Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking With Somebody Else's Head. The idea of being a victim of evil is quite a comfortable one, writes Norberto Keppe in his book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism. But what's really going on, he continues, is that the human being actually selects the type of evil he wants in his life. Well, that's sobering. I hope this happens unconsciously because the conscious choice for evil seems rather terrifying. Kepi's view that we summon evil contradicts the common idea that we're victimized by it.
Even the exorcist movies, those most graphic of illustrations of possession by evil, show the possessed as being an unwilling recipient of the accursed spiritual invasions. What Kepi's trying to alert us to here is the very real presence of evil spirits in the human experience and our considerable role in giving them so much freedom to run amok on our planet. But there's another aspect at play in this process, the subterfuge of the demons. And that's not a once-in-a-while thing.
It's constant. Seduction by evil today on thinking with somebody else's head. We're into Episode 5 in our series now, based on Norberto Keppe's staggering book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, where he tries to bring us up to speed on his scientific discoveries of the reality of malefic spiritual interference in our human affairs. Now, I'm aware that this all seems too much for our modern, I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it, just-the-facts-ma'am, physical-evidence-based way of seeing reality, so to have any basis for understanding what in the bleep Norberto
Kepi is talking about. We have to pull in the wisdom from books and thinkers from the past. John Milton wrote an epic poem about man's fall from paradise, instigated by Lucifer, who proudly boasted, better to reign in hell than serve in heaven, and I submit that Milton meant this story much more literally than allegorically. Dante Alighieri's devil is a giant monster weeping blood and pus, Gertz Faust makes the classic bargain for fame and eternal youth, C.S. Lewis went through a soul-searching academic quest to evolve from skeptic to believer,
and his screw-tape letters formed the basis of my high school play all those years ago, where I played Mike, a poor soul being tempted by a demon for some 100-plus pages. Back when I was 18, I had no theological upbringing to have any inkling of what this play was really about. But I can tell you, from what I've learned working closely with Norberto Keppe and Claudia Bernhard Pacheco over the last 17 years, this would prompt a wholly new interpretation of this play were I to be cast today.
Of course, age would be a factor as well. And then there's the master Satan hunter, Jesus himself, who warned us repeatedly of the fact of Lucifer and his establishing a domain here. Your enemy, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour, Jesus warns us. And I'm inclined to take that into consideration, despite the materialistic worldview brought by Descartes and Bacon and Einstein that we're all steeped in today. If the God of this age is actually Lucifer, as Jesus also said, we are
worshipping in the wrong direction, and our steps in this way will lead us to exactly where we are today, teetering on the precipice of annihilation. I think, then, we owe it to ourselves to open up a little to include this ancient wisdom in our worldview, exactly what Norberto Keppe is trying to do with his science of psychosocial-spiritual pathology called Analytical Trilogy. And he's declaring very strongly that we are not victims of demonic influence, but active seekers of it.
So let's get into that today. Seduction by Evil, our program today when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns in just a moment on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: A look at society's most pressing problem. Norberto Keppe's disinversion of economics is work and capital.
A key inversion in science.
Cesar Soós: Always we are trying to extract energy from a material element.
Richard: And its negative consequences.
Cesar: We provoke serious imbalances in nature.
Richard: corrected now with the Kepi Motor's disinversion of physics.
Cesar: And we developed a way to have mechanical power with very little electricity.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: This will make a big change, not only in energetic efficiency, but also it will bring better energy in homes because it's magnetic energy.
Richard: The Kepi Motor, new technology for a new world. We
are part of an exciting initiative here in Brazil
that includes leading-edge psychological sessions available by phone or Skype worldwide. Top-level translation services in a vast number of languages, online and classroom language classes using a proven psycholinguistic method and highly trained teachers that help you learn faster and easier and an innovative social project that offers multiple opportunities for you to participate and learn so you can apply these initiatives in your communities worldwide.
Now, back to Thinking With Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. Graham is
Richard: Thinking With Somebody Else's Head. You are on the Stop Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. You know, we've been doing a program, a series of programs now, that has been well-received on Dr. Kepi's new book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, actually his even newer book, Sociotherapy and Exorcism, which we can't keep up. We finished translating one, and he's got another one ready to go. It's incredible.
