Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. The nature of good and evil. That's a nice light topic for your next Sunday afternoon barbecue. Boy, if I had a dollar for every time a friend wanted to discuss the nature of good and evil with me over the years, I'd have a cool three bucks in my bank account. Not a topic that comes up often.
We've been considered victims of evil for much of our history. From the biblical Job, to history's billions of casualties of some malfeasance or other, to the Vatican, exorcists trying to free the soul of one invaded by demons, we've all had to suck it up in the face of circumstances we feel no control over. A remarkable Brazilian philosopher, however, is trying to deepen our understanding of this.
Norberto Keppe has proposed that evil exists, yes, but not as a natural occurrence, rather as a choice, an unconscious one to be sure, and influenced by spiritual forces you have almost no knowledge of. I know, it still sounds like we're victims, doesn't it? Well, let's talk. Human resonance with evil. Today, I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Our Stop Radio Network has been listened to in over 100 countries around the world, which is gratifying.
The science of Analytical Trilogy deserves to be studied and understood because it has relevance for everyone, no matter the culture. So do please pass it along to your network.
You can also subscribe to our podcast, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, available wherever fine podcasts are found. And the blog is somebodyelseshead.wordpress.com. I would like to also continue my giveaway this week.
We're offering free downloads of Dr. Keppe's latest book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, a seminal exploration of the link between spiritual possession and mental disturbances. Our current series, the one we're involved in right now, I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, is based on this incredible book.
Well, we've done a couple of shows over the years about the nature of good and evil, and this is a tricky thing.
We, particularly in the English speaking world, it seems to me, do not have that much ability sometimes to abstract, it seems. Combination of our materialism and our practical nature, perhaps, make it difficult for us to capture less concrete ideas. And maybe our hyper litigious society makes it necessary to spell everything out so there's no chance for confusion and the ensuing lawsuit. Careful, the hot apple pie is hot, if you know what I mean.
I was on the shuttle train between terminals at Dallas-Fort Worth Airport a few years ago and was impressed with the quantity of instruction messages. Hold on to the handrails. Stand back. The doors are closing now. The train will begin moving now. We're stopping now, as if we're totally incapable of figuring anything out for ourselves. Stand here, pay now, the bathrooms with picture instructions about how to wash your hands.
So when we say in Keppe's metaphysics that evil has no existence by itself, that it wouldn't exist if we didn't support it, we look around and see evil in practice everywhere we turn and have difficulties understanding how it doesn't really exist on its own. This is an abstraction that's tough to chew over. It's here. What do you mean it doesn't exist? So this distinction Keppe makes in his metaphysics about the essence of every natural thing being good, and that if we have something evil, this represents the corruption of the originally good thing.
This is a subtle point, but it's essential to our understanding of the nature of reality. So let's wade into those intriguing waters today. Human resonance with evil, our second in our series on psychotherapy and exorcism, continues in just a moment when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns on the Stop Radio Network.
Kai's greatest problem is thinking that what we don't see won't hurt us, nor Bertolt Cappi.
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Richard: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and welcome back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, the second in our series based on Norberto Keppe's latest book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, the book that explores the real dire situation of our human experience, which is influenced so much by nefarious evil spirits that Keppe asserts the whole planet needs an exorcism.
I'm talking once again with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, Vice President of Keppe's International Society of Analytical Trilogy and Director of the Theology Department of the Keppe and Pacheco Trilogical College. In our last program, Cláudia, you talked about how there's no suffering that comes from God. Let me just put us back into where we were then. So if there's evil, it can't come from that source.
If we have problems on the planet, it's not coming from the creation, the way things were created. In order to understand this, you have to have a theological vision that includes God, of course. That all forces from nature are good. All are to propagate life, to continue life, to preserve and propagate life. So this evil then, you said, comes from the transcendental, non-physical, invisible, not perceived by our senses, spiritual beings.
That's where we left off last time.
Cláudia: Yeah, and I think it's very, very important that we touch this subject because many people blame God. Yeah. But if he didn't create evil, why does he allow evil to exist?
Richard: That's the question people ask all the
Cláudia: time. So here we enter a field that is much bigger than our intellect. But you can, by intuition, grasp this metaphysical situation.
