Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We are assailed in our modern world with all sorts of problems. There are money worries, health of aging parents, stress and depression, crime and taxes. Coping with all of that can make us forget the beautiful things around us every day. But there's another influence no one talks about in our modern number-crunching world, and that is the very real influence from the spiritual world.
That's not the topic of dinner conversations these days. Well, actually, we don't even have conversations anymore, do we? Everything being pushed into the digital world of email, chat, and Instagram, which emphasizes the point. The deeper levels of the human experience are not being plumbed anymore, and to our great detriment. It's like spirituality is something we feel at times, something we sense is important, but something we keep at arm's length for fear of being branded weird or fanatic.
But spirits were not dismissed in the past. Shakespeare exploited the knowledge of them for great art. Let's explore spiritual relevance more on our program. Our entangled spiritual reality today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Just look for Stop Radio Network there.
Well, we're embarking on a series of programs here now on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, inspired by a couple of new books written by Dr. Norberto Keppe, our spiritual mentor on this program. You know, I've been studying and teaching Keppe's science of psychosociopathology, what he calls Analytical Trilogy, for about 17 years now. And I continue to be impressed with how a psychoanalyst can have such profound insights into every area of human endeavor.
Every teacher down here in Brazil has this experience. You're looking for material, say, on shyness for a lecture or class, and you do a little search through all of the Kepien material that we have down here, and you'll find reams of stuff, both from his 40 or so books and also from his hundreds of TV programs. You want to delve into relationships in a new and provocative way?
Hundreds of observations about the problems most commonly encountered and how to treat them, which, of course, you'd expect from a world-renowned psychoanalyst with more than 50 years of clinical experience. But unexpectedly, you uncover things about the metaphysical finality of relationships, the true purpose of being in a relationship. And this journey opens up vast avenues of consciousness that are always sharp, wise, and peerless.
His writings and broadcasts on health would fill a library. Keppe Science is a union of science with philosophy and theology, so it's more expansive and inclusive than most healing modalities. It doesn't push spirituality or philosophy of life out to the fringes. Keppe's always been attentive to the existential questions underlying the more prosaic everyday concerns that people bring to their therapy sessions. These deep spiritual concerns have been the subject of his most recent books, well, all of his books, actually, but especially his most recent ones, Psychotherapy and Exorcism and Sociotherapy and Exorcism, and it's from these seminal works that his principal assistant, Dr.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, and I draw our inspiration for this series of radio programs we're working on now. But first, I'd like to make an offer to you.
This new book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, we just finished translating that into English now, and I see it as a fundamental book to have here in 2019. We are, as human beings, and we always have been, engaged in a spiritual battle here on earth. The greatest saints and mystics have advised us about that, especially Jesus. His work was to free us from the demonic influence, actually.
So, with this in mind, I would like to make this new book, Dr. Kepley's new book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, available to you. For free. If you're interested in a copy of that book, just drop me an email, okay?
It's a riveting read, and I'm very happy to send it to you. Okay, so with no more further ado, let's dive into our entangled spiritual reality.
We'll do that when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns in just a moment.
So
Susan Berkley: you don't want to stop cutting
Richard: trees because... I make money. Uh-huh, but if we keep cutting them...
Well,
Richard: it affects
the weather a little. Ooh, a lot, actually. And it contributes to global warming. Well, that's kind of serious. And destroys the ecosystem. So what'd I get you to stop? Well, if they paid me the same money as stop cutting trees that I get for cutting them.
Well, that's an interesting way to look at it. If I don't cut the trees, someone else
Susan: will. Inversion. It's killing us. A message from the STOP the Destruction of the World Association. StopNA.org.
the Stop Radio Network, originating from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. Our programs are also affiliated with the STOP the Destruction of the World Association, bringing consciousness of the root causes of human problems since 1992.
Richard: We're back. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Stop Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and very pleased to have with me again Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. We are here in the library of the—we're not in our normal studio—in the library of the International Society of Analytical Trilogy, just underneath Cláudia's office. This library was one of the first places I came when I came to Brazil.
