Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. In the philosophy of religion, evil has always been a thorny issue. Is evil something inherent in the essence of man and nature? Or is it a willful act of ill-intentioned human beings? And then there's the whole confusion of natural disasters, the presence of which has even caused some thinkers to deny the existence of a perfectly good God.
If hurricanes exist, this argument goes, perfect goodness doesn't exist. I think it's safe to say the theological concept of the existence of a being of evil, as described in Judeo-Christian scripture, is also controversial. A rebellion in heaven led by one of God's brightest angels, Lucifer, is today treated mostly as allegorical or metaphorical, tales told to illustrate moral truth but not meant to be taken literally.
But in Norberto Keppe's deep science of Analytical Trilogy, spiritual influences in the myriad psychosocial crises we face today are considered. In fact, in Keppe's experience, the spiritual component is most necessary. Evil in the modern world, today, I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Inverting the human being in society is our Stop Radio Network slogan, and for good reason, because we human beings are inverted from what we should be.
You can see in that statement a metaphysical position that if we are inverted, We must be inverted from something. We must have an inversion from a previously correct existence. And it's here that Dr. Naruto Keppe establishes his starting point. We are, in essence, just like all of life and the universe, created in goodness, truth, and beauty, and with those elements forming our being.
So any divergence from that would not be the natural order of things, but rather, the corruption of that good essence.
We have an entire inversion section there now, complete with videos and audios and book extracts, all to help make this pivotal concept of inversion more tangible.
It's my personal belief that if this concept were studied and understood, the answers to our myriad and seemingly unsolvable crises would be at hand. That's no small thing, I know, but head over to our site at stopradio.org to check out what we've done there, and do let us know what you think of it while you're at it, okay? That would be very helpful.
Well, we're wading into controversial waters again today by beginning what I hope will be a series on treating evil in the modern world. And all of this, especially seen from the point of view that evil is influenced by evil beings and spirits, quickly lands any who propose this in hot water. The modern scientific view just can't go there, and to our detriment, as we'll discover with Dr.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco in this series. Putting a face on evil and understanding the evil influences all around us is essential for all who seek more consciousness about the root causes of our problems. This is not obsolete, fanatical, or extreme in any way, And we appreciate you joining us on this exploratory journey. Evil in the Modern World with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco and Thinking with Somebody Else's Head continues in just a moment on the Stop Radio Network.
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listening to the most relevant conversations on the planet about how to stop destroying ourselves and the world.
So you
Richard: don't want to stop cutting trees because... I make money. But if we keep cutting them... Well,
it affects the weather a little. Oh, a lot actually. And it contributes to global warming. Well, that's kind of serious.
And destroys the ecosystem. So what'd I get you to stop? Well, if they paid me the same money as stop cutting trees that I get for cutting them. Well, that's an interesting way to look at it. If I don't cut the trees, someone else will. Inversion. It's killing us. A message from the STOP the Destruction of the World Association. StopNA.org.
Our program is
Richard: Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're on the Stop Radio Network. You can find us all over the place through iTunes radio stations.
And, you know, just all sorts of places where good radio stations are found, good radio programs are found. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco has joined me again today for what I think is going to be a really, really important show.
I've been sort of feeling it most of the morning as I've been preparing, Cláudia, for you to come here and do our recording.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: We will not do one recording about this. I suppose
Richard: we must do a series of recordings on this subject. Great. So let's start with a fact, I think, that when I first came to Brazil, I had very little consciousness of, And I think many people listening have very little consciousness of, which was discussed in Dr.
Keppe's landmark book, which I had the privilege of helping to translate, called Universe of the Spirits. What's the basic premise that Dr. Keppe is proposing in this book about this world of spirits that exists outside our five senses? Talk just a bit about that as a sort of way to establish our point here, Cláudia. Well,
Cláudia: you know, Dr. Keppe is a pure psychoanalyst.
