I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Well, we're into the week before Christmas now, and I, like you perhaps, am beginning to look forward to 2011 and what it will bring. I'm expecting it will not be a year of business as usual in any way, but will continue to build on the vital consciousness for all of us emerging from Norberto Keppe's institute.
His School of Analytical Trilogy really gives us a solid ground from which to observe and understand what's going on around us, in our families and in our social structures. You know, this is no small thing, actually, and bringing this consciousness is what we all do here at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy constantly. In particular, Dr. Keppe has a number of books, over 30, I think, at last count, a number of which have been translated into English.
And I'd like to give you a couple of sites where you can download those books. Some of them are in PDF, or you can order them from our virtual bookstore.
These are both great sites that'll give you a lot of information, particularly our Healing Through Consciousness site.
We also have a number of video segments from Kepes' incredible TV shows. Which run in over 20 countries and in four or five languages. By the way, if you like what we're doing on this program, you're going to love to hear about this science from the developer of it himself, Dr. Norberto Keppe. These programs are at the highest level of intellectual and philosophical thought available on Earth today, and they would be a welcome addition to your community access channels.
If you're interested in approaching them, let me know. I'll help you with the approach there. Joneshealing at gmail.com. Be great to see some of Keppe's programs get into more outlets around North America, Asia, Europe, anywhere that you think they might be useful. Before we get into our Christmas show for 2010, I wanted to just make a comment about WikiLeaks before inviting Gilbert Gambucci in to give us a sociopathological analysis of that situation.
First, in Keppe's work, he has corrected the wrong premises of the fathers of psychology who asserted that we had a natural unconscious where we're stored an enormous amount of dangerous antisocial instincts along with a multitude of repressed incidents and emotions from our past. To Freud and others, we were held prisoner to these indecent desires and animal instincts and could do little to free ourselves from their often tyranny.
Keppe has clarified this. We are not unconscious at all, but do suffer from a tremendous desire to hide unpleasant things from our consciousness. We inconscientize, in Keppe's language, what we don't want to see. And so our problem is actually an attitude of not wanting to see. Well, this is being displayed in grand form in the current WikiLeaks debate, isn't it? With the release of those thousands of diplomatic cables and communications, we now have an opportunity to bring into the light of day what some of those in power would have repressed and hidden away.
And they're trotting out some pretty heavy artillery to keep us in the dark, too. Publishing this info helps the terrorists. These are national security documents, the publishing of which puts our people in the field at risk, etc., etc. I hope you're not falling for that. Because, you know, buried in the mountain of information released on WikiLeaks are a series of documents from the U.S.
Army and CIA about how to artificially prop up support for the Afghan war among the European community. Some of those documents are entitled things like Public Apathy Allows Leaders to Ignore Voters and Why Counting on Apathy May Not Be Enough. Those documents alone we should be very grateful to WikiLeaks for publishing. What the powerful are doing in the shadows, behind the mask of national security, we must know about.
Consciousness is our greatest friend, not our enemy, as the powerful, backed-up-by-the-most-psychotic-media-pundits would have us believe. Let's hear a little bit more on this issue from Gilbert Gambucci today.
Gilbert Gambucci: Well, Rich, these documents and videos that have been coming out recently on this site, Wikileaks, show essentially what goes on, at least a little bit, what goes on in the upper echelons of power. And not only political power, but, or military power We see these videotapes, what things, atrocities that take place The reality of the situation But also economic power You know, here in Brazil with Dr.
Kempi's work The social scientist, psychoanalyst Norberto Keppe We differentiate between political power and economic power Because political power is linked with democracy It's a democratic structure. Economic power, at least in the United States, is linked with capitalism. It's an economic structure. The two are two different systems cohabitating at the same time. And what we see as a result of these videos and information, well, until it was shut down, you know, is that it's the truth.
Everybody agrees, well, okay, this is true. They're not fabricated. It's real. And the mainstream media does, it's been shown. They do have access to many of these things. But they don't show the public. So this is a problem. Really, the media is supposed to be the social consciousness. You know, our social consciousness, we depend on the media for that. Well, the media, they form a very strong barrier between us.
And we call them economically powerful people. That is, those who dominate the political sector, those who even dominate the military structure. And these documents are showing what they do exactly, at least the ramifications of what they do. And so they're very frightened by this. The powerful people. The powerful, yeah,
Richard: very frightened by this.
Gilbert: And it's a typical, classical case of attacking the messenger of the bad news.
Rather than seeing what the problem is and solve the problem. But we prefer to attack the messenger of the problem.
Richard: And I think one of the real problems, Gilbert, is that all this stuff's being done in the background without general knowledge, not being spread in a general sense. So when it's released in the form of 250,000 diplomatic cables, it's kind of a shock.