And it's full of books about psychoanalysis and psychosomatics and history and theology. It's like a very rich atmosphere. It's very deeply wood-paneled, very deep, dark, almost a mahogany-type wood that we're here in, with the glass doors behind which are all sorts of books. And there's a number of final projects of the of the students who have been doing the post-graduation courses in Analytical Trilogy.
Some of this information I'm giving you you won't have a contact with because you don't know so
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: much, but they can use their imagination.
They use their
Richard: imagination and you can also do a lot of research on our sites.
And Cláudia and I have been doing a number of programs on that radio station. If you listen to Stop Radio, you hear Cláudia Pacheco all the time, and we're talking about many of these themes.
Do you know we've had like, I think it's almost a million hits
Cláudia: on our
Richard: radio station. Wow.
Cláudia: It's good to know. A
Richard: lot of people in 192 countries have listened to our programs. Wow, good. It's quite impressive, actually, when you
Cláudia: start to see how Dr. Keppe's work of Analytical Trilogy is, and Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco's work in Analytical Trilogy, is really entering the world.
This is very beautiful. It encourages me.
Richard: Yeah, good. We need encouragement sometimes.
Cláudia: Yeah, we do. So we
Richard: have been talking, Cláudia and I, for a number of weeks about how to do a series of classes on this new book of Dr. Keppe, Psychotherapy and Exorcism. And this is a book I think that Dr. Keppe is personally very excited about because we've been sending it out to many theologians, priests. Psychiatrists. Psychologists,
Cláudia: psychologists, theological schools, rabbis,
Richard: paranormal, researchers.
For them to understand that this idea that exorcists and many theologians have, that possession, demonic influence, only happens once in a while in a few people, that this is not true, that actually we are all influenced. Spiritually all the time without perceiving it we don't have much contact with that. And what we're trying to do is the scientific analysis of spiritual phenomena, especially the question of mental illness and demonic possession.
So this is where we'll hope to get, but not to think of demonic possession as just the rare cases we see in the movies, but that it's a factor for all of us. So what we're hoping to do here is have a scientific analysis of spiritual phenomena, especially the question of mental illness and demonic possession, and remembering that demonic possession is not something that only happens in the movies, that this kind of diabolical influence is everywhere in our modern society.
So this is what we'll talk more
Cláudia: about. And this is totally a new approach, Richard. It's A totally new approach. Lately, the Pope Francis, Francisco, he has been talking and trying to introduce this concept inside the mind of the religious people, bishops, cardinals, mostly of the religious all over the world, don't speak about the devil any longer.
Father Amorth, who was one of the main or maybe the most famous exorcist, official exorcist of Rome, the Vatican, he was talking a lot about possessions. But even Father Amorth did a distinction between possession and mental illness, possession and social illness. So they didn't bring together this transdisciplinary science was absolutely built by Dr. Keppe because he has in his background both backgrounds, the theological and philosophical and scientific, the threefold background.
Richard: And the Catholic theology, I think, is the most advanced theology. Yes,
Cláudia: all the Catholics, Rome and even the Orthodox Catholics, they are very much deep
Richard: in what they... Sure, and even the original Protestants come from the Catholic Church too.
Cláudia: Yeah, the Christians, the Christians, they are
Richard: all very deep in their knowledge. So as you're watching, you'll have a chance to hear more about Dr.
Keppe's work. It's deep and it's really, really important on our planet today. Then sitting across the table from me is Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, who joined Keppe Society early on, 1974, working first as Keppe's assistant, but soon attending clients herself in Keppe's innovative psychotherapeutic treatment. So Keppe, in the pursuit of understanding the nature of human problems, started with the theological and realized that it was too limited for him, that he needed a more scientific approach, not just theological.
So he entered into the area of psychotherapy to try to treat clients individually and in group sessions in scientific ways, not just their theological questions, but their economic questions, relationship problems, health problems.
