Richard Lloyd Jones: From Brazil, it's Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. And welcome to you from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, guiding you on our journey today into analyzing what's going on in the world through the lens of psycho-socio pathology, the science of Analytical Trilogy elaborated by Norberto Keppe, which gives us, finally, a solid basis upon which to understand ourselves and our society.
In preparing on the weekend for today's program, I was watching a documentary on the history of rock and roll. Ten hours, exploration of the roots and social impact of rock on our culture. In one of the sections, My Generation looks at the social conscience of rock artists in the 60s. This is pretty potent stuff, where they explore the power of music to lead or at least contribute to sweeping social change.
And the inevitable question surfaced, of course, what happened? Now, I don't want to sound like anyone's parents here, but where have all the flowers gone? We have more serious problems today and much less reaction against them. Are we too apathetic, corrupted, and brainwashed to react anymore? Rekindling a social conscience today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Our contact information, and we'd love to hear from you, is joneshealing at gmail.com.
You can follow us on Twitter, Rich Jones Voice, the Twitter account. We're on Facebook, too, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, our Facebook group, and Richard Lloyd Jones on Facebook, too. Others, probably more than enough information for you there. Try and check us out and join us in what we're doing here. I think it's very, very important, and I'd love to have you involved and love to hear from you, too.
So let us know what you think, ideas you have, topics you'd like us to consider, questions you have. All of that is very, very welcome.
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As you may know, or may not know, our program is a program of consciousness. But consciousness of what? Well, principally, basing ourselves on consciousness of a psychological discovery called inversion. Dr. Norberto Keppe is a Brazilian-Austrian psychoanalyst. He coined this term way back in the late 70s to denote a condition that he noted from his vast clinical experience. Inversion is a process we initiate whereby we see things upside down.
Now, how do I explain this without going into a sort of lecture or a thesis on the subject? I have a good friend of mine in New York who's a smoker. And I remember when I was first studying Dr. Keppe's work, this idea of inversion, I remember asking her, but why do you smoke? She said the usual kind of thing that smokers always say, well, I'm addicted.
I have a physical craving for the nicotine. But I probed a little deeper and said, but what is it about smoke? When do you smoke? Why do you like to smoke? What are the opportunities that come up where you find yourself smoking? And she said, well, mostly I smoke when I'm stressed. Smoking relaxes me. And she also said that "if she stopped smoking she would gain weight" and it's like a light bulb went on i thought well look at that although smoking is a bad thing she knows that intellectually inside deeper down emotionally smoking was good for her relaxes her it helps her keep her weight down she just made her smoking positive and without realizing this of course that's important to state.
This disturbed young man, Wellington, who went into a school in Rio de Janeiro a couple of weeks ago and killed 12 children, suffered from this inversion as well. Well, he suffered from many things. He was a schizophrenic, of course, but this inversion is maybe at the basis of this schizophrenia. He saw himself as pure and all the others as impure, like he was chosen by God to clean up the society or something.
And this shows another psychological aspect, this link between inversion and megalomania or even theomania, this desire to be like a God that the first psychiatrists noticed in their work. And we can see evidence of this theomania driving inversion everywhere in our society. We think that nature is incomplete and we have to improve it to modify everything that grows, creating sterile crops that require buying modified seeds every year and making huge profits for Monsanto and DuPont, et cetera, when the seeds were free before that, or how we put dollars and profit above work in our speculative economic system.
Most people want to make money by doing nothing or doing as little as possible, right? And isn't it interesting how we throw dollars. Like in Japan, just shortly after this nuclear disaster and tsunami they had there, they pumped billions of yen into the stock market to keep it from collapsing. Meanwhile, the people are going without. It's another inversion. We throw the money at the financial institutions and not the people who make up the economic system to begin with.
But we have another serious problem. We're not reacting anymore. We stopped reacting. And I want to try and find out what's going on behind that psychologically. So I've invited our man on the beat, Gilbert Gambucci, to explore this with me. The point I think we want to get to, Gilbert, today is why aren't people reacting now in the same way that was happening in the 60s?
What in your view is going on there? There was so much people marching in the streets and protests on the college campuses and all that kind of thing, and that seems to be gone almost completely from our North American culture. What happened? Well, you
Gilbert Gambucci: know, first of all, Rich, it's very curious how Americans don't want to see what's going on, just don't want to know about it.
You know, it's a psychological factor here. And in studying Dr. Keppe's book, Liberation of the People, this is the first book written, ever written. It's historical, because it's the first book ever written about the pathology, the sickness of those who wield power. You know, it's a scientific perspective about how these people think, the sickness that they have. And in this book, there's a quote here.
