.
Richard: The fall, then, let's just talk before we, because this story of how we're going to the paradisal state is throughout history, particularly European history.
And I want to explore that with you because I know that's a fascinating area of your study. But what is the, if we could characterize the fall psychologically, so it gets out of this mythology of eating the apple in the garden. What is the fall? How do you see that?
Cláudia: The fall is the denial of goodness in our lives, in our inner selves.
It's the denial of the divine. It's an attitude to use freedom to say no to life. Love. To hope. To goodness. To harmony. To beauty. It's the first step towards envy and inversion that Keppe quotes in his books and his works. But I think that we have a mission to accomplish, Richard. Humanity has a mission. And this mission has been to try to go back to this.
And a few individuals or a bunch of individuals, if you look in history and if you study the history of humanity under this perspective, you will see how many people, how many people lived and died for this ideal.
Richard: In fact, you talk about the progress of civilization being very linked to this driving force to go back.
Cláudia: Yes. The problem is that most of this progress has been accomplished in an inverted way, as Keppe says, in a wrong, inverted even way of physics, of medicine, of sciences, of economy, social life.
We have been developing in an upside-down direction. So, we got to this dead-end situation now. And this seems to be what people have been waiting for and also have been predicting and some people have been very much afraid of, which is this dead-end situation. Now, we developed such a pathological society and way of living that we have created turbulences, difficulties that are very difficult to overcome.
And if we don't change, Jones, and I don't think we will change by our own choices now, humanity. People who would like to change, that are ready to change, they don't have means to change. So we see that things went too far. So it seems that we will undergo very difficult situations before humanity wakes up and thinks, well, it's time to really rethink about our values and go back to goodness, beauty and truth.
Otherwise, life in this planet will be eliminated. Not by the wrath of God, as some people say, but because of our own inversions.
Richard: It's pretty easy to see that we've created this situation, not God. It has nothing to do
Cláudia: with Him. Some people say, well, this has nothing to do with human attitudes. It's not true. Energies are very much linked to human mentality actions and behaviors.
And if you want to consider that these changes are planetary changes and that they are they are involuntary changes that human beings have nothing to do with this, we could say okay, so if there are planetary changes we should now be mature, responsible enough to know how to cope with these planetary changes and how to do the best we can to protect innocent people from all these catastrophes that are just coming and overwhelming the planet.
So there is no excuse for that. We should now be coping differently with the situation. And
Richard: it's obvious that we don't want to do that because we're not taking any steps to correct
Cláudia: those things. People are interested in doing profits and making profits and war and weapons and atomic energy and polluting the planet. So it's totally mad what powerful people are continuing to do.
It seems that they are very much eager to destroy the whole planet.
Richard: Cláudia, let's talk about this search for the paradisal state that's happened throughout history. Because we see
Cláudia: the situation is terrible and we know that, but there is a beautiful story running through humankind. Yes, and there is this hope and this certainty. And we know that universals, Richard, are ingrained in our inner selves, not only because they are there, like as Jungians would say about this collective unconscious, or trans-types, as Keppe would say.
But there are notions about the future as well ingrained in human inner selves. We know that this will happen. This turn to the divine, turn to what is natural, to authentic, will happen.
Richard: Well, Keppe's work is totally based on that.
Cláudia: Totally based. So, considering this and starting from this point of view, we understand that some enlightened individuals lived, worked and died for this certainty that one day the planet would come back to be a garden of Eden.
And we have very important figures that did that, and people normally don't understand what was behind their accomplishments. Like, for instance, Columbus.
Richard: Christopher Columbus, yes. Yes. 1492, he sailed the ocean blue. We all know the story in North America.
Cláudia: Yes, but what you normally don't know is that Christophus Columbus did what he did based on prophecies.
Richard: No, we don't know that. And
Cláudia: we have a whole book of prophecies of Christophus Colombus.
And he followed Isaiah. He followed Daniel. He followed Jeremiah. And those ancient Jewish prophets that spoke about this golden day that one day humanity would live with God. And what they called Israel or Jerusalem, that one day this beautiful society would be built in the planet.
Richard: Which is not just Israel or Jerusalem. It would be the planet, the whole planet,
Cláudia: right? Yes.
But as Isaiah talked about the island and the big island and the islands as being this new Jerusalem, as a prophetic statement that in this planet there would be a place, a geographic material place where this would start and be. So Christophus Columbus went to find the new world. We are called the new world because they meant to build a new world, the new Jerusalem or these islands that the prophets...
