Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and welcome to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I wonder sometimes if young people today admit to naivety. It seems very uncool to be innocent these days. Kurt Cobain maybe summed it up best when he said "he was always busy acting like he wasn't naive, like he'd seen it all, like he was there first." I think that speaks for a generation.
You can't be gullible anymore, God forbid. You have to know what's cool and what's not, and prove that in what you wear and drive and love. Of course, there's the really complicated aspects to consider, like your best friend who keeps walking blindly into disastrous relationships with men who throw down her heart and stomp that sucker flat. This is pretty pathological, actually, and I think speaks of a deep, self-destructive alienation, not guilelessness at all.
We are all of us vulnerable to this kind of personal heave-ho based on the level of denial we're in about reality. Reality in this sense meaning how we really are behind our masks and how we really see the true state of our upside-down society. Which we will never see unless we undertake some profound self-analysis. Removing the rose-colored glasses, the dangers of social alienation, today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Well, I want to get right into our program today, so just a couple of quick reminders. Everything we consider in our program today is explored in beautiful and incisive detail in the masterworks of Brazilian psychoanalyst and social scientist, Norberto Keppe.
Check that out and start a dialogue with me about that.
Write me about how it all strikes you or pass on anything interesting through your social networks. My email is joneshealing at gmail.com. You know, my wife Monica and I were talking to one of the leaders in a Trans-Pacific Partnership in Nigeria the other day about how the business, economic, and social proposals in Keppe's Liberation of the People could really change the world if adopted.
And I'm not being flip about that. We have a lot of experience with these principles in action in many countries now and would love to pass on what we know to you.
Highly recommended. It. The science of psychosociopathology is what we bring to the table, and it's been what's missing in all the revolutionary movements throughout history that are necessary if we want to make revolution stick.
The pathway to a true, just, and spiritual society is in that book. Well, let's get to our program today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, an urgent one and an important one. If we want to have a different and new society, if we want to rewrite the laws and the political structures of our world, this program is essential for your listening today.
The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco joining us and our dear friend Susan Berkley from New York. Our first program of 2012, Cláudia. End of the
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: world? The year. We can say this is not the year, but it's when everybody is openly seeing that we are already in an ongoing severe crisis and we cannot hide it anymore.
Richard: And our crisis is twofold, as we were talking about just before our program. We have this horrible problem of the pathology of power, which is serious.
And now we see all the Republican candidates for the election talking about war with Iran and this kind of crazy jingoism that disturbs the situation. We also have this situation where the people have tended to idealize the powerful and think that solutions are going to come from the political or even economic front. And this is obvious this is not going to happen.
So we want to talk about these two aspects of the situation. And here, just after the signing of the NDAA in the United States, the National Defense Authorization Act, which is a very scary piece of legislation, we have a lot of serious problems to deal with. Yeah. And you've passed through all this. You've been through all this, so you can bring a lot of wisdom to the discussion here.
What's missing in our discussion? What are we not considering as we talk about this in
Cláudia: the world today?
Richard, now we are confronting maybe the biggest crisis ever in the world. And I say this not because of pathology being worse than before, but because civilization reached a point, an inverted point, where the technology is so evil and so dangerous that, as Einstein said, "if we have another third world war, we will not have anything else after that. The
Richard: next one will be fought with sticks and stones.
Cláudia: If there is any living creature in the planet." So we are like in a dead end. Civilization is so upside down, values are so upside down, that either we become conscious of the psychosocial pathology, which is absolutely loose. It's nobody knows about that. They are starting to wake up now about the pathology of power.
Richard: Yes, finally,
Cláudia: finally. And we were called many times trailblazers, Dr.
Keppe and myself, because we are in like ahead and opening a way for people to become conscious of things that they are not conscious of and trying to find solutions how to cope with these problems.