It says, North Americans need to conscientize, that means to become aware of, the fact that human beings are free only if they adhere to goodness, truth, and beauty. Errors must be conscientized, consciousness not repressed. You know, that is to say, we need to have consciousness of where we are going wrong. You know, it's a scientific thing in order for the goodness, for the good things to flourish.
Jefferson put it this way, if you want to be ignorant and free. You want what never was and never will be. He understood very clearly this. It's like a more poetic way of saying the same thing. We have to become aware of our problems. And in fact, Kennedy was always, the late President John Kennedy, he was always bringing up questions that were not good in the society.
You know, why are the use of tranquilizers going up? Why is the divorce rate going up? Why is mental illness going up? You know, our profits seem to be going up, but so is everything else that is negative in the society. And he wanted analysis of these negative points, of course. And this has gone completely from our discourse today, isn't it, Gilbert?
I think rich people don't have an awareness that the anti-establishment movement in the 60s was stopped by an organized group of people. People don't realize that, you know. And in fact, imagine the president of the United States at that time, John Kennedy, who, in my opinion, was the last president we've seen who represented the people. He called a meeting in 1961, April 27th.
He had a press conference with the American Newspaper Publishers Association. And because he wanted to talk to them about awareness that he had about the dangers of secret sect societies. A little group of very sick, economically powerful people. They're very well organized, and they are the upper echelons of these secret sect societies. To name a few of these families that dominate economically the situation, The Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, the Schiff's, the Morgan family, the Oppenheimers.
There's a group and they are very well organized and they have a purpose in their undertakings for humanity. And Kennedy was very alarmed by this. I have here a part of his speech to the American media. He was saying, look, ladies and gentlemen, the very word secrecy is repugnant in a free and open society. And we as a people are inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
And he went on to describe what these people do, what they are like and what they do, why they are a danger to the American public and to the world. And, for example, quote, he continues, We are opposed, we Americans, we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding... It's fear of influence.
On infiltration instead of invasion. On subversion instead of elections. On intimidation instead of free choice. And he goes on to describe how these people operate. And these people are within the United States, most of them. They're mostly American and some Japanese and some European. Now, look, he's pleading with the American media. He says, quote, I am asking for your help in the tremendous task of informing and alerting the American people.
And so it is to the printing press, to the recorder of man's deeds, the keeper of his conscience, the courier of his news, that we look for strength and assistance, confident that with your help, the media, Man will be what he was born to be, free and independent. So, Rich, I know that you're the interviewer here, but can I ask you a question?
Sure, yeah. How did the media respond to Kennedy? Do Americans have this awareness in general? No,
Richard: of course not. It's completely hidden. Ah, so what happened there? So it was completely covered up. Kennedy's plea was not followed.
Gilbert: And so who has the power to
Richard: cover something up? Uh a greater power than the president of the United States. What is this?
Gilbert: Well we have
Richard: the uh David Rockefeller the founder of the Trilateral Commission uh speaking in June 1991.
So that's 30 years after. 30 years later. 30 years and a couple of months later and
Gilbert: uh he this is a pretty famous speech. You
Richard: can find this on on YouTube. You can find Kennedy's on YouTube too. Where David Rockefeller said, we're grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time magazine, and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years.
It would have been impossible, I'm quoting now, it would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto determination practiced in past centuries.
Gilbert: So with hindsight we can see that the media was already in the hands of the economically powerful. They own the media, and they do their biddings in their interest. They act in the interest of these people. And so the anti-establishment movement in the 60s was squashed. And not just, like, sabotaged. It was very violently confronted because it was becoming a world movement.
And we have this term that we use, the sleeping tigers. What is that exactly? You know, every movement has its leaders. And so what happened? Kennedy was murdered in front of our eyes. He was a great leader of the people themselves. And who else was of this kind of spirit, this spirit that is linked to the founding fathers, this altruistic philosophy of life, this question of contributing to society and not just taking from it, but giving to it so that the society itself develops.
You know, who's of this line? It's completely different from these economically powerful who just take everything they can from society. And so we see leaders like Martin Luther King, you know, was assassinated. It started with... He began as a civil rights movement leader, but very quickly turned into this whole question of anti-establishment. You know, the whole nation got behind him. Especially against the war in Vietnam, he was very vocal about that.