He's a scientist. He began his work on this area of the human psyche a long time ago in the hospital of the University of São Paulo, mostly. But he went to Vienna, he studied there with the psychoanalytical groups, and some of those psychoanalytical groups, they consider the Freudian psychoanalysis too materialistic, too linked to the senses, sensorial kind of psychoanalysis. And this seems to be something that is against the principle of psychoanalysis, because analysis is analysis of the psyche, and psyche is soul, means soul.
In Greek, the word psyche is soul. So most of our psychological life, Richard, most of it, is not pertaining to the field of the senses. We can start about feelings of love, intuition, consciousness, ethics. Perception. Perceptions. No, perceptions, people may say, no, it's linked to senses.
Richard: But
Cláudia: you can say extrasensorial perceptions, like intuition and precognition and, you know, feelings. Emotions, feelings, emotions, they are mostly, mostly not visible, not tangible.
And not, nevertheless, they exist. Yeah, they're real. They're real. And they belong to the majority of things that we accomplish in society. Society is based 90% on invisible things, on laws and ethics and morals and habits and conducts and wishes and the wish to be happy. Desires. Desires that are a lot linked to the psychological life, not physical. Desires are very much linked to sex and food and money, but aspirations and the aspiration to be happy, this has very little to do with money, power.
Power is something intangible, meaning it's unseen, it's invisible. It's very much invisible, and everybody
Richard: wants to have power and prestige, and it's very much invisible, very much so. And what you're talking about is so true because if we get sick, the immediate thing we start to question is, what has my life been for? What have I been doing? I've been chasing after money or women or houses or something.
And now, as I have this health challenge, I'm realizing that all of that was for naught, was not
Cláudia: important. And even for atheistic people that think they die and they just finish, they end, they're over. Like, life is over when people die. Even those people, they live 90% based on invisible values and aspirations and sensations and emotions.
Richard: Desires, you said.
Cláudia: Values. So, all this invisible world is very important, very important for humanity.
Even though people say no, what I don't touch I don't believe. But they then would not believe in affection, in loyalty, in truth, in lying to people and not lying, being being betrayed or not being betrayed. All of this belong to this Visible world.
Richard: Yeah, dreams, aspirations, as you said.
Cláudia: Yeah, aspirations,
Richard: mostly. So is this what Dr. Keppe is talking about in Universe of the Spirits?
He's talking
Cláudia: about this world that
Richard: exists, right?
Cláudia: When he started to see patients, he also realized that the majority of the problems they manifested were very little or had very little to do with sex and to material needs. And so the majority of the problems were related to the soul in terms of psyche, even to spiritual subjects, to metaphysical subjects. In Brazil, we have like a very common kind of practice among the people from all levels of society.
Academics, high-level academics, and very simple people. They have like an understanding or a kind of spiritual practice here, which is called spiritism. This espiritismo, as we say in Portuguese, it's like a scientific or supposedly scientific manner to understand the spiritual life. Most of them are Christians, many of them are even Catholics, but they are spiritists, as they call, because they accept life after death and they accept the existence and the possible communication between living beings here, incarnated beings here, and the spirits that are already disincarnated.
This
Richard: comes from Allan Kardec's studies, the
Cláudia: French philosopher. Yeah, this is a French philosopher, Allan Kardec, which, by the way, is not that well-known in France, but it's very well-known in Brazil, very well-known all over Brazil. Yeah, that's true. And people, they have this experience in their lives. And we have seen many, many, many movies being produced in the United States and other countries all over, all over, that show that people have this notion that they are not alone.
We are not alone. We are not alone in the universe. I'm not saying only about ETs. I'm speaking about spirits. People feel their presence. Sometimes they manifest very sensorialistic. They manifest with noises,
Richard: with
Cláudia: visions, smells, they hear. And you know something, Richard, up to a time ago when psychiatry was too powerful, they started to label these hearings and these visions and these intuitions and perceptions as just pathologies of the brain that should be treated with or using psychiatric drugs and treatments like electroshocks, insulin therapy, and other things of the kind.
