Richard Lloyd Jones: Hello to you once again from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. I'd like to get a little bit of bookkeeping out of the way because I realize I don't do that as much as I probably should. You can find us streaming on the PWRN Network, the Positive World Radio Network on the Internet.
We also keep all of our archives on our Healing Through Consciousness site, which by the way, It's an excellent site if you're looking for more information about Norberto Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy. Lots of texts and videos and even audios there, too. Check it out. And our special email for this program, joneshealing at gmail.com. In Steven Spielberg's historical drama Amistad, Anthony Hopkins, in a typically nuanced performance as former President John Quincy Adams, argues in the Supreme Court that the captured African slaves, who are the subject of a property battle between Spain, the U.S., and the slave trading company in question, are not property at all.
Imagine that, huh? No, they are free men, he argues, as he launches into an inspiring courtroom exploration of the nature of man. Freedom, he intones, is the essence of man, proven by the lengths to which he will go to regain it once lost. It's a climactic moment in the film, very emotional, and it hits like an Ali jab, both because of Hopkins' performance and the fact that it echoes one of the foundational pillars on which the U.S.
Was formed. It's really great stuff, and all the more poignant as we consider how rare it is today to invoke the reminder of the right of all human beings to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. How accommodating we are these days to allow our rights to be stripped away because that's quote-unquote necessary to give the authorities the tools they need to fight the unseen terrorists who lurk in the shadows, waiting for the opportunity to strike the moment we drop our guard.
Well, I'm not the first, nor I'm certain will I be the last, to recoil when the reddening color on some nebulous terror alert graph is used as an excuse to implement laws that make it easier to spy on people, or when government lawyers finesse their way around the Geneva Convention by claiming that these POWs are not covered by its conventions because they don't wear uniforms of any specific and identifiable country.
That ranks right up there with, I smoked, but I didn't inhale, doesn't it? So I think it's kind of fascinating how passive we've all become in the face of more and more invasions of our privacy. Good heavens, we have sniffing dogs. I think it's incredible that we're patting down individuals at airports because we're afraid they're going to be terrorists or because they refuse to go through some new x-ray system.
Well, all these details are hard to get a bead on, but I think we can try. Let's do that right now, just for a few minutes here at the beginning of our program. Our man of the sociopathology bead up in Edmonton, Alberta, he is Will Lajeunesse. Will, what's the latest on the scanner situation in the United States airports?
Well, the latest on the airport body scanner issue is uh people are starting to be uncomfortable with these scanners.
Uh the problem is is they're they want everybody to go through the scanners. And if you don't go through the scanners then you get a full body pat down. And apparently people are reporting that it's a very hands-on pat down very thorough. And in fact I don't know anybody who wouldn't be uncomfortable having their bodies in private areas patted down. They're increasing their sales in these scanners.
Richard: I've heard some reports, Will, of these scanners are maybe not healthy, too. I can't imagine they would be healthy, but what is this? Is this some kind of radiation that's dangerous to the body?
Absolutely. There's a couple different types of these scanners, and one of them uses a radiation called the millimeter wave, And the other one, which is much more destructive, is called the backscatter scanner.
And what happens is when the radiation hits our bodies, and particularly our DNA, it tends to destroy very, very sensitive parts of the DNA. Some scientists are reporting that with the backscatter, that the DNA actually, the spiral actually relaxes and starts to come uncoiled. So we have a total destruction of the DNA in some of these machines.
Richard: And if you refuse to have this full-body scan, as you're saying, you have to submit to a full-body pap done.
Yes,
that's right, you know, the TSA. And I'm not going to comment on the professionalism of the individual doing it. They're doing their job. They do what they're told. But it's completely unacceptable in a public area, humiliating people in uncomfortable ways. I understand
Richard: there was a woman who had a mastectomy, so had an artificial breast and had to remove it. Is that what happened?
Yes, absolutely. And an older woman, and she was so shocked and taken back by it that she didn't get the name of the security officer who asked her and inspected her prosthetic. But, I mean, this is the kind of thing that is so shocking to some people that they don't know how to react, and they have a tendency to go along with it and tell, you know, hindsight, and they're like, wait a minute.
Richard: Will, when I've been following this on various blogs on the Internet, I've been noticing a lot of comments about it. People saying, well, I don't like it, but this is what we have to accept because we've got these terrorists trying to kill us. So people are accepting this, are saying, well, this is the necessary process we have to go through.
Well, I see this as people thinking and incorrectly perceiving as the problem being on the outside, A problem with terrorism, a problem with other people trying to attack them, trying to hurt America.
