Richard Lloyd Jones: Welcome to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. A couple of thousand years ago, consideration of virtue was part of everyday common man discourse. The Greeks gave considerable attention to virtue, culminating in Aristotle's influential writings on moral and intellectual virtues. Before him, Confucius proposed personal virtue as the way to a good life. The Bible also has hundreds of passages about the importance of virtue.
Today, public discourse is muted and people lament the loss of the byproducts of virtue. Like falling self-discipline and rising selfishness. Not to mention the rampant corruption at all levels of modern society that makes us fear that virtue is in fact long gone. As a small indicator of this, a graph of the frequency of words occurring in books over time shows a rapid rise of the word technology in the past 40 years, against a two-century slide in virtue.
In Norberto Keppe's integral psychoanalysis, though, virtue is essential for a healthy human being and society. So we'll go against the trend today. The energy of virtue today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Our Thinking with Somebody Else's Head programs are also available one by one through iTunes podcasts or wherever fine podcasts are found.
And I invite you to learn more about this very important science called Analytical Trilogy.
Well, virtue, it seems to me, was part of the everyday life of the generation before mine. My parents seemed to inhabit a simpler moral universe where good and evil weren't so relative.
There is a much bigger moral gray area today, I think. I remember Nick Naylor, the big tobacco lobbyist from the movie Thank You for Smoking, counseling his son about the need for flexible morals in his business and admiring the skill of the screenwriter in capturing that subtle nuance. I've often wondered if Jesus' admonition, let he who has no sin throw the first stone, would even have the impact today it had 2,000 years ago, so muddy has become our moral vision.
But one of the key ingredients needed for healing here at Dr. Keppe's International Society of Analytical Trilogy, based on 50 years of clinical experience, is faith and honesty, and that points to a rather fundamental aspect of virtue, that it's an essential requirement for living well because it's connected to our basic human structure. And that makes the banalization of virtue a serious thing.
We look down our noses at virtue as if it's an irrelevant and outdated dinosaur from a time long past at our peril. After all, if virtue was once part of the recipe for success and happiness in life, why wouldn't that still be true today? So our purpose on the program today is to take a small step towards making virtue relevant again. When we come back, Dr.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco joins me to look at the energy of virtue when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns on the Stop Radio Network. Thank you
for listening to the most relevant conversations in the world about stopping the destruction of ourselves and the planet.
So
Richard: you don't want to stop cutting trees because... I make money. Uh-huh, but if we keep cutting them...
Well,
it affects the weather a little. Ooh, a lot, actually.
And it contributes to global warming. Well, that's kind of serious. And destroys the ecosystem. So what'd I get you to stop? Well, if they paid me the same money as stop cutting trees that I get for cutting them. Well, that's an interesting way to look at it. If I don't cut the trees, someone else will.
Susan Berkley: Inversion. It's killing us. A message from the STOP the Destruction of the World Association.
StopNA.org.
Thinking with
Richard: Somebody Else's Head is on the Stop Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and we are here with Dr. Cláudia Barron-Harper-Shako again. But before I enter with her, I just want to remind you about our various sites and how you can contact our show, listen to our show, and, of course, how you can pass it on to other people.
So we have a really great website that our friendly web designer in Edmonton, Alberta, has put together, Will Lajeunesse.
We're available through iTunes, iTunes radio stations. We're in the News Talk section there, Stop Radio Network. We have a Facebook page, I think. I haven't checked
that out lately. I spend so little time on Facebook, but I think we have a Facebook page.
We have a Twitter account.
Richard: I mean, I don't know what this makes. On our website, there's actually a place where you can leave us a voice message if you want. So that would be great if you did that. If you had any questions for us to consider in our program or any observations about what we're doing, that would be absolutely marvelous. So do try to pass on to other people because this is how we grow.
We've been having some listeners, Cláudia, from Vietnam recently and many from Brazil.
Many of our students from our various programs are listening as they drive into work in the horrendous traffic that we have in São Paulo. They use their time to listen to our radio program. So that's marvelous and wonderful. And we have, I think, 600,000 downloads of programs. So we have a lot of people listening and knowing what we're doing, but there's always room for more.