Richard: Even to lobotomies, I guess. Yes.
Cláudia: So this was like medieval kind of focusing this kind of reality. And people who heard voices or saw things, they were afraid to tell other people because people would say, so you are crazy, you are a psychotic, you are having delusions and deliriums and hallucinations. But, you know, here in Brazil, and I saw in the United States when I worked there for several years, that people don't pay that much attention to this any longer, thanks God.
Because otherwise, everybody would have one point in their lives that they would be considered as psychotic.
Richard: Sure. Children often have their little friends,
Cláudia: don't they? Very often.
Richard: And this is seen by many parents as being hallucinatory and problematic, so kids learn not to see their little friends anymore. But there must be a real experience by this because I had an experience that was quite surprising to me when I went back to Toronto a number of years ago to spread the ashes of my ex-wife who had committed suicide.
And I was spreading her ashes in one of her favorite parts of Toronto. And she was having a conversation with me. I could feel her having a conversation with me. As I was spreading the ashes, it was in an area of the city where there were a lot of mosquitoes. For some reason, there were a lot of mosquitoes there and I was getting beaten, eaten alive by these mosquitoes.
And I remember saying to her, did you have to pick this place for me to spread your ashes? And she started communicating with me. Cláudia, I could feel it in my head, the conversation. So I decided to go on a walk through this part of Toronto that she liked so much, remembering the places that she and I had liked to walk while she was alive.
It was a very real experience that I had with her. And I can't say that this is delirium.
Cláudia: Yeah, just because
Richard: you can't touch it as
Cláudia: a matter.
Richard: And I can't see her and nobody can measure her presence. In
Cláudia: one of the books Keppe wrote about physics, he uses to say that maybe 10% of the universe, of everything that exists in the universe is material, it's matter.
90% is energy or energetic beings, energetic things that don't show up to our five senses. And, oh, Richard, it's so ridiculous because you see dogs and dolphins, they hear things, they manifest the presence of spirits, and we cannot grasp this. But their senses can. Cats, many animals, they can grasp and hear things that are in a vibrational level different from ours. So, how come people only consider as reality what our five poor senses can grasp?
This is ridiculous.
Richard: Well, this is the degradation of science, I think, isn't
Cláudia: it? Yeah, degradation. That's right. So, going back to Keppe, when he was seeing his patients, he was maybe the first, maybe the first psychoanalyst that treated this kind of things as something normal. In the life of people and how people should understand and relate themselves to those beings. So if you have a problem with a friend, with a wife, with your husband, with a parent of yours, and then you know why you have some frictions or you have difficulties, the same with the spirits.
Why do we have so much difficulties to relate to them? So this is something to be analyzed, psychoanalyzed, in depth, and it's beautiful, because then people didn't necessarily have to take drugs or go through those painful psychiatric treatments, you know?
Richard: I had a student come to me one time telling me that she had a lot of problems with men because her father had died when she was very young, and she'd always felt abandoned by men.
And in the moment she was telling me that, I had an experience of her father in the room, and I realized that I needed to tell this young woman that she could help her father now by living a good life, not being victimized by this situation that had happened to her, which is a difficult, uncomfortable situation for anybody. That she could actually, by dealing with this in her life, moving forward in her life, she could help alleviate him.
That was a very powerful class for her and for me because I got to realize that if we are really eternal outside time and space, then these problems we had in the past are not only in the past. There's something that can happen now that we can resolve now in some way. Am I making any sense? Do you understand what I mean?
Yes, I
Cláudia: understand. And you know, Richard, the majority of your students, when you enter the subject, most, the biggest majority, they all have something to tell. In some point of their lives or many examples, many instances. But to such an extent that Keppe usually says that a person who never saw, never heard, never felt anything that is coming or linked to the transcendental world, to the spiritual world, that have never had any experience, extrasensorial experience, they are the abnormal ones.