And this is a massive projection. And yes, there are these things in the world who want to hurt America, but the biggest threat to America right now is herself. These scanners are violating our rights. We have to give away our rights as citizens in order to have this extra, quote, security. And what we're giving up is highly, highly, highly valuable. Because of,
Richard: what do we say, Will, a fabricated sense that the danger is outside, right?
Absolutely. This is what we're doing to other people, to ourselves. It's not the other people that are doing it to us. And we don't know what the health implications are on these employees who have to run these machines. I remember I went through Las Vegas last year, and there was one security officer who worked all day around this scanner. She was touching it, walking around it.
We don't know what this is going to do. So we're trying to protect Americans, Canadians, North Americans with this technology, but in reality, we're hurting people.
Richard: Yeah. You're heading to Florida in a couple weeks. Are you going through the scanner?
No, I'm not. I'm going to
Richard: opt out. Okay. So keep me posted on the pap down.
Absolutely. I look forward to it.
Richard: Thanks, Will. You know, I think we would all do well to question whether the powerful really have our good in mind when they're implementing all this stuff. Reading Norberto Keppe's Liberation of the People, The Pathology of Power, would be very good advice for you listening.
That book really opened my eyes and explained how these crazy things continue because the powerful are actually very pathological.
Another point I want to touch on here at the beginning of our program, In the first part, I mentioned Amistad and the argument that the essence of the human being is freedom. This is actually somewhat controversial down here at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy. Not that we're saying that freedom isn't important, but is freedom the essence of the human being? One of my colleagues, Sofie Bergqvist, has done a lot of work on that.
She's a teacher down here from Sweden. And I want to bring her in now to explore this issue of freedom and find out what really is the essence of the human being. We
Sofie Bergqvist: are a little bit lost about the concept of freedom, because the democratic system is basically fundamentally based on freedom, the concept of freedom. But we are lost about what freedom really means.
And that's where I think that Capi's approach is unbelievable, unbelievable. This book that he wrote many years ago about liberation from the will and about our free will, where he explains the concept of freedom. And he explains that free is not necessarily to do everything you want like we normally think but freedom has limits to the concept of freedom. Um is something very important today in the constitution in the western world.
We say we are a free country we are so tolerant with everything but we are very lost on the interpretation of this concept what freedom really is in the research of of Dr. Keppe. He noticed that our will, the will that we have, we have a pathological will, a very strong pathological desire that we can see sometimes in our life. And we can see it, for example, just in a simple way.
If I do everything I want to do, if I really did everything I wanted to do in a day, it would be a disaster. So this This concept of everybody doing exactly what he wants to do, what is good for him, what is nice for him in the moment, it's going to be a disaster for everybody and it's not going to be a freedom for anyone.
So for example, I asked my students the other day about the concept of freedom. And normally everybody says, free is to do whatever you want, to be able to do whatever you want. And I said, but what if you want to kill your boss? You hate your boss. He's the problem of your life. I would feel so free if I killed my boss and normally the students say no of course you can't do that because here in brazil we say that our freedom finishes where the freedom of the other person begins.
So you can't limit the freedom of another person so you can't really kill someone and actually you're going to go to prison you're going to lose all your freedom. And I said but if I if I commit the perfect crime it's the perfect crime nobody knows it was me in any way people know that there is a consequence. And this is the consequence, the freedom that Kepa normally speaks about.
And it's the psychological freedom to feel free inside, to feel good with yourself, to accept who you are and to feel good with yourself. And you wouldn't do that if you're doing bad things. You're killing your boss or you're stealing money from somebody else. You start feeling bad inside. You have this heavy conscience or guilt feelings and you start limiting your natural freedom.
Keppe says like this, he has a phrase in his book also, liberation, because it's interesting the question of freedom in Keppe's work, because practically half of his books have the name liberty, liberation, Liberation of the People, liberation through knowledge, liberation from the will. And when he says liberation from the will, he's not saying that we should liberate our will. He says, actually, we should liberate ourselves from this pathological desire we have inside of doing things that actually is not going to lead me to something good.
So then we enter this question of this inverted will that we have that many times want to do something that ethically I know that I shouldn't do this. I know that I shouldn't actually do this because it's going to create problems for me. Or if I steal, or if I do something bad to somebody, I know I shouldn't do it. But I really want to now, and it seems to be something beneficial for me in the moment.
And I have this inner conflict between my desire to do it and this ethical or rational part in me which tells me not to do it. And Keppe says very clearly that as long as I use my will in accordance with reality, in accordance with what is good and what is correct, I'm free. Because my action, my good action will create a psychological freedom for me and very good consequences for me and for the others.
So within goodness, within the concept of love, as long as I'm in this concept and doing something within the goodness, I'm free. I can do whatever I want inside of this natural law of goodness. But if I step out of it and I'm irritated, I'm angry, I'm full of vengeance, I have envy of someone, I shouldn't do what I want to do. Because if I do everything I want to do in that moment, I'm surely going to create some problem for others, for myself.
