Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. All of us, if we've lived a little, have had to contend with the lure of temptation. From the mundane, just one more piece of chocolate cake, to the come on of a cold beer when you've got a drinking problem, to the more serious attractions to violence and crime, we all know the experience of that voice in our ear.
Our modern scientific perspective would have us seek evidence-based interventions as solutions, leading us to explain away vice and bad habits as weakness, upbringing, chemical imbalance, even genetic disposition. We seldom in our modern world even think of putting temptation down to influence from nefarious spirits. Reason over superstition would read the promotional literature for that modern point of view. But are we missing something in excluding the theological view?
After all, Jesus warned us time and again of our unhealthy subservience to demons, and perhaps we should listen more carefully to that advice. Man's greatest enemy, today, on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. This is the fourth in our series based on Herberto Keppe's new book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, a book that conducts a scientific study of the link between possession and psychology.
24-hour stream there. We also stream through iTunes radio stations, and all of our programs are downloadable as individual podcasts. Just search Thinking with Somebody Else's Head in any podcatcher that you use. You'll also find our programs featured on the Psychotherapy and Exorcism webpage we've set up, as a resource guide for this book. That's at psychotherapyandexorcism.org. I mentioned that Keppe is conducting a scientific study of the link between exorcism and psychology for a specific reason.
There has been a notable rise in people seeking exorcism in Catholic and evangelical churches in a number of locations around the world, including the U.S., France, and Italy. The traditional London newspaper, The Times, that most British of newspapers, recently warned travelers to France to be wary of diabolic activity. Not sure if they meant that tongue-in-cheek or not. This jump in requests for exorcism, highlighted by the Vatican-recognized International Association of Exorcists, established in 2014, has led to an indignation of the skeptical in the media and scientific communities.
People are getting hurt, headlines The Guardian, and inside that paper, a common misconception that the violent abuse and crime linked to notions of witchcraft and demonic possession is being fed by the interest in the practice of exorcism. For believers in the reality of spiritual influence in the world, exorcism is a practice that attempts to solve these crises. This is a common baby-and-the-bathwater scenario where all things spiritual are considered to be outdated, pushed into the archaic by the dominance of rational science.
Keppe is trying to bridge the gap between these two perspectives. He's a sober scientist, steeped in clinical treatment of physical, psychological, and emotional problems with a vast clientele worldwide, but he's also deeply spiritual, his spirituality reinforced by the questions and anxieties of his clients who bring deeply spiritual reflections to their sessions of analysis. Keppe follows the great English psychoanalyst Wilfred Bion in abandoning formulas in psychotherapeutic treatment for a closer attention to what the client is saying.
So where a modern medically trained professional would shrug off a patient's claims of hearing voices as a blanket mental or organic illness in need of medication, Keppe would consider this as a case of the mixture of the physiological and the spiritual. As the body and soul are inseparable elements, this brings a more comprehensive view to patient treatment. After all, Keppe worked for more than 30 years at the medical school of Latin America's biggest hospital, where he noted the similarity between the physiological and the psychological etiology of disease states.
For him, the usual evidence exorcists use to diagnose cases of possession, things like speaking in tongues, abnormal strength, even levitation and materializing objects, can often be real. And, he states, we ignore that reality at great peril, for not believing in spiritual forces does not make us immune to their influence. In fact, outrightly dismissing the existence of the forces of evil puts us much more under their influence.
As I said at the beginning of the program, we've been warned many times by mystics and saints and even the Holy Mother and Jesus Himself of the presence of evil in and around us. There is an enemy, and he's not only us. We'll consider humankind's greatest enemy when we return.
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Richard: A key inversion in science.
Cesar Soós: Always we are trying to extract energy from a material element.
Richard: And its negative consequences.
Cesar: We provoke serious imbalances in nature.
Richard: Corrected now with the Keppe Motors disinversion of physics.
Cesar: And we developed a way to have mechanical power with very little electricity.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: This will make a big change, not only in energetic efficiency, but also it will bring better energy in homes because it's magnetic energy. The
Richard: Keppe Motor. New technology for a new world. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, host of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, here on the Stop Radio Network. You know, I receive emails all the time from people who resonate with our shows and the science behind them, called the science of Analytical Trilogy.