Malcolm X, in some ways, was a part of this as well. And then the last was when Robert Kennedy was running for president. It was the last hope of this anti-establishment people who wanted a more just society. He was the last hope. After he was assassinated, everything went quiet. That was it. Everything went quiet. Nobody questioned anything anymore. Now it's every man for himself.
Now everybody takes from society. Nobody gives to it anymore. Our philosophy of life changed.
Richard: It has indeed. And we need to analyze more about this. Rekindling a social conscience returns in a moment. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Positive World Radio Network. We'll be right back. We are back of course. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Positive World Radio Network.
Very proud to be there too of course and uh our website at healing through consciousness.com. Our good friend up in Edmonton Will Lajeunesse has been doing a lot of work keeping this as up-to-date as possible. Of course, things change here every day. Dr. Keppe's work is so expansive. Literally, you could put new articles on there every hour and not encompass the totality of what his work does.
But go to the site, and you'll get lots of information there. We have all the archives of our programs, too, that Cláudia and I have done together and that I've done with other people down here in Brazil. And I hope you'll find those interesting. And please pass it on to your friends. This social networking stuff has to start working for goodness, not just all the garbage that people use it for, but for good things.
So spread it out, pass it out amongst people and let's see if we can get some people actually doing something. I'm feeling like this today. Cláudia is smiling as I'm speaking. I had a cloud.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: I was thinking we should stop thinking too much, talking too much, reading not that much, but
reading
Richard: and doing and living,
Cláudia: putting in practice,
Richard: isn't it? Otherwise it gets so cerebral, you know, and I get a little frustrated because I'm a person that likes to do things.
You know, I'd like to go to the streets, and I was just watching a video of some protests in Mexico that they're taking to the streets to protest against the violence being caused by the war on drugs there, and 35,000 Mexicans have died, Cláudia, by civilians. In this drug
war, over the last six years, 35,000 people.
Richard: So the Mexicans are on the streets.
They're marching and protesting against the police violence and against the drug traffickers to this war on drugs that the president... So
Cláudia: people are starting to wake up. Yeah. And people are starting to, as you said, manifest.
Richard: To react. To react. Because, you know, I'm from the 60s. I'm a product of the 60s. And we had this idea then of not just accepting.
And
Cláudia: things are becoming unbearable, isn't it?
Richard: Oh, they really are, Cláudia. Our world is. You were talking, I think a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about the psychoanalysis of society and how this work of Dr. Keppe's was kind of a transitional work where you described it as sketching out the beginning of a sociotherapy. Yeah. And then you said in a class that you gave about this recently, you said that we were moving in a progression from this third phase of child development, the genital phase, narcissism.
We were moving from that phase, the Belle Epoque.
Cláudia: Yeah, romanticism.
Richard: Yeah, and then it all came crashing down.
Cláudia: We were moving to the maturity. Yeah. To the mature phase. What
Richard: happened? That's a big question.
Cláudia: I'm afraid I cannot give you a simple answer, because this involves a spiritual fight behind the scenes. It's a fight between good and evil. And many people who are listening to us may identify with what we are speaking about.
Some are a little skeptical, and others totally skeptical. But there is a spiritual fight that went on in the 20th century, where evil took power much more than in any other century or millennium. Because it would be like life or death. Like it's it's it's like the final conflict between good and evil. I see like this more or less. We are we are passing through or we are living we are undergoing a kind of final conflict end
Richard: of time sort of idea.
But
Cláudia: I would not say the end of times but the end of times as we know them, where good and evil have lived together in this society and where evil had grown in power and influence over the years, especially in the 20th century, where the intellect of the... More intelligent people. I would not say the wisest people. The wiser. Or the wisest.
Yeah. Smart. The smarter. Smart intellectual. No,
Richard: I would not say the wise ones. Yeah, of course. Because wisdom is one thing. Yeah. And intellect
Cláudia: is another thing. So the intellectuals developed very evil theories that look in the front. There are very deceptive theories in the front. They look rational. They look as yeah as if they
would be helpful to you
Cláudia: for humanity or to humanity but behind evil intentions went on and we we can we can see this through this book psychoanalysis of society where Keppe speaks that.
The sickest individuals in society organized the sickest institutions with the evil intentions to accomplish their bad desires, their negativity, their pathology. So pathological individuals created pathological institutions and pathological inverted laws that destroyed the affection, the love in society, love inside families, love among couples. So we see evil growing in force and power.
Richard: Institutionalized almost in some ways,
Cláudia: right? You see, for instance, Einstein, he was almost worshipped as a genius.