And so I see being repeated like a movie, like a movie, what we went through in the United States in New York City in 1988, starting in 1985, 1986, seven and eight mostly, and what happened to us that uh we idealized American government. You personally, you and Dr. Keppe,
Richard: and we idealized Dr. Keppe and
Cláudia: myself. We, of course, were invited by scientists to go there.
We had hundreds of people following our work when we were there. So we were like misled to think that America as a nation or even the American government and institutions would be as opened as those American people were about us. So we thought, well, okay, so we go there because it seems that in United States, we will have the chance to be, to have a real democratic government, a real open, developed country where we can say, speak right and do good things without any problem of detectorships or anything as we had in Brazil at that time, by the way, posted here by CIA.
But we had the illusion that military in Brazil were worse than American government. So, and this was an idealization we did. Projective idealization. All our good ideals, highest ideals we projected onto American structure, institutions, and
Richard: government. Well, you were looking at the Constitution and the
Cláudia: development of the country. Yes. You could be excused for believing this. Yes. We thought the American Constitution done by the founding fathers, that was the peak
Richard: of
Cláudia: all constitutions all over the world, so that this was real and it was working.
It was running okay, but we didn't know about all those amendments done after that and all those changings, all those, as Obama said, "all those holes that American Constitution was not perfect and that it had many mistakes and holes that he had to fill up with amendments."
And this is what he said after he was elected. Because when he was elected, he used this spirit and he used the names of the founding fathers and he used the spirit of the Liberation of the People book, which was even given to him, handled to him when he was living in New York City, two blocks from our clinic. And he had a community work, communitarian work, and he was contacted by our groups.
And we are absolutely sure that Obama read the book and he got a lot from the spirit of the book. And he used this in his campaign. And that's how he was elected. So he misled, misused our Dr. Keppe's work to deceive people.
Richard: Now, you call yourself trailblazers. Yes. So
Cláudia: we went there and we were like idealists. But as soon as we started to try to protect American people from the mistakes the government was performing, and especially the financially powerful and economically powerful, we started to warn them, "be careful, you're taking the wrong path," as if American politicians were mistaken, were misled by the financially and economically powerful.
So I see today, it could be that some of them were misled, yes, but many of them thought that they should stick to these financially powerful, like Reagan, Ronald Reagan did, making a pact with the bankers and speculation and Wall Street market, bringing the solution for all problems in America and all over the world. Neoliberalism was the solution for everybody and many people got rich overnight.
So it was the biggest deception ever. And so at that time capi started to warn everybody, oh please wake up, wake up, otherwise if you continue in this path you are going to enter in the hole that you're not never, ever being able to go out of that. So we were like naive because we thought there were real conscious and idealistic politicians that would understand our warning and would change their mentality, but this didn't happen.
And American people was at the side of these politicians and at the side of this neoliberalistic idea and philosophy. And they, too, they got like, oh, but this is not true. We are better than ever. So Dr. Keppe is like a gloomy kind of
Susan Berkley: scientist. He brings
Cláudia: bad news. He's an unwelcome prophet, as they say. So, one thing that Dr. Keppe is speaking and writing about now is the problem of arrogance, which he sees as our primary fundamental...
But I would like to go back to what happened to us as these trailblazers. We got such a heavy attack from this hidden government. We were sued, we
Richard: were arrested. What it means to be a trailblazer, first, Cláudia? Yeah, trailblazer because
Cláudia: we were there, we were idealizing everything, and then we realized, my
Richard: God,
Cláudia: this is nothing what we thought, and we discovered it first.
So trailblazers, meaning that Dr.
Keppe did this study, this scientific study about the pathology of power all alone with myself and helping him and a group of scientists helping him and researchers. And we did a campaign, a national campaign, to make everybody aware of the dangers of these policies and we got no response. So this was something that we did alone, totally alone. And when we were attacked and put in MCC, as all the Americans that are in Liberty Square today, they are being put in MCC.
Susan: Manhattan Correctional Center. Yes. Which is also called the
Cláudia: Tombs in New York City, right? It's a high security prison in New York City. Yes. So these political prisoners are now being arrested and put... Political prisoners. This is hysterical,
Richard: isn't it?