People like trilogy's perspective on economics and health and energy, how trilogy's psychological perspective goes to the root causes of human problems. But sometimes people ask me, but what can I do about all this? How can I help to contribute to the greater consciousness on the planet? I tell them the same thing. Our trilogical books and TV shows are a rich source of knowledge that you need if you want to be an effective change agent today.
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We've had a lot of interest in our first couple of programs. And we're based on Dr. Kempi's new book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism. We haven't even gotten around to translating his most recent book, which is Sociotherapy and Exorcism. We'll get to that soon. But for now, there is a lot of material in this book for us to consider. And I've been talking, of course, with Dr.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, who is Dr. Kempi's right hand. And for 40 years, maybe more, I don't like to date us too much, Cláudia.
Cláudia: So everybody will know how old I
Richard: am. Yeah, I get depressed. But, you
Cláudia: know, in the field of psychoanalysis, it's a good thing not to be young. We have more experience. We have more wisdom after
Richard: so many years working and living.
Thank you. I feel better. Somebody said to me on my birthday recently, he said, well, Richard, one year wiser. I said,
Cláudia: that's an excellent way to put it. Yeah, yeah.
Richard: Because we have to have our age for something, right? Exactly. So, we were talking before the program about this question.
Cláudia: If we use correctly, every year we get wiser. If not, we get dumber and more stupid, and we get worse.
Richard: I noticed that. You can see sometimes when you're a kid, your grandparents are like really wise and have a lot of sage advice. And other times they're so afraid they can't leave the house. So here we are talking about a lot of our problems, you know, and now you say something good about being a little bit older. It's like a good news for us.
We're accustomed in Analytical Trilogy to seeing the difficulties that we have, that human being has to see problems. And we were talking before. So isn't this like negative? I remember my first psychoanalysis session with you. By telephone, I was in New York. I still remember that many years ago now. I was talking about the difficulties of moving from Toronto to New York, and it was not easy, and I was doing well, but it was a challenge.
And you said, right at the end, very lightly, you said, do you think it's possible maybe that you initiated this move to make your life more difficult? And I remember thinking and saying, I think I said, well, I can't think like that. If I think like that, I won't get out of bed in the morning. What kind of advice is that? How can I think negatively?
I've got to be armado, armed, you know, to go out into this jungle of a world in New York and survive. How can I start thinking negatively? So we thought we would start with that aspect. How is seeing our problems so often a good thing for us?
Cláudia: By the way, this morning I was attending a client, and she said, oh, now I have been here for a time, and I got so much better in many ways.
I'm better in the relationship with my mother, with my son. Now I am being much more useful. I help a group of older women. Every week I go there. They are very much benefited by the reading groups I do with them. And lately I have been spending more money than I should. So the course I was attending on Saturday, Saturday mornings with you, is fantastic.
I love it, it's
Richard: the best thing I ever did in my life.
Cláudia: But I have to stop for two or three months
Richard: because then I put my
Cláudia: bills in order. And when people start explaining things like I should spend less money in analysis or in these activities, it's already a sign that the person is thinking that analysis is causing some sort of impoverishment, like I'm getting poorer here.
I'm losing something. I'm losing. So it's not the money I'm spending. It's not bringing enough benefits. So this is not something real rational. It's a kind of irrational. But later on, when I asked her what did she associate with the course, and she said light, energy, because I get energized every time I go there. I get very much energized, and there are many, many subjects that are very interesting.
But I have this problem in spending more than I should, and I feel uncomfortable, blah, blah, blah. So I asked her, what do you associate spending more money than you should? And she said, well, it's a sort of imbalance. I'm not dealing correctly with reality. And I told her, okay, so then you are not wanting to stop for a while the course and put your accounting in order.
You are more interested in escaping from this consciousness that you are having now because you have been always the same. And now you are having better a consciousness of how you, like you are unbalanced.
Richard: You sabotage yourself.
Cláudia: And you are sabotaging yourself and you are not balancing in spending money and in other areas. So it's an escape from consciousness you are doing.
