Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. A belief in immaculate conception. Overcoming death with resurrection. Divine miracles of creation. Modern thinkers complain these tenets suffer from a lack of evidence. Faith is a great evil, they say, that leads gullible human beings to open their minds so much their brains fall out. I respectfully disagree. Faith has been shown in studies to mitigate symptoms of depression.
Spiritual beliefs can help us to deal with loss, disease, and death, and even aid recovery. We also know that it helps deal with addictions. Great things have been accomplished with perseverance in the face of impossible odds, even at the risk of loss of life. And what is that if not an act of faith? So dismissing conviction in something divine simply because there's no scientific proof seems unintelligent to me.
And anyway, if we just look around us at the intricate design of nature, the complex way natural processes mesh together perfectly. We really have to be slightly moronic to rule out divinity. The Certainty of the Divine. Today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Our radio program is streaming on the STOP radio network, which gets its name from the STOP the Destruction of the World Association founded in Paris in 1992 by Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, who is well known to any who listen to our programs.
The STOP organization is interesting because it has the purpose of trying to increase consciousness on the planet of the causes of our destruction of nature and our own human species. And those causes lie deeper than the usually fingered suspects of government corruption, corporate malfeasance, capitalist greed. The Stop Association redirects some of those pointed fingers back inside at the psychological state of the human being.
Our psychopathology, full of unresolved issues like megalomania, inverted values, headstrong inverted willfulness, envy, selfishness, and narcissism, leads us to create inhuman economies, inadequate education systems, and profits above all media that make our lives a hell on earth, literally. As my mentor Norberto Keppe writes in his seminal book about the pathology of power, Liberation of the People, is there hunger in the world?
Are there abandoned children? Is there injustice, aggression, robbery? Then every one of us is guilty, because we've helped to build and preserve a society that is inhuman. That is a point well taken, and all of this consciousness is what underpins our work on this program. But as we've been exploring in our last couple of programs, Keppe is broadening the perspective now to include the spiritual aspect of our problem.
Well, he's always done that, actually. He's just putting more focus on it at the moment. So now we're considering psychosocial spiritual pathology in seeking to understand ourselves and our human predicament. We are all to blame, he now asserts, because we admire the devil and permit him to act at will. No doubt that will be tough to swallow to those modern thinkers I alluded to at the beginning of the program, but honestly it explains so much.
There is a mostly unconscious collusion with evil going on that is not being noticed. We can see it in an economic system that measures development indexes by an increase in destructive technologies, a medical system that thrusts lucrative drugs and surgery into us as the sole option, a scientific worldview that considers only what we can measure through instruments as worthy of being called reality.
Perhaps this demonic influence is well illustrated in the recent news about the modern scientific hero Einstein, whose letter, written to philosopher Erich Gutkind in the 1930s, was just auctioned off for about three million dollars. That letter declared Einstein's view about all things religious as primitive superstition. Belief in the word of God as an example of human weakness. And this limited view is evident everywhere in modern physics, ignorantly following the inspiration and mentality of Lucifer.
Yes, the real Lucifer. Well, this is what Keppe is exploring in his work, and what we're developing in our current series of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head programs. So let's get into it a bit more. The certainty of the divine today when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns in just a moment.
Susan Berkley: We can tell how unbalanced a person is by how much they idealize.
Norberto Keppe.
Disinverting the human being and society.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: In the United States, there is a hidden government.
Richard: In 1985, Norberto Keppe published an explosive analysis of the pathology of power.
Cláudia: The New World Order that they are trying to implant goes totally against ethical principles.
Richard: 28 years later, Liberation of the People is still the most relevant book available that exposes our inverted socioeconomic structure and who's responsible for it.
Cláudia: They are like sharks and you are like fishes in an ocean.
Richard: The people's reaction to Keppe's book was enthusiastic. The powerful hated it.
Cláudia: They were able to do a master cover-up.
Richard: Norberto Keppe's book was buried, and the warning went out to the media.
Cláudia: You are never, ever to mention the work of Norberto Keppe.
Richard: Now, Norberto Keppe's timely book is available again. For your free download of Norberto Keppe's Liberation of the People, go to liberationofthepeople.org.