He was worshipped. He was, sure he was. And he was an intelligent guy. Some of what he did was okay. But behind that, what was the result? We are suffering. We are in the verge of destroying, of killing everybody with this nuclear disaster in Japan. And this is like a consequence of Einstein's work. So when we see Freud said something important Richard.
He said if you want to know pay attention. If you want to know the hidden unconscious intention of a person you see the results. If the results are not good the intentions unconscious ones we're not good. So everything you intend to do are shown through the results through the fruits as Jesus said. What
Richard: you read yeah this is not very common. Through the fruits you'll know the tree yeah through.
So the um uh the true the true intentions right not the intentions we think sometimes but those intentions
Cláudia: intentions which are unconscious. For instance if you are very eager to go for a trip, right? And then you get sick one or two days before or you suffer an accident, you create an accident to yourself. So this is showing that unconsciousness, unconsciousness, unconsciously, you did not want to...
It's
Richard: tough to work in a second language, isn't it? Oh my God, it's
Cláudia: so difficult. I suffer in Portuguese too, Cláudia, believe me.
Richard: Yes, unconsciously you
Cláudia: had an intention to not travel. Not to go, not to go. But then you will say, but I wanted so much. It was so incredible. I was working and waiting for this and looking forward and now what happened?
But if you analyze in depth, you will see that your intention was not to go. And then you may even discover why if you analyze it. Marriages that don't work. If we understood this. For instance.
Richard: Yeah, for instance. If we understood this, Cláudia, we'd be able to analyze what people say a lot better, you know, in media and elsewhere in the world.
I was studying with my class last night this, oh, some of the craziness in the world. I'm coming to this radio program thinking about the discussion we had last night because we were looking at things like fluoride in the water, a
Cláudia: crazy idea this is. Vaccines.
Richard: And the vaccines was the one I wanted to talk about because, you know, there was something that Bill Gates, who's really promoting this, said very recently. It was in one of these TED Talks, TED Conference, where he said, and you know, it's hard to think that he could have meant it in this way, but this is showing an unconscious intention.
He said, the world today has 6.8 billion people, that's headed up to about 9 billion. Now, if we do a really great job on new vaccines, vaccines, health care, reproductive health services. We could lower that. We could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent through vaccines and health care, health care. How do you lower population through health care? They're not talking about health care.
They're talking about something else. He's talking about something else. This shows another intention that's going on behind the scenes. So this relates to this fight between good and evil you're talking about, that there's something going on here in our society that's very, very, very serious.
Cláudia: Very evil. We want to wake people up to this. Because what Keppe tried to do in his sociotherapy, he put in like this.
Do you think that a true therapy for society or a sociotherapy could be organized? And he said, Since we understand that individuals are very sick and society is developed and organized by individuals, so how come we can build a society without analyzing the unconscious motives of individuals and their institutions? Yes. Because institutions want to dominate society. To rule society, to exploit society, to destroy society many times.
So institutions are the weapons or the tools sick individuals use to manipulate the people and the society, which becomes very sick. Now, you see, for instance, Rockefeller with the Rockefeller Foundation. What did he want to do in increasing the power of the medical industry and the pharmaceutical companies? We see the results. The results are horrible. People die a lot from the consequences of surgeries, of taking drugs and
Richard: side
effects, allopathic treatments and
Cláudia: vaccines.
So what medicine had contributed since Mr. Rockefeller took the power and founded the American Medical Association, the destiny of the medical industry was very bad. We saw a big decadence, a big decay inside the medical corporation. Previously, before, in the past, there were good doctors. Before Rockefeller entered in the field, and Carnegie, for instance, using the ideas of Pasteur in a very negative way.
Richard: Yeah, creating this, orienting all of medicine to the germ theory of disease, which is very faulty science. So we
Cláudia: see the projection, which is a very sick characteristic of individual pathology. We see projection dominating society because if we see all the evil coming from germs, and bacterias, we are very paranoid and projective and we become paranoid with the other person. So you are the cause of my sickness.
So when we see people walking down the streets in New York City, for instance, everybody's very scared even to shake hands because the other is like a big
Richard: bacteria. You're a walking
Cláudia: disease carrier. Yes. And this is not so. The disease comes from our inner self, not only psychological inner life, but our physical inner.
Richard: It's something that we're creating because of our...
Many things. Many things, yes.
Cláudia: Lifestyle, thoughts, emotions, bad energies, and many things.
Richard: And you're right. This medical complex now in the United States and around the world, spread around the world, is really causing a lot of destruction. We have people on pharmaceutical drugs, three or four drugs. You know, you take one drug and then you need another drug to deal with the three or four side effects.