I'm going to destroy my freedom and the freedom of the others.
And there's where we are lost today because we have no notion of exactly where the limits natural limits of freedom really are. Freedom is to do everything which is good truth and beautiful. This is a philosophical concept, but in his psychoanalytical experience with people, with more than 50 years of, uh, having clients, taking clients in many parts of the world, and writing books, and studying people, and the health of people, and the well-being of people, he noticed that this is true.
Because as long as people are doing what they know is good, what, when they know it's something, we know what is true deep inside. We all know what is true. We know what is good. And as long as we are doing this, we are also feeling good.
And he noticed this, that even sickness, even depression, even starting to feel bad psychologically, or creating mental problems, it's because we are not acting in accordance with this good essence that we have. We are doing something against it, and many times because we want to, we are doing our will. We are following our desire. Because I want to use drugs. Because I want to speak badly about others. Or because I want to steal a little bit of money. I want to do nothing with my life.
I just, I just want to sleep. I just want to do nothing.
And he noticed that when we are doing that we know deep inside and we are creating our own problems and we start feeling bad. So in his experimental work as a psychoanalyst, he could see very clearly, and everybody who studies psychoanalysis and integral psychoanalysis can see the same thing, that we basically, essentially, we know what is good, what is true, and what is beautiful, but we deny it all the time.
The
audience is listening to Positive World Radio the authentic voice of planet Earth. Welcome back
Richard: to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. The discussion that finished our first segment with my colleague Sofie Bergqvist was a deep one, actually, because it strikes to the essence of our understanding of what it means to be human.
If we think we're free for whatever we want, well, we can now begin to consider this more deeply. We're not free to do whatever we want. And why? Because there's a prior reality that we need to align with. There are rules for how to behave. Something Keppe says is linked to goodness, truth, and beauty. We are free within those pre-established parameters. Now, I know this makes the chaos theory believers among us crazy.
I've gotten lots of email on that subject from my Thinking with Somebody Else's Head podcast blog, and it's an important thing to clear up. In my classes, I sometimes do a very interesting comparison between Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment and Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors to show how little we North Americans understand about the essential human structure. Raja, the protagonist in Dostoevsky's wondrous novel, is racked with guilt for almost the entire long novel because he did something against his human nature.
He killed a terrible person, terrible by our social standards. Judah Rosenthal in Allen's great work is able to leave his guilt behind because he never gets caught. So how much deeper the Russian plumbed into the nature of guilt and human conduct, while the American stopped off at considering it all only in a social light, showing that we North Americans don't understand this essential point very much, because we're focused too much on freedom and not enough on goodness.
So it's my great pleasure for our fourth week in a row, this is a great honor, to have Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco with us again today from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy. She's Dr. Keppe's right-hand person and has been with him for over 30 years now as he's developed his work throughout the world. So, Cláudia, can we start with this idea that there is a reality that already exists, that we have to somehow try to conform to that?
And what you were talking about with us on the weekend, with a group of us in a teleclass, was that we're becoming very divorced, very far away from that true reality. And so we're becoming, you didn't say stupider, this is my language now, We're becoming more alienated, more and more alienated, stupider and stupider, farther and farther away. We can't think, reason as well as we should anymore.
Does that give you some place we can start with?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: What makes the universe, Richard, is pure act. Yeah. When we speak about pure act, pure vibration, we are not speaking about potency. We are not speaking about something that will become. We speak about something that is, pure act. The old Greeks, they named God as pure act. And he's like the motor, which is totally complete and pure, motor in terms of providing and emanating and giving from him everything that is exists in the universe as we the old greeks also named universals.
These are the true concepts of the universe nothing other than or nothing besides in universal can be can it can exist because god created all concepts possible so this is huge huge subject. This is a highly specialized philosophy. And in what area do we touch here? For instance, the quantum physics is somehow deceiving people when they say that no matter what you think, no matter what you wish, if you really think and if you really wish, if you program your mind in direction to that idea, to that wish, this will become truth.
Yeah,
Richard: you can create your own reality in
Cláudia: effect. That this can be materialized, this can be manifested. Material, sensorial, tangible, real terms. Now, what is really wrong in this? Nothing that isn't a truth, nothing that really exists in God's plan can become a tangible reality. A lie can never, ever become reality. A fantasy, in terms of being something that does not really exist, or something that is distorted, something that is dishonest, something that is not real, that is not good, that is not truthful, cannot exist, cannot be materialized.
And so what am I saying that only things that are inside the possible universe created by God, only those things can become, can be accomplished. That's why Jesus said, if you really, really think and if you really ask my father something like in my name, you will get this thing. So, but he was speaking about asking God things that were like in accordance to God's will.
