Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. Welcome to our 20th Thinking with Somebody Else's Head program on the Positive World Radio Network. Nice to have you listening. I should also let you know we've got a Facebook page. My good friend up in Edmonton, Will Lajeunesse, keeps that up to date. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head and Facebook should join us there.
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Well, why are we in such a state? There are lots of inner reasons for that, amply explained in Norberto Keppe's immense body of work. But perhaps more seriously, we have a power issue, and I don't mean hydro versus nuclear.
The evil man does, going behind the curtains of power today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Well, we can't say we haven't been warned about the dangers of power. Power corrupts, we've all heard. Power went to his head. Who hasn't witnessed that in action? Samuel Butler wrote, authority intoxicates. The fumes of it invade the brain. And make men giddy, proud, and vain.
The Founding Fathers themselves realized well the dangers and built safeguards into the Constitution. But somehow, power has gotten way out of control. And I'm not talking just about Libya and Egypt and Liberia. Our First World democracies are under siege at the moment, too. And mostly, we don't get that. We can't believe, as Shakespeare put it, that deceit could dwell in such a gorgeous palace.
But we have been deceived. Partly out of our own greed and destructive ambition that has led us to close our eyes to the betrayal because we secretly wanted the same thing, but mostly out of the fact that the powerful have worked their nefarious manipulations behind the curtains. Two scientists have fought valiantly and tirelessly to expose this. And more than just pointing out the sickest examples, which is what mostly happens with other authors, so we put that bad guy away and go back to sleep under the false illusion that now it's okay.
Drs. Keppe and Pacheco have worked to expose the rot in the desire for power itself. Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco is with me today to explore this more. I was looking at your incredible book, The American Drug Multinational. This is a bomb. Yes, it is. In this book, you say, we have to be careful of the criminals, highly dangerous, who have infiltrated communities and public bodies, such as the government, the legal system, the police, the churches, the schools, mainly in positions of economic and public power.
They are much more dangerous than the drugs which they distribute. They are the psychotics and psychopaths described in the book Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power, Keppe, Pacheco, and others, who act like demons to destroy civilization. What is the purpose for raising this today?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: In the United States, we understood 20 years ago or more that the drug cartel and the drug business has been kept as something underground in order to achieve the goals that those people in power want to achieve.
Because if you make something legal, things will come to the surface. People have to pay taxes for what they sell, and you will know who is selling what, who is producing what, and who is consuming what. And we would have chances to deal openly, consciously about a huge problem. And you cannot consider a problem that has no participation from people in the police, in customs, in the charge, in the head of banks, in everywhere.
Richard: They show in the film American Gangster, they show actually bringing the raw heroin in the caskets of the dead soldiers from the Vietnam War out of Thailand during the early 1970s. It's shown right there in the movie, so it's pretty clear this is happening. There's a collusion somehow with the powerful.
Cláudia: Absolutely, absolutely. Only stupid people don't see this. And if they would open the accounts, really open the accounts of all this money that is laundered in United States banks. Not only United States, now in all over the world, Bahamas. And when they speak in French, la plaque tournante, where people launder the money and all that money goes.
So everything is a big casino, and the money that comes from drugs and the trafficking of arms is huge, huge all over the world. So this is a traffic of death. And people are not only killing very young people. They sell drugs in front of schools. They put people under this toxic dependency very early, in early stages. So, one of the most important things is that they want, as they did in those times where mafia dominated Chicago, when the alcohol was forbidden.
Prohibition. Prohibition. So, the same thing happens now.
Richard: Do you know there are a lot of Canadians who made a lot of money during prohibition? They were shipping alcohol over the
Cláudia: border. So, now they're doing
Richard: it out of drugs, which is even more effective. I just wanted to say, Cláudia, when we're talking about this, I can always feel, because, you know, I've been here in Brazil nine years now. But when I first came, this idea that there was such an organized level of corruption in the power structures of the first world was, to me, was hard to understand.
I sort of knew there was something strange, something was not good, something was rotten, but I didn't understand the extent of it. And I remember a conversation you had with a Dutch guy here in Brazil fairly recently, where he was saying, but there's so much corruption in Brazil, there's so much drug trafficking going through Brazil and going through Colombia, and we've got to stop the drug trafficking there.
And you said, but wait a minute, where are the drugs going? They're not being used by Colombians. They're not even being used much by Brazilians. Those drugs are going through those ports. And going where? They're going to Rotterdam, through the ports of Holland. And so this is important. The first world really needs to wake up to what's going on in this question of pathology of power.
Cláudia: And when you speak about waking up, here comes the core of the problem. Because in the 60s you saw like generations of Americans, north Americans, south Americans, Europeans being waking up, wakening up, wakening up to to what they have been living and dying for. And they decided that they were not anymore willing to go to war in Vietnam or anywhere else in the country, just to fight for the economic, financial interest of the powerful.