We have iatrogenic diseases increasing enormously in North America. Huge profits from the pharmaceutical companies. The testing of new exotic medicines on marginalized groups in Africa, gay people, these kinds of things. Terrible situations happen. Let's come back and talk about that.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Positive World Radio Network. We are back in a moment.
We are back. We were talking with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco of course on our program my name is Richard Lloyd Jones Healing Through Consciousness our website joneshealing.com You were using one example. You were talking about the structures that are being used, the institutions that are being used to create and spread sickness in our society. That this is a psychological problem manifested out into the sociopathological sphere, if you'll call it that.
Cláudia: And hasn't it been the same problem with the religious institutions? Because the religious institutions, they didn't work for Christianity. They really didn't work for God or to create a true Christianity. But many religious institutions, most of them, were dominated by those sick individuals that enter the institutions and rule the institutions, using the institutions to serve them and their power and prestige. So, popes, rabbis, how do you call those Muslim leaders?
Richard: Yeah, good question. Well, they have the ayatollahs and the extreme.
Cláudia: So, all religious leaders. And if you can we you can see 10 or 20 percent that are true saint people but the others they because they are because they are unconscious of their own pathologies they become dangerous and they and they take people away from God. So as I spoke to you another day, Zondi, this famous psychopathologist that created the projective test, the Zondi test.
Richard: Zondi from Hungary, I think. Was he from Hungary?
Cláudia: And he was saying that if you are too much aggressive, you have too much sadistic tendencies hidden, you will choose professions to accomplish your sadistic desires in an acceptable, socially acceptable way, like being a surgeon, like working in a morgue, like um being a butcher, working
Richard: in the military,
Cláudia: working in the military, right.
Yeah, it
Richard: will, it will relate to your psychopathology already. You'll choose that profession because it will allow you to express socially acceptably this aggression or whatever it is that you're, wow. So if
Cláudia: you are too narcissistic you will become an artist probably. An actor. An actor. Which is socially acceptable and sometimes even constructive. Right? If you have if you are a pedomaniaco.
Okay.
Richard: Pyromaniac.
Cláudia: Pyromaniac. If you are a pyromaniac you are going to be a fireman. He said this.
Richard: Interesting. Yeah. Or
Cláudia: working with fireworks or something. Yes. So, if you are, for instance, atheist or have lack of faith, you will become a religious person, a religious institutionalized person. If you are too deceptive, you will become a media. If you are too hypocritical, sometimes you can work in the media to lie to people because there you can lie freely with no problem.
The problem will be if you have to speak the truth, then media will not be the best place for you to be.
Richard: Yeah, media is like a real contributor to this sociopathological situation we see in the planet today, isn't it?
Cláudia: Yes, unfortunately,
Richard: that's so. Yeah, it's the way it is. So these political structures would be another example, right? Yes. Of like an aggressive, if you're a little bit sadomasochistic, I think politics would be a fantastic profession because you can be sadistic, but you're also kind of masochistic because you put up with a lot of criticism all the time.
But at the same time, you can control and dominate in some way.
Cláudia: This would be a perfect. Like a banking system, for instance. The bankers, the owners of the bank are sadistic, are sadional people, very materialistic, money-oriented. But those who work for them are masochistic because they give their lives in order to bring more profit to those who are in power of the banking system or the Wall Street investors.
So you see that those people, they work day and night. They sometimes don't even sleep. And if their customers, they lose some money, they suffer so much. And they are stepped by them, like they are crushed by their bosses in this kind of work. So you see that generally speaking, people that work inside the banking system, they worship their bosses, they worship the richest and the powerful, and they are very masochistic because they feed all this sadism of those powerful people.
Richard: You must have a lot of faith to do what you do, Cláudia. I'm thinking how long you have been working in this field with Dr. Keppe of sociotherapy, psychotherapy, you're a great psychotherapist, psychoanalyst, and you have been working in sociotherapy for 50 years? How long have you been? 40 years. 40 years. And you must have a lot of faith because I think sometimes when I work with my students they start to think but what do we do?
There's all this desire and I was reading a text of Dr. Kepley's last night where he said if you wish to bring peace to humanity, it's enough to disinvert society so that each element can return to its natural place. Nothing to be done in the sense we think of. It's much more of an inner struggle. To change the way we perceive the world.
And then things will naturally return to their state. This takes a lot of faith. Because you're not out changing. You're not marching in the streets. I mean, you're doing TV. I
Cláudia: already marched. Okay, you did
Richard: that already. Did you know that?