In his name means in the name of truth, in the name of beauty, in the name of goodness. If I want to become a millionaire, I can even become a millionaire. Uh, if I think hard of becoming a millionaire, I can deal with this concept really, because money, richness, are things that are inserted in the universe that God created. But you can never, ever be happy, be healthy, be fulfilled in becoming a millionaire out of your own megalomania, your own egotism, your own narcissism.
Richard: You did a very good job of answering what I started out with, actually, Cláudia. Because now you've given me and given all of us, I think, kind of a better starting place. That we can't live really outside this force, this universe that was created, that comes from a source, that was planned, is organized. It's impossible for us to live outside that, which we're trying to do, which is making us crazy.
Cláudia: So it's impossible to say whatever you think will become, like, will materialize. It's not true. It's really a lie. And lies don't materialize. Right. If you want to deal with reality, you must deal somehow with true realities. As I said, you may temporarily be richer or make money temporarily, but you will need real things in order to get there. You will need to work.
You will need to do something in order to get there. So it's not magic. This idea of the universe being magical, in this sense of wishing and doing whatever you want, so total good and evil, anything, anything goes, this is not so. This is a big lie. If we want to be good, if we want to do something good, so really if you dedicate yourself to this, you will be able to make it.
Because everything that is, is beautiful, truthful and good by itself. And if you deal with these realistic things of the universe, and if you stick to the truth, goodness and beauty, you will make it. Yeah,
Richard: this is like important because we've created a system of thought and even a system of technology that's very, very artificial. That's very, yeah, artificial. It takes us away from contact with this deeper part.
And you were talking on the weekend about what the Internet has done for us, what this digital technology is doing. It's taking us away from contact with a deeper spiritual aspect of ourselves. I
Cláudia: can give you a very practical example.
Richard: Oh, this
Cláudia: is always great. You know Sherlock Holmes, right? Sure. So there were films, movies about Sherlock Holmes in the old fashion, with like a moral in the movie and intelligence and sensitivity and sometimes being sensible even in the movie.
So you could enter in those stories And you could even imagine yourself inside that story because there were many realistic elements, ethical, moral, social, philosophical, scientific in Sherlock Holmes. Very interesting, very interesting. But I just watched.
Richard: You saw their most recent version.
Cláudia: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So I think this is what you're speaking about. All this virtual kind of life that anything is possible between quotes.
And then what do you get from a movie like that? Just stupidity. You become tired. You don't get anywhere. You don't gain anything for you. So this is just something that makes you go further away from your inner core, your inner essence. So you end up being more alienated, more anxious, more lost.
Richard: Lost. What is happening here? What's going on? I was showing Cláudia on the weekend some students a video of a BBC series called the Transatlantic Sessions.
It's a group of American, Irish, Scottish musicians getting together and playing old songs in a collective way, using acoustic instruments and singing with a lot of respect, playing with a lot of respect for each other. And you know what this music does? It lifts your spirit so much because it's something really linked to honesty, to integrity. And, you know, the Japanese are experimenting with this.
They're playing Mozart music to ripen bananas because they're linked now even to commerce, bringing aesthetics into commerce. So in these rooms, where they used to ripen the bananas with gas, they're now ripening them playing Mozart music. And they're saying that the results are incredible, that the bananas are sweeter. It seems the bananas resonate with this energy, with this sound, and they become sweeter.
And I think there's something to this, because it's not fantasy. This is something that really is true, because aesthetics is the basis of life, too, of beauty, of everything. These beautiful sounds, these beautiful vibrations, they really affect us. They really affect the material world. They can change everything because the world is energy. So this is a resonance effect. Good energy there. There was a study done in the United States where they, I think they researched about 25,000 high school students for 10 years.
And they found that the students from all different educational and economic backgrounds, the ones who studied with high arts in the school, they were able to solve math problems better. They were more open for solutions. In every area, they had developed an incredible amount because of this exposure to the arts. This is a very well-known study, and it's fascinating to see.
Cláudia: And so you see that it's even more and more difficult today to resonate with those movies, because, for instance, speaking about the Sherlock Holmes movie, how can we resonate with any of the characters of the movie, those personages?
Yeah, the characters. The
Richard: characters.
Cláudia: So how
come, if they are totally outside reality, they are totally absurd, How can we resonate and identify with that? So if we identify with that, we are identifying with the unreal, with the impossible, with the nonsense. Because then you go back to the true world.
Cláudia: How can you add anything? How can you use your inner talents or your inner life?
How can you use this in relation to what you see in those movies? You're not going to fly. You're not going to live. And if you pay attention it's really dark. The scenery is always dark and dark and gray and dark. It is as if they are making people get used with hell. Isn't that true?