And she said then, then she was sincere, and she said, don't I get too depressed to see so many problems in myself as I have been seeing? Lately, I thought, okay, so I saw enough. Now I should stop a little bit of seeing so many wrong things in myself and so much like pathological attitudes. But then she said, okay, but this is logical because if I don't see better how I deal, like the wrong way, what I do destructively, I do with my finances, I can get into trouble.
And I really got into trouble before analysis, financially speaking. So, and then the consequence of the analysis was that she thinks mistakenly and invertedly that if she sees pathology in herself, she will get depressed.
Richard: She will get depressed and
Cláudia: harmed. Yeah, she will get worse, she will get depressed.
Richard: Won't be able to get out of bed in the morning.
Cláudia: Yes, as you mentioned.
As I mentioned, yeah. So, here we come. Nobody wants to see mistakes in oneself. Nobody, nobody. This is something everybody rejects. To be criticized? Never. If we accept to be criticized, then it should be with such an affection and, you know, just an excuse. But we don't like to see when we are mistaken, and sometimes not only mistaken, but ill-intentioned, because ill-intentions, they turn against us.
They end up by turning against ourselves. So now we go to something, Richard, another step here in our conversation. This is not only a matter of every, like, day-to-day simple things of life. This is a philosophical and a theological matter, and scientific. When people question the method that Keppe uses, consciousness of errors, consciousness of problems, Consciousness of pathology, consciousness of evil, consciousness of what is negative, so consciousness of disease, consciousness of what is wrong.
So, come on, can I bear so much consciousness of what is wrong, what is problematic? And we call Keppe's method as Christian and Kepian dialectics. What is the Christian dialectics? The Sermon of the Mount. Yeah,
Richard: Sermon of the Mount. Sermon of
Cláudia: the Mount. And there is the Christian dialectics. The importance of being humble, the importance of admitting one's sins and mistakes and problems.
And he puts this all the time in his teachings. It's such an enormous importance of being humble.
Richard: Yes. Meek, he calls it meek sometimes too, right? Yes. Turning
Cláudia: the
Richard: other cheek and accepting the criticism of others, listening to the counsel of others. He talks all the time about these.
Cláudia: Because this humbleness, Richard, guarantees that we stay like with the feet on the ground.
And the arrogance and the megalomania, this excessive perfectionistic attitude, it's very sick. It's very arrogant. It's very like proud. It's being proud. And arrogance and pride are things that make us leave the ground and go like balloons. And the fall, it's very painful when we
Richard: need to fall down back to earth. Yes, and when you use pride, you use pride in the original theological sense, which
Cláudia: is exaggerated arrogance.
It's more than just being proud of yourself. We speak in Portuguese soberba,
Richard: soberba. I think it's the first capital
Cláudia: sin, the first deadly sin. Yes, because this makes us blind, blind, in darkness,
Richard: darkness. We get so
Cláudia: crazy. We are like godlike. So we get, it's very harmful. And Keppe uses the same dialectics. And there is another very important subject here. And now we go into psychotherapy and exorcism.
Who are those who can't bear seeing anything wrong in themselves eternally?
Richard: These are the demons.
Cláudia: Because they see themselves as gods already. Yeah. So if we admit seeing a problem, a pathology in us, The demons that are in us, around us, linked to
Cesar: us,
Richard: in telepathy with us,
Cláudia: they really can't bear. Seeing themselves in a bad situation. They can't feel feelings of guilt.
They can't be humble because they have chosen theomania in themselves, for themselves, like eternally. So they can't bear. That's why they stay in darkness. That's why they stay hidden. That's why they always speak as God to us, as the wise ones, as the smart ones, as the intelligent ones.
Richard: They show this in the movies. Vampires can't see themselves in the mirror. Exactly.
Cláudia: They can't bear. They can't bear. Because the consciousness of any consciousness, and consciousness of our pathologies, has an energy, like a divine energy in it, a powerful divine energy.
Richard: Consciousness of our pathologies has a divine energy.