Cláudia: Psychosomatic problems, mental
Richard: illnesses. Especially a big focus of Dr.
Keppe's work. So we're dealing here with a lot of knowledge and a lot of wisdom from many, many, many years of experience. So he created his own interdisciplinary science he called Analytical Trilogy, which he named for the union of science with philosophy and theology. So this is now not something that's only theological, only philosophical, only scientific, but all three of those aspects together, which gives it a lot of ability, I think, capacity to understand the human problems and human issues.
Cláudia: This shift started in 77.
Richard: 77.
Cláudia: When he realized that he…
Richard: You were there at the beginnings of this, Cláudia.
Cláudia: Yes, I was. Put us
Richard: in that. You're a witness. Put us in
Cláudia: that place. I'm not only a witness, but I have been participating into this beautiful journey. Well, in 1977, he was researching and researching, always digging and digging, like an archaeologist of the mind.
And he discovered that it was like an inspiration that the human being didn't suffer from an unconscious, as Freud put as an instinctive or innate kind of unconscious life or unconscious source of pathologies and desires, but having like an instance called unconscious. But what mainly was like a cause or a manifestation of humans' pathology was what Dr. Keppe called inversion. "Human beings are upside down, perceiving, reacting, living upside down." So after this intuition, he told me, "Cláudia, now I must study even more and start all over from the beginning.
All the understanding of human soul must be reviewed, reanalyzed and corrected under this perspective." And that's how he started in 77. He was able, in the end of 79, to complete a new body of psychoanalysis theory, his own integral psychoanalysis that then he called Analytical Trilogy, because it encompassed also the fields of philosophy, metaphysics, and theology.
Richard: Yeah, it's a comprehensive work.
Cláudia: And you know who they call the inverted, the big inverted? Lucifer. Lucifer. He's upside down.
Richard: Yeah, so this idea of inversion we'll get into. We could do a whole course just on that concept alone. But the idea that we see the world upside down is so clear. One of my students was telling me he was just in New York and and Boston recently doing a little presentation there, and he was talking about the economy there.
They have so little unemployment now, such a low level of unemployment in the United States now, that they're having problems with the economy because they don't have people enough to do other work. You know, there's all the jobs are full, there's no. So he was telling me that they are talking in the economy in it now how you need a certain level of unemployment to make the economy work.
And I was saying to him, but that's totally crazy. Somebody being unemployed, how can that be good for the economy? You see, the economy the way it's structured is inverted. This idea that somebody could not be working
Cláudia: and that's good for the economy, this is a crazy idea. It it has an inversion in the very root. The first cause of it is inverted.
So
Richard: that's just I just want to give a little example of of how we uh how that is, because you can see that in every area of life, including theology, and this question that we're entering now of the of the Lucifer and the demons. This idea of the devil, Lucifer, Satan, many named Beelzebub, I think there's many different names for this being, and maybe they're different beings.
This I don't know. But is this just a myth, a product of hallucination? There are many people even in the church who believe that the devil as a an entity does not really exist, it's more a mythology or something.
How
Cláudia: how Wilfred being a famous psychoanalyst said "to hallucinate is not only to imagine and see and hear things that apparently do not exist, but it's mostly deny what is obvious, what we hear, we see and we sense with our five common regular senses, but also with our intuitive sense, our consciousness, our perception, our intuition." So what have been happening is this form of hallucination since the, you know, this started mostly officially with Descartes, I guess.
Richard: Descartes, 1600s. And
Cláudia: then it was like growing and growing, and in the 19th century, this was already something very well established, that demons, demonology was something like belonging to the past, a kind of backwatered view of life and spirituality. "Yeah,
Richard: we don't believe that anymore." 20th
Cláudia: century, my God, that was really a total hallucination in all areas because then everybody denied the existence of evil in the world.