God could not create us like slaves. God, in his infinite love, could only create free human beings. His freedom, and freedom according to the real, the true metaphysics and Keppian metaphysics, is the freedom to be. And being is being beautiful, it's being good, it's being truthful. It's the truth, beauty, and goodness in itself.
Richard: Yeah, being is not this
Cláudia: mixture of being good sometimes and being bad other times.
In the origin, by creation, God created us totally free in what we could do and think infinitely in goodness, beauty, and truth. But he didn't want to create us like robots, good robots, or robots of goodness. So he wanted to create a being like the human being that would freely accept him or not. Therefore, metaphysically speaking, evil does not have an essence by itself.
It was not created by God. Evil is the denial, the rejection, misrepresentation, distortion, it's to say, No, I don't want to be good. I don't want to be. I do not accept being free to do and to live and to enjoy happiness and goodness and beauty. In fact,
Richard: I'm kind of irritated that I have to do good things. Why should I be a prisoner of having to be good?
Why can't I be? So
Cláudia: all evil, all illness, metaphysical and physical, immaterial and material, organic, in nature, in anything, it's an absence of goodness, it's an absence of health, it's a denial of energy, it's a blockage of energy. Shouldn't exist. So it's just a movement. Evil is an attitude. Evil does not have an essence. Evil is an attitude. And we can adopt this attitude because we were born free to accept him and to live in total wonder of the universe.
Or we can say no and stay like in absence, depriving ourselves from something. So evil is always a deprival. It's a slavery, we could say.
Richard: Yeah, and it makes sense, Cláudia, that we should be free to choose. Because this is the question that comes up, you know, if God wanted me to be good, why did he give me this decision, this opportunity to decide to be bad?
This is the question people ask all the time. But it makes sense that there's a choice. But
Cláudia: he didn't give this suggestion or this choice to say no.
Richard: But he respects our choice. He would prefer that we don't choose that, but of course.
Cláudia: And he advised.
Richard: And he advises us not to. He
Cláudia: advised. But love, Richard, needs acceptance.
Richard: Yeah. It's the same thing as a human being, you know.
If I force, I don't have children, but if I force my children to love me, this is not. This is not love. No, you want them
Cláudia: to choose to be with you, you know, to respect you. So this is the minimum thing from our part to, like, to correspond. Our part, the only thing we can do is accepting. So this acceptance is the way we can show love to God in retribution to all that we get from him.
So love needs two elements, two beings, two subjects, like two people, two beings. In order to love, you need two objects, at least one being and subject and an object.
Richard: Yeah, a giver and a receiver or an acceptor
Cláudia: in some way. Or resonant love. So it's a common, it's a resonant love to each other. So love needs this acceptance. From the other part.
Otherwise, it's just one-way love. It's not a fulfilled love. You cannot even enjoy the love you get, you receive.
Richard: So this is how we started with this idea. And then I was thinking that...
Cláudia: So how evil started then?
Richard: Yeah, where does...
Cláudia: All beings good. There was a big one. A mastermind, according to scriptures, according to revelation, there was a mastermind that didn't accept.
He wanted himself to be the God. But it's not, so as it is, you cannot be another God. It's impossible. So the only way, it's like to contradict, to oppose. He is the big opposer. And by opposing himself to God, he opposed himself to himself, to his essence.
Richard: You're talking about Lucifer now. Yes, I
Cláudia: am.
Richard: The mastermind. The
Cláudia: king of the hell.
Richard: Yeah it's like king of hell. If we look at this as a mythology it's kind of a nice story. But if you look at it as something real that there was a created being who was the greatest angel or whatever the story is in heaven saying well you know what this is very nice God but I really don't want to. I want to be you.
Or I don't
Cláudia: want to be you and I don't want to be anything that you created. I
Richard: don't accept anything. I don't want to follow your will. I want to be myself.
Cláudia: I will follow my will.
Richard: And his will is to say no because he has no other will other than denying.
Cláudia: You know Kant, this Immanuel Kant.
Richard: The German philosopher.
Cláudia: Yeah. He described freedom as the capacity to say no to what is.