Cláudia: Yes, consciousness of a sin in us, our sins, has a divine, powerful energy, godly energy. It's like resurrection. It's like if you really admit a sin, if you really admit and humble yourself and admit a problem, a mistake or something, then you get into resonance.
You stay in tune with the truth.
Richard: Yeah. Is this the principle of confession in the church?
Cláudia: Yes. It's the principle of the true, honest confession. Right. Then you get in tune with God, you go down in your arrogance, you humble yourself, and then you are able to open yourself to God's grace, and God's grace is energy, and God's grace is lifting. You don't need to say God's grace to clients, but when they are humble and honest, they automatically receive God's energy and grace.
This is the power of repentance, isn't it? Yes, it is.
Richard: Wasn't there a story in the Bible, Jesus' crucifixion? Wasn't there a criminal there on the cross? As
Cláudia: they say, the good thief.
Richard: Yeah, who repented. He said something to the effect that when the other, there were two criminals there with him. When one criminal said something against Jesus and this other one said, no, no, no, you can't compare this guy to us.
We're criminals and he is not.
Cláudia: Yeah,
Richard: so here,
Cláudia: this guy, and then this good thief, they call him Saint, and Saint Dimas, as we speak in Portuguese.
Richard: Saint Dimas. I don't even know what that
Cláudia: is in English, but okay. So this guy, in order to say this, and in order to be in heaven with Jesus at that same day, as Jesus said, promised, you will be in heaven with me today.
Richard: Because of his repentance.
Cláudia: Because of his attitude. So what did he do? First, he admitted he was a criminal. Yeah. He admitted. Yeah. And then he saw the goodness in Jesus and honesty, and he admitted Jesus' goodness and honesty.
Richard: And that he was nowhere close to that.
Cláudia: And he was humble enough not to envy Jesus and not to project onto Jesus his criminality as the others did.
So he was a human being that did not project onto Jesus his own sins as humanity does. Because humanity projects onto Jesus their own heavy sins. And that's why they say Jesus carried the whole bunch of sins of the whole humanity.
Richard: The whole weight of human sins. Yes, yes.
Cláudia: His cross, right? Because humanity projected onto Jesus the evil they had in themselves.
And the goodness Jesus had, they saw in themselves. It's projective. Inverted projection. Inverted projection. That's what Dr. Kemp is calling it. Yeah.
Richard: Let's come back and talk about that. It's fascinating, and I have a few comments. We'll come back in just a moment. I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Home to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head and healing through consciousness, this is the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: Tuesday in New York, and Gwen's headache is now five days old. Wednesday in London, and Ronald's left the hospital for the streets again. It's Thursday in Mogadishu, and angry students are protesting against corruption. Whether the illness is physical, psychological, or social, Norberto Keppe's The Origin of Illness is a book that gets to the bottom of it and offers a solution.
Richard: Thank you. With somebody else's head of the Stop Radio Network, I'm Richard Lloyd Jones with Cláudia Baron-Harper-Sheikho. We've entered, I just realized as you were speaking, we've entered a kind of a beautiful dimension. I was thinking many things as you were speaking about the Christian dialectics and Jesus' example and this idea of inverted projection.
I remember the case. It's one of the few stories I remember from my misspent years as a youth. I went to Sunday school for a few years as a kid. And one of the stories I remember, one of the few stories I remember, is the story of the woman who had committed adultery. And the men who were wanting to stone her as following the law, Jesus' law passed down through Moses.
This is their idea. And Jesus' great response to that was, let you who have no sin throw the first stone. And that's a fabulous phrase because it's not judging anyone. It's not telling anyone what to do. It's putting the responsibility into the person. If you are so clean, then you can judge the other person. If not, you know. But what's interesting is what happened after.
Because the moment he said, you can imagine all the guys there, They're totally pumped up and angry, frustrated because they're seeing all of the pathology of the world in this poor woman who did sin, as Jesus said. But
Cláudia: everybody has sinned.
Richard: Yes, everyone has sinned. And then having to stand there and go, now what? Now what do I do? Now what do
Cláudia: I do with all this consciousness?