Oh, my gosh. Most of it's pretty gossipy. It doesn't have so much meat to a lot of it. But the fact that it's going on behind the scenes, there's all of this subterfuge, all of this diplomatic circling that's going on behind the scenes that we never hear about. This is the game that Keppe's talking about a lot in his book, Liberation of the People, isn't it?
Yes, that
Gilbert: we never hear about. This is the problem, Rich. And in fact, these things that have been so-called leaked, it shows a little picture of what really goes on. There's a lot more atrocities that happen that this site doesn't show. And people's reaction to it, Rich, I find very interesting because there's a psychological factor here, the reality of psychic life. When we don't want to see a problem, this question of attacking the messenger, it's attacking consciousness of the problem.
So this shows that we have the idea that if we don't see the problem, it doesn't exist. Everything's okay. If we don't look at it, if we don't see it, it's everything all right, which is something completely out of reality. And so we see the mainstream media, they're owned by the economically powerful people. This is a problem. You know, for example, Gulf and Western was bought out.
They bought out Paramount Pictures. So what do they want with cinema? Of course, this is a very powerful means of media. Exxon, or rather Rockefeller family, you know, Exxon bought out Metro-Golden Mayor. Murdoch is known to own a chain of television stations. And the list goes on and on. The media, throughout the past 30 years, all mainstream media nowadays is owned by what we call economically powerful people.
Yeah, it's four
Richard: or five groups now that control most of the mainstream media in the United States of America. It's owned by very few
Gilbert: people. So we don't get to the point of who's behind these things that happen. Do you know, Rich, supposedly the commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces is the president, but who decides whether or not the United States goes to war, for example?
Well, it's the president who declares war. He's kind of the political puppet out front, but the decisions are made by other people. And for example, in Michael Moore's most recent film called Capitalism, A Love Story, he shows, there's an interesting clip where he shows how Ronald Reagan was completely dominated by his chief of staff at that time. Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan, who's the chairman of Merrill Lynch, which is the richest and biggest retail brokerage firm in the world, so I mean he's representing the financial, the international bankers
Richard: you're talking about. The scene where Reagan's giving a speech and Ronald Reagan leans over to him and says, you're going to have to speed it up.
This scene you're talking about, right?
Gilbert: Yes, and you can see Reagan's attitude in that.
Richard: He's just completely so
Gilbert: submittant to these powerful people. A little group of psychotic billionaires.
Richard: Who tells the president to speed it up, right? Only a guy who has power over the president. And
Gilbert: so they're very afraid of these WikiLeaks. And, you know, I'm afraid that Julian Assange is going to be the more and more attacked, of course.
And what is interesting is how we don't want to see. What is really going on. Many people, they prefer to not see it. And of course, the media, they use certain terms for us. To stay with this attitude of not wanting to see the reality. For example, they use terms like national security. Things like this. To deceive us into not looking at the situation.
No, it needs to be kept secret. You should not be aware of this. Strike this from your consciousness. Because it's a question of national security. Or it's a question of dealing with terror. They make up any kind of a thing. So that we don't become aware. Of who's behind the atrocities. That are happening in our world. And you know, they're the Rockefellers.
It's a little group of people. Rothschilds, Morgan family. The Carnegie family. Oppenheimers, the Schiffs. The Warburgs and a few others. It's an amazingly small group of people. Who are well organized. And they're little secret sect societies. All of these societies, Rich. At the top, the top part. They're the same people there. And they're the wealthiest people in the world. It's one little group of people.
Who call the shots in our world. This
Richard: is really great you're bringing this up. Because what I'm seeing with this whole situation is this enormous smokescreen that they throw up all the time, where Secretary of State Clinton, the White House Press Secretary are screaming because diplomatic lives are at risk and this is going to jeopardize the national security of the United States.
They're not angry because of that, Gilbert. They're angry because the whistle has been blown on what's really going on behind the scenes. This is what they don't want us to see. And so, Gilbert, what you're talking about here is essential for us to wake up to and stop buying this BS that they spin all the time that national security is at stake.
It's much, much deeper than that.
Gilbert: Yeah, so, Rich, we see guys like this Bill O'Reilly, for example, from Fox News, saying things like Julian Assange, the co-founder and editor of WikiLeaks, that, quote, he should be executed or put in prison for life. Every American should be outraged with the situation. And as I said, they use these terms, national security, security, so that we don't become aware of what's really going on.
And of course, the media is owned by the powerful. So they act on their behalf.
Richard: Especially Fox News. Yes, especially Fox News. Rupert
Gilbert: Murdoch, yeah. And you know, Rich, one of the points in Michael Moore's recent film that he showed clearly how Washington is completely dominated by the powerful, as we call them, the economically powerful. It doesn't matter what they decide. They're usurped by these international bankers.