Cláudia: But isn't this true? I know,
Richard: isn't it crazy? But Cláudia, I think what's important about what you're saying is that because of Dr.
Keppe's understanding of psychopathology, he could really see
Cláudia: the pathological problem that is at the root of this, not only from the pathology of power, which you're talking about, but the pathology of the people, too. No, but I'm getting there. Okay. I'm getting there. So what happened to us, socially speaking, is happening to them now, to American people, and it will happen to everybody on the planet.
This is a global revolution. This is a global dictatorship. This is not something happening in New York City, Liberty Square. This is something global. And I want to tell you, we went through this fight, an enormous battle against the powerful, and we got the response of them. It was heavy response. So Obama is warning, I'm going to give you a very heavy response.
With this National Defense Authorization
Susan: Act, which is effectively martial law.
Cláudia: Martial law. They're planning everything to enslave even more the people. So I want everybody to be, to open the eyes. This is not, this is not funny. This is not something light. This is dangerous. And we have been warning many things since then and nobody heard us. So the crisis, which is enormous now, was totally, like it was possible to deal with that.
Avoidable. 20 years ago, it was not necessarily, it's not a fate. Changing society is possible. Living in a better world is possible, but just if and only if we give up our alienation and we start taking seriously the consciousness of what Keppe calls the psychosociopathology. And we can go back to this in a minute, right?
Richard: Yeah, exactly. And this is the work that you guys have been doing for your lives.
Your lives have been dedicated to this. And so we want to say, I think, to the people who are listening and the people who are part of this Occupy movement that there is a science here that really provides a baseline understanding that's absolutely essential.
I don't see anybody talking about this like you and Dr. Keppe, Cláudia. So it's a very, very important work that you're doing. Yeah, we can take a break here. We've got a lot more to say, but let's do that little break here. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, our first program of 2012, and very nice to have Cláudia Pacheco and Susan Berkley with us.
We're back in just a moment on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head to consider more about the pathology of power, the pathology of the human being, and how in the world are we going to resolve this situation here on earth today. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're back. Our website at heating through consciousness.com has all the past programs and lots of information about Dr.
Keppe's extraordinary work in liberation to people. I was thinking here, you are a couple of brazilians invited
Susan: by
Richard: americans to go there,
so you're in the middle of this thinking one thing, thinking wow, we're in the most advanced country in the world, we are going to have a incredible opportunity with our science, they're going to take our science and take it out to the world, and then suddenly very quickly you start
Cláudia: seeing exactly the opposite is going to happen because things changed severely, and now
Richard: you're in the middle of this.
What do you do? How do you
Cláudia: handle this? Yeah, we were with a group of students and trainees coming from other countries and not even being American citizens in there. And we were giving lectures and workshops in the universities. And then, in a sudden, everything was cut off from us. And it's like pulling the rug from below our
Susan: feet. And I just want to say, I mean, you say we were giving lectures.
I mean, this was a movement that was hot that you guys were leading then. I
Cláudia: was there. So, So Dr. Cappi and you, Dr. Cláudia, were speaking at 800,000 people, loving everything that you were doing. Yes, they loved. That was the problem, by
Susan: the way. They loved it. This was not some little group. I mean, you were accepted by the American people with passion, with support.
When Dr. Cappi released Glorification, wrote
Cláudia: that, and went to release that book, the publishing house said, "we're going to print millions of copies of this book."
Yes. And all of a sudden, the door slammed shut. Yes, that's right. And then we got caught, as if we were those two kids that entered a cave and discovered a monster inside of it that was not supposed to be discovered. Right, not supposed to be there. And
Richard: then we were like, uh-oh. Now what do we do?
What are we going to do now?
Because now we have properties here. We have a clinic. We have clients. We have students. We have a life here. We invested life, money, work, blood, everything.