Richard: And that can cause two things, as Gandhi said. If a man strikes you and you strike back, he has an excuse to hit harder. But if you don't respond with violence, now the person has a decision. It's exactly what Jesus did. This is the dialectic thing you're mentioning. Now we have a choice. We can rise up in our resonance and respond, yes, that's true.
I'm a sinner too. Who am I to judge? Or we can get angry at the person who gave us this consciousness.
Cláudia: And when you get angry back, it's not that you
Richard: are reciprocating, but
Cláudia: you are in the same level. You are like entering in resonance, like in the
Richard: same level of vibration. So you lower down and
Cláudia: then demons get you. They take you.
Richard: Yeah, and they take us through our emotions and our thoughts, right? And then consequently our actions. But it's exactly as you said. We lower our vibration to the level of vengeance, these lower levels, instead of rising up to the level of forgiveness and tolerance and humility. That's
Cláudia: why Jesus said, don't oppose to evil, don't oppose evil. It's not the sense of not opposing evil.
It's not that you're not going to say no to evil. For sure you have to,
Richard: you have to recognize it,
Cláudia: yes, and say no to evil, not get involved in evil things. But it's do not enter in resonance, do not respond. Because if you respond in the same level with the same emotion, then you get caught, you get caught by the same demons that the person is presenting, the same evil, the same demons, they get you.
They get you if you respond at the same level. We
Richard: don't think of it as responding with demons, but in Dr. Keppe's work now,
Cláudia: we're seeing that this is a resonance with a demon level of energy. If we do not consider spirit pathology, we are not really doing true analysis and true psychotherapy. We need always to enter into this subject. Even if the person is an atheist, we have to.
We have to mention, we have to focus on this because they can understand and they can know that they are being, like, obsessed, they are being persecuted, they are being deceived by evil spirits.
Richard: Yeah, this is really important. Now, let's come back to this point you were making at the beginning, Cláudia, about consciousness, the importance of consciousness, of errors. Even Jesus said, I can't tell you everything now.
Yeah. Because you can't bear it. Yeah. So are you suggesting
Cláudia: that now we have to start bearing it? We need to. Otherwise, what will happen? We see things deteriorating so fast. My God. My God. You know what? I have read one of these days that a lot of white male Americans from 45 to 54 are dying much more than they should, that between 99 and 2003 500 000 americans in this situation died young man that should not have died.
So this is so strange. It
Richard: didn't mention, but
Cláudia: they said many reasons, like drugs, like whatever, heart attacks, but they are dying. So if this is happening, it's not only a socioeconomic, psychological problem. There is something evil, very evil going on in humanity. And we see now people dying like flies, poof, poof, poof. And in young ages, and we see nature responding heavily to this mistreatment that nature is getting from humanity.
So if we don't see this quickly, we are taking the risk of Lucifer succeeding in his plan. In
Richard: his domination of…
Cláudia: In his plan of annihilating humanity. Yeah. The end of Lucifer in his plans is to liquidate with humanity.
Richard: Because humanity is a creation of God. He wants to,
Cláudia: in a way, attack God. He can't attack, he can't destroy God. Exactly that.
Exactly that. Wow. So every war, every problem, every catastrophe, every corruption, it's linked and inspired by Lucifer and his followers because they are the number one
Richard: enemy of us. And they're not kidding. They are really doing something to destroy humanity. They are
Cesar: committed. Totally, totally.
Richard: Committed to it, yeah. To annihilate. Now, going
Cláudia: back to this thing that you mentioned, when Jesus was here, demons came to him and said, why do you come to torment us?
Why are you tormenting us? Because the truth causes torment to demons. As the truth cause torment to sick individuals, to psychotic individuals, to psychopaths, to human beings in general. They don't want to see the truth, whatever truth. So daydreaming is the law. It's a psychological law everywhere, daydreaming, because people don't accept the truth as if truth was a torment. An enemy. Yeah, tormenting.
And this is totally inversion, totally upside down, totally 100% upside down thought. Of
Richard: course. How could the truth torment us, right? It only torments us because we want to be free to do the wrong thing. And the truth is tormenting to this desire to do the wrong thing, which
Cláudia: is a demonic idea. Exactly. Exactly. And seeing the consequences of what we do, the terrible consequences, it takes away the pleasure in doing evil.