Cláudia: That's something interesting Because I already marched Oh my God You know where did I march? Where? Fifth Avenue.
Richard: Fifth Avenue in New York City.
Cláudia: Yeah. Madison Avenue, Park Avenue. I marched with a group of people that wanted to bring, like to wake up New Yorkers and Americans, North Americans, about the danger they were facing with Reaganomics. Before this fall of United States happened, where they get $14 trillion debt.
Richard: $14 trillion in debt. Debt, I think. Their debt is $14 trillion, I think.
Cláudia: $14
Richard: trillion. Today. Today.
Cláudia: So this is so huge. And not considering all the losses and the fall down of their agriculture and farming and industries. And so it's a huge loss that happened since 84 up to now. And before this started happening, we picketed.
Richard: That's a great image. You and Dr. Kempik too?
Cláudia: Oh, sometimes he
Richard: was with us. Yeah. Yeah.
Cláudia: And we had a large group picketing and bringing this perception, fight American decay, fight American decay.
And it was so difficult to make people wake up, especially because they were the times of Reaganomics. Everybody was getting rich in a night while sleeping. Overnight. Overnight. So they were playing or this game, this game of Wall Street. Yeah,
Richard: it's like gambling.
Cláudia: Gambling,
Richard: right. It's like the slot machines.
Cláudia: So people were enthusiastic. How come this is magic? But the magic turned out to
Richard: be
the disaster of American
Cláudia: people.
And we did this picketing. It didn't work. It didn't work. So I continue working as writing and TV shows and radio shows and seeing patients because those who understand, at least we can help. They get healed from their diseases. They get better from their neurosis, psychosis. So they start having better conditions in their professional lives. They get better in their professions. They get better in their family relationships.
So I can help as much people as accept me or accept Trilogy.
Richard: Yeah. Same with our programs, Cláudia. It's the same
Cláudia: thing and the programs you do with Dr. Keppe. Yeah.
Richard: And Dr. Keppe said in this book, Work and Capital, which is a great book, by the way, he said the awareness of the new science of sociopathology is the first step towards resolving all social and mental problems.
He's talking about an educational process here where he said that if we had in if we have incorrect education which we Today, and a student who's highly envious, that person will become probably psychotic or certainly seriously problematic. If the person has a lesser degree of envy with an incorrect educational basis, they will become more neurotic. But if we have correct education, the person with extreme levels of envy, they can be controlled a lot more.
They become sort of neurotic, not so psychotic. And the people who are with less envy, less pathology, less reaction against goodness, they become more sane, more balanced. And
Cláudia: this happened, for instance, with the United States in the past because they had a better structure, a healthier structure in society. The values, the laws, there were many, many wrong things there. Criminal actions, criminal institutions, criminal laws.
But there were still some laws and some behaviors, some protocols, social protocols that were healthier. They gave more value to democracy. They gave more value to work, to accomplishment. Helping others. Helping others. And they wanted to be the number one in what they did, in what they accomplished, They're not the number one in their bank account. So it's totally different. It's totally different because this attachment to money, it's very delirious.
It's sick because money is nothing. Money is a paper. Money is nothing in life. People can say, okay, no, money is everything in life.
Richard: Without money, what do we do? But
Cláudia: what brings money? The true work, because money that was artificially made has no value and doesn't work. You don't eat money, you don't drink money, you cannot be happy with your, like the Uncle Donald, he had money inside his bathtub, and so this was ridiculed in those times, and now people accept it.
Richard: You're talking about Donald Duck, the uncle who was having a bath with all his money, yes. So
Cláudia: this is delirious of many people, and now they are, oh, my God, so what happened? We are all drugged because drugs invaded the United States, and all people in deliriums, and the deliriums are going away already. They are leaving our minds, so what is
Richard: left?
What is left? Yeah. So then we have to come back to the true values.
Cláudia: And Keppe said, if you go too deep in the decay, if society gets too deep also, so sick individuals in a sick society, they go so deep in their decadence that it will be almost impossible to recover.
Richard: Which is what we're seeing. Yeah. Yeah, we have an economic system where we're based totally on inflationary ideas.
We want to make money with money. We don't have anything that's based on. We're making all of these investments, making money on currency exchanges. And all of these things don't generate anything in terms of real value. So we're in big trouble in Norway.
Cláudia: Virtual money. Virtual. Virtual richness. You have big deceptions. Big deceptions.