So when this started, people got afraid. People in power got really afraid because this wave, energetic wave of consciousness, was really threatening their pillars. And so people were starting to realize, as Keppe puts in his books, that democracy is something different from capitalism. Leaving exploitation and speculation free, this freedom doesn't mean democracy. Democracy is a totally different thing. It's freedom of consciousness.
It's freedom of rights, human rights. It is, as Roosevelt said, and where Michael Moore put in his last film...
Richard: Capitalism, A Love Story. Wonderful
Cláudia: documentary. Good documentary and where we see Dr. Keppe's ideas well described, well like put in.
Richard: Implemented.
Cláudia: It's incredible how he, like he got the spirit. And so there he is showing that Roosevelt at his time already, he wanted, his wish was to put into like a new constitution, new Bill of Rights in the American Constitution, where all the basic things, human, things where human rights should be guaranteed for every citizen.
This
Richard: was powerful for
Cláudia: me. Independently from race, creed, age, whatever. And this almost happened, but he died before that.
Richard: He died a year before. He proposed that and then died a year later. And that proposal never got implemented and it was even well before Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement was far before they enacted civil rights legislation in the United States with Kennedy and Johnson, far before that.
Cláudia: It wasn't Roosevelt's wife who helped to write like the international universal bill of human rights in Geneva in UN. His wife helped to write down this bill and this is universal, this is universal, but it never was never implemented anywhere in the in the planet. So when people started to like to say oh come on. We have these ideals. We had a president that brought this into light.
We now are questioning about our rights, civil rights, and human rights inside this country. So people in power started to research how to control people without necessarily putting them inside a prison, arresting them. And this was something that they tried to do in the campus, in Berkeley and New York, Columbia University, the most advanced centers of civil rights movements, California, New York, and Paris.
So they were upset because they should put in prison many, many intellectuals, writers, young people, artists, and the thing was growing all over in Latin America. They implemented a dictatorship, a military dictatorship at the same
Richard: time. In every country.
Cláudia: In every country. So this was at the same period of history.
They
Richard: took away democracy in Iran, which had a democratic government. The CIA destabilized the democratically elected government in the 50s, and the Shah of Iran was the result, and the Ayatollah Khomeini was the result, and now we have this mess in Iran caused by destabilizing these governments.
South America has managed to maintain, but Central America is still very, very destroyed
Cláudia: by that
Richard: CIA activity there.
Cláudia: So at the same time, they implemented a plan to imprison human consciousness and minds. So they would do like a brainwashing to direct human beings inside their minds, the way they think. So they would be like imprisoned, innerly imprisoned. So they would not have this difficulty to arrest them, to fight, because fighting physically with thousands of people would require, a revolution is always very difficult to hold back.
And normally results will come from those revolutions. But if you control the minds, it's so easy because people don't threaten anymore any governments. And they understood at those times with the Blue Bird Project in the
Richard: 50s with the
Cláudia: CIA, working with Lilly Pharmaceutical Company and other pharmaceutical companies and some psychiatrists that were bought by them. They realized that if you combine some techniques of brainwashing and influencing minds through electromagnetic devices, through subliminal propaganda and teaching, and through marketing, and those many, many instruments and tools they developed to subliminally influence minds, combined with drugs, this would be the most effective way to numb the consciousness of people in the world.
Richard: The 20th century is the rise of public relations, and public relations is directly related to the rise of democracy. They were terrified of democracy, the powerful. They wanted a way to control it. So public relations, controlled by the corporations, by the government, is the way to influence people. And it's right there in the beginnings of public relations. Edward Bernays, the nephew of Freud, was the founder of public relations.
And it's right there at the beginning. There's an intelligent few that need to control the thinking of the mass population. And
Cláudia: they made it. They did it. They did it.
Richard: So now we
Cláudia: don't even, well, we don't know how to deal with this situation because people got hooked. They are being slaved by this technique.
Richard: Let's include drugs here. It's not just the cocaines and the heroines.
Pharmaceutical drugs. Yeah, which is
Cláudia: much more the majority of people, right?
Richard: If you look at people in America now, I mean, good heavens, there are two or three prescription drugs each person.
Cláudia: And even children are prescribing drugs. So people, if they start taking Prozac or antidepressants, they will never get rid of those drugs anymore. So they will be hooked in this, and their brains will not work properly.
Because we need to work with both sides of the brain, and our consciousness must be lucid. We must have this flux of energy, natural flux of energy. And those chemicals, they impede the synapses of the neurons in the brains. So people don't think anymore. They cannot think properly anymore. They don't even dream anymore. When they are asleep, very seldom they dream. And dreaming is a very important aspect for mental balance.