Right. So many times it just…
Richard: This is why Malachi Martin said there was such an attack against the virtue and ethics of the church, of religion, of Christianity. There was an attack against the values of the church. Not against the church per se, it's an attack against the church, but the real attack is against the virtue, because the virtue makes it more difficult to do whatever crazy thing you want to do, to make money at whatever cost.
So there's an attack against that. Boy, that's powerful. That's why the second point in your principles of exorcism through consciousness is only through becoming conscious of our inverted will and pathology or sins will the human being succeed in freeing himself or herself from the influence of demons.
Cláudia: You know something very practical. When you commit a sin, you have a voice behind you, blaming you, accusing you, blaming you, accusing you.
This is not God's voice. This is devil's voice. Everybody thinks it's God's voice, but it's not. It's devil's voice. So the moment we admit, like we confess to ourselves, to God, we are wrong and feel the feelings of guilt. We get rid of this voice, it neutralizes this voice, this voice can't do anything. I've often thought of that in terms of people
Richard: commit suicide because of this, sure they do.
I've often thought about this when I've watched movies about exorcism, you know, the person who's being exorcised, the demons inside speak to the priest accusing him of his
Cesar: sins. And
I've always thought well of course the priest is vulnerable, if he doesn't admit his sins he
Cláudia: will be totally devastated. Oh my God, don't speak that, I
Richard: don't want to hear, I don't want to hear.
But in fact, if the priest, or the human being in our case, were honest and humble, the demon could say, Richard, you're a liar, you're unethical. Yeah, I know that,
Cláudia: that's totally true.
Richard: And what?
Cláudia: And who you are? And you? And you then? You would
Richard: say, okay, I admit, but you, what do you think about yourself? And,
Cláudia: you know, it's such a relief when we admit our feelings of guilt.
And this is not something only because of religion. No, no, no, it's not learned. It's in our structure. It's in our essence. We cannot live an existence against our essence. And our essence is all towards truth, beauty, and goodness. Even ourselves. A person, like a doctor, knows that all instincts, all cells, behavior, are all towards life and goodness and love and even animals show this.
Animals show
Richard: this. Here's the hope behind this then, Cláudia, that if we see our problem, we are returning closer to the original state. This is the hope that we have.
Cláudia: That's the value. We purify our essence. We purify our essence and we get happier, healthier. We see so many diseases being healed through this process. So many diseases being healed
Richard: through this process.
Cláudia: I've always liked movies about redemption.
Richard: I think this is why, because somehow the redemption comes through the acknowledgement of the... There's a scene from Les Miserables, Victor Hugo, where the priest says to Jean Valjean that there's more joy in heaven over the face of a repentant sinner than the white-robed, just men. Exactly.
Cláudia: It's so... Very ironic.
Richard: Seems counterintuitive, doesn't it? That acknowledging errors and problems can be alleviating for us.
But we only have to remember how we felt at those times when we really felt remorse for something we did wrong. Remember the weight lifted off us? That's the process of repentance Cláudia was talking about. That way transcends religion. And it's something the worst beings in the universe refuse to do. I guess we could say we act like them when we refuse to admit what we've done wrong.
That's our program for this time.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Stop Radio Network. Talk to you next time. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and welcome to the Stop Radio Network. We broadcast from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. And our programs, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head and Healing Through Consciousness, offer the most relevant conversations around about the state of our world and what we can do to make it better.
Cláudia: I remember the book Glorification that Dr. Keppe wrote. I was with him many of the nights or days where he got those inspirations from God, and it was a necessity for him to write what he received. So the book was totally written under inspiration. But it's not only a theological book. It's mostly a scientific book. Very therapeutic book.
Very beautiful, by the way. And he used to wake up during the night, two, three in the morning, and he said, let's go to the top of the mountain. And we were watching the sky in this dark night with no interference, so you could transcend the sky and see heaven through it. Oh, my God. You could adapt the writings that he did with the music of Beethoven, And this would be a trilogy of his writings and the music.
And
Richard: Norberto Keppe's Glorification.