So, look, our federal government doesn't represent the people at all. What goes on in Washington represents the powerful, the economically powerful. They have taken control of the situation. And so, if we don't want this consciousness, if we try to continue to inconscientize, is the word that we use, this process of not becoming aware of something that is right in front of us, then, Rich, I'm afraid that we will suffer the consequences of having fallen into the hands of the most dangerous group of people on our planet.
Richard: Good point, Gilbert. And Keppe's work in helping us to analyze this pathology of power is monumental, in my opinion. Without that knowledge, without a scientific clinical overview of the aggression, subterfuge, and manipulation practiced by the powerful, we are under their control without perceiving what's going on. This knowledge is missing from all of the political economic analysis going on in the media today, in my opinion, and is well articulated in Keppe's incredible book, Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power, once again available on our website at HealingThroughConsciousness.com.
Well, we're into the Christmas week. Let's try and analyze a little bit more and look at the situation of the human being spiritually, our relationship with spirit, with Christmastime, and with God. Coming up next on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. Don't go away.
The audience is listening to Positive World Radio, the authentic voice of planet Earth.
We
Richard: are back on the Positive World Radio Network. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, your host, Richard Lloyd Jones. Welcome to our Christmas show here. And last week, we kind of warmed up for this with a fascinating look at materialism. And I want to continue that a little bit today with our special guest, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, because I find that Keppe's science, Norberto Keppe's science of Analytical Trilogy, trilogy because it's the reunion again with theology and philosophy coming together with science, so it's a scientific theological philosophical view of what's going on in human society and all human activities.
This makes it pretty interesting, because we've cut philosophy and theology out of the study of science and so science has become strictly a materialistic thing, looking only at what we can measure, see, evaluate with our machines and stuff. And there's a whole other aspect that needs to be considered when we're considering reality. So that's what I want to get into today with our special guest, Dr.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. Let's see where we go today. Cláudia, in a previous, I was playing an excerpt from one of our earlier podcasts for a bunch of students. And I also included it in our last week's show because I found it so powerful. Where you said that Dr. Keppe told you once that he felt that materialism, commercialism, materialism particularly, was worse maybe than drug addiction or alcoholism.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Do you remember this conversation we had? I remember.
Richard: And in this you said because it caused an enormous, materialism caused, because it's very sensorial, caused an enormous socioeconomic drama And it caused us a terrible decay in the spirituality of
Gilbert: humanity.
Richard: And here we are, coming close to Christmas, and this is never more evident. We never have this consciousness more than we have at this time of how commercialized we become, how materialistic we become, in a time which is supposed to be about something much more beautiful.
We have lost a lot, haven't we?
Cláudia: Yes, we have.
Richard: This orientation into material senses. Yeah.
Cláudia: So when I think about Plato and his ideas of Christianity, that the matter is a big problem. We exchange spirit for matter. Yeah. And material world more or less like this, the body, the flesh. But the way they speak, it's not really clear to us. Because the matter in itself is all good.
So we can't blame the instincts, we can't blame the body. The body is something that belongs to God. God created our bodies. God created all material richnesses. The exchange we did of the spiritual, the glorious, for something so small, so unsatisfiable.
Richard: Unsatisfactory?
Cláudia: Unsatisfactory, yes.
Richard: Well, unsatisfiable, too. We'd never be satisfied, but it's like
Cláudia: it leaves a hole in us, doesn't it? Yes, because you know why?
I would like you to read this third paragraph. All this glorification book is a masterpiece. And now that we are getting closer to Christmas time, Richard, I feel that we should be reading this book every day because the vision Keppe brought about Christ, it's different from all the churches, even Christian churches.
Richard: Dr. Keppe's book is called Glorification. It is available in English and it's a great blessing that it is.
Our great friend Margaret Kowarek, spent a lot of time to translate this book to try to capture the spirit from the Portuguese into English, which is not
Cláudia: easy. It's a very inspirational book. That's why it's so difficult to translate.
Richard: Yeah. And on the cover of this book, it says, called Glorification, it says, A more complete comprehension of the Creator, achieved through scientific experimentation, revealing the true God that institutionalized religion has hidden from us.
Wow. So this paragraph that Cláudia has chosen me to read is from the third section. And I'm quoting now. When Christianity affirmed that man was made in the image and semblance of God, It was referring to something whose dimension is far beyond our comprehension. Is it possible, for example, to understand the essence of life? Do you want me to continue? And then it continues.
The human being is always better than we think he is. That is why he does not feel well when he is not acting in accordance with his magnitude. And that is why every analysis of man portrays him as inferior to what he really is.
Cláudia: So here we are in an impasse. Because if you look at mankind presently, if we look at the way human beings behave presently, you will never compare human behavior today with the behavior of Jesus Christ.