Hi, my name is Thorne, and I love listening to the Stop Radio Network. It helps me to start off my day in a really good mode.
Richard: The most relevant conversations in the world today are on the Stop Radio Network. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network, we're deep into our very interesting series now with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco on Dr.
Keppe's revolutionary, and I want to call it that, book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism. I choose that word specifically because his work in this book is maybe for the first time, certainly in my lifetime, awakening the conversation about the spiritual influence in our day-to-day lives. I never thought about that when I was growing up. It was not part of my education. And so here is this book making us forcing us to consider this so we've been we've done a couple of programs now we're in our into our third program on this subject and going very slowly through the principles of Dr.
Keppe's idea of exorcism through consciousness much different from what we see in the movies. But Cláudia, I had a very interesting question from one of my students when I was talking about this the other day. She said, but Richard, how can you explain Dr. Keppe's concepts to someone who doesn't believe in God? And this may be something that's relevant for many people who are listening, who may not, who may be skeptical, cynical about this, maybe have a confused view of religion and God, these kind of things.
So I thought that would be a nice question to put to
Cláudia: you. I explained
Richard: to her that if somebody lives their life ethically, tries to be good, then they're living their life based on some belief, belief in something, belief in goodness. So that could be actually more indicative of someone who believes in God than someone who says they believe in God, goes to church every day and is not honest or something.
Cláudia: A person who does not believe in God is already like a manifestation or a proof of what we are saying we are speaking here. It's a total demonic action because it's impossible not to believe in God. We are in God. Creation is totally immersed in God's energy, is God's energy, the result of God's energy. So the presence of God in our lives is blatant.
It's so obvious, like notions of good and evil are so obvious that if a person says he denies the knowledge of the existence of God, it's not that he does not know about God, but he knows and denies it. So this is a first or a very important manifestation of a possession or a kind of obsession in human mind, in the human mind.
Richard: Yeah, you need a big effort to deny what
Cláudia: is so obvious. So it's not a matter of wanting to believe or not, but it's a matter of why some so-called atheists are denying the existence of God. And this is the basis of God's discovery. Discoveries. When he started to build his own method and theory.
Richard: Dr. Keppe's discoveries.
Cláudia: You said God's discoveries. Oh my God.
Oh my God.
Richard: That's okay.
Cláudia: Well, we can say that these discoveries, the psychoanalytical discoveries that Keppe brought, it's a manifestation of God in science. It's God's manifestation, so it's a kind of God's discovery, or discovering God,
Richard: I don't know. Revelation. Revelation,
Cláudia: yes. But when Keppe started to build his own theory and method, what did he discover? That the basis of all illnesses was what he called theomania.
And at that time, he did not yet arrive to this scientific view on demonology. But he already saw through psychiatry, psychoanalysis, that the sickest person is so arrogant, so delirious in being the owner of the truth, the creator of his own reality, that it was like beyond any reasonable idea or attitude. Self-confidence or something, way
Richard: beyond that. It's way beyond
Cláudia: this selfishness or self-confidence.
Richard: Yes, this overly self-confident, right?
Cláudia: Which is taking over humanity, mostly in the 20th century and on, this is a manifestation of mental sickness.
Richard: Dr. Keppe said recently that too much belief in yourself is a form of
Cláudia: possession. Lately he is speaking about that. 30 years ago, 40 years ago, he would say, believing too much in oneself or being too much self-assured. It's a form of mental sickness, you know?
And it is, it is. So he does not differ between mental sickness and possession. For him now, it's the same, all the same. There is no difference. So speaking about demonology to people who do not believe in God, So this is an obstacle, because if they are denying the obvious, it's already a demonic attitude.
Richard: I've tried to understand what this is, because I come from a country that I think has a lot of resistance to this idea of sort of an all-knowing, all-seeing God.
And one of the arguments I found, somebody was arguing about why he didn't believe in God was, he said, I don't like being watched all the time. And I thought, he didn't say it in that way. I'm making it kind of a joke. It was a sort of rational observation. But I thought, well, there it is. We don't want to be forced to do what's good.
So if we want to not believe in God, it's because we want the freedom to do whatever we want. But
Cláudia: here,
Richard: Richard. It's ridiculous, isn't it?