Richard: I think it's true We see this in the movie The Matrix, too, Cláudia, where the Matrix part is very, very beautiful and the real reality, Zion, below the earth.
Earth is horrible. Terrible. But we need to take a break here. I want to come back in a second because you have some quotes from Dr. Keppe's book that we should read. I think it'll be very interesting.
Back after this break. The
audience is listening to Positive World Radio, the authentic voice of planet Earth.
We
Richard: are back, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones with my special guest, Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. And just some information for you, if you're listening to the program for the first time, or even as a reminder, if you're a, what, a three, four weeks, a four-week listener now, that we have a special email that you can write to us.
And we'd love to hear from you. Any ideas you have or thoughts coming out of the programs, any topics you'd like us to consider in any more formal way, we'd be very happy to do that. Our email is joneshealing at gmail.com. Please feel free to drop us an email anytime. I check that email at least once a day, so you'll be sure I get it when you send it now.
I'll get it later on today. Okay, joneshealing at gmail.com. Our Trilogy website, where you can get lots more information about Dr. Norberto Keppe's incredible science of Analytical Trilogy is at trilogia.ws. That's T-R-I-L-O-G-I-A.W-S. And there's a lot of resources there for you to find out more about Dr. Keppe's science of Analytical Trilogy. We were talking before the break a little bit about movies.
Cláudia was talking about the new Sherlock Holmes movie. Yeah, that's an interesting one, Cláudia. But I was thinking too about the the Batman movie, this mixture of good and evil. And this is very common in movies today. The latest, I think it's the latest Batman movie, where they they have this dialectic question between Batman and the Joker, where Batman is the good guy but he's not always good.
Sometimes he's bad. And the Joker is the bad guy but he's sometimes good. And there's all this interplay between who's good, who's bad. We don't know. One guy's good one time, then he can be bad another time. So we have this mixture of good and evil. And at one point in the movie, the Joker says to Batman, you need me. Without me, you don't exist.
Without evil, we don't have good, is the point they're making. This is very confusing for human beings, isn't it?
Cláudia: Not only this, but this is very demonic. Remembering Malachi's Martin writings and the exorcisms he made. Malachi
Richard: Martin, just mention who he was. He was a Catholic, an Irish Catholic priest who spent many years at the Vatican working with a number of popes.
And he was maybe the number one exorcist there. And he wrote a number of books, including a fascinating book, which I didn't have the courage to read until I learned about Dr. Keppe's work. A book called Hostage to the Devil, where he analyzed five cases
Cláudia: of exorcism. Oh, wow. And remember one, this thing of good and evil?
Richard: Sure I do. First one, where he looked at an exorcism where the person became possessed because of this mixing of good and evil.
Cláudia: Relativity.
Richard: Total relativity. Like, who says what you should do, what you shouldn't do? Who's to tell you? These were the messages the person was getting inside from this demonic possession or these signals they were getting. But it was begun by the attraction to evil as a good thing, good as an evil thing, who knows, who cares, who is it that puts the limits on us anyway?
Cláudia: Yeah, we are born with this question. We are born with this attraction to evil, as Keppe puts it, inversion. So we are attracted to evil, but we have consciousness. We have this moral, even moral, not moral in terms of social sense, but you have this ethical being inside, this consciousness, which is the same as conscience, which knows what is good and evil.
But even though we know, even though we learn, we have this tendency and attraction because our will is already broken down. It's like a flaw in our will, our desires. We tend to go to find more pleasant evil than good. But the thing is, evil is pleasant, but the results are very unpleasant and painful. So I had a client and she's starting analysis.
I have a client, and she's starting analysis, and she's doing a comment, and she says, but why God allows so much evil going on in the world?
Richard: A common comment.
Cláudia: Common comment. Common comment. And I told her, because God is totally free, like he follows freedom. He respects your free choice, our free choice. He will never, ever invade our wishes. And pay attention, I told her, that you want evil.
You like evil, but you dislike the consequences. So if you want evil and if you choose evil, God will respect you. But you have to be responsible or like to take...
Richard: To suffer the consequences.
Cláudia: For the consequences, which are unpleasant. So, human beings want to choose evil many times, want to be bad, want the negative, but they blame God for the consequences of that choice.
Richard: Yes, exactly. You always hear this all the time. Where is, in these movies, where there's a war zone, you always say, well,
Cláudia: where is God? And if God exists, where is he today? Yeah. So people want to make war. Even citizens follow the same tendency of the powerful. They sustain the choices and this megalomania and the envy and competition between peoples and nations.