So he understands that freedom, according to human understanding, and this angel's understanding, decayed angels, is the capacity to say no, to contradict. So I say no, no matter what. This is freedom for Kant and for many, many, many, many, many thinkers and people. Yeah. And not that freedom is the opportunity to be. Freedom to be. You cannot be free without being who you are.
And this is very tricky, very profound. Yes. But very revealing. Shakespeare
Richard: maybe was a little bit superficial to be or not to be, as if there was a choice for that, which is the choice you're talking about. But this is not any sense of freedom, is it? But let's talk about Lucifer then, because this is, Dr. Keppe has said in his work, oh, by the way, I was doing a little research on this, that there are 68% of Americans, sort of, around that, who say they believe in God today.
In Canada, it's about 65%, which is down quite a bit from about 15 years ago. But it's only about 30% in England today believe in God. Wow. 60% in France, and it's increasing among young people there at the moment. I was just doing a few countries, but I think Brazil is 90% or something. It's very high in Brazil, belief in God. But the belief in Satan is interesting because while people may believe in God, there are many people who do not believe in Lucifer, Satan.
It's pretty high in the United States. It's about 70%. And about 50% there believe in demonic possession. This is increasing a lot in the United States. But
Cláudia: how come? You said in the United States 70% doesn't do that? 68% believe
Richard: in God and 70% believe in Satan. So it's about the same. 70%
Cláudia: believe in Satan. Okay, in the United States.
Richard: In the United States.
Great.
Cláudia: This is important. This
Richard: is important. But other countries, European countries I'm thinking about now, it's not well accepted, this idea. In fact, I was reading an abstract from a new paper relatively recently, the last five years, from the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. And in this study, they suggest that belief in demons and evil spirits is harmful to your mental health.
This is the conclusion of this. So there's this big sort of movement in the world where the people are starting to understand that there are problems that come from spiritual entities. But the academic world, the official scientific world, is totally dismissive.
Cláudia: They don't consider that this rationalization. They are intellectuals. Intellectuals generally don't realize that there is a mechanism of defense, very, very sick, very, very harmful, which is this one, to rationalize things, to intellectualize things, not to go deep in the feelings and even less to the unconscious and to unconscious forces.
Richard: Or even the intuition, right?
Cláudia: Yeah, so this academic world who pays too much attention only to intellect, they tend to become very sick because of this mechanism of defense that Freud brought very clearly. And other psychoanalysts in the world, they know, we know, that a person who is too intellectual, he never does analysis. So
Richard: this story you're talking about from the biblical times, not from the biblical times, from the Bible of the fall of Lucifer, the expulsion from paradise or whatever the story is, is not a mythology.
It's a real energetic experience. It's really something that happened.
Cláudia: It's not only a mythological knowledge, right? It's not only a revelation. It's not only supernatural. It's natural. As well, at the same time, it's supernatural and natural, because it's energetic, because you can verify it. The inner self of the human being is a very important field of research and scientific research. It's not because our feelings and thoughts and beliefs and values are not tangible to the five senses that they are not real and they are not powerful.
And they are not an object of scientific research. They
Richard: are. And when you say natural, you don't mean like it should happen, but natural in the sense that it's concrete. Yeah. It happened. It's a concrete occurrence.
Cláudia: Yes. It belongs to nature.
Richard: To natural phenomena. Right.
Cláudia: Phenomena in nature.
Richard: So what happened? If we take this dialectical point you're making that evil doesn't exist by itself, Lucifer was created as the whole of the universe was created and then chose not to accept.
Cláudia: Yeah, and now he's stuck in his attitude because if he would not or if he would change his mind, something that seems too difficult for him to do, he would go back to his previous essence, you know? The difficulty is that he's in eternity and he seems to be very firm in his choice and his followers too. It's like a psychopath. Psychopaths are very possessed.
Very much like an example of possession because they go until the end of their lives saying I. If people ask them would you do the same would you be like killing people and chopping their bodies and you know torturing people would you do this again if you could and they would they find this. This is this is correct. This is their choice.
So lucifer is in this situation. He he has this permanent attitude you know. So crazy
Richard: isn't it.
Cláudia: Yeah but it's a permanent
Richard: attitude which creates hell to himself and to others. So let's look at this a bit more when we come back. We're on our radio program Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're back in just a moment with Cláudia Bernhardt
Susan: Pacheco international society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo brazil.