No. So you cannot compare at all. So what happened that we got so far from our true essence? Because our revelation, even other religions bring the revelation that we are made at resemblance of God. So if we imagine, we wonder how Jesus Christ would behave if he would be in my place. And the difference is so enormous in his capacities, in his wisdom, in his balance, in his health, in his glory, in his fulfillment.
Everything is so... His joy, his love, every
Richard: quality. His magnetism, his beauty,
Cláudia: everybody was attracted to him. Everywhere he went multitudes went but like like compressed him to to touch him to see him to hear him speaking. So he was a true leader and because of his magnetism he was a total magnetic being. So we should be beings similar to him. So when we look at ourselves and we see what we do, how deformed we are now and how deformed, even more than we sometimes are.
Some people are so much deformed that they kill, they are like mass murderers.
Richard: You're not talking physical deformation now. You're talking like a spiritual problem in the
Cláudia: soul. I'm talking about both. I'm talking about all the suffering and the pain and the dependencies and addictions and vices and perversions of not only sexuals, but all the perversions like killing our fellow men and hating people and envying people and being so low in the vibrational scale, so much linked to the horizontal materialistic world that even nature we don't pay attention anymore.
Even beautiful music we don't hear anymore. So artists are more and more rare. Now you see only people understanding about computer systems and all this.
Richard: Or the financial world, you know.
Cláudia: Financial and money, money, money and numbers. So life became very dry, very discomfortable, uncomfortable. And we can say that we feel we are rejecting, repelling everything that comes from God. So doing so, we destroyed our true essence and our true nature.
Read a little bit more here and we will think about this. So
Richard: I'll continue from the same chapter. If our fellow being shows us more clearly what we are, not only by making us see our errors, but also by making us conscious of good, then Christ is the most perfect fellow being we have, because he is the only man, since Adam rejected truth, who did not reject his human nature.
My God. Wow.
Cláudia: My God. As I'm reading that, I'm like,
Richard: oh. How can we comment on this phrase? It's impossible. That's everything. So it's how come
we could be like this? How come we could be similar? How come we don't want to be similar? How come we reject this resemblance, Richard? Why do we do that?
Cláudia: So this is almost impossible to understand.
But that's what we do. We left behind paradise. We left behind good feelings of love and truth, and we do this every day. So that's why it's so important, this methodology, to see ourselves through the mirrors we have in other people. So what we don't like in other people, show what we don't like to see in ourselves. But many times we do the same.
Richard: Almost always, actually. Almost always. In different ways, we have to face that. So Jesus was a true human being then? Yes. Not only God, but a
Cláudia: true human being? Yes. He was the first man, as here it's written, that after Adam had a perfect
Richard: nature and did not reject his true essence, as we do with our true essences. Is this the salvation then that the religious people talk about?
Cláudia: It seems to be, Richard. And I think that at least to be solved, to be saved, I'm sorry, to be saved.
Richard: You speak about speaking Portuguese, how difficult it is. I have the same problem in English. When you're speaking about profound subjects especially, it's much more difficult to catch.
Cláudia: In order to be saved, we need two ways, an energetic work, like two ways.
We need the salvation coming from God. We could never, ever save ourselves by our own. But there is our own way to God, which is we want, we should want, we must want and accept to be saved by Him. And if we don't, he can't do anything about that. So he can't save us if we don't go to him and ask him and accept his salvation.
Richard: And being saved is not about being rescued like in a boat, right? It's about
Cláudia: saving ourselves in
Richard: some way, rescuing the part of ourselves that we've denied. It's more this, isn't it?
Cláudia: It's like a regeneration. It's like going back to accept our true essence and perceiving, realizing that pathology and sins are just attitudes. They don't belong to our essence. They destroy, they deform our essence, but they don't belong to our essence.
So it's a matter of becoming conscious that no matter negative, evil an attitude can be, it's an attitude and just an attitude. And this, by being conscientized, can be changed, can be improved. And for this we must also have, and we need, the energetic help of God, this two-way mechanism, this two-way movement. We asking and accepting the help of God and Him coming to us with all His merciful and totally infinite goodness and beauty bringing to us the energy and the salvation we need, what some religious people call the grace, in order to be saved.
So I think that at this time of the year, when we have this December 25th being the commemoration, at least a date that was determined to commemorate the birth of Jesus, to understand that we are talking about things that are much, much bigger, much, much more important and much more related to our inner core than just buying gifts and eating turkey and commemorating and exchanging gifts or even what we do most of the times.
We eat too much, we drink too much, we fight a lot. People are too envious and too angry at those times and they have more accidents. And so it seems that during this time, envy, the envy of God, this envy, this rejection, this repelling God's things are even more present because he is more clear.
Richard: It's more clear time for him. Let's come back to talk more about this wonderful book, Glorification, and this, I think, incredible subject.