Richard: Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Positive World Radio Network.
Don't go away. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. As you were speaking, Cláudia, I was having the experience I often have, which is that how did the wheels come off the truck so badly? I think this is a profoundly, and I was saying to my students last night, we were talking about business, the world of business, what's happening in the world, and I was saying, but don't you feel that there's like a loss somehow of an ethical nature?
Because we're considering this killer in Rio de Janeiro a couple of weeks ago who killed 12 children and considering, why would he do this? Everybody's trying to understand why these things would happen. Why do we go to war in Libya? Why do we kill people? Why is there ethnic cleansing? We want to try and understand the why without looking inside the ethical nature of human beings.
When
Cláudia: you speak like this, Richard, my mind flies and I go to what Jesus Christ spoke about the apostasy that would take over humanity in some period. I understand that probably we are living these times, or this critical time, where apostasy... Forgive my ignorance. Apostasy... Apostasy
Richard: is like lack of faith. Okay, yeah.
Cláudia: That would dominate society. That even the most, the best ones, or the chosen ones, or whatever, the elite, would suffer from this problem.
So let me tell you what I was thinking. That probably what jesus meant was this corruption that would take over the inner structure of human the human nature like uh humanity
Richard: would dominate yeah
Cláudia: because you know virtue is something strong, rigid. The source, the semantic of the word virtue is like strong, rigid.
Richard: It's
Cláudia: unequivocal. It doesn't waver. And corruption is like tooth decay or bone decay.
It's a decay that gets our inner life rotten from inside. So, ethics, according to Keppe, is very much linked to faith, in terms that faith is the faith in goodness, faith in truth, faith in what is. So knowledge can only happen if you have faith in what is. If you deny, if you put in doubt everything that is, the validity of goodness, the validity of reality, the validity of the, of beauty, the validity of virtues, the validity of values.
So if you put in question, if you deny, you cause this inner decay, this inner rottenness, this inner corruption. And I see humanity like this, very weak. Virtuous people are strong, corrupt people are very weak. We have a weak inner self now in humanity because everything is not, is not for sure, is not valid, it's not strong. You, you make your choices very weakly, yes or no, this can be, everything is relative, and this had have weakened humanity to such a point that nobody reacts any longer, Richard, sure, and nobody
Richard: fights any longer for their own lives.
Exactly. And if there's a, a crisis, we're very weak in the face of the crisis, we lose control, we get very
Cláudia: decadent, very decadent, decadence and
Richard: weakness come together. And you know I worked a lot in the media, and one of the things I saw in a lot of my friends who were journalists, much more prominent journalists than I, I worked in journalism, but I worked more in the area of entertainment in radio and television.
And I noticed something, Cláudia, that media people, they kind of reflect what you're talking about for us externally, at least for me, they represent this, because they have this idea that anything that's good, you can't really believe in that. There's a cynicism that took over in the media. And I would see this in this way. If anything bad happened, well, they were in their element because this is a crisis.
This is when the news people are supposed to do their work. There they go to cover the event. They're totally involved. They're waiting for that to happen. But something good comes along, like Dr. Keppe's work, and they They go, no, I don't trust this. And so that's why you see in the news, when you watch the news, you see only, if it's 15 minutes, you see 14 and a half minutes of garbage.
Not garbage, but destruction, horror.
Cláudia: The only certainty, evil.
Richard: Yeah. And the last 30 seconds, they show a fireman saving a cat from a tree. And
we're supposed to feel, wow, see, there is goodness in the world. But we
Richard: don't believe in goodness, and the media reflects that. The journalists, we don't believe that it's good. We don't believe that goodness can dominate.
Cláudia: Yes, and it's a pity that people understand or understood Satan as belonging to the old-fashioned Jewish Christian thought and Islamic thought.
It's something that belonged to the past, is symbolic. And superstitious.
Richard: And also
Cláudia: by religious people it was taken superstitiously. As if Satan belonged to the church or something like this. And not that Satan is inside all of us. In what terms? In which terms? As Malachi Martin used to say, the evil one, he comes very slowly, little by
Richard: little, tiptoe,
Cláudia: tiptoe, sneaking in,
Richard: with a
Cláudia: suggestion, just a small thing today and another small thing to get tomorrow.
So when you wake up, you are taken. And do you know what makes more clear, and even Malachi Martin used to explain this, how do you know if you are taken, because you know intellectually that something is wrong, that you should not do what you were doing, but your will is taken, you don't have strength and not to go against that wrong thing that you see intellectually in your life.