This is the stop radio
Richard: network. A key inversion in science. Always
Cesar Soós: we are trying to extract energy from a material element
Richard: and its negative consequences.
Cesar: We provoke serious imbalances in nature corrected
Richard: now with the Keppe motors disinversion of physics and
Cesar: we developed a way to have mechanical power with very little electricity. This will
Cláudia: make a big change not only in energetic efficiency but also it will bring better energy in homes because it's magnetic energy.
The
Richard: Keppe Motor, new technology for a new world. You're
Susan: listening to the Stop Radio Network from São Paulo, Brazil.
Norberto Keppe and there are many exciting applications of his work occurring in Brazil and numerous other locations around the world. This includes language classes, translation services, psychology sessions by phone or Skype, and the new energy solutions proposed by the Keppe Motor.
Now, back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Stop Radio Network.
Richard: We are back on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Richard Lloyd Jones here on the Stop Radio Network. Continuing our conversation about Norberto Keppe's new book, an important book, too, Psychotherapy and Exorcism with Dr.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. In Dr. Keppe's book, his new book, he's got two new books. And
Cláudia: he's writing the third about the
Richard: subject. You can't keep up with him. I mean, we just finished translating one of the second ones, right? So he wrote a book called Psychotherapy and Exorcism, which is being sent all over the world to theologians, rabbis, priests, intellectuals. Pastors. Pastors.
Researchers. Yeah, around the world, too.
Cláudia: And if you want to get yours for free, we have this project in our college, theological college. We can offer like in our site.
Richard: So if you're interested in this book, these
Cláudia: conversations we're having,
rich at richjonesvoice.com and I'll make sure you get a copy of that. In this first book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, he has a second book called Sociotherapy and Exorcism.
This first one, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, which we've just finished translating into English. He says, Man's first mistake
Richard: comes when he denies that the planet is dominated by demons. So let's maybe look at that, because when I read these studies of these academics saying that belief in demons and evil spirits is harmful to your health, I think there's the great reason that Lucifer can still continue to operate here is because we don't believe in him.
We don't believe in this idea of personified evil. We believe evil is just, oh, it's a random thing that happens. We don't have this idea of the spiritual influence in our physical world.
Cláudia: Yes, these beings are beings. They are intelligent. They have their, like, will. And, but they are upside down. They are upside down in their will. Their will, it's inverted.
Richard: Inverted, yes.
Cláudia: Inverted. And this inversion puts everything upside down. And everyone and humanity has been following his inspirations, and all of us live upside down, with upside-down values, inverted values, inverted feelings, inverted perceptions. We are really upside down. So we are not heading to fulfillment, to health and joy. We are heading to self-annihilation, self-destruction. And this is so clear in the planet. My God, everything, all the laws, the laws are all upside down.
Most of the laws are upside down. And our values are upside down and attitudes and rejections and, you know, perceptions.
Richard: Our destruction of nature. It's so clear, isn't it, that we have a real attitude against.
Cláudia: And something that we are doing now here, Richard, with our students, it's to orient them to research more about inversion, the psychosocial inversion applied in many, many, many fields.
Because this inversion you can see in communication, in media, in marketing, in economy, in concepts of
Richard: work. Even in religion, spirituality.
Cláudia: Religion, spirituality, psychology, health, medicine,
Richard: everything is upside down.
Cláudia: So I want to put this very much clear in practice and perceiving the relation between the source of inversion. There is this study about Lucifer and Satan, and they call him the inverted one, the upside down being.
Richard: Who does that?
Cláudia: There are many, many
Richard: researchers and theologians, and there is this
Cláudia: Satanic Bible created by Anton LaVey, the creator of Satanic Church. And the Satanic Bible, it's all the principles of God put upside down, inverted. So all the wishes that are upside down, they come from this inspiration, the source of this attitude. Let's call this guy like a maniac in his attitude eternal maniac.
And Keppe stresses this. He is the crazy angel.
Richard: The craziest one in the
Cláudia: universe. The psychotic psychopath because he could be intelligent and loving being but denying he made himself a sick angel. A psychotic angel. And human beings do this too, imitating, making Lucifer. We can come to this subject later in our interviews, comparing the attitudes of the psychotic and the psychopaths with evil and Lucifer.