So the thing is very serious, Jones. But we hope that the energy of consciousness will be always stronger than any anything else, and
Richard: the energy of consciousness is what we're all about. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network, we are back in just a moment. Welcome again, you are listening of course to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're on the Positive World Radio Network, we're on our site healing through consciousness.com.
We have books, we have tapes, we have resources all over the place, Dr. Keppe and Dr. Cláudia's TV program actually runs in 23 countries, 25 countries? Do you
Cláudia: remember? You know, I don't remember. I
Richard: don't remember. It's a few countries.
Cláudia: Yeah.
Richard: In six or seven different languages. And so there's lots of information out there. And I think here, Cláudia, we might just begin to put a focus on what's happening in the world and what we saw in Rio de Janeiro just last week.
A young man went into a school there and killed 12 young students in what was obviously a psychotic crisis, terrible. It's kind of shocked Brazil because this is, I don't think this has ever happened, has it, in a school?
Cláudia: In a school, no. But lately, there has been some cases in Brazil of people shooting groups since there is all this publicity done by TV, Internet, media, about all the shooters in the world.
So this gives more like...
Richard: Yeah, impetus. People get an idea, oh, there's a good idea. Yeah, yeah. In their psychotic state.
Cláudia: Imitation. Yeah. A mechanism of imitation. So they find it so beautiful to have all these lights and this glamour around all the news and everybody talking about them. So they get excited with the possibility of accomplishing their delirious of grandeur, grandiosity.
Richard: But what struck me, Cláudia, and it always strikes me when these things happen, is how we focus on this kid who was a young man, 21 or something, who was obviously having a psychotic crisis, believed that he was pure and they were impure and all of these kinds of deliriums that enter. But we don't give any attention to the regular psychotic crisis that we see around us every day.
These wars, this idea of making torture acceptable. Dictatorships.
Cláudia: Now, for instance, have you seen this in Costa do Marfim? If you look at the face of this ex-leader that
Richard: was arrested, He had like this infantile kind of face when
Cláudia: a dictator is caught. They are like abnormal children. They have this cara de infantil. Yeah,
Richard: infantile face, like a child.
Cláudia: Pathological, like kids, like a big kid.
That, oh, what is happening? What have I done? So this is another facet of the psychotic, very infantile. You
Richard: can see this very clearly in a film that was released a couple of years ago called The Last King of Scotland about Idi Amin. You can see this kind of... Double. Oh, my gosh.
Cláudia: They can
Richard: be like
Cláudia: demons, so harsh on other people.
And then in a sudden, when they are caught, they behave like children. Like children.
Richard: And they swing between this aggressive, arrogant, cruel aspect. And it's super charming. It's like they turn a switch, you know.
Cláudia: And inside their homes and their private lives, they have these children's habits preserved, like sometimes sucking the fingers or having neurotic habits, like weird habits, like dressing as females or dressing like babies.
Sucking
Richard: their thumb.
Cláudia: And tomando mamadeira.
Richard: Eating? Eating
Cláudia: like mamadeira, the milk
Richard: where you
Cláudia: put the milk. Ah,
Richard: the nipple, the little nipple. This thing. Yeah, the bottle,
Cláudia: the nipple. Well, you have the bottle with the little nipple on it, and they suck on this. They drink milk like
Richard: this way, and sometimes they suck the
Cláudia: breast of a woman as if they were babies.
So they have many, many, many habits that are like children. And they perform, they behave, they speak like children, they change. Their voices and they want to be seen and treated by their women or their lovers as a child. So they very frequently behave like children inside their private homes. And this is another facet, an infantile, pathological infantile behavior fixated in the previous years of development.
Richard: Right, when they were just little kids. And this kind of psychotic dialogue we hear all the time. We don't catch it. And because we think that the psychotic is only the guy who goes to the school and kills 11, 12 kids, that's the psychotic. But we're not perceiving it in our society. I was watching an interview today about nuclear power. There's a congressman in the United States named Ron Paul who has many good qualities.
He speaks a lot against the U.S. federal bank and he's written a book about it, so he has a really good side to him, but he's a big fan of nuclear power. And in this middle of this situation with Japan he's talking about how nuclear power, the reaction to the the problem is overblown, bigger than it really is. And then he said, listen to this, I want to see if you can think, this is kind of like a psychotic comment.
Nuclear power is very dangerous but it's also the safest form of energy we have.
Cláudia: Well, what is this,
Richard: Cláudia? This is like, this is
Cláudia: delirious. It's very dangerous
Richard: but it's the safest form of energy we have. How can you put those two
Cláudia: together? Well, Richard, here you see a form of delirious thoughts and reasonings, like totally outside of reality. But you can also see that every time there is a more severe case of psychosis or stronger neurosis, there is always an ethical component involved in the situation, meaning lack of ethics.