And evil being something like... A
Richard: being, a creature. Yeah,
Cláudia: but then we have to think, okay, so people started to say evil exists only inside man or the human being. It does not exist outside the human being, in the human mind. And this was
Richard: a very disservice. Yeah, or the in the the sort of the environmental movement, it was characterized as being in the corporations, in the government, in
Cláudia: the
in the laws, in the regulations, that the the evil doesn't come from another influence, it's just a few people who want
Cláudia: to make too much money, a kind of a greed thing.
It is seen as that too, but seeing evil in its purest forms and almost like uh denying this must be very evil, you know, denying the existence of evil, denying the presence as Malachi, Malachi Martin quoted, the presence, the presence, the evil presence of this being.
It's noticeable, it's it's very obvious. So people started to deny what is obvious. But to understand this more, it's important to have a more metaphysical philosophy or metaphysical way of thinking. Which goes to the primary causes of everything. So if you go and you analyze what is the cause of this, and then what causes this, and then what is the first cause of the phenomena.
So if you study, the first origin of evil must be from being an intelligent being. Willful, intelligent. And this must be not God, because God is only good, beautiful, and truthful. So God, in his essence, does not allow any, any particle of evil or suffering. No suffering coming from God whatsoever. So where does it come from, this evil force, this malignant, suicidal, homicidal, destructive force, if we don't have it in our nature?
So here comes physiology, biology, genetics to state that all forces from nature, all forces from life are meant to preserve and to reinforce.
Richard: And propagate life.
Cláudia: And propagate life, to preserve and propagate life, never ever to destroy it.
Richard: Even the sexual instinct is about this, right?
Cláudia: All instincts are for life, not against. So this evil instinct does not come from our genetics, from nature, and even much less from its creator, which is God.
So what happened then? So we need to pay attention to this revelation we got from our ancient civilizations that always for millennia knew about evil spirits or evil transcendental or physically invisible spiritual beings.
Richard: The invisible spiritual world that we're trying to make more visible today.
We're back in a moment.
Our work on the Stop Radio Network is based on the landmark psychological and philosophical science of Analytical Trilogy, developed by Brazilian psychoanalyst and social scientist, Norberto Keppe. This is a comprehensive science that offers perspectives on every area of human endeavor.
We expand on this extensively in our flagship program, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. And we offer many other resources for your development, including radio and TV programs, an extensive library of books, psychoanalysis sessions worldwide, teleclasses, conferences and lectures, and volunteer social programs.
I
Cláudia: remember the book Glorification that Dr.
Keppe wrote. I was with him many of the nights or days where he got those inspirations from God, and it was a necessity for him to write what he received. So the book was totally written under inspiration. But it's not only a theological book. It's mostly a scientific book, very therapeutic book, very beautiful, by the way. And he used to wake up during the night, 2, 3 in the morning, and he said, "let's go to the top of the mountain." And we were watching the sky in this dark night with no interference, so you could transcend the sky and see heaven through it.
Oh my God. You could adapt the writings that he did with the music of Beethoven and this would be a trilogy of his writings and the music would be heaven.
Norberto Keppe, and there are many exciting applications of his work occurring in Brazil and numerous other locations around the world. This includes language classes, translation services, psychology sessions by phone or Skype, and the new energy solutions proposed by the Keppe motor.
Now back to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the stop radio network.
We're
Richard: back.
That's the subject of our program today on the stop radio network. Richard Lloyd Jones with Cláudia Bernhardt. Dr Keppe says here that "we ourselves, meaning you and he and the members of his society, when beginning our work did not believe in spirits and demons as a influence on the human being."
We thought those ideas were extremely naive, that they eliminated man's responsibility for his own errors, that it would be like putting the blame on the devil. Well, you can see this comes a lot from the influence I think of the Austrian school, right, of the
Cláudia: all the
Richard: scientific existentialists, right, we create
Cláudia: our existence, all this all psychologies. Richard, they never consider spirit pathology.
The psychologists and the psychology schools, the psychological orientations, psychoanalysis, even mostly psychiatry, they do not consider spirit pathology.