Cláudia: Here, we have another aspect, another
Richard: perspective. And
Cláudia: this is very beautiful when we work with integral psychoanalysis, Kapian analysis. Because when a person comes with an idea like this, let's take these two examples. First, the first example, and then the second example.
Remind me, please.
Richard: The first, how
Cláudia: can I speak about the devil to people who don't accept God or are
Richard: atheists? These concepts to people who don't believe in God,
Cláudia: yes. So let's start then talking. To this person, we would not talk through a dogmatic point of view or theoretical point of view. We would go from under induction, an induction method.
Richard: An inductive method.
Cláudia: Inductive method. So we would ask her, what do you associate God with? What do you think she would say?
Richard: She would say everything all-knowing, all-powerful, the right way.
Cláudia: A force.
Richard: A force, maybe, yes. Universal force. You
Cláudia: might say a being or certainly a consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. So you are saying that you do not believe in the force and the power and the reality of everything that is good, beautiful, and truthful.
So you deny the reality of goodness, beauty, and truth. Which is psychotic, too. Which is psychotic. So how can you live without believing in truth, goodness, and beauty? You don't
Richard: live without
Cláudia: this belief, this faith. In everyday life, we need the faith to believe in practical good things, like breathing a good air, like drinking a good water, like walking to your office to work.
This is something that you can trust or it's valid. It's a good in your life.
Richard: The piano's not going to fall out of the sky.
Cláudia: Yeah, so the sun will rise today and tomorrow and the day after, and you go down, and the night will come, and I will sleep. All this real, the reality, good, beautiful, and truthful, the divine creation, it's so obvious that we do not create anything.
Human beings do not create anything. We just mimic God sometimes but we did not create. We don't have this power. So we go like through another path. We go directly to the inner life of that subject or that individual.
Richard: And
Cláudia: therefore what do you associate the devil with? Give spontaneous thoughts. The person would never say total goodness, beauty and
Richard: truth. Of course what a devil symbolizes.
Yeah evil, suffering,
Cláudia: opposite of everything, death, pain, suffering. So torture, you know,
Richard: it's all horrible
Cláudia: things. So denying the existence of the devil is denying the existence of these aspects in life and within us too, that we can be evil many times and we are evil many
Richard: times. Yeah, I mean, nobody starts a relationship with the idea that the person is going to betray them or tell a lie.
Cláudia: Sure. Everybody. You need to have like to be...
Richard: Faith somehow.
Cláudia: Yeah, to trust. Yeah. Trust is the basis of life. Yes. Trust in loyalty. So this is... Injustice, loyalty.
Richard: It's a beautiful answer. And then the second... No, the second. The
Cláudia: second one. I don't like somebody watching me all the time. He referred to it as
Richard: a big watcher and that he's a dictator that you can never vote him out of power.
Cláudia: Yes. So he's totally right. But the only thing is that he's inverted. He's seeing in God the devil and in the devil God. So who's the watcher? Who is commanding his life all the time? So he is saying something that he feels uncomfortable. And it's true. But he allows this to happen all the time. Blaming God. So this is a very practical example of inversion.
Seeing, I think this is the biggest inversion of all, seeing in God the devil's qualities. And in the
devil God's qualities, right?
Cláudia: Yeah so total
freedom
Susan: and
Cláudia: well-being, you know, and god restrictive. Yeah imagine god is totally mercy. It's he leaves us like he let us to be totally free. He just let us free. He never like interferes like prohibiting us to do anything.
He let us even be evil. He even allows us to be evil. It's our in our disfavor but he let us free. He wants all good to us
Richard: but if we
Cláudia: want to say no to him he will accept. But the devil, he doesn't. He is a dictator. He is after you all the time watching you, ready to take you over accusing, blaming persecuting and all this watcher attitude that people see in God.
It's not God.
Richard: It's so great. You just explained it so well. It's lovely.
Cláudia: So in science, we need
Richard: to have
Cláudia: an inductive method using the deductive theory
Richard: and
Cláudia: principles. We'll
take a little break here and we'll come back. I want to move into the second part of now. Your principles of exorcism through consciousness. We're with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
We're back in just a moment.