I mean, it's something that if you'd told me nine years ago that I'd be having a conversation like this, I'd have said, oh, come on, that would never be possible. Now we're actually having a conversation that's, I think, really beautiful.
Back in just a moment with my special guest, Dr.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, and more about the true meaning of Christmas.
The audience is listening to Positive World Radio, the authentic voice of planet Earth.
Richard: We are back on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, the Positive World Radio Network. Richard Lloyd Jones and my special guest, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco again.
Cláudia: Can I tell something about your life, your privacy? Sure. Because you spoke about nine years ago.
Yeah. And I remember
Richard: one day we traveled on a weekend to a church, to a place, to a city, and there was a church. When I first came to Brazil.
Cláudia: Yeah, and we visited the church, but you were outside. You didn't want to come in. No,
Richard: I was very, very, very uncomfortable.
Cláudia: Yeah, you were like sitting in those... Benches
Richard: outside somewhere,
Cláudia: yeah.
Richard: Well, I was never very comfortable with the whole aspect of organized religion.
Cláudia: But this has a meaning, because organized
Richard: religions identify God with pathology, with suffering. We project onto God, and
Cláudia: religious
Richard: people do that, too. It was uncomfortable for me. I'm only now, because of Keppe's science, coming to understand what a spiritual life means, scientifically. So I never came to this through religion.
That never would have happened for me if it had come through religion. It's come through science. But I was thinking as you were speaking, here we are having a conversation on a radio program about the life of Jesus, his importance in our life, in what I hope is not being construed as a religious way. But I wanted to speak a little bit for some of the academic intellectual people that might be listening because I can feel what happens for them because I had the same reaction.
And I received a letter, I don't know, maybe a couple of years ago, Cláudia, when we were doing another program about this. And somebody said, but why do you have to use the name Jesus in a religious way? Why can't we talk about energy? Why can't we talk about the, you know, the universe, universal energy, this great love that exists in the universe?
Why do you have to separate people by talking about Jesus? And I think it would be worth addressing that, because this is an academic argument. I think it's a very spurious argument. I think it's very badly intentioned. But maybe it's good to try to address it here. What are you talking about, and why are you talking in this way about this?
Cláudia: We can name maybe three most important monotheistic religions.
The other religions are more a kind of philosophical and cultural and mystical experiences and philosophies. But religion is very much a link to an idea of one God. Maybe there were other religions and there are still some religions that are polytheistic, that believe there are many gods. This you found more at the time when Judaism was, like, started here on the planet.
There were those polytheistic peoples, and there are a few still, but they are more worshipping gods in material form. So this is the biggest expression, maybe, of materialistic mentality and how much mankind decayed in his spirituality and started to worship images and things like golden symbols. Golden idols, they were called, right? Yeah, yeah. But
Richard: the true religions are those who
Cláudia: worship one God, spiritual God.
And we could have the Greeks, some Greeks, worshipping one god. And some of them said there was one major god and some other goddesses or gods. And this was a mixture between monotheism and polytheism. But the three important religions in the world are Judaism, Christianity, and Islamism, Islamic peoples, because they believe in the same God. And God is a being. God is not a quantic soup, as sometimes I say, of energy, beauty, truth, and goodness.
It's not something vague. It's not something that you cannot, it's intangible. No, God is a being, and God is tangible. Sometimes he manifests himself even physically, as he did with Jesus, as he does sometimes touching nature or manifesting himself through nature. And God being a being, and being a perfect being, And in an infinite being, he is intelligence. He has intelligence, the biggest intelligence, infinite intelligence.
He has feelings. He loves infinite love. He's joyful. He is happy. He has a will.
Richard: Probably has a sense of humor.
Cláudia: For sure he has a sense of humor. For sure he has.
Richard: He's very creative.
Cláudia: Extremely creative because he created everything that could be created perfectly, even though we destroyed a lot. A lot still remains perfect in his creation. And so this being made us as his children similar to him.
So if we want sometimes to understand God, we have to understand ourselves. And to understand ourselves, we must understand God. So it's a two-way thing, you understand? So sometimes people say, okay, so one thing is the love, spiritual love. You love God spiritually. And another thing is to love our fellow man. But this is another love. This is a human love, as if we could have many loves.
And not that, I understand that the amount of love or the degree of love we have, we can have, depends mostly in our inner contact with ourselves and with this inner essence. And also has a connection and a relation to the being we love. So the resonance, the vibration you have with a person that is more spiritual will be much bigger, much more satisfactory, a resonance than a physical understanding, a sexual one, which is, okay, that's a minute, seven minutes, an
hour,
Cláudia: two hours, whatever, but that's it.
But a spiritual and psychological artistic resonance between souls, this has inspired so many artists and so many religious people and theologians, Even Teresinha do Menino Jesus, which is a French saint.