So, all psychotic has delinquent behaviors and intentions. So, there is no possibility of having a psychotic without traces of psychopath, psychopathy? Yeah,
Richard: psychopathy. Yeah, psychopathy.
Cláudia: So, there is a very strong and straight relationship between lack of ethics and psychosis. But on the other hand, Richard, as Freud saw it and as Keppe emphasizes, there is not such a thing as a balanced, a true normal human being.
There is no difference in quality but in quantity of pathology amongst us. So the difference between a regular and more balanced person in society and a psychotic inside an institution is the degree, the amount of pathology he does not control in himself. Because the tendencies, the desires, the impulses are very, very the same. But the difference is that when you are more like normal, more ethical, you perceive the difference between what is good and bad, what is real and unreal, and you don't pursue that false, that lying kind of living, living in a lie as psychotic do.
So they accept lying to themselves and to the others, and they end up by not perceiving anymore what is lie, what is true, what is reality, what is fantasy. So they don't see that anymore.
Richard: Yeah, we cross the line, right, as they say. Yeah, we go too far. So Dr. Keppe talks a lot about the necessity for us to understand about the human will because we have the idea that we're free to think whatever we want.
What you're suggesting is we're not. If we go too far in crazy magical thinking, we become crazy.
Cláudia: We become psychotic. We can get into a severe crisis and never go outside of it anymore Because then we go to a doctor and they start giving you medicines, drugs, psychotropic drugs, and then you don't, you cannot recover anymore. Impossible. Impossible to recover.
Richard: Because Dr.
Keppe was just reading this morning as I was preparing in his book, Liberation of Knowledge, where he said that psychosis is like a permanent fight against consciousness. And this is something we don't understand very well. That we have like a frame, an internal frame of ethics, of goodness, that's been implanted inside. So when we go too far away from that essential good nature, in our thoughts, in our actions, obviously this is psychosis.
Cláudia: And this can only happen in human beings, because nature, it's all limited. Nature is all ruled by laws, natural laws. But they don't go against those laws. Animals don't, generally. Only if they are under influence of neurotic human beings. Of human beings, yes. But trees
Richard: and nature only
Cláudia: reacts against human beings' attacks. Otherwise, everything in nature, everything that exists, everything, all beings by themselves, are limited by beauty, truth, and goodness.
Richard: The natural state. Yeah. And we who have taken it upon ourselves to try to be greater than that have created an enormous society that, in a way, kind of supports.
Cláudia: You know, Richard, here comes a question. While I was coming here, I was walking to meet you here in your studio. By the way, it's so beautiful and pleasant here. You don't imagine, those who are hearing us now, listening to our conversation, they don't imagine where Richard Jones works.
He is planted in one of the best neighborhoods of São Paulo and in the back of this beautiful house where Millennium has a school of language and therapy. Behind that, there is a small house all surrounded by plants and flowers and birds. And it's like paradise. And then you have this small house with a beautiful door, wooden door. And then there is this big Richard Jones waiting for me in the door and waving for me when I come and receiving me with open arms and cheering me when I come.
And then we have this very comfortable studio here, very silent, sort of being outside the world, the evil world here. And we have chances to better communicate with you. So while I was walking down here from the clinic, which is very close.
Richard: Also very beautiful.
Cláudia: Also very beautiful with garden and birds. I was wondering, Freud spoke a lot about sexual problems. Melanie Klein followed him too much I think, even though he considered envy a lot in her work.
She also considered too much sexual theories and sexual problems, putting the problematic or the psychotic state in incenses. And this is too naive. It's even stupid. Because now that after this revolution, this sexual revolution, you can see that everybody does whatever they please in terms of sex. And nothing became better in terms of pathologies. On the opposite, people get more anguished, they get more depressed, they get panic attacks, and they start killing other people, and they steal and they do wars in the same way.
So the problem was not resolved. So we have to consider really the revelation as Keppe did in his work. Because Freud always tried to deny the existence of a transcendental life, a spiritual life. He never considered that. And he tried to deny this and to prove the opposite. But as Keppe saw it, and I wonder, as you put, when we try to be bigger than God even.
But if we consider that there is a God, so do you agree or do you don't agree? Do you accept or you do not accept? Because if we do accept the existence of God, we have to see everything under another perspective. And not considering that, if I accept that God exists, I'll go to the church on Sunday services and I pray some prayers.
And I ask forgiveness of my sins, or I do just to give some alimony to someone. Alimony?
Richard: No, you, what do we call this? Ismola.
Cláudia: You give money. Yeah, so you help some poor people, or you help something here or there. But my god, if god really exists, as many people know deep down, even if they deny that there is a creator, so everything changes perspective.