Richard: So what led you and Dr. Keppe to that area? How did you, I mean, if the whole training of psychoanalysis is that the individual and problems with the parents, problems with trauma from childhood, biological problems, what led you guys to to go deeper
Cláudia: into that experimental practice of psychoanalysis?
Yeah, we were lucky, Richard, because we have always had hundreds of clients to attend in our society, people who came to us suffering with mental illnesses, psychosis, neurosis, psychosomatic illnesses. Because since his the beginning of Dr Keppe's work he was very much able to heal people from psychosomatic diseases. He worked in the hospital of the University of São Paulo for many years, and and there he was like a major psychotherapist and psychosomatic researcher.
And so uh quoting again being he said "what heals is the truth. So don't stick to theories when you see a client, but go to the truth, to the deeper truth, because only truth heals the patient." And this was a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst speaking, not Jesus. And Jesus said the same. So when people came to Keppe, because he had this very, very deep belief in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
So when people came in and asked him, "how come you can be a psychoanalyst and be christian at the same time" yeah and he said as if
Richard: the two were totally incompatible exactly
Cláudia: because freud was a an atheist so he said "well if i have to choose jesus or freud i will always pick up jesus teachings so there is no problem with that" and doing so he was able to heal more people and faster because he had jesus christ's spirit of his teachings yeah now going back to what i was saying you asked me how did you get there it was like through the inner self of human beings there inside the human being we found that lucifer or many other followers of lucifer and demons and devils are hidden there inside us doing a lot of harm appearing
Richard: through our ideas or the way we speak about others and not
Cláudia: only through hallucinations deliriums not only in the so-called psychotic people no in the psychotic this is absolutely clear as in the hysterical patients it's very clear the action of the devil and some people used to say "oh this is just a theatrical uh form of expression people are like under suggestion uh psychological suggestion watching too many movies or something like this"
Richard: yes or wanting to call attention towards them
Cláudia: yeah and but uh the psychotic the schizophrenic the the deliriums the themes of the deliriums they were always evil and mental illness is a form it's a kind of like it's
a matter of degree let's say so you can be with your psychosis under control and be just a neurotic but you can develop this if you do not pay attention if you do not understand what is happening what is going on in your mind you can become a psychotic you can become a epileptic patient even you can like become a possessed true Possessed person.
Richard: By following ideas that are crazy, by thinking things, by allowing these strong emotions to dominate, we can become... Absolutely.
Cláudia: Possessed. Absolutely.
Richard: This I see this, you know, Cláudia.
Cláudia: Because possession always comes with what they call negative emotions, negative behaviors, destructive behaviors, lack of ethics, like psychotic, like psychopaths, killers, suicidal, addicted, like substance abusers.
Richard: People who get furious for nothing.
Cláudia: Compulsive behavior. So there are many, many expressions of mental illness, which we know they are always involving spiritual components.
In Brazil, we have many, many people that follow that kind of, it's not a true religion, but it's a sort of spiritualistic activities where they have those mediums, they receive uh the
Richard: the spirits of the dead, ancestors or all
Cláudia: sorts of. Yeah, so here in Brazil it's so well known this activity.
But you know what happened when we received clients coming from spiritual like spiritist uh background, from this places where they receive and they call and they are median and they have this...
Richard: They call the spirits, don't they?
Cláudia: They call, they receive, they incorporate. They were much, much more difficult to get healed. Much, much complicated. They could even be like in key positions in society.
They were like professors in universities. They were politicians, directors of enterprises. But they had this kind of disturbance, spiritual disturbance, that ended up by destroying their career, their profession, or their health, physical health.
Richard: And how did you come to see these kinds of reactions that people had as spiritual? Normal psychologists would just say it's a delirium, it's a chemical imbalance. What led you to say, is it your theological background that led you guys to say that this has to be something spiritual?
Cláudia: Not only theological, but we did what B.N. Advised. He said, "observe the client. Talk to the client. See the truth. Why should we say, no, you are not seeing anyone. You are not seeing anything. You're not hearing anything." Of course. So only this, Richard, because if you go to a doctor and you tell, "I'm hearing voices," he will give you immediately a very strong...
