Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: When you commit a sin, you have a voice behind you, blaming you, accusing you. This is not God's voice. This is devil's voice. Now,
Richard Lloyd Jones: We've entered a kind of a beautiful dimension. I was thinking of many things as you were speaking about the Christian dialectics.
Dialectics and Jesus' example and this idea of inverted projection. I remember the case. It's one of the few stories I remember from my misspent years as a youth. I went to Sunday school for a few years as a kid. And one of the stories I remember, one of the few stories I remember, is the story of the woman who had committed adultery and the men who were wanting to stone her as following the law, Jesus's law passed down through Moses.
This is their idea. And Jesus's great response to that was, let you who have no sin throw the first stone. And that's a fabulous phrase because it's not judging anyone. It's not telling anyone what to do. It's putting the responsibility into the person. If you are so clean, then you can judge the other person. If not. But what's interesting is what happened after. Because the moment he said, you can imagine all the guys there, like, totally pumped up and angry, frustrated, because they're seeing all of the pathology of the world in this poor woman, who did sin, as Jesus said.
But
Cláudia: everybody has sinned.
Richard: Yes, everyone has sinned. And then having to stand there and go, now what? Now what do I do? You know, now what do I do with all this consciousness? And that can cause two things, as Gandhi said. If a man strikes you and you strike back, he has an excuse to hit harder. But if you don't respond with violence, now the person has a decision.
It's exactly what Jesus did. This is the dialectic thing you're mentioning. Now we have a choice. We can rise up in our resonance and respond, yes, that's true. I'm a sinner too. Who am I to judge? Or we can get angry at the person who gave us this consciousness.
Cláudia: And when you get angry back, it's not that
Richard: you are reciprocating
Cláudia: reciprocating, but you are in the same level.
You are like entering entering in resonance, like in in
Richard: the same level of vibration, so you lower down lower the
Cláudia: vibration, and then demons get you. Yeah, they take you.
Richard: Yeah, and they take us through our emotions and our thoughts, right. So and then our consequently our actions. But it's exactly as you said, we lower our vibration to the level of vengeance, these lower levels, instead of rising up to the level of forgiveness and tolerance.
And that's
Cláudia: why jesus said don't oppose it, like don't oppose to evil, don't oppose evil. It's not the sense of not opposing evil. It's not that you're not going to say no to evil, for for sure you have to,
Richard: you have to
Cláudia: recognize it, yes, and say no to evil, not to get involved in evil things. But it's do not enter in resonance, do not respond, because if you respond in the same level with the same emotion, then you get caught, you get caught by the same demons that the person is is presenting, the same evil, the same demons, they they get you, they get you if you respond in the same level.
Yeah, we
Richard: don't think of it as being responding with demons, but in dr Keppe's work now
Cláudia: we're seeing that this is a resonance with a demon level of energy. If we do not consider spirit pathology, we are not really doing true analysis and true psychotherapy. We need always to to enter into this subject. Even if the person is an atheist, we have to mention, we have to focus on this because they can understand and they can know that they are being, like, obsessed, they are being persecuted, they are being deceived by evil spirits.
Richard: Yeah, this is really important. Now, let's come back to this point you were making at the beginning, Cláudia, about consciousness, the importance of consciousness, of errors. Even Jesus said, I can't tell you everything now because you can't bear it. So are you suggesting that now we have to start bearing it?
Cláudia: We need to. Otherwise, what will happen? We see things deteriorating so fast.
My God. My God. You know what? I have read that a lot of white male Americans from 45 to 54 are dying, much more than they should. That between 1999 and 2003, 500,000 Americans in this situation died. Young men. Young
Richard: men that
Cláudia: should not have died. So this is so strange.
Richard: Dying of heart, not like a
Cláudia: war. They did not mention, but they said many reasons, like drugs, like whatever, heart attack.
But they are dying. So if this is happening, it's not only a socio-economic, psychological problem. There is something very evil going on in humanity. And we see now people dying like flies, poof, poof, poof, in young ages. And we see nature responding heavily to this mistreatment nature is getting from humanity. So, if we don't see this quickly, we are taking the risk of Lucifer succeeding in his plan.
In
Richard: his domination of...