Yeah, okay, we're
Richard: coming back. Hold that thought because we just need to take a quick break. Uh, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, we're on the Positive World Radio Network. I'm rushing because I can't wait to get back. Back in a minute. We are back on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, the Positive World Radio Network. We're streaming and on our website healing through consciousness.com.
I'm totally in enchanted with what you're talking about. When we have conversations about the creator, dr Keppe in his book liberation said that any, any accomplishment that anybody has is only the letting happen what already existed. In other words, we can't even take credit for our accomplishments because they're in us already to create. And this program is an exact example of that, Cláudia.
I've had the idea for this program since I was 26 years old. I've wanted to create a program talking about the way human beings think. I created a small program on a university radio station in my hometown when I was a young man. I had no capacity intellectually or knowledge-wise to do it, But I've had this desire to do a program like this since I was young.
Cláudia: So maybe you were in touch with eternity and you were outside time and space. Oh, interesting. So you knew before the time came that you would do this in the future. Right. So you were preparing yourself to do what you were doing now.
Richard: Exactly. And it's like I can't take credit for this because this is who I am, which doesn't come from me.
And so, then we enter this whole fascinating conversation.
Cláudia: So, following this idea that I quoted in the other segment, if God really exists, and He does, so we cannot consider God just inside the churches and in institutional religions. We have considered God as the creator, as the source of everything that exists in the universe. We have to consider God as the person who maintains, who gives the maintenance of everything that we need and that exists, maintaining with his energy all beings in the universe.
Imagine my god, and he keeps, he
Richard: keeps giving his energy to preserve all
Cláudia: this happening and going on. So we are speaking about a creature or a creator creature. We are creatures, but we are speaking about a being that has an enormous amount of infinite intelligence, infinite love, infinite capacity, infinite perception, infinite, whatever infinite you can imagine, infinite beauty, and we spend our lives denying this relationship and his existence.
This is a huge, huge arrogance and huge sober.
Richard: Well, sober doesn't exist. Like a pride.
Cláudia: It exists.
Richard: In English? Yes. I'd never seen the word sober.
Cláudia: Maybe you can see superb, but superb in positive terms and not in negative, but there is.
Richard: Superb exists, yes. It's sort of like better than.
Cláudia: Yeah. So there was a misunderstanding about the word soberbo because it comes from Latin and you must have in your language.
But it changed. In English, it changed meaning to something that is superb. Yeah, incredible. Incredible. Incredible, beautiful, the best, but not that. This idea of being superb is something that came from this pathology of the previous beings and even angels that they wanted to be superb, meaning they wanted to be above God. Yeah. And how come me will obey another being? Or how come me, the biggest and the best, will have to accept that I'm just a creature and that I don't own the credits of what I do.
So I'm not the creator. I cannot have control of anything. I'm not the controller in all. This is a specific problem in English-speaking countries, wanting to have control of everything. And this is delirious because we don't have any control of anything. We control in terms that we can accept or we can deny our lives and the reality of things. This is the control we can have.
But what is the control? We don't have any control. So if we consider this under this perspective, our situation, Richard, we should live our lives, if we want to be realistic, We should live our lives much, much closer to God because we are much, much closer to Him than we imagine. This separation is just a denial, a psychological denial. And the more we do this, the more arrogant we are, even if we quote God all the time, even if we see ourselves as righteous.
Because Satan quotes the Bible better than anyone all the time. So having this sensation that I'm special, I'm better than anyone, is a sign of psychosis. It's a psychotic nucleus and everybody has this. But some people, uh-oh, this is not true, but others, they think at least in this way I'm special, like these killers. Serial killers have this idea, I'm special, I have a special task, god gave me a special task to, to perform.
I'm a chosen one, I'm the best of all, all the, all those people are dirty, all those people are sinners, so it's, it's my mission to make justice. I'm the god who will do
Richard: this. Exactly what this boy was
Cláudia: saying. And you can see this also in politics. I'm, I will be the best mayor, I will resolve all the problems of this city, I'll be the best president, I'll be the ruler of the world, I'll create the new world order, like those rockefellers and rothschilds and bilderbergers and trilateral companies.
They are psychotic in wondering, like brzezinski, like all those who, who wonder, oh, I really know more than anyone about politics. I'm the one, and my group are the ones oriented by me, and we will make the rule the true rule of the world.
Richard: We're the elite. We are the elite. And
Cláudia: the others are the useless eaters. Yes, like the cancer of society that must be killed in the
Richard: same way these serial killers think.
There is no difference between a person who starts a war and a serial killer. There is no difference. In fact, it's worse.
Cláudia: And they have all the excuses. It's worse in some way because they want even profits from this.
Richard: Just to show you how crazy it gets and how psychotic these conversations are, I was looking at Barack Obama's acceptance speech for the Nobel Peace Prize, Cláudia, which is an extraordinary document in the sense of it's kind of unbelievable to see what's being said here.