Richard: In 2004, in a small countryside village in Brazil, the STOP the Destruction of the World Association initiated a remarkable project.
Cláudia: Kambukira is the place we choose to organize our living experiences in Analytical Trilogy.
The
Richard: human being and society are dependent on one another. It does no good to try to correct the individual while allowing the social sphere to remain the same.
Cláudia: Like a new model of socio-economic, artistic, educational, spiritual living.
Richard: Our Campo Kira project is a model of a society that nurtures the human spirit.
Cláudia: It's a small place. It's not far from São Paulo. We travel through very beautiful mountains.
And there we have our hotel, the largest hotel in this town.
Richard: Welcome to the Grand Trilogy Hotel.
Cláudia: When they go there, they have natural organic food, natural organic milk, natural organic cheese and products, Very good meat, but we also have possibilities for the vegetarians. And there we have our hotel where we apply the concepts of this new world, this new society, a better life to live.
Richard: Classes, businesses, social projects, a better society brought to life.
Cláudia: We have conference rooms, we have a theater, we have musical presentations, We have artists from Brazil and from all over the world coming there.
Richard: Analytical Trilogy has proposals to transform all areas of human activity, leading to the society of the future.
Cláudia: There we will have people immersed, participating and living in a society where the pathology of power is controlled.
Because the pathology of power is more than ever impeding people to survive.
Richard: Sociotherapy, using the world's most advanced science. The
Cláudia: solutions will never come from the powerful. They are coming from the people, from those who are more capable, like artists, like scientists, like educators. So that's what we are doing here, creating mechanisms to live a happier life.
Norberto Keppe, and there are many exciting applications of his work occurring in Brazil and numerous other locations around the world. This includes language classes, translation services, psychology sessions by phone or Skype, and the new energy solutions proposed by the Keppe Motor.
Now back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network. The
Richard: program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're on the Stop Radio Network. This is the third in our series now. I don't know how many we're going to do, but I'm hoping Cláudia will have the energy to continue for a while because it's really great to be in our studio again working.
I enjoy a lot to produce our programs.
Cláudia: It's great to meet you,
Richard: Richard. Well, if it's good for you, then I'm very happy about that. And we have been trying to get a handle on a couple of principle ideas before we go too far into the principles of Keppe's exorcism. The first one, I think, is that Keppe says that man's first mistake comes when he denies that the planet is dominated by demons.
Not by God, but by demons. And we talked a little bit about that at the end of the last program. Cláudia, you mentioned about
Cláudia: it. Maybe we should go back a little bit
Richard: more. Yeah, I think so too. You mentioned that what does it mean to follow demons? You were talking about that, and it's like nobody is consciously going to say, yeah, I believe in murder and torture
Cláudia: and bullying.
Nobody believes
Richard: that consciously. So somehow this sort of…
Cláudia: During the timeline, this major issue was being covered up. We should uncover now this major subject because it has been causing such a disaster in the whole humanity and the planet.
Richard: The fact that demons are operating and we don't see it. Yes. This has
Cláudia: been covered up. Covered up. Even by the church. Even by the church.
They used to call this as just a symbol. It's inside man. So we lose a lot of strength and protection and defenses we could have if we don't see the danger of the enemy wanting to come in, like to dominate our lives and dominate society in such a way, Richard, that yesterday I have a client. She's a very nice woman, and lately she retired to be able to help drug addicts.
Valuable work. Valuable work. But philosophically and somehow theologically, she doesn't have sufficient structure and notion of these principles.
Richard: So she has a good heart, but she doesn't
Cláudia: have the… Yes, but she gets involved because she doesn't… She let herself go by these demonic concepts. And she was saying yesterday that she saw two situations in this shelter that she went to help.
Richard: For drug addicts,
Cláudia: alcoholics.
One was a teenager and another one was a lady, a middle-aged lady. Both of them were in a very sad situation, critical situation. The first one, she said, I really understood the influence of the devil in that girl because her eyes were so evil and so filled with hatred that it was impossible not to say that this is a demonic person with so much hatred.
But the lady, she said, she had such a good look in her eyes and she has so much goodness, but she was like caught. In this addiction, substance abuse.
Richard: A victim somehow.