Susan: So let's see what are we going to do. Your phones are being tapped. You are being followed. You're suddenly invited to Congress and suddenly those invitations are withdrawn with no explanation. Yeah.
Cláudia: So we were in a situation that we thought, are we going to close down everything and go back?
Are we going to confront the situation and see what comes out from this?
So Dr. Keppe decided, "I stay until I can really feel that the battle is impossible." But he always had this hope that someday or at some point American people would wake up. And he used to say, "if Americans don't do this revolution of consciousness, of freedom, no other people will do it in the planet." This was his idea. So he said, "it's worthy to stay and to try more." So that's what we did.
And what did he do to confront the pressure? All those students and trainees that were there, more than 100, Dr. Keppe helped them to form their own work, their own enterprises, in order to have a good economic basis so we could be there economically protected. And he founded the Trilogical Enterprises where workers were owners and this was the first model of enterprise where all workers were owners and these enterprises in a year or two they grew how much percent?
A lot, a lot, a hundred. 200, 400 percent. So it was such a huge and fast growing because everybody wanted to hire their services. They were honest people. They were the owners. So they did a very good job. Cheaper
Susan: price. So they could have cheaper price. And well-educated, actually, doing service work.
Cláudia: So just if I could quickly add, things like trucking company, basic services, house cleaning, carpentry.
Babysitting, hairdressing, graphics, travel agency. We
Susan: had 17 enterprises. And people who never worked in that area, they learned how to work. They learned how to do things. They opened up companies. So they were all legal. It was paying taxes. I've been interviewing some of these people, and I didn't realize, because now they're very successful. For 25 years now, they've had
Richard: their
Susan: own Trilogical Enterprise.
But when they started, when they were in Brazil, they were, for example, a banker, a bank manager who came to the United States and picked up a hammer. And this Roberto was telling me that he built his first cabinet. A friend gave him instructions over the telephone how to do it. And they managed. They managed.
Cláudia: And not only that, but American clientele, they were so receptive.
Receptive, so receptive when they understood what they were doing, that they were experimental units, psychosocial experimental undertakings, just like
Richard: a project,
Cláudia: yeah, and so they contributed and they enjoyed and they liked because they could open like their homes, they could leave their homes to them and no worry of being stolen or being attacked because they were very honest people and they are.
So we had a very big success. We very soon we were in broadway, in a corner broadway with 110, and we
Richard: had a whole floor,
Cláudia: large space for the companies.
Well so um american powerful started to get more and more worried because we continued our campaigns and this group of 17 companies, they got together and they had a fund to fund the promotion, the printing of the books. We printed books. We printed
Richard: posters to help American people. We were there to help American people. You're there. You're in the middle of the situation.
So you think, well, let's try to do
Cláudia: something. We had to try to finish our job there. And living organization was provided, too, because then we started this economic, rational, no trilogical living residences like the residences. They were not really communities in the sense of as the communities showed up in the 60s. They were more to provide means, rational means.
Susan: They weren't communes in
Cláudia: the 60s.
Susan: They were
Cláudia: shared living, co-housing, I think we call it.
You mean nowadays? Yeah. Yeah. So co-housing with, so people can share jobs and tasks and taking care of children and everything.
Richard: So it was very rational and productive. I want to try and bring this into our current time because really I think these businesses, these residences are a solution for today. I mean, this
Cláudia: isn't just something that happened in the 80s. So they worked.
So they worked so well that people that lived in them, they didn't want to change the way of living when they came back to Brazil. So they are here, they have similar, but much better, I mean, much better organized, better conditions and richer. So they are very satisfied with this kind of thing in here,
Richard: too. And now we have some trilogical businesses beginning again in New York.
I mean, we
Cláudia: have them here in Brazil. When you guys went to Paris and Lisbon and all these places, you continued those businesses.
And an American citizen who worked in these trilogical businesses and residences, he's starting there.
Richard: Yeah. And what's the answer, Cláudia? How do these forms of business, these forms of living arrangements, how do they work?