And one of the first things he says is, I don't bring with me a definitive solution to the problems of war. So that means I'm probably going to continue to have war. And he said, he's talking about the notions of a just war. Okay, right away you know that that's kind of a magical thinking, delirious thinking. And he said we must begin by acknowledging the hard truth that we will not eradicate violent conflict in our lifetimes.
Well, this is a guy accepting a peace prize and saying we will not eradicate conflict. It's impossible to eradicate, that's the nature of the human being. So we enter this psychotic mind again. And when I read this with my students, and then we consider Dr. Keppe after, and also Martin Luther King to give some reason, people get very confused. It's very confusing.
It throws us out of
Cláudia: it. And you see that his actions are never out of defense, really. Nobody's invading United States. Because if you need to defend your country, if anyone invades, an army invades your country, so it's a... Self-defense. But his actions has been always invading other countries and finding excuses to do this.
Richard: So from Dr. Keppe's book, Liberation of the People, he says here, the second important factor to consider here, what he's saying, the first factor is that social laws are generally megalomaniac and narcissistic, sick laws.
He said the second factor to consider here is the pathological desire to live out one's delusions of grandeur. He's giving a profile of the powerful here. For those who are not familiar with psychopathology, it's expedient to explain that there is no qualitative difference between the person who exhibits serious mental imbalance and the human being who's considered sane. If a person is not careful, he can easily enter the path to illness.
It must be pointed out, however, that only those who are sickest choose this path. He's analyzing the situation we see in the world today, isn't he?
Cláudia: Yes, and he
Richard: has been doing this for several years and even some
Cláudia: decades. But we see slowly, little by little, people wakening up Because we see the influence through the books, through the radio programs, TV programs, and through many, many means that we work very hard to spread this knowledge, the discoveries of Keppe.
And for several decades already we have been doing this. So his influence is like...
Richard: Infiltrating.
Cláudia: Infiltrating,
Richard: right. Infiltrating. It's seeping in. And the reason nobody in the major media or the governments
Cláudia: still recognized this, it's because he points out, he puts the finger exactly on the wound, in the psychological wound of every person in power, and even persons in, like, common people.
So he puts the finger inside the pathology, the critical pathology of each one of us.
Richard: The psychotic nucleus, you call it.
Cláudia: The psychotic nucleus of each one of us. So it's not, if you imagine, Richard, that we have to give up. In order to be balanced, we must give up any intentions of being really special in something. Because this idea of being special is already a kind of arrogance or sober, as we say in Portuguese.
But there is a beautiful study of St. Thomas Aquinas, where he says that each, even Alberto Magno in the beginning, in the past, another saint and theologian spoke about
Richard: this. Magno was Albert Magnus.
Cláudia: Very, in the 5th century, more or less. 5th century. And 5th century. And then Thomas Aquinas developed this idea much better, saying that as a being was created by God with his own capabilities and...
Richard: Capacities?
Cláudia: Capacities, talents and virtues. One cannot be without those qualities because they are the being. But we can deny them and transform them in sins and vices. And he says that all vices and sins are a denial, a distortion of some virtue, of a virtuous impulse. So, considering this, we would say that we are really attracted to glory. We love glory. We really want glory.
But it's not our glory that we are supposed to have. We would enjoy much better being glorious in god, with god, and because we don't want this out of ambience and arrogance, we want to be glorious ourselves and then
Richard: outside. So
Cláudia: my
Richard: god, I don't want to
Cláudia: share this glory. What a ridiculous situation. And all these ridicule behaviors to start and going up to people considering themselves as jesus christ and reincarnation of saints and kings and special people.
So we can only be satisfied and joyful inside the glory of God with God. So we can take advantage, we can share, we can resonate with His glory. But if we want to be separated and denying Him and having our own glory, then we fall in the ridicule.
Richard: We can enjoy the beautiful sunset, but we can't create the beautiful sunset.
Cláudia: Yes, and then you can also be in front of the sunset and saying, I cannot enjoy it.
How
Richard: come? And trying hardly to relax and to listen to a music and trying, trying hardly to resonate with that. And then you cannot because you put a denial in front of you and the person who is giving that to you, a being that is giving that to you, which is? We're coming right back, don't go anywhere, it's a fascinating today. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, we're back in just a moment.
I don't even want to take a pause between our shows here, Cláudia, I want to just keep going because it's, you're talking about something. We're back, by the way, thinking somebody
Cláudia: else's on
Richard: the Positive World Radio Network. I love this conversation. Yes, I really love this conversation. Yes,
Cláudia: and even you know something that, uh, when we are able to, to have a friendship, a relationship of affection in god, so there is a friendship in god, with god, this friendship is like then it's superb, like then it's
Richard: superb, because then you
Cláudia: increase the vibration, you increase the vibration of the affection, and, and this friendship becomes much bigger than just a small human friendship.