For instance, you know that you cannot smoke. It's wrong. It's bad for your health. You know everybody around you very sick. You see advertisements saying you're going to get cancer, you're going to die, you're going to suffer, but you don't have strength enough to stop it. The same thing with alcohol, the same thing with drugs, and the same thing with anything, that the virtues were gone.
You know that it would be very good if you would be honest and truthful, if you would have a healthier life, but the decision or the inner impulse or stress to do this is gone. So your will is taken over by the evil one, and
Richard: then we say but it's just a small thing, who cares, it's just a small lie, and
Cláudia: everybody's like this, so who cares, everybody's going to die.
I have heard this so much, and who cares, we're going to die anyhow, so let me live the way I want it, to have some pleasure, to have some fun while I'm here. So this is the way people think today.
Richard: And what I want to say to those listening is that inside Dr. Keppe's work, you will find discussions about these themes that we're talking about now.
This is very, very thrilling because if we have a spiritual problem, a spiritual rot inside, this needs to be addressed. And it's not being addressed, not being considered.
Cláudia: And spiritual is together with psychological, is together with social, is together with nature. So there is no separation. Spiritual life is not inside churches. It's our everyday life. You who are listening to us, wouldn't you like to have the chance to have a good health, to have a good relationship, a loving relationship, and to travel in freedom all around the world, knowing new cultures, peoples that are different in, in religion and habits and in culture, in their histories.
So wouldn't you like to know the world, know people in, in a climate of peace and tolerance, and wouldn't you like to be able to raise your children in a world that it has no threats, no violence. So this is not utopia. This is the true reality that we were meant to live, to live
Richard: in a world that doesn't repress our spirit, that respects our true freedom, to do good, to do beautiful things, to have work that's meaningful and valuable to society, to not pollute, to look after the planet, to look after each other.
Cláudia: A world where you could have one-third of work, one-third traveling, and one-third study. Research. Research. So this is possible. If we all would be working for our own, then the goodness of our fellow man, and not just for the billions and trillions of profits of this small group of people, we would be able to live our lives like this. Wouldn't that be something?
And this is possible. This is totally
possible. This is not
Cláudia: impossible at all. We have a trilogical economy, like based on production, where everybody works for the good of everybody and his own benefit. So the money we have would be more than enough for everybody to have a very good standard of living. And we are experimenting this. Because we have this society being organized.
Richard: We're working like this now in our, well, we don't do one-third travel yet, but I'm waiting. And you know
Cláudia: why? Yeah, because we have to work for the powerful still. We still have to pay many, many taxes and to support the way we have to live. We are inserted in a society that is still in the old-fashioned economy. So that's why. But even so, what we have is already something.
We have a lot of wood, we have the best weather, we have incredible artists, and what is missing? Money. And where is the money? You that are in the waves, listening to us, where is the money?
The money is
Cláudia: in the banks, inside the banking systems, in the bank accounts of a few. So they hold all this money. So the life in the city is all stopped because it's missing money.
There are many things to be done, many things to be built, many people wanting to work. And we have land to plant. We have everything to be done and everything still to be done and to be accomplished. And we don't have the money, the damn money, the damn bills of money. Susan, would you read just a paragraph where Dr. Keppe speaks about United States ideals?
Read here.
It's from the same book, Liberation of the People. The struggle for freedom reached its peak at the time of the French Revolution. The American independence, and the drafting of the Constitution of the United States of America. At that time, Immanuel Kant wept tears of gratitude upon seeing the struggle of the French people. Indeed, everyone who witnesses such events or reads about them experiences a surge of enthusiasm.
Nevertheless, what we are witnessing today is another form of slavery. In all certainty far worse for it debases not only the body but the soul as well. It prevents the human being from developing his intelligence and feelings and it forces him to spend his life in an animalistic manner. The slavery of economic power is by far the most subtle for it has the power to corrupt the minds of scientists and to alienate man, the power to destroy civilization itself.
Cláudia: Beautiful, isn't it? What we are proposing is to get back to the previous or the original American Constitution and ideals because the most developed aspect of civilization was written in that Constitution. So let's see if we still have time to have a handful or a bunch of people, because if we have 10 percent, 20 percent of people becoming conscious and opening their minds, opening their inner lives, you will see what really power of consciousness is.
Richard: Encouraging. My special thanks to Susan Berkley for that reading of Dr. Keppe's beautiful book Liberation of the People available now on our website HealingThroughConsciousness.com this is Richard Lloyd Jones thanks for listening you're listening to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network talk to you next week