So, you know, we don't want to be overly voracious about this, but really this message needs to get out to more people. So don't be afraid to pass it on to your friends and family. Hi, Cláudia. Hello, Richard.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Hello, everybody on the
Richard: call. Yes. We are exploring, I think, expanding from our last program about spirituality in the modern world. And Dr. Keppe has been talking a lot about this.
In fact, every Sunday evening, he has us to his clinic, a whole group of us, 50 or 60 people, to watch films about spiritual phenomena.
It could be about exorcism, could be about demonic possession, these kinds of themes, because he's really jumping into this more than I've ever seen. I've been here for 16 years, and I haven't seen this focus before. I know you, in the past, had a lot of emphasis on this. But maybe we could begin by trying to find out what's the difference between how Keppe sees this problem of demonic possession and exorcism and how the traditional Catholic Church, particularly, or the Spiritists, see this.
What's the difference in how Keppe's approaching this idea, Cláudia?
Cláudia: Again, there is a big gap between science and theology, right?
Richard: Yeah, oh, my gosh. A big gap. Yeah. They don't even talk to each other, really. I think theology is trying to integrate science, but I'm
Cláudia: not sure science is… Yeah, but how do they integrate?
They come and they say, okay, so if we see a problem, a manifestation of like a mental or spiritual disturbance in a person, we need to check. Is this a case for psychiatrists or is this a case for exorcism? They separate. They say, we need to distinguish either there is a mental illness, emotional illness, or a spiritual problem of possession, obsession. And as usual, Keppe brings together the separation.
Richard: Yeah, he puts them together. Yeah. There's no separation in Keppe's work.
Cláudia: Yes, all united. It's a unity. So according to Keppe's perception, there is not a case where there is this spiritual manifestation of demons, that there is not a severe mental problem together as a basis, as a ground. And vice versa. And vice versa. There is not an illness, whatever illness, whatever suffering, without the influence, a strong influence of spirits.
So there is no separation. And that's how he treats the situation. So
Richard: is he reconciling medicine and science with theology again? Is he in some way bringing those together?
Cláudia: Yes, yes, for the same reason. There are some cases where you see psychotic people having these convulsions and those called epileptic attacks or hysterical behavior that just prayer or analysis sometimes, analysis, is not enough to hold that manifestation, which is very destructive and many times self-destructive or heterodestructive, to hold back that person and curb his manifestations of pathology in a more serious manner.
They can commit suicide, they can kill people, they can destroy their health, their bodies. So it is a situation when the person is menacing his own life
Richard: or other
Cláudia: people's lives, and they cannot be curbed just by words or laws or something.
So they must get some medicines. The idea would be just to get those medicines for a period of time. And the shorter, the better, because all medicines have an enormous amount of side effects.
Richard: Well, and even they kind of cover the symptoms, don't they?
Cláudia: They diminish the perception, the degree of consciousness, the sensitivity and sensibility of the person. So it's really to curb, physically curb.
But the mental, the emotional, and the spiritual problem remains there. So that's why one must continue with the process of conscientization with that client or with that person.
Richard: For Keppe, consciousness is everything.
Cláudia: Everything. So if a person in a crisis comes to our clinic and if he's taking drugs, like medical drugs, psychiatric drugs, we don't tell them to stop. But we work with the psychiatrist and we increase the degree of consciousness.
We deal with this emotional and spiritual aspect. So little by little, or according to the perception of the psychiatrist, they can leave behind the need for the drugs. Right.
Richard: As they're starting to deal with the consciousness, the need for the drugs is not so necessary for them. But, you know, you're talking about extreme cases now, these psychotic episodes, and the same thing we see in exorcism movies, right?
But severe case is somebody who is possessed by a demon and who needs to be exercised or who needs psychiatric treatment in the old model. But Keppe sees exorcism very differently, doesn't he? He sees that the spiritual phenomena, the influence spiritually is not only in the psychotic or possessed cases.
Cláudia: Yes. So here, going a little bit back to this severe cases. Yeah.
If the person not only agree with the exorcism, with this ritual, they must agree, otherwise the exorcist will not perform the exorcism.
They must give their permission. But not only that, but they must want, really want, to become conscious of the involvement they have with these demons. Because no one is a victim of demons.