So they agree that war should exist. But when people die and people suffer and they become like mutilated and handicapped And children die out of the wrong choices of the adults, of many citizens. So, these people are to be blamed. These people are to be responsible. Yeah. To act, well, they have to respond and not God.
Richard: Dr. Keppe says in his, let's read a little bit from this great book, Cláudia.
We have a chapter from a wonderful book of Dr. Keppe's called Metaphysics 2. He has a series of books on metaphysics, and then an incredible book on the new physics, too, this four-part series, and then his great book, The Universal Man, five incredible books. Metaphysics, too, there's a chapter there we were considering on the weekend where Dr. Keppe says the human being transcends time and space when he manages to live within scalar energy.
He says, let me quote from this fabulous book, because it is essential, scalar energy is outside of time and space, which shows that the closer the human being gets to it, essential energy, the more he will see apparently strange phenomena, if we consider the norms of society today. In this respect, many intriguing facts can be clarified, such as levitation, clairvoyance, telepathy, precognition, And then he says an amazing thing.
He says, time and space came into existence after the human being decayed from act to potency.
Cláudia: Yeah, time and space
Richard: for human beings. For human beings. Which means that he has abandoned part of his essence in order to organize a new existence, as if that could be possible. Practically speaking, what man has done has been to impede the greater part of his vital functioning, resulting in these consequences, physical death, illness, difficulty in understanding, anguish, phobias.
Keppe has given us kind of a scientific view of what we've been talking about in terms of looking at movies and experiences from analysis, blaming God for things. He said, look, we've decayed, we've fallen, we've, second paragraph, we've decayed from act to potency.
Cláudia: Now, you read here, in this respect, many intriguing facts can be clarified, such as levitation, clairvoyance, telepathy, and precognition.
This is a kind of movie that attracts people a lot, right? Yeah. And they tend to see this as something outside reality, imagination, imaginary things. And when people bring this to their doctors, doctors think this is a crazy person. He's hallucinating, he's in deliriums.
Richard: Psychotic even.
Cláudia: Psychotic. And they don't understand that there is a difference between the true telepathy, the true precognition, clairvoyance and levitation, and the daydreaming of a psychotic.
Dread dreaming or dreams in the night or delirious thoughts. Many of those activities there are absolutely realistic, healthy and natural. And there are the some or the result of sick minds. And I understand that this book that Keppe wrote, Metaphysics 2, Not only this, but he wrote also Metaphysics 3, where he wrote about energetics, and also he wrote a book, The Universe of the Spirits.
Yeah so uh Jones um there are some true perceptions like the prophets, like people who have qualities of intuition. They don't deny, they don't censor them. They are more linked to God. There were saints that had visions because of this link they had with transcendence, the true, the real transcendence, which is linked to God and angels, the good angels, and this person must be an ethical person.
If this person is unethical, if he uses or tries to use the human gifts and the communication with spirits in order to take advantage, evil advantage, dishonest advantage, to deceive, to intrigue, to have control, to have power, the results will never be good. And you can never trust that these perceptions are real truth. Right. It
Richard: could be anything, right?
Cláudia: And could be also taught by those decayed spirits, the liars, the fathers of the lie.
Richard: When you talk about ethics, I want to reiterate that this is ethics that is not relative. It's not a relative state, that there is a structure to life, a structure to the way we should be, which is done, it's made, it's not in evolution, it's something complete. You know, I was listening to a very interesting radio program recently where they were talking about kids.
How come kids in families are so different? This is a phenomenon. If their genetics is so similar, if their upbringing is so similar, why are they so different? And science has no answers for that, Cláudia. It's totally materialistic. It's saying, well, because of the competition from Darwin's theory. Or it's because they see reality differently because the parents one time when the child was in the formative years, the parents were together.
But for the next child, the parents were divorced. It's always these kinds of things. And not that we are created. We have like an essence. And even though we have the same or close to the same genetics and the same upbringing, there's something else going on that we don't consider in science today. We've lost that.
Cláudia: And this is the free choice, our everyday free choice between good and evil.
So I remember one day I was talking to the president of the Italian Society of Radionics. And we were discussing like the essential energy.
Richard: What's radionics?
Cláudia: It's the study of the influence of energy in matter and in bodies. It's a study of energy affecting matter, human beings, etc.
Richard: And it's been around for a while.
Cláudia: Yeah. But she said, when I spoke about good energy and essential energy, she said, oh, stop.
But there is not such a thing as good energy or bad energy. There is just energy. In one sense, we could say that she was right in terms that the source of energy, which is God, or the original energy, is good energy. But because of the free choice and the interference of beings like human and like spirits and bodily beings, and so because of this interference energy can be distorted, can be denied, can be blocked.