Dr. Claudia Bernhard-Basheko is with me again. And, you know, I was thinking about this fact of consciousness of evil spirits. This is not something in the first world that we are accustomed to talking about. And I found an interesting paper that was written relatively recently from the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Scientific Study of Religion. And they say that their study suggests that belief in demons and evil spirits is harmful to mental health. So their idea is that just thinking about them makes you sick.
It's really naive,
Cláudia: isn't it? It's the inversion that if you see something, it exists. If you don't see, it doesn't exist and won't bother you. So keep away from your sight and you will have no trouble.
Richard: Out of sight, out of mind.
Cláudia: Yes, yes. Well, I think we should go a little bit back in history. Okay, great. And think up to when this concept that demons could cause problems, epilepsy, psychosis, neurosis, physical illnesses, hysteria. So,
Richard: up to
Cláudia: a movement, a scientific movement, more or less at the time of Freud, when Freud started his studies, he went to Paris, because Paris was the true center of culture,
Richard: everything.
In the late 1800s, it was the
Cláudia: center. medicine was really French up to some time in history it was French up to
Richard: 1913 Claudia there were about I think it between the years 1900 to 1913 the French won 11 Nobel Prizes medicine science not to say
Cláudia: that Nobel Prize is the peak of things but it shows that there was a lot of development going on right and then it went to Vienna a little bit after that but okay so thinking
back, the center of studies, of these studies, were in Saint-Petrière, which was a hospital for mentally sick patients. And Charcot started his researches with hypnosis. And what did Charcot realized that there is an unconscious. There is an unconscious. The person really has a level of his mental and emotional activities that are not in the level of open knowledge, let's say so, or some... Hidden from view somehow. Yes, hidden, hidden, hidden feelings, hidden intentions, hidden, like a hidden dimension even, a hidden dimension beyond the five senses.
And one of these proofs of the existence of a dimension which is beyond our five senses is hypnosis. It's very scientific because, for instance, when the person was put under hypnosis, he or she would say things that he would never know under a normal state of consciousness. He would say things and know things, and like if they entered in a room, and after hypnosis they would say every detail of that room.
Richard: They couldn't remember this consciously, but under hypnosis…
Cláudia: They could never ever remember. They would say, no, I didn't see anything of those. I
Richard: didn't see any books, I didn't see any socks on the floor, nothing. Yes.
Cláudia: And they remember those details under hypnosis. Absolutely. And also a lot of preview of things, previewing things.
Richard: Like this telepathy.
Cláudia: Telepathy, not only, but also precognition, we say in
Richard: Portuguese. Precognition. Precognition. Things happening in the future.
Cláudia: Yes. So people under hypnosis, they know a lot of things. Or they show they know much more than they express in conscious life.
And saying this, they started to think, okay, so this has nothing, nothing to do with spirits or demons. This is something that is only, only inside the mind of a human
Richard: being. Are you saying this was the beginning of the break then with this knowledge? The beginning
Cláudia: of the break. The beginning of the break. Of the spirituality. So they never considered that
Richard: this level of unconscious life, which transcends the
Cláudia: five senses, transcends. That this level could be in touch, in connection to spiritual life.
Richard: This is obvious, Claudia. This would be obvious. How could
Cláudia: they dismiss that so easily? Yeah, but they did because they
Richard: had this kind of materialistic, positivistic view at that time. They were very positivistic and they were eager
Cláudia: to prove that everything the church had brought in terms of philosophy, psychology, theology, was everything a mistake or at least to say so a mistake. But they said it was deception. It was a means to
Richard: superstition, to
Cláudia: control the people, to control everybody.
So they were eager to destroy theology at that time. And this was enough for them to say, no, there is nothing to do with demons or spirits.
Richard: It's an unconscious thing inside the human being that he doesn't see. Yes. No influence.
Cláudia: Yes. But you know something? Another proof that other beings can control your mind without your acknowledgement and sometimes without even your conscious permission is hypnosis. Because if you put something in a person in this like state of trance, in hypnosis, you can order them, give orders, and they will obey these orders.
And this kind of dictations, they are forgotten. Right after the person is brought back to conscious, these orders are forgotten.