Richard: No one. Well, that's very different from what the exorcism movies tell
Cláudia: us. No one is a victim or only a victim. We can say we are very much deceived by those clever spirits and very intelligent spirits.
But in some way, to some extent, no spirit can invade the body of a person if the person does not allow this to happen. And this is something that all exorcists are conscious about. So, why and when do we permit this invasion? And here comes the work of pathology, like the pathology side of the work. One must analyze and see and know ourselves more in depth and see deep down, why did we call those demons to our lives or why did we accept them?
And where we were weak and pathological, or how can you say, upside down in our attitudes, that we saw advantage in a demonic attitude.
Richard: But this is pretty subtle, because nobody thinks, a demonic attitude we associate with killing babies and, you know, pretty serious. We don't think of ourselves as baby killers, Cláudia.
Cláudia: We are not, but not all of us. Not all of us.
I hope nobody listening to the
Richard: program is saying there are many, thousands,
millions of baby killers. Of course. But,
Cláudia: you know, Richard, if we go to the first cause of all causes, why there is evil in the planet. Yeah. Why there is suffering and pain and disease and death in the planet. If God is absolutely goodness, truth and beauty, and a loving being, how come there is evil and so much evil in the planet?
Richard: Boy, that's a big question that many people have wondered, right?
You even see it in the films when there's a crisis. People say, God has abandoned us. There is no God here. So this is a huge issue.
Cláudia: So you see Lucifer everywhere. You see Lucifer in all action, which is against life, against goodness, against beauty, against truth, all lies. The world is immersed in lying, deceiving, exploiting, hurting each other, in egotism, And all those seven sins, like sensorial sins also, like
Richard: drugs, vices, laziness, greed, envy, pride, luxury.
Luxury is lust.
Cláudia: Lust. There is evil
Richard: all around, and even in little babies and little children, you see evil being
Cláudia: manifested.
Richard: Yeah, they're doing studies of child psychopaths now, which is very scary for people. But before we go there, this idea that we see Lucifer everywhere, I think this is really important to explore. But who is he? I mean, many people, who's Lucifer?
Who are these evil spirits that are invading? What is this all about, Cláudia?
Cláudia: So, Lucifer and his evil spirits, they are creatures of God. But, God did not create them evil. In the beginning, God could ever, never, never, never create an evil being. Nothing evil could come from God, because it's totally 100% goodness. But when he created the angels and the archangels, Lucifer is a fallen archangel or upside-down archangel.
Let's call them upside-down angels because they are inverted. So when God created those beautiful beings and created man and woman, a man and a woman, a mankind, they created all beautiful and all good. But he could never create beings without freedom, because love, Richard, is all about freedom. One cannot oblige anyone to love us, to accept us. Being, the being in itself, is equal freedom.
But not freedom to die, freedom to hurt, freedom to, you know, freedom to love, freedom to grow, freedom to enjoy everything that is created.
Richard: To follow
Cláudia: the goodness that we were created inside. To follow, to vibrate with it. But freedom in loving or accepting another being is all about God. And he could not create a man and he could not create angels without this freedom to accept him or not.
So that's his law, to be free, not to be a tyrant. Right. And a quantity of angels got envious and did not accept. They didn't want to love God. So they denied and they became broken angels, like schizophrenic. They divided themselves. They split inside. So diabolic is dual. It's this division. It's like we, when we have this inner split division, and we all have this inner division, and if this division goes too far, we become psychotic, schizophrenic, epileptic, and possessed.
Richard: And this
Cláudia: is the manifestation of
Richard: this evil that you see. So let's come back on that point in just a moment. I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, the spiritual history of humankind, how the demons operate inside our lives. What is exorcism in the modern world? Does it have relevance? Is it important? We think it has big importance, and so we'll discuss that more when we come back in just a moment on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
International Society
Susan: of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil.
There
Richard: are thousands of organizations around the world doing important and excellent work to save the planet. But no one is doing what the STOP the Destruction of the World Association is doing.
Cláudia: What we address is the fundamental cause of all these problems, which is the human being.
And this is a subject of a science called psychosocial pathology.