They are like dumb numb sorry maybe
Richard: dumb too
Cláudia: Numb. They are
Richard: numb in their perception. Anesthetized. They don't
Cláudia: perceive. So this is abnormal. It's not a good sign because we are lowering down our vibration and we don't grasp anymore the world of the spiritual. The
Richard: more subtle.
Cláudia: The more subtle, the higher the spiritual level. And when you go to this level, when you accept to relate to this level, you not only see good beings, but you also see bad beings, evil beings.
They belong to this world.
Richard: Okay. Let's come back and talk about your studies in that, you and Dr. Keppe, which are quite extensive and interesting to talk about and have been going on for at least 20 or 30 years. We'll come back and look more at that with Dr. Cláudia Baron-Harper-Sheiko, our program about the spiritual life. We'll do that when we return on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Humankind's greatest problem is thinking that what we don't see won't hurt us, Norberto Cappi. Disinverting the human being and society, this is the Stop Radio Network.
Cláudia: I remember the book Glorification that Dr. Cappi wrote. I was with him many of the nights or days where he got those inspirations from God. And it was a necessity for him to write what he received.
So the book was totally written under inspiration. But it's not only a theological book. It's mostly a scientific book. Very therapeutic book. Very beautiful, by the way. And he used to wake up during the night, 2, 3 in the morning. And he said let's go to the top of the mountain and we were watching the sky in this dark night with no interference so you could transcend the sky and see heaven through it.
You could adapt the writings that he did with the music of Beethoven and this would be a trilogy of his writings and the music would be heaven
Richard: We are back Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard Lloyd Jones with you.
It's the Stop Radio Network. I'd love you to tune in, and please pass it on to your network of friends. That's how we grow. Okay, so Cláudia, we were talking, just giving a sort of overview about the fact that this spiritual world exists.
It's there. Many people have contact with it, and that it's a real thing. Tell us about your studies into this area now, because you and Dr. Keppe have been very at the vanguard of
Cláudia: looking at the demonology and the… So following this reasoning that Keppe had, he started to perceive that most of the torments, neurosis, psychosis, even organic illnesses, they were connected to this torments in this spiritual dimension of the beings, his clients.
So his clients, when they manifested a bigger connection with this evil negative spiritual experiences, they had a bigger chance to develop what we usually call psychosis, neurosis, and all these symptoms like obsessive compulsive behaviors. Panic attacks, and so on and so forth.
Richard: You mean unresolved connection with this spiritual life, right? Not that we shouldn't have a connection with it. No, no, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Cláudia: If they were too dominated by this kind of beings, unseen or non-material beings. So he started to dedicate himself more on this area. And so we did. And we thought, why? For so many centuries and in all the civilizations, they always considered the existence of these evil beings, not only the Christians, but also the Jewish, the Islamic, the Buddhistic, all these people they understand and they have as a as a as a
Richard: evidence native peoples.
Yes,
Cláudia: it's a millenar knowledge that was swept away by some materialistic, rationalistic kind of European so-called scientists. And they started this reductionistic kind of scientific philosophy that only what you can touch, feel, and smell with your five senses is real. Now, this is even interesting because psychotic people, as they are called psychotic people, they can smell and they can see as if they were using the five senses.
This is very interesting. But going back… See things
Richard: that they can't see, that nobody else can see.
Cláudia: We thought, Keppe thought, why should I not listen to what our clients come and say? Why should I consider this all as delusional, fictitious kind of speech? Why shouldn't we consider this as something real? And then he started to listen to them and to be like, listen seriously and take them seriously.
You know, the results were so promising, so liberating for those clients, for those patients. Results
Richard: in terms of cure for them. Cure.