Richard: Yeah, totally. Until the bell rings or the person says a magic word and then suddenly they are stimulated.
Cláudia: And they receive some instructions that they obey like automatically without even knowing. Why do I want this or why did I do this?
Richard: I just want to clarify, Claudia, that in the studies that I've read about, they can't be ordered to do anything against their will, though.
Is that true? Like, I don't know the details of that.
Cláudia: There are people who have a very soft ethics or soft will, let's say so. They are very influential. Malleable. Malleable. And there
Richard: are those or some that
Cláudia: have a very strong ethics. And they won't do something that will be against their ethics.
Richard: Even under hypnosis.
Cláudia: Even under hypnosis. And this is something that shows for us is a proof that there is not a possibility of a possession without the consent of the possessed one.
Okay, there is no possession. But going a little bit still at that time. Just let me
Richard: go with that idea. Dr. Kepi said something about this in his new book. human beings must become like semi-demons for them to mesh with evil. He says that in order for us to follow a
Cláudia: demonic suggestion, we have to,
Richard: like, agree with it at some level. Okay, but
Cláudia: this is so easy. This is
Richard: absolutely the whole of humanity. In
Cláudia: levels, in degrees, the whole of humanity is already meshing with
Richard: evil
Cláudia: since we are born.
So this is not something like there is a group of people or some people, few people. No, not only those satanic followers or, you know, no, it's everybody. It's within all of us. Evil is within humanity. So when Charcot brought this idea, they were able to interfere in the unconscious of the person or in this subconscious level. So, that's what we are seeing now in practice, this level or this dimension which is beyond our five senses, but not necessarily always beyond.
Sometimes it includes physical experiences with spirits. But this unseen, this unheard level, they are very active and they are meshing with the negative or the evil spiritual beings. And people are not aware of this.
Richard: Yeah, and as you said, it's sort of like the scientific world excluded the spiritual as a possibility. Absolutely. It's not
Cláudia: a possibility. Yeah, they denied this possibility.
Richard: So it was either spirits or the subconscious, the natural subconscious.
Yeah. And what Cappy sees is there is not such a thing as natural subconscious.
Cláudia: We start, since we are born, to create a basement where we hide everything we don't want to see. We don't think it's pleasant to be seen or admitted. And this basement can be full of evil things. Like
Richard: everybody's basement. Yeah. Full of stuff
Cláudia: you don't want to see. More or less, you have there things you don't want to see. Everybody has.
Richard: Yeah, I think this is a fundamental
Cláudia: point. There, there, there, in there, demons hide like these movies of Dracula.
They hide in a coffin in the basement where no light will see them or will hit them or destroy them, which is no consciousness goes to this unconscious basement we create. So what do we see then in our therapy? If one goes deep enough in our psychological basement, this pseudo-unconscious or this artificial unconscious, we don't like what we see there. But bringing light, evil dissipates
Richard: and stops
Cláudia: being pathological, creating symptoms, creating diseases, dominating the life of that person.
Demons interfere in our lives through our unconscious.
Richard: As Dr. Kepi calls it, the process of inconscientization, right?
Cláudia: Yes.
Cesar: We hide from view what we don't want to see. And then it appears, as Freud discovered, it appears again,
Richard: but not as a natural. It's like an unnatural, in a sense, thing that we've done. And it begins to appear in the actions that we do. And we think, oh, my God, why did I do that? Not perceiving the bad intentions or the negative
Cláudia: thoughts we have.
This was called in psychoanalysis, atos falhos. Yeah,
Richard: this is slips of the tongue.
Cláudia: No, slips of the tongue is one thing, and
Richard: atus fallus is another thing. It's the same thing in English. You do something you weren't intending to do.
Cláudia: No, you can say things is slip of the tongue, and if
Richard: you do is atus fallus. We don't have a word for that.
Cláudia: Okay, so.
Richard: You do something that you didn't want to do. Yes. It's
Cláudia: like this.
You say or you do things that you don't want
Richard: to do. It's like a slip of some sort. Oh, I didn't mean that.
Cláudia: Yes.