Richard: Our work at STOP is based on the advanced psychosocial science emerging from the School of Analytical Trilogy, founded by Dr. Norberto Keppe. In essence, we have the world we have because of what is going on inside the human psyche. I
Cláudia: find the discovery that Dr. Keppe did about psychological inversion a major step forward that will help not only the psychological sciences, the social sciences, but all the other areas of human endeavor.
Richard: Modern technology and science have failed to bring us more wisdom. And we now pose a greater threat to life on Earth than ever before.
Cláudia: We are upside down. We see the world upside down in life. And we built an upside down society with upside-down laws, values, habits, systems, institutions.
Richard: The idea that we're achieving economic growth is pure illusion.
Actually, we're becoming poorer and poorer. The cause of all this is our inverted philosophy of life.
Cláudia: When we want to put money much more valuable than feelings, friendships, arts, spirituality. When we value arrogant people in society instead of humble people, all of these inverted values cause a lot of anxiety, unhappiness, unsatisfaction because we cannot live against our essence.
Richard: Our work at STOP is to help humanity become conscious of these root causes of our destruction and take the necessary steps to heal them.
Cláudia: We are creating mechanisms, instruments of survival and development to live a happier life. And this is based on the trilogical science from Norberto Keppe. So this is our proposal.
Richard: To find out more about the STOP the Destruction of the World Association, go to stopna.org.
And you smoke because?
My body craves nicotine. Ah, so it's physical. An addiction, yeah. But when do you light up
Richard: anyway? Oh, when I'm stressed, can't cope with the client, under a lot of pressure. Uh-huh, so smoking helps
you feel less stressed. Yeah, and if I stop, I'll become like a beached whale. It also keeps you slim then. Slim, now you're getting it. Yeah, that's kind of a mental gymnastics you're doing there.
You should hear what I say about my drinking.
Susan: Inversion, it's killing us. A message from the STOP the Destruction of the World Association. StopNA.org. Hi my
name is thorn and i love listening to the stop radio network. It helps me to start off my day in a really
Richard: good mode. The most relevant conversations in the world today are on the stop radio network.
We are back. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the stop radio network.
I don't want to lose your train of thought. We have to take a little break there. But this um luciferian presence is not just a mythology then. No it's not just a
Cláudia: story for children. No, and also this has been present in the life of human beings in this planet since the first day you have something written down. So, possessions and all these shamans.
Shamans, yes.
Richard: Shamans and all those. Witch doctors and. Since
Cláudia: the beginning of mankind, you know and you absolutely know and you hear and you read about possessions and spirits possessing bodies. Of human beings. And this is so common, Richard, so common. The problem is that if you feel like possessed, and if you are possessed, and some people go to the churches and ask for exorcism presently, because when we started to study this phenomenon, just a few, like you could count in the fingers of one hand, maybe less than five fingers, exorcists that performed exorcism in the beginning of the 80s.
And then that's when we met Malachi Martin, which was an incredible exorcist. Since then, we started to speak a lot about the connection of mental illness and possession. There is no separation between both. All mental illness, all panic attacks, for instance, There are millions of people who suffer from panic attacks. Do they really understand that these panic attacks are absolutely connected to evil beings and spirits?
Because there is this understanding, Richard, of science, according to Keppe, in this energetic level, energies, energies. So we are energy. Angels are energy, a manifestation of God's energy. Animals are energy. Stones are energy. Air is energy. The vacuum of the universe is plenty of energy, magnetism. So all this physics that can't be united with theology, we understand better these levels of vibration.
Richard: There we are, levels of vibration. Levels. Not
Cláudia: physical. Scholar energy, scales of vibration. Right. So the higher, the more essential, it's our behavior, our intentions, we vibrate in a higher level. So we are closer to God and to angels. If we lower our vibration, we are tuning to other levels of beings like animals. Sometimes we are like animals. We behave like animals, you know, in a negative way because human beings are not animals.
So we should not behave like animals. We can respect and love animals as they are, but we are not animals, so we should be more like embodied angels.
Richard: So you're bringing us then to the biblical story, the story that's in many cultures, of the origins of human beings. Yes.