Richard: French saint, yes.
Cláudia: And some many others, men and women, that had this inner intimate connection with God. So they were able to have this ecstasy, this enormous feeling of pleasure. In St.
Thomas Aquinas, he spoke about ecstasy, even in a physical sense, because we are bodies and souls. We're not divided.
Richard: There was a medieval saint, I believe, Spanish, who wrote a poem called The Dark Night of the Soul about his exploration of his love for God. It's very powerful. Lorena McKenna, a Canadian singer, wrote a song based on the poem. And it's the expression of a saint of his love for this being called God.
It's very powerful.
Cláudia: You know something, Richard? We starve from God. We need his love so much, so much. We're starving. We are like orphans, starving. Lost in the desert. Lost in the desert, needing and always having this saudade. Saudade, you don't have this word in English. It's a
Richard: pity because in Portuguese you can say, we miss, we miss.
It's a deep
Richard: longing.
Yeah, deep, deep, deep longing for this perfection, for this total happiness. Yearning. And total happiness, fulfillment and happiness, but beyond any possible imagination is in God.
Cláudia: So why not to start now, this way back to him? Why not? We are here. He's here. He's not there. Far away. He's here. So why not to start realizing who is with us?
Richard: I love this topic.
I remember when I first began this program, I was a little nervous about talking so directly about this being of God. Mostly, I come from Canada. We're like, we don't...
Cláudia: From Canada.
Richard: You can't talk about it. You talk about that, you're excluded from society. In a way. So I remember talking to Dr. Keppe about that and saying, you know, I don't know, Dr.
Keppe, I'm a little nervous about this. And he said, you know, Richard, he said, when I started in university, he said, I realized that nobody there was talking about God. So he said, so I decided I was going to. And I suddenly said, okay, if it's good enough for you, then let's start. Let's start the conversation and have a deep conversation, as deep as we can, about this thing that's most important to us.
Why not?
Cláudia: And when you start giving one step, two steps in his direction, he comes. And then the thing starts getting better and better. Every time, each day, the vibration starts to increase and to increase. And it's even more beautiful than a symphony. When you go and you listen to Beethoven or to Mozart, and then you see these accordions of the beginning.
How do you say this? These. First accordions of the music. The
Richard: first notes of the
Cláudia: music. Yeah, I think so, yeah. First movement. So, and then you
Richard: have this intuition, this presentiment that the thing
Cláudia: will grow and will grow. And beyond aesthetics, beyond music, beyond beauty of the arts, is even more it's God there waiting for us. Kierkegaard spoke about this, that spirituality was a degree even higher than arts and ethics.
Because spirituality was beyond. It's included. It includes all the wonders of the universe. Material, aesthetical, cultural, all.
Richard: The senses, everything.
Cláudia: Senses, human relations, and everything. And goes beyond, because it encompasses even all the infinite universe, material universe, and the transcendental universe, which is plenty of beings that are, well, we can't now at the moment imagine this, But if like Thomas Aquinas or St.
Augustine or some people that dedicated themselves to go further, why to stop? They were very, like, they were not modest in the sense, they wanted more, they wanted more, they wanted more. So they gave their lives in terms of finding more. And Jesus said this, he said, the luckier those who see and to perceive what is the kingdom of my father, it's like the most incredible precious stone.
So they go back and they sell everything they can to be able to buy the best. And spirituality, Richard, is the best. And we are here not speaking about institutional religion. No, thank you. We are speaking about spirituality, which is part of our essence, and it's in ourselves, inside of us, all human beings, all races, all creeds, everybody. We have the same essence, which is spiritual, mostly spiritual, and we are not taking advantage.
Yeah, and
Richard: we're missing a lot because of this. And when we touch it, we can touch it at this time of year, we can touch it in our human relationships, but you're talking about something much deeper than that. And maybe we can sometimes feel this. I know if we're listening to Beethoven or seeing great art, we touch a little deeper into this.
So it's a real shame that our art has deteriorated so much. It's taken away that aspect in our philosophy and science, too. We've lost so much of it. Can we come back in a minute, Cláudia, and talk a little bit more about this connection with the divine world? Because, you know, here we are moving into this time of the year when it should be easier to access and actually becomes more difficult because of the impediments we put in the way of accessing God.
And we've taken away even some of the traditions we used to have when I was younger that allowed us a little bit to touch it. They're gone now.
Cláudia: People are not passionate anymore. No.
Richard: People
Cláudia: don't need passions. They are cold.
Richard: We do everything on the Internet now.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco in just a moment. Don't go away.
The audience is listening to Positive World Radio, the authentic voice of planet Earth.
Richard: Welcome back. Our final, I think this will probably be our final program before the Christmas break. Maybe not. Maybe we'll do one more. Let's see. But I wanted it to be a very special program about the story, really, that we should be celebrating at this time, which is the birth of Jesus and what this means for the human being.