Richard: This is so fascinating because all the work we do here, I feel exactly this, but I never could put it into those words. You beautifully described it. Inside the context of doing something good, beautiful, and truthful, something for God, everything has more meaning. Everything has more, it's more saboroso, you say
Cláudia: in Portuguese, It's tastier, flavorful. It's more exciting. It's more stimulating. So imagine if we do this a little bit and we get so excited.
Imagine if we would accept God as we were supposed to accept. We would be in heaven. Ecstasy. Ecstasy. As Thomas Aquinas puts it.
Richard: Did he talk about that?
Cláudia: Yeah, ecstasy. Yes, yes. Ecstasy.
Richard: The ecstasy of this relationship.
Cláudia: Yeah. And the meaning of the creation, the meaning of the creation of human beings is exactly this, living in ecstasy for eternity, loving God and being loved by Him.
Richard: This is not just a myth then, Cláudia. This
Cláudia: is a true reality. And if we don't accept this, we fall in neurosis, psychosis and illnesses, all sort of illnesses. So you see, Jones, it's not a matter of religion. Every corner of life, every step, everything that you live in your everyday life, God is there. So God is everywhere. God is in society.
God is in nature. God is inside of us. God is. God is. And we are in God. We cannot be outside of God. And this is the torment of the demons, because they want to live in another universe, a parallel universe, and they cannot. So they are in denial all the time, like being in hell, being in torment. So I think that even religious people can't imagine how it would be to live with God.
Some of them, a few of them, a percentage, maybe a small 10%, 20% that are true holy people in terms of loving God, they can see this better. But the majority are more linked to a delirious idea of being better than other people because they see the people as sinners, living inside of sensorial life. Living a kind of lower life. And them, no, they chose the best part.
Richard: They chose the high road. Yeah. So then to live in relationship with God in this relationship is to be more linked to who we truly are, right? This is
Cláudia: our virtue, ethics, beauty. And this is totally natural, Jones. It's natural. It's nature. So if we stop denying a little bit we feel so relaxed Because this
Richard: is natural. Yeah, it reminds me again of what Dr.
Keppe said in his book, Liberation. There's a chapter in there that just struck me the other day. I've been quoting it a lot with my classes and with friends. And he said that if I don't think something, somebody else will. If I don't feel something, somebody else will. We're talking about something good and beautiful and truthful. Because the truth is only to be accepted.
It's not to be created. It's not to be sort of decorated. It's to be accepted only. And
Cláudia: that's why, as you see, many people are awakening up in the world because one has this kind of resonance with God. And so when one starts, two start, when two, as Jesus put, When two or more start resonating with something, with an idea or with him, then the others will follow.
So we see this following because like this revolt against dictators in the East, the Eastern
Richard: countries,
Cláudia: in Africa. So this revolt is already a godly, a divine sign not to accept those demons in power anymore. Yeah. This is already some, it's God, it's the ferment of God inside the population. Right,
Richard: but going there to help them with bombs.
Cláudia: To profit the market of arms and weapons and
Richard: guns.
Then it gets all
Cláudia: messed up, doesn't it? Yeah, this gets all messed up because it gives chances to other dictators to take power. So it is important to that everybody, Richard, everybody would need to become conscious of psychopathology and psychosociopathology. This is the science of the 21st millennium per excellence. And if we do not want to see what is behind our actions, which is our own psychopathology, we will not be able to see humanity any longer.
Too much, you see japan now, yeah, they are considering another chernobyl, yeah, worse
Richard: than true.
Cláudia: And they see this as a overreaction. When chernobyl happened
Richard: everybody got
Cláudia: so scared, and now chernobyl, another chernobyl, and what will be from us. And as you said, many crazy lunatics praising atomic plants.
Richard: Yeah, big, big movement to say, but wait a minute, they're actually saying, Cláudia, that they are cleaner, safer, and more efficient than coal or gas.
But see, then we have the problem that we're getting energy the wrong way. Yeah. It's like comparing two bad things. Coal is also a disaster.
Cláudia: So people who do not know yet, Dr. Keppe knew physics that enabled engineers to develop the most efficient motor in the planet, in the world, which is the Keppe motor, that would diminish the expenditure of energy in 90%.
Richard: The use of energy by 70% to 90%, even more maybe, because 70% to 90% was a couple
Cláudia: of years ago. It's come a long way since then. So if people don't take it seriously, they are in a state of delirium.
Richard: And this book, The New Physics, by the way, is available now through Amazon. It's available as a PDF download, Kindle book, available on our site, too, Healing Through
Cláudia: Consciousness.