Cláudia: It's not just a fairy tale. This is a real world. The theological understanding and the physical energetic understanding of beings is that when we refuse the higher vibration, we are very much in tune and attracted to the lowest vibrations, which is hell, which is like, and you go little by little in this descend, descending the scales.
And you can even compare it to steps. You go down and down and down. If you see a person having a drug addiction, they go down and down and they become more and more similar to demons. And they start to vibrate, to resonate with demons. Yes. And these are the severe mental illnesses. But there is no way to get back to an upper vibration if the same individual, if they don't understand, if they are not conscious of what is happening to them, the descent will continue.
Richard: Yeah. So, Lucifer and one-third of the angels followed him, right?
Cláudia: It seems the traditional says around
Richard: one-third. Okay, so they were created within the same goodness that all of us are created, but rejected it out of their envy, out of their desires to be bigger than they were, to be something else. We do the same thing in our lives every day, don't we?
We refuse to do what's correct. We refuse to eat well. We refuse to get exercise. We refuse to have good thoughts about people. We harbor resentments. We hold many jealous feelings, ideas. In this sense, this is the vibrational level you're talking about.
Cláudia: Oh, Richard, it was a long time ago when human beings thought virtue was something necessary. Yes, yes. Now, virtue is a word.
Richard: Beautiful word, by the way.
Cláudia: That comes from Greek and means power, strength, energetic strength. So virtue is a behavior that one must have and requires a lot of sacrifice. So we do not
Richard: fall. Sacrifice not of ourselves, but of this inverted desire, this will that's against ourselves, right?
Cláudia: Yeah, but it requires
Richard: tremendous discipline and sacrifice to be virtuous and not
Cláudia: to suffer.
So if we want not to suffer, we must do a sacrifice and be virtuous.
Because then we go up in our scalar energy and we can even become happy beings. Enjoy happiness.
Richard: Imagine that.
Cláudia: So we must sacrifice in order to be really happy. This seems conflictual. Totally
Richard: strange, yes.
Cláudia: But it's a paradox which Jesus already brought in his teachings. If one must be exalted, if one must, if one want to be in glory, One must accept our weakness and our smallness, our lack of importance.
One must be very humble. And then we can go up in our energetic level.
Richard: And why is it a sacrifice not to suffer?
Cláudia: Because we are upside down. Yeah. We have this mark in our genetics, psychogenetics. We are fallen beings also, not totally as demons are. But when we are born, we have this flaw in our psychogenetics. We even are born with something that causes the deterioration, the corruption, the entropy of ourselves and our being.
We are born so different from what we end up in our late days, right? Yeah. And sometimes we deteriorate so much, even psychologically, spiritually. If we are not careful, we deteriorate so much that we have very, very little to do with what we were when we
Richard: were children.
Cláudia: Yeah. So this deterioration, which is like a condemnation, it's because in the beginning, and this is something interesting, Because sometimes people say, but why?
Why would God allow this to happen to children that are innocent beings? So many children being killed and in war and starving. How come if God is such a good being, he would allow this to happen? And here comes the concept of freedom, Richard. And also the concept of kingdom of God. God created a humanity. He didn't create one being and another being and another being.
He created a humanity as a concept.
Everybody enjoying and living together and loving each other and being happy together with
Richard: Him. Like He created trees. Like He created fish. Like He created waters. A full thing. So He
Cláudia: created a society. A perfect society. Which theologians call Eden, the Garden of Eden, paradise. This was God's society. I don't see God's society necessarily everybody naked and eating fruits from the trees.
I understand that there was an enormous development in this society. A very advanced society.
Richard: A very advanced
Cláudia: society. So when he created society, he created society more or less at his image as well. So, society has a hierarchy.
Richard: Hierarchy.
Cláudia: Societies have like leaders and laws as there are in heaven. So, as we are upside down now, the powerful, the people in position of power are the worst ones.
Oh my God, are the psychopaths, are the evil guys.
And we, the people, are the best. We are better than they are.
Cláudia: But take notice. If one person that is here today can and they do, if they jump to a position of power, if they reach that, they will do there the same thing that those other evil people are doing. So this inversion, this inversion in energy, in direction of energy, it's such an enormous problem for the planet that this is a must, this is urgent to conscientize inversion.