I think as Cláudia has been talking here today, we can maybe, if we're open, have an experience of what it means to go a little deeper into spirituality. Not just into good feelings, but into something more like ecstasy, maybe, as some of the great mystics have talked about throughout history. We don't study them anymore, you know. We've dropped the study of philosophy and theology from most university study, and so we don't have contact with this.
And we've lost a lot, I think, of what some of the great human beings for the past 2,000 years, 2,500 years, spoke about in terms of this. And so we've really lost a lot. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, your host here on the program. Hope you're enjoying. It's a great pleasure to me always to speak with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco and especially about this subject, Cláudia.
I mean, whatever we talk about here, for me, is a thrill. I was listening to one of our programs with one of my students the other day, and he was really enjoying the depth of the conversation. So this is what we wanted with our programs, to bring something that was more than just the blah, blah, blah, the happy, happy, happy, superficial treatment, but to really have a soulful discussion about things that really matter to the human being.
And we're really doing that today.
Cláudia: Yes, Richard, and I think that when we speak about the spiritual things and when we remember those heroes and saints, like the Templars, for instance, people have the tendency to analyze their deeds only under our own perspective, which is very materialistic. You're talking about the Templar knights now. The Templar knights. Imagine, Richard, 40,000 people went to this first crusade.
And, okay, I don't mean we should do wars. This is not something that I would defend. But people who would give their lives totally for something, for an ideal. So the tendency presently is to judge them under our own values, according to our own perspectives. And the perspective of our present society is totally materialistic. Money, money, money, money. So they think that those people were after money.
They went to the Middle East just for money. Searching new lands and the power. Okay, you may consider there was some of the the reason that at least some of them were searching for. But we cannot see all these people that dedicated their lives to some spiritual ideal as crazy, as lunatics, as pathological, because we have this shrinked minds today. We don't even understand.
We don't have patterns. We don't have conditions. Be like, we don't have
Richard: relation. You can
Cláudia: relate how wonderful a life of a person could be spiritually speaking, like san francis. He left everything just to live with god and nature. And And we say just because we are upside down. We don't understand that God is everything. So he left nothing, almost nothing, or the minimum in order to live the ecstasy of the maximum he could live.
So I understand that there were people who were much wiser than we are now. And that built
Richard: incredible things in the past. Yes, Dr. Kibbe said it in his book, maybe it was Universal Man, where he said that there were some people along the way who saw the great benefit of being ethical. They were lucky enough to, he said this, lucky enough to perceive the benefit of living an ethical life more linked to their essence.
They were lucky. And we, today, we despise that. We throw that away. We say that that's a, I don't want that, you know. And so we limit ourselves to this strictly material life and we're deprived totally of the magnificence we could have if we wanted to have more like these people you're talking about.
Cláudia: Even speaking in lower terms, if you have a chance to remember, because the new generations can't remember anymore and they can't resonate anymore.
And this I feel so pity. It's a pity. But maybe some of our listeners can relate to the old Christmas Eves, where the Christmas songs and carols were sang, and people went to the Mass, and they had this... Beautiful family dinner. And where people were remembering what they were talking about in Christmas time. Even the name.
Richard: Here we
Cláudia: speak Natal. Which is like birth.
Richard: Yeah. The Natal. But
Cláudia: in English it's Christmas.
Richard: Christ's Mass.
Cláudia: Yeah, Christ's mass. So why Christ's mass? Because he was born. And who is he? And who was he as a historical person? What was he doing here? So why, after 2,000 years, we still remember him?
Richard: Yeah, powerful, isn't it?
Cláudia: Powerful. It's a powerful story. So we
Richard: are wasting and losing the best of the story.
By disregarding this and how cold we've been in cutting this out of our science, Cláudia, you know, where science wants to, you know, the modern sensibility is to think only materially, only rationally, only materialistically, you know, love is just a chemical reaction in the brain. We've lost so much. Cláudia has just passed me another excerpt from this book, Glorification, to read. And the title of this chapter is, We Do Not Need to Create Faith.
We Only Need to Accept It, For It Is the Fundamental Reason for Existence. This is Keppe speaking now, this wonderful book of his. And here I'll quote from this book. When clergymen speak of the need to have faith to achieve salvation, they should more correctly speak of the need to accept what we have, including faith, in order to enjoy life, whether transitory or everlasting.
We do not have to create a belief in god because it already exists. The belief, not god. God obviously exists, but the belief already exists. We do not have to invent truth, goodness or beauty because they pre-exist. We can either accept them entirely or we can deny them entirely or distort and even omit them. But in doing the latter, we twist and reject what we ourselves are.
And this attitude is our downfall.