Sure.
Richard: But what I wanted to come to was the first point you gave me for our program today, which is the principles of exorcism through consciousness, which is Dr. Keppe's work. And he talks about it as being an exorcism, that all the human beings and the planet need an exorcism in
Cláudia: this sense of understanding. A global world exorcism.
Richard: Yeah, to understand what it is that's going on so that we can begin to disinvert and come back to being true human beings.
You say that the major weapon against the demons is this consciousness of psychosocial spiritual inversion. Yes. That a human being can only be possessed or obsessed because of our psychosocial spiritual pathology. Meaning it's like an act of will. Yes.
Cláudia: We choose in some way. Yes. So let's start with that. Nobody would accept and admit that they are choosing Satan. Only those who go to satanic masses, but the majority, the vast majority of people will say, my God, I will never ever accept Lucifer.
I'm not a Lucifer's follower, but we are. And this is totally unconscious.
Richard: We are without perceiving it. Yes, that's
Cláudia: important. This is totally unconscious. And something that Keppe puts to the exorcists, which is very embarrassing for the exorcism itself, is that exorcists come to the exorcised and they treat the exorcised, the possessed, as a victim, 100% victim. And saying, go away, go away, leave alone this poor victim.
But they don't realize that there was a moment or many moments in the lives of the possessed that they opened the doors and they accepted Lucifer and the demons. And they even enjoyed demons' suggestions and influences. So when we speak about sin, for instance, we enter here in the field of pathology, as we name it. Sin and pathology for us is the same thing.
So there are many, many, many sins that human beings enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. They take a tremendous pleasure. They are not victims. They take pleasure, and they don't want to lose this pleasure. They don't want to be without this chance to have this pleasure. But they think it's harmless. But they think it's harmless. Or just harm a little bit,
Cesar: harming the health, and I'm going to die anyway.
Or there is not such a thing as hell and purgatory and heaven. This is just a metaphor. So they don't realize that pathology and sin are very dangerous. Because when we accept the suggestions, we are opening doors for demons to enter in our, like it's, we are like homes. They enter in our bodies, physical and psychological bodies, our beings. They are invaded, infested by these energies, which are not willing to go away because they suck our energy.
They need our energy.
Richard: They want to stay here in us. I had a friend who was dying of cancer, and I remember she was in the hospice. I remember saying to her, why don't you now, at the end of your life, stop smoking? And she said, oh, don't take away my pleasure. Yeah. It's
Cláudia: like this, in a sense, I see it. And smoking is a door, just a door, just a small door.
Smoking is just a small sign that demons dominated her. And most of the pleasures we take are not even from flesh, as they say. They see the flesh to be blamed. They see the body as sinful. Our bodies are victims from our psychological inversions. We destroy our bodies. Our bodies are natural. They are from God directly. But our minds are upside down and we hurt our bodies.
So before she started to smoke, there were many areas in her emotions, intentions, attitudes that were upside down, that were evil, were not good. Like we have so much, so many. Oh, my gosh. Envious thoughts. Yes. Being
Richard: lazy.
Cláudia: Being lazy, being egotistic, being self-centered, being gossiping, intriguing, enjoying the bed of others and the suffering of others. There is this pride which is so tremendous in us.
We are the owners of the truth. So we have so many areas that we synchronize with the demons, and by doing so, our energies get all distorted. And our energies getting distorted, our brain doesn't work anymore, our organs don't work anymore, our bloods are full of negative and distorted energies and blocking energies, blockage of energies. So in the mind of psychotic, full areas of the brain are totally energetically blocked.
So demons block our energy. Yeah,
Richard: now you're saying something that most people have never thought of before, that if I am lazy, I am in some way linking with a really bad spiritual energy. And
Cláudia: there is a being, there are
Richard: beings around us. This is a whole new idea, Cláudia. Well,
Cláudia: it's old, it's new and it's old.
Richard: It's very old. It's new to our modern world.