Cláudia: Resolving issues. Yes, sorting, like leaving crisis behind and healing diseases and getting back to normal lives. And sometimes I quote here, Dr. Keppe once saw a patient that was considered a schizophrenic by his doctors. And he understood he was a dog.
And he behaved like a dog, and he barked,
Richard: and he walked on
Cláudia: his hands and knees, and Keppe approached this as a spiritual problem. And now he is a professor at the University of São Paulo. He came back to his normality. Incredible. Yeah. And I would think,
Richard: Cláudia, that some of these issues that people deal with can be even generational, can't they?
They can be like from a family pattern, which I think
is interesting because
Richard: sometimes we feel things. In my family, we have a lot of anxiety. People can feel anxious in my family. I can see that. And it's like a family. We're not the only family that has this, but you can see that this kind of fear that comes up is very present in members of my family.
Yes. So this is a generational thing.
Cláudia: Yes, it is. We have so much to talk, Richard, so much.
Richard: It's like opening a new universe. A universe of the spirits.
Cláudia: It's incredible what we can discover through these studies. So going a little bit further and thinking how then are these communications, what these communications can be, like positive ones, inspirational ones in the good sense, deceptful in some other senses, and painful in other senses.
So there are levels or qualities, these communications, you can see quality in them. They can be good and they can be evil. They can be inspirational, bringing you to development and health and balance and flourishment. And they can be crippling experiences.
Richard: Yes, you see this.
Cláudia: So there are then good and evil beings in the spiritual level. There are angels. The angels can be seen as persons with intelligence, with choices and will and communications.
They are conscious beings, intelligent. They have will. And they can and they do communicate with us through our neurons mostly. They don't come to our ears, physical, but they come directly to our brain. So we hear them in our brains. In our head, yeah. We
see them, we
Cláudia: hear them, and we can talk to them. We make a dialogue many times to those beings even not understanding that we are not dialoguing with our own mind, that we are not alone without But we are in a spiritual transcendental dialogue.
So this is unconscious for most of humanity. And this is really dangerous. Because people can be deceived, and they are deceived. So, when we understood that those angels can be evil, we go back to this ancient knowledge about demons, Satan, Lucifer, and devils.
Richard: The fall of man, the Adam
Cláudia: and Eve in the garden. And we go back to this and we think, oh gosh, this is true.
This is scientifically seen as truth when we deal with psychology. Psychology is a science. Psychoanalysis is a science. Yeah,
Richard: through treating the patients, you realize the
Cláudia: reality of that world. Yes, absolutely true. So that people can imitate animals when they get too much involved with those negative angels or evil angels or these beings. They can imitate or through their attitudes and actions, they are more similar to animals and to beasts than to true human beings.
Richard: Look, I'd like to talk about that. We won't do it in this program. I think it's not the scope of this program, but I would like to, in our next program, talk about the fall of man, what that was
in
Cláudia: reality. But I want to come back a little bit to your studies that you and Dr. Keppe particularly did in the United States and here in Brazil as well.
So at this point, it was around the beginning of the 80s. In the beginning of the 80s, we had some research groups in our institute. We had psychologists, psychoanalysts, and lay people that were interested in studying psychoanalysis. And so it integrated these studies in our psychoanalytical society. We went to psychiatric hospitals. We went to those spiritist centers. We went to regular hospitals.
We researched on drug-addicted people, alcoholics. So we had more data. And even we were able to record some things that were not audible, like in the presence of
Richard: like… You heard them later listening back to the
Cláudia: recording. The recording, because the tapes in those times were magnetic tapes. Yeah, sure.
And these spirits, they usually
Cláudia: manifest themselves in magnetic kind of instruments.
Richard: I wonder if it wouldn't happen with digital equipment then.
Maybe we wouldn't capture the same thing with digital equipment.
Cláudia: Maybe, maybe. Maybe they can. But
Richard: I know that magnetic tapes, they say they do
Because those spirits, they act a lot in digital things, the evil ones mostly, in electrical devices. The evil ones, the disturbed ones, they generally manifest themselves in electrical devices. And the good ones in magnetic devices.