Cláudia: Yes. Whoa. Yes. This book, Richard, it's like the crown of Capu's work in my understanding. This is really something. Did you bring something to...
Richard: I was thinking about your psychological test that you gave us on the weekend. Cláudia does a teleclass with a number of us every Saturday morning, which I'm very grateful for, by the way.
For nine years, ten years now, I've been attending those. And she wrote a questionnaire to think about that might be interesting here towards the end of our program. What do we have? We've got four or five minutes left. She says, the psychological test is our level of connection with the divine world. This world you're talking about that the Templars had.
Cláudia: After you read, people maybe
Richard: could ask you by email or something so you could send it by email for them.
Yeah, if they wanted to answer this, this would
Cláudia: be wonderful. The
Richard: first question is, approximately how many times do you think of God each day? That could be a rather small number for many of us. Second question, how often do you remember that you receive the good things in your everyday life from God, in your everyday life from God, like food, affection, money, help, material goods, knowledge, friendship, entertainment, etc.
Three, do you make an ongoing daily examination of your conscience about the errors you make and the ill feelings you harbor against others and yourself? When you spoke about this on the weekend, you said that ethics is innate. It's in our structure. So any bad thought we have causes guilt feelings. These guilt feelings that we don't even acknowledge that we have, but they're there under the surface, right?
So this is important to examine these ill feelings, these errors we make. Fourth question. Before you begin an activity, contact a person, make a decision. Do you try to imagine how God would like you to act in this situation? Number five, in your daily life, do you think how to best prepare yourself for the final and direct contact with God? Six, how do you see this contact?
With fear or with hope? Number seven, what do you do to develop your virtues? Number eight, what do you do to diminish your worst vices? Number nine, every day, do you think of at least one practical thing you can do to help your fellow man? And the final question, do you pray and talk to God every day? Well, if we're honest, that's going to be a very searing, a very penetrating analysis, if we're honest with ourselves about this, because I don't know about people who are listening, but for most of the people I know, in my life in Canada, not here in Brazil necessarily, that's going to be relatively few times answering how they are speaking with God, having experiences.
And you
Cláudia: know, why do we do this, Richard? Because envy is the basis of our problems. This theomania, this egotism, it's all like enwrapped in the same nucleus of pathology. We envy. Envy is the uncomfortable, this comfortable feeling that we have when we see another person's qualities, beauty, the superiority of that person in relation to us. So we have the tendency to reject.
And because of this envy, we invert things, we put things upside down. The most beautiful, the best, the best people, the most beautiful ones, we tend to reject, to get apart from, to repel, because of the envy, and this is mostly unconscious. So we get apart from the best partners, the best lovers, the best friends, and the best being, god, being a being, and being the biggest and the best and the most beautiful and the most perfect and the most powerful and our owner, because He is our owner, because we did not create ourselves.
He did. So He owns our lives. We co-own our lives. We are a cooperative kind of thing. We can drive it
Richard: correctly or we can drive it into the ditch.
Cláudia: Yeah, but we can't even get rid of our lives. We can't physically get rid of it, but eternally we can't get rid of it. So this envy is mostly directed to God, to Jesus Christ.
People who deny that Jesus Christ is God, people who deny that God exists, they are denying because they are too envious of God. They are the same, they have a similar action as Lucifer had and the angels that had fallen with Lucifer that was almost the second one, it seems. But because of his envy of God, he denied everything. And that's what we do.
We deny our own essence, our resemblance with God because of this huge envy.
Richard: And we replace it with a very, very, very minuscule creation, our own creation, which doesn't even depend on us because all the talents that we use, all of the abilities we use come from him anyway. And
Cláudia: we destroy this resemblance because of the envy. We deny it every day, every day.
We destroy. And by doing so, we destroy ourselves.
Richard: So this Christmas, it would be very nice to have a little bit more contact with this being who is the source of everything.
Cláudia: And with the envy, because the envy will show up.
Richard: How we deny ourselves. So this is our program for this week before Christmas. We will try and do one more program before the Christmas period.
Let's see if we manage to do that. If we don't, Merry Christmas to you listening.
Cláudia: Merry Christmas.
Richard: Yes, and a very, very wonderful 2011, 2011. Maybe we're saying now. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, Richard Lloyd Jones with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco on the Positive World Radio Network. Merry Christmas to you, and talk to you very soon on our next program.
The audience is listening to Positive World Radio, the authentic voice of planet Earth. Hi, this is Fred Migliore. This week, some great music as the holiday season continues from Simon & Garfunkel, the Moody Blues, Dan Fogelberg, and Phoebe Snow, and the 40th anniversary of the Beatles' breakup. What? A perfect way to end the year. This week on FM Odyssey.
Richard: I'd like to say thank you on behalf of the group and ourselves.
I hope we pass the audition.