Inversion in energy, inversion in our mentality, in our values, in our organizations, everything is upside down.
Richard: You talked about it in a previous program about how, imagine 7 billion people on the planet with bad thoughts, bad feelings. Imagine the energetic pollution. My
Cláudia: God. It's unbelievable. I missed to give the answer for the question I made. So let's go back. Why God allow this?
Because he created a humanity in freedom. So, if you choose, if the people chooses or choose a bad leader, God respects the choice. Understand? Yes. So, here we are like we have the freedom to choose who we want to follow. And people don't normally want to follow God in their actions. So, they don't want a normal society. And we are submissive to our society, understand?
If we would have kept the original laws and the original organization and mentality of the previous society that God gave, we would be all helping each other, all in, we would not even be dying. So if we are suffering, if we see wars and all this injustice and all this famine and all these horrors and all this pollution, mental, energetic, and all this pollution on the air and the seas and everything, it's because humanity as a whole and nations have chosen the bad guys, the demonic guys to follow.
Like in Brazil, the president that was most voted was the most corrupt of all. So, we have freedom. Now, we are deceived, Richard. We are very much deceived. We are a kind of blind. So, that's why sometimes we find a person that God prepares to bring help and awareness for humanity. But what human beings normally do to those men and women.
Richard: Well, this is very clear, right?
Yeah. Put them in prison, cut off their heads in some way, destroy them.
Cláudia: They don't feel any attraction
Richard: to what they say and no attraction, no appeal. It's kind of an attraction when the person dies, we go through the life and isn't it wonderful what they did, but we don't follow them. And in a sense, I think this idea of blaming God for the problems we have created is exactly the same as a psychopath blaming his victim.
Cláudia: Exactly, exactly.
Richard: And that's the same as Lucifer and his followers do so far.
They
Cláudia: blame God for everything. And they want us to think accordingly.
Richard: And they want to create the idea that they can bring us fantastic things.
Cláudia: Yeah, the liberation.
Richard: Forbidden fruit is.
Cláudia: So, as Lucifer is the most delusional being of all, He is the father of all lies. So what he claims and what he offers is non-existent. The only possible existence is within God's creation and reality.
What is delusional, the illusions, the daydreaming, the hallucinations, all these ideas of granginess or this world of attraction and pleasure. This is all an illusional, delusional world and dimension. So, if you want to be happy with Lucifer and his offerings and his gifts and pleasures, you will be upside down, like you will be under his suffering and his attacks and his deprivation, and we will be deprived.
Not we will have something more, but we will be in deprival.
Deprival?
Richard: Yes, thinking that we're getting an advantage. This is the craziness of it all.
Cláudia: If you want to be free to drink whatever you please, what is going to happen?
Richard: You know what will happen.
Cláudia: If you want to stay in bed until whenever you please, what will happen? If you want to eat as much as you want, what will happen? If you want to have sex as much as you want with as many people as you like, what will happen?
It's a deprivation. From the good, from health, from peace.
Richard: Weird to think that we're not free to do whatever we want, isn't it? Well, this goes back to the idea of virtue, in that there is a behavior that is ideal, that has already been defined. A virtuous life is not something fluid, something that changes depending on circumstances or anything like that. And it's certainly not obsolete either.
Virtue has real power because it links us to the essential nature of life, which brings all that essential energy that gives us health and happiness and even meaning in our lives. That's our program for this time. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Stop Radio Network.
A key inversion in science.
Always we are trying to extract energy from a material element.
Richard: And its negative consequences.
We provoke serious imbalances in nature.
Richard: Corrected now with the Keppe Motors disinversion of physics.
And we developed a way to have mechanical power with very little electricity.
Cláudia: This will make a big change, not only in energetic efficiency, but also it will bring better energy in homes because it's magnetic energy.
Richard: The Keppe Motor. New technology for a new world.
Back in 1986, Norberto Keppe wrote a book that predicted the worldwide economic crisis we're facing today. Liberation of the People critiques the pathology of power that lies at the base of our inverted social system and points the way out. This is essential reading for anyone wanting to find out how we got in such a mess and how we can get out.
Home to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head and healing through consciousness,