Cláudia: So they are
Richard: a kind
Cláudia: of co-ops, a kind of.
They have this basic understanding that work is the most important value and not capital invested. There was the need of capital investment, but not in a sense that people who invested money would have payback from the capital invested.
So where people would cooperate in all means.
Cláudia: And so there are some arrangements in this cooperative and some improvements in the cooperative model from the beginning of cooperatives. But what I think was the biggest change was the philosophy of life of those enterprises and the scientific background of these enterprises.
So the philosophy of those enterprises and the psychological and social approach of them are like disinverted. We dealt and we deal with disinverted values. Instead of competition, we use cooperation. Instead of exploitation, we understand that
Richard: that
Cláudia: person who is more productive is really the one who should have more benefits. Or even more than that, everybody works for everybody, one for all and all for one.
And this is something that is present in our philosophy. And what is absolutely essential in those enterprises and residences is that they study and they understand and they put in practice these psychosocial pathological discoveries. Because you know something, Richard, we can fight the powerful. We can even cut the head off of all of them.
Richard: They did that in France in
Cláudia: the 1700s.
But this doesn't work if it's not understood, because we, the people, we, each one of us, have enormous amount of pathology, which is unknown, which is also loose.
So in order to have this inner strength to confront the powerful, we need to have this inner center. This inner center this inner balance can only be achieved if I deeply know myself in my pathology and
Richard: this means to understand ourselves at a deeper level because what Dr. Keppe has discovered all the great psychotherapists have discovered in history is that we have a hidden side, a side that we don't see very well, and we see this manifested very well in the pathology of power, these really bad intentions that we can see as bad intentions and they think are good intentions because they're totally loopy, totally crazy.
Well, we have the same problem inside us that we don't understand
Cláudia: very well. The powerful, they even think, okay, that's life. I have bad intentions, but everybody has, so that's it, and life is this.
Richard: If I want to get ahead, I have to be like this.
Cláudia: So you will find many people amongst the 99% thinking the same way. And you will find many people amongst the 99% projective and blaming everybody for his own problems. And they will stop blaming the powerful and will start blaming each other. And this is something that we went through in the beginning.
Richard: Because you're starting a new, an alternative business and you're thinking, "well, everything's going to be perfect here, but it's not
Cláudia: perfect. No angels, no saints." So when we started this enterprise, sometimes I thought, "my God, what is worse? The powerful pressure or the pressure of this 99% people that were, as Susan said, people with a good level of education and even doing analysis." So the problems that we have to confront in living together and because then everybody thinks, "oh, I'm the owner, so I'll give the rules."
And now here comes the arrogance, Susan. Each one is like a god, a small god. Each one is like, I'm the best. I have the best idea. The truth is with me. The owner of the truth. I'm the owner of the truth. And this is like creating so many fighting and troubles and confusion that almost, I almost gave up this attempt to liberate people from the slavery of the powerful.
It seems that people are used to have a kind of boss on the top of them, giving the rules and the orders, so they don't take any responsibility. They don't have to handle with their emotions. They just blame the boss, but they have their salary in the end of the month. They had. Now they have no longer.
Richard: Or they take control. They try to take control and do the same thing that the powerful are doing to us today.
Cláudia: And this is a problem because in this 99%, there will show up many people who will want to become a new boss, a new power.
In the group. Can
Richard: you stay a little bit longer? Have you got a little bit more time? Yes, I have. If we do, okay, great. We're back in just a moment. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Returning to consider the problems that we're all going to face as
Cláudia: we start to identify the powerful. And
Richard: be sure. And be sure you'll have. They will come up.
We're back in just a moment. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco and Susan Berkley. And Cláudia, let's come back then to
Cláudia: this fascinating discussion. So what happens if a father A husband, a head of a family, and he is fired. And then he stays home with his family, his wife and children. What happens generally?
Richard: The family starts fighting.