And so the diseases come, yeah, problems come. If the energy would be flowing naturally as it should, then we would never have free radicals, we would never have viruses, we would never have fungus, we would never have anything. Death. Death. So stay
Richard: tuned. After this break, we'll be right back with our guest, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco.
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Richard: back Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, your host for the program. If you have got any questions or comments you want to make about our program, yeah, we'd love to hear from you. You could just drop me an email anytime, joneshealing at gmail.com, special email we have set up just for this program.
Before the break, we were into something really interesting. So now we've entered one of these fascinating conversations that we sometimes get into here that I love about doing this kind of radio, Cláudia, because, you know, I've done lots of radio in the past and we've always had conversations outside my work in Analytical Trilogy.
Cláudia: What kind of radio are you doing, Jones? This is just, what is this?
This is therapy. This is a
Richard: school. Yeah. This is information. This is science. This is philosophy. Beautiful work you're doing. It's a beautiful experience to have with you. You know, Cláudia, I was watching a documentary many years ago about a terrible situation that happened in Vietnam. It was a situation called the Mai Lai Massacre, where an American platoon inexplicably opened fire on a village of Vietnamese peasants, killing everybody in the village, or almost everybody in the village, under the idea that they were Viet Cong there.
And of course it was just children and old people and women that were killed. And I remember watching the documentary. They did some interviews with some of the people who had been involved in this terrible thing, and there was one man who had participated, who had gotten caught up in the craziness of the situation and had opened fire and obviously killed some people.
His life had been just a disaster. He was depressed, suicidal, he was on all kinds of medication, he was an alcoholic. He had seen his young son killed in front of him in a drive-by shooting. It was a
Cláudia: horrible situation. And, you know, I don't tell this... But he saw this, really,
Richard: or what he imagined? No, he saw this, really.
Cláudia: His son?
Yes,
Richard: his son. And he had participated in this, and he was a tortured soul, you could see this, And with nobody to help him, if he had had some of your work, Dr. Keppe's work, he might well have been able to try to deal with this in some way. But what I wanted to say was there were two people in this platoon who did not participate, who tried to stop the soldiers from doing this.
They tried to maintain reason. And one of them was a very humble black man who was, I think, a janitor, some kind of job. And he was calm. He was content. He was at peace with himself and even happy having witnessed terrible things because somehow he had remained true to something innerly correct in himself. There was also a helicopter pilot who had also participated and tried to help.
And these two people, they did interviews with them, and they somehow were more balanced, had more balance in their lives. It shows us that when we go against this essential energy, this world of God, we are in big trouble when we do this, aren't we?
Cláudia: So now we enter even in this universe of spirits business, Jones, because human beings can perform horrible acts that under normal, wise, or sensible circumstances they would not perform.
I mean that if people are emotional in terms of hatred, in terms of envy, in terms of paranoia, they enter in tune, they get in tune with similar beings. It's like tuning a radio to the darker and sometimes darkest dimensions of the spiritual world. And we get then many... Inspiration. Many ideas. Sometimes we think they are coming from our own thoughts and our own decisions, but they are very much imposed, very much inserted in our minds by those beings, those evil beings that use us as channels to manifest their envy and their hatred.
I'm not saying that we are victims of those spirits. We are not like involuntarily possessed, but we can be friends with, be intimate, allow them to come in our inner lives in moments where we are tempted and we accept the temptation and temptations, thoughts that are negative against our fellow man. And so when we do this, we invite them to enter our lives.
And they do not act as good angels and as God that respect the freedom. They never invade our lives. They ask. Sometimes we have to ask them to help us. But those evil beings, they do never wait for invitation. They just come. So, this soldier must have had this kind of phenomena. He must have had some evil choices, not necessarily that evil before, but in tune with evil spirits, they took advantage from him to perform this disaster, this massacre.
And they take so much pleasure. They take so much pleasure. When they do this, because they release, they manifest, they feed the envy they have. So envy is fed by this kind of attitudes, sacrifices. When we hear about spiritual or evil spiritual religious sacrifices, where they kill people, innocent people, they kill virgins, they kill beautiful children, beautiful women, because those spirits, the evil spirits, they are thirsty to have their envy manifested and accomplished, to destroy the beauty, the envy, there are so much envies of.
This innocence, this breath of God, this manifestation of God that they see in some beings and they hate that. Because when they look at that, they see what they lost, what they were, what they could be, and they are not anymore, and they will never be anymore. So they are so horrified in some way to have to admit that their choices, and when they see people that are more beautiful, more truthful, more linked to God, so they compare with themselves that they can't stand.
So they
Richard: kill this consciousness. Yeah, interesting. Like we bomb other countries because we can't stand the consciousness they bring. You're giving us a totally different explanation, Cláudia, from this idea that we come from the jungle and that we're animals in nature. You're giving a totally beautiful... You
Cláudia: know, Keppe says, we don't come from monkeys. Right. We are becoming monkeys.