Cláudia: In his plan of annihilating humanity. Yeah. The end of Lucifer in his plans is to liquidate with humanity.
Richard: Because humanity is a creation of God. Yes. He wants
Cláudia: to, in a way, attack God through... He can't attack, he can't destroy God. Exactly that. Exactly that. Wow. So every war, every problem, every catastrophe, every corruption. Every inverted structure. It's linked and inspired by
Richard: Lucifer and his followers because they are the number one enemy of us.
And they're not kidding. They are really doing something to destroy humanity. They are committed. Totally. Committed to annihilate. Now, going back
Cláudia: to this thing that you mentioned, when Jesus was here, demons came to him and said, why do you come to torment us? Why are you tormenting us? Because the truth causes torment to demons. As the truth causes torment to sick individuals, to psychotic individuals, to psychopaths, to human beings in general.
They don't want to see the truth, whatever truth. So daydreaming is the law. It's a psychological law everywhere, daydreaming, because people don't accept the truth as if truth was a torment. An enemy. Tormenting, and this is totally inversion, totally upside down, totally, 100% upside down thought.
Richard: Of course. How could the truth torment us, right? It only torments us because we want to be free to do the wrong thing, and the truth is tormenting to this desire to do the wrong thing, which
Cláudia: is a demonic idea.
Exactly. And seeing the consequences of what we do, the terrible consequences, it takes away the pleasure in doing evil. Right. So many times it just...
Richard: This is why Malachi Martin said there was such an attack against the virtue and ethics of the church, of religion, of Christianity. There was an attack against the values of the church. Not against the church per se, it's an attack against the church, but the real attack is against the virtue, because the virtue makes it more difficult to do whatever crazy thing you want to do, to make money at whatever cost.
So there's an attack against that. Boy, that's powerful. That's why the second point in your principles of exorcism through consciousness is only through becoming conscious of our inverted will and pathology or sins will the human being succeed in freeing himself or herself from the influence of demons.
Cláudia: You know something very practical. When you commit a sin, you have a voice behind you, blaming you, accusing you, blaming you, accusing you.
This is not God's voice. This is devil's voice. Everybody thinks it's God's voice, but it's not. It's devil's voice. So the moment we admit, like we confess to ourselves, to God, we are wrong. And feel The feelings of guilt. We get rid of this voice. It neutralizes this voice. This voice can't do anything. I've often thought of that in terms of... People commit
Richard: suicide because of this.
Sure they do. I've often thought about this when I've watched movies about exorcism. You know, the person who's being exorcised, the demons inside speak to the priest, accusing him of his
Cláudia: sins. And
Richard: I've always thought, well, of course the priest is vulnerable. If he doesn't admit his sins, he will
Cláudia: be totally devastated. Oh, my God. Everybody will know.
Richard: Don't say, don't say.
I don't want to hear. I don't want to hear. But in fact, if the priest or the human being in our case were honest and humble, the demon could say, Richard, you're a liar. You're unethical. Yeah, I know that.
Cláudia: That's totally true.
Richard: And what?
Cláudia: And who you are. And you. And you then. You would say, okay,
Richard: I admit. But you, what do you think about yourself?
And, you
Cláudia: know, it's such a relief when we admit our feelings of guilt. And this is not something only because of religion. No, no, no, it's not learned. It's in our structure. It's in our essence. We cannot live an existence against our essence. And our essence is all towards truth, beauty, and goodness. Even ourselves. A person, like a doctor, knows that all instincts, all cells, behavior, are all towards life and goodness and love.
And even animals show this. Animals show
Richard: this. Here's the hope behind this then, Cláudia, that if we see our problem, we are returning closer to the original state. This is the hope that we have.
Cláudia: That's the value. We purify our essence. We purify our essence and we get happier, healthier. We see so many diseases being healed through this process. So many diseases being healed
Richard: through this process.
Cláudia: I've always liked movies
Richard: about redemption. I think this is why, because somehow the redemption comes through the acknowledgement of the... There's a scene from Les Miserables, Victor Hugo, where the priest says to Jean Valjean that there's more joy in heaven over the face of a repentant sinner than the white-robed just men.
Exactly. It's so... Very ironic.