Richard: Or
Cláudia: you forget things. you go to one place you should go to one place and then you go to another one
Richard: of my students was telling me a story of when she was going to school she was a little bit late and she was ironing her clothes and she said oh my god
I'm late she had to throw her clothes on she went to school she was doing it at school normal having lunch with her friends and everything on the way home she suddenly remembered again oh my god I forgot to unplug the iron and I've used that in the classes is an example of the fact that she was conscious, she knew about it, otherwise she would never have remembered it after school. She knew about it, but hid that from consciousness.
It's like a hiding of something bad, and it shows an intention in some way.
Cláudia: And there is the action in this situation of this hypnotic agent, which are the demons. they act like people who perform hypnosis. They hypnotize people. They try to do this all the time, and they go little by little seducing people with seduction, the same as in a session of hypnotism. It's a form of, like, seduction, little by
Richard: little, bit by bit. Do this, try that.
go there.
Cláudia: Yeah. So relax. Okay. So listen to this sound and imagine
Richard: a place. Now let, let go, let
Cláudia: go, let go. And this letting go, it's so, so dangerous because this letting go is what happens when you drink alcohol. Sometimes when you smoke marijuana or crack or, or other things, when you let go and you condone with pleasures or all sorts of seductions. Like, okay, so I don't have money, but I can't deny giving me this pleasure of buying this thing.
I deserve it.
Richard: So let it go. Let it go. Don't worry. It will be
Cláudia: okay. Don't worry. It will be okay. Let go. Let go. This hypnotic let go, let go is really dangerous because it's not only something from our inner minds. It's coming from this other dimension, this subconscious level where the spirits are very active, even though not physically or seen or heard. But they are there speaking. Meditation? Meditation is dangerous. Really? Yes. Good idea.
Yeah. Yeah. Meditation. Yes, when you let go and you enter in this trance state.
Richard: Yeah, this emptier
Cláudia: mind state, this sort of… You open up to all these beings of this dimension. Malachi Martin used to say that there is a plateau between the conscious life and eternity. this plateau is like a middle thing in between in between
Richard: our dimension and
Cláudia: the heavenly
Richard: dimension
Cláudia: it's like an interface between
Richard: our
Cláudia: conscious life and eternity or the transcendental life
and this interface is very dangerous he used to speak about these trips out of the body or out of the body experiences. Out
Richard: of the body experiences, yeah.
Cláudia: This is something that he used to say were very, very dangerous because then you enter in this trans... Transitory?
Richard: Trans state. Trans state.
Cláudia: Like a trance state. Transy. Like a
Richard: trance.
Cláudia: A trance. And then when you enter this, you get in an hypnotic state And then you receive orders and you become possessed by the will of another person and the others of another beings.
The same as in hypnotism. Wow. I remember. That's powerful. I remember two or three people tried to hypnotize me. They never could do this. Never. I believe. And I think, my God, why people let to be hypnotized? How does this happen? But this happens, and this is very frequent. Now, I was not hypnotized by another human being, but God knows how many times I was hypnotized by demons. Every time I did something that was against something natural, against myself,
I was hypnotized by demons.
Richard: It's a type of seduction, isn't it? I
Cláudia: remember one, if you want to have an example. Sure. Because
Richard: children are very much influenced. Yes.
Cláudia: I was a child. I was 10 years old, and I was in a building during my vacation time on the beach. Very beautiful. There is a place, Ilha Porchat, Porchat Island. And I was there with my aunt and my cousins and my mother. and there was an elevator.
Richard: Elevator shaft.
Cláudia: And a voice came to me and said, look, there are so many thieves and murderers and criminals around here at the time. Imagine if one of those enter in this...
Richard: Elevator shaft.
Cláudia: Elevator shaft and hide himself there.
Richard: Yeah. Waiting for
Cláudia: you. Waiting for you. And then I was like taken to this place. To the elevator? To the elevator. I
Richard: went down to the middle of the shaft where there was a place like a box.
You're not in the elevator now. You're climbing down the shaft.
Cláudia: I was
Richard: inside the elevator. Inside the elevator and you went to the middle of the passage.