So he
Richard: wasn't looking for a passage to the Indies to find tea and
Cláudia: soap? No, not Columbus, but the commerciants behind him that financed his travels. They were behind gold, material gold, not spiritual gold. Did
Richard: he use them to fulfill his... He had
Cláudia: to. He had to. He had to have this financing as many people have because people had the money. But he had the knowledge and the maps that he took from hand to hand, hand to hand, hand to hand since the Templars in the ancient Middle East where they kept the Temple of Solomon.
They had the maps of this golden place where there was not only an incredible environment, weather, nature, Indians, gold, animals, beautiful plants. And the gold of the Temple of Solomon came from America and mostly from Brazil. Well, Phoenicians came here at that time with the Jewish of those times. So they took all this, and in the Bible they speak about monkeys, and I don't know in English the word of these beautiful birds that we have here in South America.
And they brought all these things to Solomon's temple. And
Richard: so the Knights Templar were set up, what, 1100, something like that, 1100?
Cláudia: They took the temple from the Islamic people, and they found in the basements of these libraries all these ancient maps teaching how to get to this incredible place.
Richard: So Columbus was actually looking for… And
Cláudia: you know what this incredible place was?
No. This was America, and mostly Brazil.
Richard: This is a story that Brazilians don't know very well. We should know here in Brazil. So Columbus was looking for something specific. How was he linked to the Templars?
Cláudia: Columbus knew about the Templars because the Templars, they were very much active at his time, even though behind the scenes, behind Vatican, because the Vatican sort of finished with the Templars, but they continued with their knowledge.
And some authors, a few authors, claim that the knowledge of the Templars passes through the mind of the Templars. It's to the hands of the Jesuit society and Franciscan society. And Christophus Columbus was a Franciscan himself. So, all of them studied in Portugal and Spain. And they got the knowledge in those monasteries.
Richard: The Iberian Peninsula.
Cláudia: Yes. So, Spanish and Portuguese. They had a lot of knowledge because the Jewish came, the Judah tribe as they say came from Israel or that region running away escaping from persecution in this diaspora.
I don't know the word, it's
Richard: probably diaspora too, my religious
Cláudia: training is failing me miserably here. The Jewish had to spread and they went, they migrate to many places in Europe and one of the places they migrate was this peninsula Iberica, the very far west of Europe, where Santiago de Compostela is, Portugal and
Richard: Spain. Northern Spain, right.
Cláudia: So they brought a lot of knowledge with them, and maps.
Richard: It's so interesting to think that Brazil was discovered and Solomon knew about it, however many years ago Solomon was. So what are the other parts of this story in history? We know a little bit now about Columbus, but who are the other people who are driven by this, and what did they accomplish? What were they
Cláudia: looking for? You know, Richard, something very interesting, too, is that the Jewish that escaped to Bahia, Bahia is a state, a northern state of Brazil, and they came from Holland, and so they came and they migrated to Bahia.
And from Bahia, the Jewish that were born in Bahia, they were Brazilians, Jewish, they went to the north and they founded the New Amsterdam, which is New York. So New Amsterdam was founded by Portuguese and Brazilian Jewish that came from Europe and they migrated or immigrated to New York. So all these stories and histories are linked and they carry a lot of sacred and mysticism and esoteric
Richard: knowledge.
So the Judah tribe you were talking about was one of the tribes. There were 12 tribes of Israel,
Cláudia: right? Yes.
Richard: The Judah tribe was one tribe that migrated to this part of the Iberian Peninsula
Cláudia: you described. And then to South America.
Richard: And to South America.
Cláudia: So, we have many Jewish from Judah tribe in South America, as there are in Portugal and Spain.
Richard: And what is the Judah tribe? What was their focus?
Cláudia: The Judah tribe was meant to carry the spiritual heritage from their father, Jacob. And there is also something interesting about Ephraim and Manasseh, Manasseh tribes. Some historians, they say that, they claim that Ephraim tribe went to England and after, Manasseh and Ephraim came to North America. So, these two tribes, they got the heritage or the promise of material, physical richness.
And the Judah tribe, the wisdom, spiritual wisdom. And we see that the southern hemisphere of America is very much linked to spirituality. And the northern hemisphere is linked to material wealth and beautiful people, strong people. And there is a prophecy from Jacob that when Ephraim and Manasseh's tribes would accept and recognize the knowledge, the wisdom of Judah tribe, that they would get together and build the kingdom of God on the planet.
That Judah tribe would be humiliated by Ephraim and Manassas. But in the end, they would get together in order to accomplish the kingdom of God.