Cláudia: And this we have to explain later on when we enter the fields of physics.
The physics in neutrons, electrons, protons, because those beings, they are also magnetic beings or electrical
Richard: beings. There's our next show, too. But tell me about these studies. After going to these mental institutions, talking with the people who are having under psychiatric help.
Cláudia: So we had such an amount of rich, rich material. We thought, oh, my God, we need to bring this to the knowledge of people.
So, we organized a symposium here in São Paulo in 1983. We had 800 participants. Wow. And there we started the first symposium on demonology considered under a scientific view, approach. And people thought we were a kind of exorcists at the time, but we weren't. We are psychoanalysts, but we cannot say that this is not a kind of exorcism. Why? Let me tell you why.
This is a big, a huge difference between what Capi understands and what exorcists understand. And then we will, in the next show, probably talk about the experience
we had with the most famous exorcist ever, Malachi
Richard: Martin in New York. And also an interesting author, Scott Peck. Peck. Scott Peck.
Cláudia: M. Scott Peck. Yes. Children
Richard: of the
Cláudia: Way. People of the Lie and
Richard: other books.
Cláudia: So we had very interesting experiences with them in New York City in 1983, 1984, when we brought our symposium to United States. But now I want to say that a big difference between Keppe and the traditional exorcists is one major. Exorcists understand that there are psychosis or psychopathological manifestations, and there are possessions, spiritual possessions, like demonic possessions, and they don't have anything to do with each other.
And they're different, and that you must differentiate among those two.
Richard: Yeah, they talk about psychological and spiritual. They make
Cláudia: a distinction, just direct distinction between them. And Keppe
Richard: doesn't
Cláudia: do. What he realized in his researches is that there is no difference between any sort of disturbance, illness, Be it physical, be it psychological, spiritual, they are all under the influence of these evil beings.
And our own evil spirituality, which melts with those spirits.
Richard: Melts, it joins with them. Yes,
Cláudia: yes, yes, yes. The resonance factor that you've talked about. Yes, we are kind of identified, we are under their influence, we are following them. Because of our own pathologies, our own weaknesses, our own problems, you know. We have our sins, as religious say. We have our addictions, our inversions, our
Richard: neuroses
Cláudia: in terms of our pathologies, our personal pathologies.
So we get more or less connected to those beings in resonance according to our own pathologies.
Richard: We're all under the influence.
Cláudia: And all laws, all institutions in the world, all have some sort, bigger or lesser, sort of influence of those intelligences. Great. Those intelligences. May they be good, godly, divine, or evil, Luciferian and satanic ones.
Richard: I want you just to cast yourself back and try to remember when was the last time you had a conversation with anyone about satanic influences as a reality for our everyday lives.
Not just a subject for grotesque Hollywood movies about rare cases of possession. It gives us pause, doesn't it? If this is what's happening, then the lack of study about it is alarming. Well, we'll have more to come in our series on treating evil in the modern world as our series continues here on the Stop Radio Network. That's our program for this time.
This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Thanks a lot for joining us. Hope the conversations have been interesting. Talk to you next time. We
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Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. And you smoke because? My body craves nicotine. Ah, so it's physical. An addiction, yeah. But when do you light up,
Richard: anyway? Oh,
when I'm stressed, can't cope with the client, under a lot of pressure.
Uh-huh, so smoking helps you feel less stressed. Yeah, and if I stop, I'll become like a beached whale. It also keeps you slim, then. Slim, now you're getting it. Yeah, that's kind of a mental gymnastics you're doing there. You should hear what I say about my drinking. Inversion. It's killing us. A message from the STOP the Destruction of the World Association. Stop na.org illness lies in our resistance to consciousness Norberto Keppe disinverting the human being and society this is the stop radio network