Richard: Yeah.
Cláudia: We do not come from animals.
We are becoming animals. We were like angels.
Richard: Worse than animals in some cases. We are? Yeah, we're becoming worse than
Cláudia: animals. Yeah, worse than animals. Evil.
Richard: But we come from, yeah, I remember this in a television program, I think, where you had a graphic of Dr. Keppe's, maybe a radio program we did, I don't remember now, but you talked about why do we always compare ourselves to animals, to lower beings, and never compare ourselves to the higher, you know, to saints and angels and these things.
We compare ourselves to the lower. You
Cláudia: see why, Jones? Because if you admit that there is good and evil, if you admit that this affects matter and the material realm, you will have to start examining your inner life and your choices. So you will not be free anymore to choose whatever you want to choose. You will have to follow more your conscience than you would like to.
You have to be better to people and to be more responsible and to take care of the world and of your fellow man. You
Richard: know just to come to the end of this section this is very clear because all the people who are coming back from war situations. Now, they're coming back very disturbed because in some way, not some way, in an obvious way, they're acting against this deeper, truthful part of themselves.
Cláudia: Nobody likes to kill other people.
Richard: It's not natural. No. Thanks a lot, Cláudia. Cláudia is back on our program again next week. I'm hoping, but you never know because she's a busy woman, but I'll try and get her back next week. Here at the end of our program, we're going to discuss this in more detail on an upcoming program of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
But I wanted to dig a little bit into this whole thing with WikiLeaks that's been going on. I was doing a little research on the weekend about this, reading an article from a blog, I guess, one of the journalists from The Guardian, Theo Braynen, who was making the comment that WikiLeaks is no different from the secretive power structures it is seeking to undermine because WikiLeaks is also secretive.
Well, good heavens. What kind of thinking is that? WikiLeaks has to be somewhat secretive since it could be shut down by the organizations he's trying to expose. Not just that, but his life could be in danger from those power structures. WikiLeaks, on the other hand, has no power to shut down those organizations. So how can it possibly be considered equal? I'm finding the whole rhetoric of reaction against this thing quite fascinating to watch psychologically.
The Guardian goes on to say that our man in WikiLeaks is not credible because he's not a neutral truth bearer. Oh, like the U.S. And United Kingdom governments are, right? This is typically sold out to the man thinking, right? The government can do what it likes because it's got our good intentions at heart, while the solo worker trying to expose its corruption is harboring a grudge and is a self-serving anarchist.
You know, holding the whistleblower up to the same standards of perceived objectivity as the institution he's blowing the whistle on. Well, you know, the system is so clearly stacked in favor of the big boys that this is hardly a fair comparison. So, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on here. I noticed on the weekend, too, that PayPal has cut WikiLeaks' online donation account, saying that they're engaging in illegal activity.
They've been banned from Amazon servers. And Hillary Clinton is screaming against them, saying that the release is an attack on American foreign policy interests and the international community. But, you know, there's something more going on here. Whether you agree or disagree with WikiLeaks and how he revealed the information, the information is very important. For we human beings to understand in our society.
Ron Paul, the Republican congressman from Texas, who has the most conservative voting record of any American congressman since 1937, puts on his Twitter post this, quote, in a free society, we're supposed to know the truth. In a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble, end of quote. And he's vilified generally across the media for this, but he's speaking the truth, isn't he?
So there's something to understand here about the psychopathology of power, and I'll be getting into this a little bit more in our next program with Gilbert Gambucci, but let me just give you a couple of ideas from Dr. Keppe here at the end of our program. Keppe says in his book, Liberation of the People, available on our website at HealingThroughConsciousness.com, he says that, So Keppe is really focusing something here about the pathology of power that we don't understand very well.
I read in the Toronto Star, one of the reporter's blogs, that he was saying in there that he doesn't like Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks guy. He doesn't trust his motives, and he says, he personally gives me the creeps, end of quote. Then he goes on to say, it's just a gut reaction, no proof of anything, but it's a very strong aversion. But you know, very strong aversion.
But you know, he would never say that about the lies that Bush told to get us into the second Gulf War. He would never say that about an elected politician, but he's free to say his personal opinion as a journalist about some other guy. You know, there's something very strange going on there. So I want to explore that in upcoming episodes of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, particularly the pathology of power, okay?
So do join us again for that. You'll find it a fascinating discussion. Right, well, that's the end of our fourth program. Great to have you along as always. Once again, our email, if you're interested in commenting or having us... Explore any other issues you think are pertinent or relevant for us. It's joneshealing at gmail.com. Talk to you next time on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Talk to you next time. Bye-bye.
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