Richard: So we're seeing then in sort of more practical terms, the reconnection of the North and South America. Yes. Not
Cláudia: in a global free trade zone as we want to see, but there's a spiritual impulse behind it. Yes, a spiritual impulse to govern the material wealth.
So material wealth would be under the government of spiritual wisdom and not the other way around. So this is very strong. These prophecies are very strong because they are all together with Indian prophecies, Islamic prophecies, Buddhist prophecies that one day humanity would bend in front of spiritual wisdom and disinvert the situation.
Richard: And there are many people who've talked, historical people who've talked about that Brazil is this place where the spiritual
Cláudia: rebirth would begin, right?
And I see, Richard, some kind of tendency of North and South America getting together in order to bring this new philosophy, this spiritual philosophy, where the spiritual values, ethics, statics, goodness, truth, would govern economics and material life and all the other sciences. Where ethics, spirituality, truth would be like the crown of humanity and not the other way around.
Richard: Yes, Dr. Keppe talks about the essence of the human being, right?
Truth, beauty, and
Cláudia: goodness, aesthetics being in control of the material aspect of our lives. So, we don't know really what will happen, Richard, but what we can feel, and this can be even tangible, is that either we change and disinvert the values now or we will see a lot of trouble coming up and it will be even much more difficult for us to correct what will be left.
Richard: Yes, I think this is something that I've learned very much through Dr. Keppe's work is through the science of understanding human psychosociopathology we can see a way through now. It's not just a spiritual, mystical thing but a real practical disinversion, controlling envy, dealing with
Cláudia: pathology. Yes, absolutely.
Richard: This helps the energetic shift that needs to happen.
Cláudia: So even this, it's changing. So humanity is walking towards this evolution.
It's not natural. It's not like natural in terms of if you let it go, then. No, it's an enormous fight that good willing people are doing in order to bring back humanity to the real reality.
Richard: Yeah, I think this is a very key point, Cláudia, that we can't just sit back and be in our macrobiotic diets not to put those things down.
But
Cláudia: it's a much more dynamic state than just... Sure. Even religiously speaking, even in terms of religion, miracles would never happen like this, for instance. So we sit and we wait Jesus coming back. So if Jesus would come back now, it would be a horror because many people would kill him back again. So it's not the problem with God. The problem is with us.
So we need to change. We need to change. Even if we want to live with God and have him here back, or if some people would expect this to happen, there would be or there must be a big change in our behavior here. Yeah,
Richard: there's a real science now that can help us to analyze this, to investigate it, to study it inside ourselves, in our society.
The science of psychosociopathology, psychosocioecology, where we can actually determine what it is that's going on and begin to make those changes. This is Norberto Keppe's science and why we sit here in these podcasts week after week after week trying to help people, why Dr. Keppe does programs week after week after week, why he writes one book after another.
Cláudia: And you see the difficulties?
How people are set in their inversions And they resist, resist, resist. Resistance towards truth, towards life is present in every human being. And most of them are unconscious of this deadly choice, the choice to destroy. So,
Richard: in a way, what we're doing, if we begin to resonate in this term with these ideas of Dr. Keppe, is we're beginning to feed this deep desire in the human being to walk back in the direction of God now, to the ultimate happiness, to reclaim this kingdom that we have abandoned.
You
Cláudia: know, it's like building a cathedral or carrying a flame and passing by one hand to the other, generations after generations. We are continuing. This effort, sacrifice, dedication of thousands of people that in the past did what they did in order for us to have more wisdom, a chance to be better, to live in justice, and to correct, to have a better life, a better future.
So it's a kind of continuation. It's not something that was discovered now and there are discoveries being made now that will be absolutely essential for this shift but it's like a continuation a result a development of this dream and this would be called the true dream of america's or the true dream for what the founding fathers wrote or developed this incredible constitution that based what used to be United States of America.
And the first letters they sent to Europe back, telling what they found in America, all of them mentioned the true paradise. They were back to paradise. They found the place where Jerusalem, the true Jerusalem would be built. So what we see today is that all those idealistic people that went to the North America and to the South America and Central America, that their idealism was like buried or almost buried in all this corruption, greed, lack of fraternity in humanity, in human behavior.
But I said almost because it seems that now there are some flowers starting to show up.
Richard: To break through the concrete.
Cláudia: To break through the concrete. And we see this hope being very close to become reality.
Richard: We have lots of work to do first, of course, to get ourselves in place to do our part to help this beautiful dream be realized. And that, Norberto Keppe's work can help us do.
And that's what we're all about here in this program. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