Cláudia: Yeah, and there was like a place, there was like a box inside this, and this voice came and said, look, stop here, because if a criminal is
Richard: hiding inside the
Cláudia: box, if you come, he will shoot you or threaten you with a gun or something. So what did I do?
I opened the door, and the voice said, try to close the door now, because if he's a fat guy, his belly will not fit here. So see if a fat thief or criminal can fit in here. So I closed the door. And when I closed the door, somebody called upstairs, and the elevator went up. And then I had my two arms smashed. You
Richard: were dangling by your two arms outside the
Cláudia: elevator car. Almost died. It was something like, it was
Richard: like a movie, a Hollywood movie, horror movie at that time.
Okay, just a sec, Claudia. I want to try to make sure that people are understanding this. Claudia was in an elevator shaft. It was one of those old elevators, you know, with the crisscross doors that you see in the old Hollywood movies. and she could open this door by hand and step out onto a small ledge that was part of a sort of mezzanine floor, just a small ledge she could stand on there. And then somebody called the elevator and the elevator started to go up.
So she closed the doors and grabbed onto the doors and was being pulled up by the elevator. This is how I understand the story.
Cláudia: And here I am, because the angel and Jesus Christ saved
Richard: me. I was a small child, and I asked for the child Jesus, and I saw him coming from heaven.
Cláudia: And then he dictated my mother all the rules, what should she do in order to save me. Nobody believed she was able to do that.
But here I am. I have my two
Richard: arms, I can write. Incredible.
Cláudia: I wrote my books with my hands. You
Richard: have your own hands. Look at
Cláudia: me. So this was something clearly demonic, clearly demonic. And so many examples of those happen with everybody. So jump from here. And some people cannot avoid. They are hypnotized.
Richard: This is, I don't know how much time we have, but this is like mind control in a way, spiritual mind control,
Cláudia: isn't it?
Absolutely. And demons do this. We are, humanity is under a spell, under hypnosis. You
Richard: mentioned Malachi Martin in his book. He's an exorcist, former exorcist at the Catholic Church. He mentioned in his book a case of this. It's one of the most powerful cases in the book of a young boy who was seduced by the nature. He was on his uncle's farm, I think. And he was lying in the woods, and he had this experience of being totally in contact with the oneness of the universe.
It must have been a very beautiful experience. and he was like and the voices he was hearing or the sensation he was having was go further go further let yourself go let yourself enter this oneness we are all one you are not separate you are one with everything which seems like a beautiful message but contained inside this was the seduction of demons entering giving him the idea that he came from a superior level of consciousness that he was a very old soul
putting all of these ideas in him that led him to very serious condition, almost died during the exorcism. It's exactly what you're describing. I'm just having this very powerful impression.
Cláudia: Because when we open doors like this to the subconscious level, then all these beings from this plateau, they come in. They enter. They enter.
Richard: They've taken Kirlian photographs of people drinking and saying that there are many demons around them looking for
Cláudia: ways to get in. And sometimes they come physically.
They come physically. And to get out is not easy.
Richard: It's very difficult to get them out once they're in. That's chilling. Mankind under a demonic spell. These do not seem like modern ideas, do they? What are we proposing? That we go back in time to where we burned witches and lived in superstitious fear of demons inhabiting the square corners of houses? Far from it. Fact is, we need to deepen our spiritual intelligence. We dismiss these spiritual phenomena as just random craziness at our peril.
Clearly, there's much we don't know because we've diminished our intellectual capacity to a point where we can't comprehend this reality anymore. More next week.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and welcome to the Stop Radio Network. We broadcast from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in Sao Paulo, Brazil. And our programs, Thinking With Somebody Else's Head and Healing Through Consciousness, offer the most relevant conversations around about the state of our world
and what we can do to make it better.
Cláudia: Since the beginning of all civilizations, they had always manifested an enormous interest and knowledge about the spiritual life and spiritual beings.
Richard: It's a world of ancient wisdom that modern science has eliminated.
Cesar: The arising philosophy of positivism preferred to base science on material happenings.
Cláudia: So, only what you can see and touch and feel is real.
Richard: Now, spirituality is being put back into science.
Cláudia: Imagine what would happen if people start considering this as a real thing.
Not only as a religious thing, but also a real scientific thing. Imagine what would happen.