Yes. This
Cláudia: is absolutely, absolutely a rule. The guy gets depressed and nervous.
And the wife gets disturbed because she used to be the owner of the place and the only ruler of the place. She gave the rules. When she doesn't work, it's even worse. If both of them work, and if one of them starts being without a job, the other one will tend to accuse the other one. So accusation starts.
Richard: I'm doing all the work around here.
You're not pulling your weight.
Cláudia: So the fighting and confusion start. It's like a hell. Because projection is a thing that nobody has control and nobody knows how to deal with this. And capi science, capi science that created the process of interiorization, which is a technique, a dialectic technique to understand, to know myself through the others and know how to deal with conflicts, relationships in family, in working places, among people, among groups, institutions and nations.
If we are not aware of this inversion and projection we will have hell perpetuated, perpetual hell, because fighting starts. So when people get together to start a business, my god, and when money enters in the scene even worse. So I'm not saying you should stick being slaves or depending on the state because this is over, this is over. You need to understand this is over.
Nobody in the power place, powerful, will never ever give you what you need and what you want for you and for your family. We must become conscious and responsible for our future and the future of our kids. And now we need to stop alienated and enjoying alienation and go back to responsibility and to work and to see oneself deeper and knowing oneself and seeing what is wrong with us, not only with other people.
And Keppe created a method, which is the psychosocial therapy.
So we will need to teach a lot of psychotherapists in the world and each company must have at least one good person trained in this so he can handle the situation.
Richard: To deal with these inevitable conflicts. Inevitable, inevitable. Because of the situation that we're in, our psychological situation.
Cláudia: And I can tell you, we went through this and it works. It compensates. It really compensates Because some of those who are not really balanced enough, psychologically balanced enough, they will be handled properly by those who are more balanced.
There is a group of people in society which has more balance. And some of those who don't have as much balance, which is the minority, by the way. It is the minority. At least, well, I don't know how it is in America nowadays with so much drugs and alcohol.
Richard: But there is hope, yes, and it's worthwhile.
And we sometimes need to take care of sick people, too. But it's not going to come from reordering the structure that
Cláudia: we have today. This is the thing that we really need to say. This must come from the people. And even changing the laws. We must change the laws. We must change education. We must change philosophy. And Keppe even wrote a book, The Decay of the American People in the United States, which is applicable to all the countries, not only America.
And there he studied what was wrong in agriculture, in finances, economy, education, philosophy, religion, psychology,
Richard: culture, arts,
Cláudia: everything.
So it's like a manual for any country and any people to reform, to restructure their countries. But this now will have to come from the people and from good leaders that will be born. And those leaders must be those who serve the most.
Cláudia: And here comes theology as the basis. And the Judeo-Christian teachings where there must be ethics, there must be virtues, there must be love in action, doing good for the fellow man and having good to ourselves as a result. And even we have the chance to use a very beautiful technology that Keppe developed, the new physics. We have the means now to have our own almost free energy in the planet.
So these are good, good news. You're going to be your own entrepreneur of your own enterprises. You're going to be friend of your fellow man. You're going to have a more balanced family. You're going to have economic and social stability, security. You're going to have friends at your side when you need them, when you're sick, when you are going through a problem.
This is the reality of our trilogical residences and trilogical enterprises.
A trilogical society. It's a trilogical society, which Keppe would name like the true society or the divine society that should have been here since the beginning.
Richard: Yeah, so please just reiterate that, Cláudia, the necessity for us to understand that this is a complete change. It's not just moving a few deck chairs around as the Titanic is sinking. It's a matter of really addressing
Cláudia: at a fundamental level a fundamental change.
Everything is upside down. Everything is upside down. But we can do it. We have been doing this. Estrello Blazers. We have been doing this. We have been proving for 20 years. 20? How many? At least
Susan: 20, 25 years almost. Since 1982, 84. 83.
Richard: 1983, we started with those residences and things. So
Cláudia: that's 29 years. Next year? 30 years. 30 already? Yeah.