Cláudia: Yes, it's new to science if we say that. But it's true because we deal with sickness for Dr. Keppe for around 60 years and myself around 40 years. Seeing patients every day in hospitals and in our clinic, and we understand a lot about suffering and illness, mental, emotional, physical, and social illnesses. And we see, yes, there is, yes, a very truthful, real, tangible, you can observe.
Like it's comprovável, provable presence of these beings in our lives. Lucky those who see this. Lucky those who can hear them. Unlucky those who follow them without acknowledging unconsciously.
Richard: Yeah. There are sayings that we have that show this. You know, there's a saying in English, idle hands do the devil's work.
Cláudia: Yes, there is even an opera and a ballad, beautiful.
Richard: About this.
Yeah. So we understand somehow in our ancient wisdom, but this has been dismissed in our modern, so-called modern
Cláudia: world. And it became totally unconscious. Yes. When Freud spoke about unconscious and the unconscious leading us to negativity and to destruction, when Freud noticed this strange pulse towards death and sickness, he saw it in our instincts, in our nature.
Richard: As a natural part of the human being.
Cláudia: And not coming from the psyche, from the soul, from the mind, and then being unconscious. You can observe this in little babies as Melanie Klein did in her researches. She was a, oh my God, she was really a huge scientist. Brilliant. Melanie Klein, a psychoanalyst. And he got very near this concept and she even quoted Lucifer in her writings because she spoke about envy, she spoke about projective identification, which is this projecting the evil inside in other people that are good, for instance.
And she mentioned that babies are born with these tendencies. And this coincides with this concept of theology that we are born with a tendency to evil. We have a tendency. We are born in image of God, meaning we are born with everything beautiful, truth, and good in our structure, but we have this tendency, and it can be bigger or lesser depending on our choices, and this is a mystery.
This is a mystery. So
Richard: we are starting very slowly just to start to introduce the idea that these demons exist. But I think in our next program, we need to get into this.
Cláudia: And how can you observe
Richard: this in babies and little children? Well, babies, they start to cry. They bite their mother's breast. They get furious for no reason.
Cláudia: They cry with an anger that you think, how come such a small being, a little baby, can be so hateful, so hateful, and dominate a house, mom, dad, brother, sisters, with his anger.
Richard: Yeah, these temper tantrums that babies have
Cláudia: are really something. Yeah. And people say, oh, this is natural. They have colics. They are hungry. But it's the fury that comes within already. Yeah. The desire
Richard: to say no, to do what's wrong.
Cláudia: Yes. Like when a mother says, go to bed now. You are tired. Go to bed. You need to sleep. A scandal.
Richard: Eat your vegetables.
Cláudia: Yes, and you need to study. My
Richard: brother got a bigger piece of pie than
Cláudia: I did. Brush your teeth. Go to bath. You are smelling so bad now. Please go to bath. And they are really, really having pleasure to attack. Bullying, like bullying. Bullying is a total incredible example of being Luciferian. Yeah. Kids
Richard: refusing to do what they're supposed to do.
Cláudia: And they have the pleasure
Richard: to destroy their friends.
Kids love to be cruel.
Cláudia: Cruel. They're cruel.
Yeah.
Richard: And they can kill. Yes.
Cláudia: When I was in England working there, there was a belief at that time among many, many, many clients and people that boys at seven, age seven, were very demonic. And I thought, why not girls too? And why not other ages too? But it seems that boys at seven, they express this Luciferian attitude very openly.
And there was a time when brothers killed their siblings.
Richard: Yeah, younger siblings.
Cláudia: Yeah. And take pleasure. They take pleasure.
Richard: Well, we see this. We see this kind of being cruel to anybody who's a little bit different, anybody who dresses differently, who has
Cláudia: a different attitude about things. They're a little bit strange in one way. They are lacerated in the school system. So it's just an excuse of doing this.
Richard: Examples of the Luciferian influence on our planet, that's not the typical view, is it? We've become so dependent on our materialistic scientific view, I'll believe it when I see it, that we're totally dumb to the more subtle layers of influence. And in this case, ignorance is our great enemy because these spirits depend on working in the shadows. If you're blind to them, they have a field day.
Awareness is what we're trying to bring through this series of programs. That's our program for this time.
Talk to you next time.
Susan: The sickest people want others to be the way they idealize them. Norberto Cappi.
Disinverting the human being and society.