Cláudia: Yes. And she said, so how come then? How do you explain this? Should I say that this person is possessed, is demonized, that we should blame her? She has so much goodness in her eyes.
And I was kind of explaining to her, because she was trying to bring an idea, How come God allows this to happen?
Richard: How come
Cláudia: God led a good person to suffer like this? And this is very tricky, very malicious, because people blame God for all the wrong choices humanity has been making, and not the devil. So she blamed God and not the devil.
God gave and gives us all conditions and all good to us. But we have been choosing the devil to govern our paradise. So I told her, you know, when you elect a dictator, it's elected by the people. We had the problem in Brazil of a very, very negative government. It was elected by the people, democracy.
Richard: A large proportion of the people.
Cláudia: Large portion of the people.
So, the people who did not want this president or this government had to suffer under his domain.
Richard: His
Cláudia: unheard domain. Yeah. Because of the choice the majority did. So, we could compare something like this on the planet. God built a paradise. We were in a paradise. We are in a paradise. But the majority is still voting or choosing demons and Lucifer to be the government.
Richard: Okay, so how do we do that?
Cláudia: And do you see how people can suffer in a wrong government? Oh, boy. All the injustice, all of this evil going around society.
Richard: Corruption everywhere.
Cláudia: It's not, if a person is good, but he or she had to submit herself to suffering. Economic suffering. And then the lady said, oh, yes. So, and there is another thing, because she was so good in her look, in her goodness, that even though she was poor, she was trying to get away this addiction, to get rid of the addiction.
But she looked well somehow spiritually she was okay. So she was so good that she felt good. She didn't have this revolt this anger the suffering of the this adolescent the first case. And then she came and said yeah now i recognize that i have so much good in my life. I I have all material things, I have culture, I had the opportunity to, I have everything a person could have, and I don't have this well-being that this lady has, even in her circumstances.
So you see that you go beyond material restrictions and you enter a realm of goodness, beauty and truth, which is in our inner lives, which is transcendental, which is spiritual and dictates if we are happy or unhappy.
Richard: Was she saying then that this older woman who has a problem with drug abuse is actually…
Cláudia: Good in her heart.
Richard: Good in her heart.
Cláudia: Good in her heart.
And she was
Richard: like a victim.
Cláudia: She was caught by this and she's trying to get rid of this. But she has such a good heart that she can be like good and feel like goodness and be, if you can say, good, feel good inside her problems. Even though she has her problems. So she's in a better situation, we may say. We will not say that she deserves what she has.
She doesn't. But we are, unfortunately, like in a planet that the majority is choosing this government, which is evil government, which is the devil. And the devil governs through presidents and governments and powerful people and wrong laws and legislators. Economy. Education. Everything. He is the ruler. He's the ruler because people are choosing. So what cap is bringing? Come on, people. Wake up.
We are choosing.
Richard: If we were not choosing this evil, the evil would not be able to do what it's doing. Could we talk about how we make those choices? Because that's not something that we're sort of sitting down and making a pact, a blood pact with Lucifer. We're making those decisions in a very subtle way, right? Even if you look at our economy, the economic system is based, any kind of growth is based on environmental destruction.
Anything that leads to growth leads to destruction. So, in some way, I see that in that sort of social sense that we are choosing technology that's destructive. We're choosing…
Cláudia: But you are not choosing, Richard. Yeah. You. Can you have a choice between a
Richard: cell phone that destroys your brain
Cláudia: and a good technology? Can
Richard: you do this? No.
Cláudia: We cannot. You can't
Richard: live with it.
We're caught. It's a crazy cell
Cláudia: phone. We should change all the perception because people, they choose, they don't have choices in many instances. We cannot be without using a cell phone presently. And it destroys our brain. This is scientific. So consciousness must come to – must grow in society that we should very, very like quickly – this is an urgent call. We should stop letting the powerful institutions, the powerful people like upside down people, evil people destroying the planet.
So we know that toxics applied in food,
Richard: like
Cláudia: pesticides, chemical fertilizers, are poison. They poison. They go to the water. But how can we
Richard: cope with this? Because if you go to a
Cláudia: supermarket, the majority of goods you can buy are all poisoned. And you drink and you eat poison.
Richard: Hormones in the meat.