Richard: So we have this experimento for 30 years, and we can say it's worthwhile, and it will be such a change in the planet.
So for people to get started, Cláudia, what should they do? We have lots of information on our site. We
Cláudia: have books. We have to start the book, reading the books. Those who are interested in knowing more and going deeper in psychosocial therapy, they should call. They should start analysis by phone, by Skype sessions, to speak about their problems and see how they can handle, and we teach them how to cope with the situation.
It's not a miracle. It's not seven or ten steps, programs. No, this is true, real, human, and social, millenary problems, but we have means to handle this. We found a way to diminish tremendously, tremendously diminish the consequences of this wrong medicine, the wrong philosophy, the wrong psychology, the wrong education. The wrong
Richard: child rearing, the wrong child rearing, all of that. The wrong way we treat the environment, all of these
Cláudia: things.
Everything upside down. Our websites
Richard: have lots of information about that, and we can
Cláudia: even give some courses. I was
Richard: just thinking courses we can teach them long distance, or or they can uh we
we have by the way organized a course that people do by internet, and then they have a chance to spend one or two weeks in Brazil in our training place.
It's a small beautiful city inside like in the mountain. A countryside, yeah. A countryside with good waters. And so we have training programs here also. But they can start reading the books and calling for consultation by Skype, by phone, very reasonable, economically speaking, fees. So nobody can say that they
Cláudia: cannot do that. You just have to raise your hand and contact Rich, send an email.
I'm sure this will happen eventually, or even sooner or later this will happen, and I hope this as soon as this start happening the sooner the better, because then you will have chances to confront Heavy stuff that is coming.
Believe me, heavy stuff is coming. And we will have to confront. No way out. No escape. We need the stability to
Richard: handle that. And this comes
Cláudia: through Dr. Keppe's science. So we will have groups to help
Richard: us. You will have groups to help you. You will have economic help too. Because these groups work. Everybody for one and one for all. Look, and we have a lot of experience.
Even me, I've been here only 10 years, but I have a lot of experience now. And Susan has a lot of experience. Cláudia.
Cláudia: Swedes,
Richard: Finnish,
Cláudia: Italians, Portuguese,
Richard: Danish even came here. Germans. Americans, German. Russians. Canadians. Yeah. So we have... Ah, Latin American. Yeah, so lots
Cláudia: of Latin Americans. So we have the
Richard: facility to help people in this very new, not new. Now it's over 30 years, but
Cláudia: maybe
Susan: it's being reintroduced.
So you can't say, this works.
It's like a utopian community where you solve the problems that stopped the idealistic utopian communities in the past.
Cláudia: Yes. And even CIA sent more
Susan: than one person to investigate what was different in our organization. How did you do it? They could borrow the ideas.
Cláudia: How come they don't split? How come they don't dissolve? All the communities were dissolved.
Richard: They don't kill each other by...
How
Cláudia: come? What is
Richard: underneath?
Cláudia: Is this a sect? Are they just following to... It's a personality cult to Dr. Kemp and Dr. Pacheco. What is this? So we can say that this is a science, a strong and new science. New, we can say, because it's 40 years old, and it has been hidden by the powerful since the beginning. But this is a science, and it's a solid science, based on solid information, philosophical, theological, and scientific information.
Keppe always based his work in solid thinkers, scientists, theologians, and practice, experience. So it's a science that was discovered, developed for humanity, just to take it and use it, not to end the planet. That's why we have this organization, STOP the Destruction of the World, through
Richard: conscientization of psychosociopathology. It's a leading perspective in the world today. And we receive emails from concerned listeners around the world who really want to know what to do to bring about a better society while avoiding the massive pitfalls that tripped us up in the past.
This is what Keppe's science of psychosociopathology does so well. And just a reminder, our colleague Gilbert Gambucci is implementing a number of these practical steps at Occupy Wall Street these days. I'll try to have an interview with him shortly.
The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Always great to hear from you. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