Richard: Antipsychotic medicine. Yeah.
Cláudia: Or they even
Richard: institutionalize you. Yeah, sure. They
Cláudia: put you under situations that are unbearable for you. Yeah. That will destroy you, your personality, your health,
Richard: your future, your life. When you listen to beyond, then there was something, but I think there's something here too, Cláudia, about you and Dr. Keppe, your belief, faith, that led you to say, "well, let's listen to this.
Let's really try and understand what this is instead of just dismissing it."
Cláudia: I would say that we were led more by our scientific attitude. Okay. And we wanted, really, humanitarianly speaking, our humanitarian side, to support, you know, the degree of suffering of a person who hears voices and sees the spirits, and they don't know what to do with it. It's so immense the suffering that we wanted to help them. So we started to consider the possibility of them speaking the truth and really be seeing and watching and hearing spirits.
So so simple as this. We started to support them in this journey, be at their side and analyze the situation with them. And you know what happened? Many of them got relief, they got
Richard: relief, they were
Cláudia: out of psychosis, they were able to go go back to an almost normal normal life, like any neurotic person as we all are. So they just doing analysis, no medication, they went out of their crisis, the psychotic crisis.
We started to think, "oh my God, so Jesus Christ was real. What he said was true. All the biblical references then were not just symbolic or metaphorical. They were true."
Richard: Because Satan, Lucifer, wants us to be ignorant of his existence. If we're ignorant of it, he has much more reign to move. The New Testament talks about the devil and his demons many times.
Jesus calls Satan the enemy, the evil one, the prince of this world, a liar and the father of lies, a murderer. The apostle Paul calls him the god of this age. If we're going to be truly Christian, to listen to what Jesus had to tell us when he came here over 2 000 years ago, we should be listening to this.
Cláudia: And obviously if you pay
Richard: attention he came this exactly for this, otherwise he would
Cláudia: not have to come, he would
Richard: not
Cláudia: have to come here.
He came to advice that we were following the wrong the wrong orientation, the wrong god, an upside down being.
And and he was all the time exercising people, chasing out demons, healing and healing and healing with mercy, and believing in what they said, not denying the suffering they had, and knowing the cause. So you would ask me, Cláudia, so why then should we need psychotherapists? Or why should we need science if all the priests and pastors are teaching this, or most of them are teaching this?
And many evangelic pastors are chasing out demons in churches because this matter of demons and demonology and evil is not only a matter of a church, for a religious person or religious people or a church. It's a universal problem. It's a social. All civilization is impregnated by evil. So if you go to a church and if you have like a blessing And if you are healed from a heart disease or from suffering a compulsion, if you do not understand in depth how intrincado we say in Portuguese.
Richard: Ah, yeah, sure, entangled is like…
Cláudia: It's so entangled. Inside
Richard: everything. Evil is so much
Cláudia: entangled in
Richard: society, in laws, in the field of also sciences, like medical science, like technology, physics, education. Economy, maybe. Economy, all fields. So
we suffer from the influence of evil, of the devil, not only through our minds, which is the most common source of evil is through our minds.
But not only this, all society is impregnated. So we should get united, get
Cláudia: together and do like a transdisciplinary study and fight the common enemy. I want to make clear that this separation between like religious people and science, medical people, psychoanalysts is very, very harmful. They fight, they say this is not a matter for science. And scientists say oh this is just an illusionary thing, we will not deal with spiritual problems, this is not our matter.
It is, it's the matter of all of us.
Richard: It seems difficult to accept the relevance of this, doesn't it? So complete has been our programming in our western education system. Anyway, just entering a transcendental explanation for human experience into the discussion can get you labeled a wacko, psychotic or at best, a dabbler in pseudoscience. But I believe Norberto Keppe is bringing a cohesive and valuable perspective to the table.
One thing to leave you with, our first mistake comes when we deny that the planet is dominated by demons. That's our program for this time. More to come on our series on spirituality. Stay tuned.