And also U.S. Stop, isn't it? U.S. Stop has
Richard: the books. Www.stopna.org.
Cláudia: Stop, North America. Stopna.org, yeah. So there are resources available for you. This new physics is something that really needs to be studied. And also they can enter kepimotor.com, kepimotor.org, to understand better the concept.
Richard: There's a great dialogue on the Kepimotor site between various scientists around the world.
Cláudia: Especially the kepimotor.org.
Richard: Very good.
Can we talk about what's happening with the Keppe motor, or is it still secret?
Cláudia: Well, we will maybe next week. Okay. When we
Richard: know something more.
Cláudia: Then we have more certainty about what is going on.
Richard: Yeah, because it's fascinating what's happening there.
Cláudia: Now, another thing, when you said that Dr. Keppe, in his book, Liberation of the People, he studied the pathology of powerful.
And in this book, he analyzes the powerful, the economic, financial powerful, mostly them, which he calls the sadistic phase of humanity or a human being when he gets hooked on money and aggression. Power. And power, social economic power. They are hooked in a stage, very undeveloped stage of their psychological development. So those people, they substituted love and feelings of love, romance, beauty by money.
So money is a very materialistic approach, very cold, very dry option in life. And the most unbalanced individuals that they cut off with the right side of the brain, they tend to be attached to money and to power. So they have just one side of the brain working.
Richard: Right, the right side of the brain being creative, universal, feeling. Being feminine.
Cláudia: More feminine side.
More intuitive.
Richard: More intuitive.
Cláudia: More related to the feelings, feelings, aesthetics.
Richard: Spirituality too.
Cláudia: Spirituality. So if you want to have a balanced way of thinking, a truthful way of thinking and understanding of reality, you must use the both energetic waves of the brain, which is the right side and the left side. So people who only use the reason, the rational side, they are not rational, they are intellectual, and they are alienated from reality.
So what do I mean? If people substitute love, doing good, being good for the others, being all terror-centric, wanting to do good for others, if you cut off the sense of being a loving creature, you will be a monster. You won't
Richard: be half a loving creature. You'll
Cláudia: be the opposite. You will be a monster. You will be like a demon. You will be an anti-being, which is against life and against even oneself.
So those delinquents, they are against themselves. So these people in power that only want money, they are totally disconnected from their own reality too. So that's why they are dry, they live alone, they don't have friends generally, they don't, they don't do like a, a real marriage with another person, meaning a loving relationship, but they do contracts, social contracts, and, and when these contracts are, are menaced, uh, are threatened
Richard: by, by
Cláudia: some betrayal, and they always are, because they are always betraying each other, because they are married with money, not with the other person, but with the money the other person has and can offer.
So this is totally, this is
Richard: a totally anti-civilization, this is why we see so much cruelty. When we watch Michael Moore's new documentary, we see the cruelty of the system. It's in Portuguese, inacreditável. It's unbelievable. And
Cláudia: what we discovered through Dr. Keppe's research is that those cruel people, they are absolutely sick people. They are delinquents and psychotic. They are really psychotic people.
They need treatment, mental treatment. They need to be, uh, hold back as if they would, uh, as if no, because they are mentally sick people, but as they have money they have the social power and they buy people. So the common people who are more human, they should understand this, that those people in power they are much less intelligent than, than the, the people who work are.
I, I heard
Richard: in a documentary recently, I was watching neil young, the great, a Canadian artist, wrote an album, a series of songs against the Iraq war, and then took his three colleagues, Crosby, Stills, and Nash, with him on a tour of America to sing these songs. And he was very controversial. There were people in the audience booing and walking out and other people who were loving it.
And it was this real polarization. And I heard one of the comments of a guy saying, look, if you have never been shot at, you can't criticize the government. Those guys are smarter than you are. And you're saying exactly the opposite now. They're not smarter than we are. No, they're, they've lost
Cláudia: their intelligence. Yeah, they hold the people back by power. They use the army, they use guns, they use bombs, they use uh physical power, even, to hold back intelligent people.
Richard: Prisons. There are more
Cláudia: prisons. So they use brutal force in order to hold back people. They are not more intelligent and more capable. And this is the danger. They are really dangerous people. It is as if people from a sanitary, mental health hospital, they would like uh have guns and power to put in prison the psychologists, the nurses, the psychiatrists, and take take the situation for their own um desire, whatever they want.
So that if they, if there is this shift of power in the mental hospital, imagine what is going to happen. And this happened in the world. So and people in power, they get furious against our work because we expose the necessity that they have to be seen as mentally unbalanced people. They are not mentally balanced people at all.
Richard: And why do we need to see them?
Because the psychological rule, everything we don't see increases in strength. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Great to have you along with us. Talk to you next time.