Cláudia: Hormones. So the people in power, they are consciously doing this for profit.
So they are not mistaken. The big mistake they do is that one day or another, they will pay for what they are doing. If they are not already paying. Because they are going against their own essence. We have a divine essence. We have a good, beautiful and truthful structure. If we work against this good essence, we are destroying and killing ourselves little by little.
Richard: This is the demons in action.
Cláudia: These are the demons in action because they use people in power and they deceive. You know this
Richard: Faust story? Faust,
Cláudia: sure.
Richard: Goethe's story of Faust. He made the
Cláudia: bargain, Faustian bargain. This is true because, you know, people do this choice, but they don't know what they are like. They are not conscious of the spiritual implication. Their consciousness is like… Clouded?
Clouded. Yeah. It's diminished. Yeah. It's covered up. It's like a hypnotic
Richard: state. This, Dr. Keppe talks about this. He said this happens, this domination by demons happens with the approval of human beings, of course, who have chosen Lucifer and thus abandoned divine paternity is how he describes it. But I was thinking of it like you're talking about it now as we're sort of like in a way sort of victimized by this.
It's not like so obvious. We're clouded. There was a young woman singer, Cláudia, who was a really talented young singer. I don't want to mention her name, but she said that when she wanted to be famous, she made a pact with the devil. She was a religious person. She had a religious background, and she said this in a joking way, but it's like that.
It's like, okay, well, then this is what I have to do to be successful in this earthly way, to have money and power and prestige. So I'll start to exploit my body, and I'll start to do that to become famous. This
Cláudia: is a Faustian deal. So she's inverted.
Richard: She's upside down
Cláudia: because she's seeing all the good that she can possibly have coming from the devil.
And the devil is a usurper.
Richard: Usurper.
Cláudia: Usurper from the goods of God. Everything she has of good came from God and comes from God. It's not the devil who's giving to her. And you know what? The the big mistake as Keppe puts he people generally think as lucifer being intelligent clever powerful capable even beautiful or attractive or magnetic but it's everything the opposite.
He is a mentally sick angel. He's a liar and and if we could see him really in front of us, we would be scared of death. I
Richard: was just watching an old TV program that you and Dr. Keppe produced where you guys asked me to speak about me and other people, about our view of religion. You know what I was talking about?
I'd forgotten about this many years ago, seven, sixteen years ago. I remembered Jesus' example, because Jesus showed us. He was tempted. Yeah. And Lucifer said to him, all this could be yours. Ridiculous.
Cláudia: Remember that? It's already his. It
Richard: was Jesus. And Jesus said, this is not yours.
Cláudia: We
Richard: need to remember that
Cláudia: example. Yes, yes. When
Richard: we're like tempted by these.
Cláudia: Yes. And what happens then?
The person starts getting away from God's energy. And all these gifts that God can give to us, we get apart from them we get apart from them. So it's not the chastisement it's getting away from goodness. And
Richard: you said we lose our intelligence when that happens so we lose our perception.
Cláudia: Yes, we get like dumb
Richard: dumb,
Cláudia: numbed. Yes, this is the good
Richard: expression and anesthetized we don't see
Cláudia: anymore.
Anesthetized may
Richard: be a polite way of saying stupid, right? We become rather mediocre or even pathetic when we follow these demonic temptations. As Keppe says in his wonderful book we're discussing now, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, those who obey demons lose their feelings of love and intelligence and even their being. Because how can we really exist if we follow the one who denies existence?
That is one of the central points in Keppe's recent work. That's our program for this time. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head streaming on the stop radio network i'm Richard Lloyd Jones until next
Susan: time we think consciousness the perception of problems is dangerous Norberto Keppe. Disinverting the
Human Being and Society.
Cláudia: Since the beginning of all civilizations, they had always manifested an enormous interest and knowledge about the spiritual life and spiritual beings.
Richard: It's a world of ancient wisdom that modern science has eliminated. The
arising philosophy of positivism preferred to base science on material happenings.
Cláudia: So, only what you can see and touch and feel is real.
Richard: Now, spirituality is being put back into science.
Cláudia: Imagine what would happen if people start considering this as a real thing. Not only as a religious thing, but also a real scientific thing.
Imagine what would happen.
