Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Demons interfere in our lives through our unconscious. They hypnotize people, and they go little by little seducing people. Now,
Richard Lloyd Jones: I was thinking about this fact of consciousness of evil spirits. This is not something that we are accustomed to talking about. And I found an interesting paper that was written relatively recently from the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Scientific Study of Religion.
And they say that their study suggests that belief in demons and evil spirits is harmful to mental health. So their idea is that just thinking about them makes you sick. It's really
Cláudia: naive, isn't it? It's the inversion that if you see something, it exists.
If you don't see, it doesn't exist and won't bother you.
Richard: Out of sight, out of mind.
Cláudia: Yes, yes. Well, I think we should go a little bit back in history. Okay, great. And think up to when this concept that demons could cause problems, epilepsy, psychosis, neurosis, physical
Richard: illnesses, hysteria.
So up to a movement, a scientific movement, more or less at the time of Freud.
When Freud started his studies, he went to Paris, the true center of culture, everything. Medicine was really French.
Cláudia: Up to some time in history, it was French.
Richard: Up to 1913, Cláudia. There were about, I think between the years 1900 to 1913, the French won 11 Nobel Prizes, medicine, science. Not to say that
Cláudia: Nobel Prize is the peak of things, but it shows that there was a lot of development going on.
Right. So thinking back, the center of studies, of these studies, were in Saint-Petrière, which was a hospital for mentally sick patients.
And Charcot started his researches with hypnosis. And what did Charcot realize? That there is an unconscious. There is an unconscious. The person really has a level of his mental and emotional activities that are not in the level of open knowledge, let's say so, or some… Hidden from view somehow. Yes, hidden, hidden. Hidden feelings, hidden intentions, hidden, like a hidden dimension even, beyond the five senses.
And one of these proofs of the existence of a dimension which is beyond our five senses is hypnosis. Because, for instance, when the person was put under hypnosis, he or she would say things that he would never know under a normal state of consciousness. He would say things and know things like if they entered in a room and after hypnosis they would say every detail of that room.
They couldn't remember
Richard: this consciously but under hypnosis?
Cláudia: They could never ever remember. They would say, no, I didn't see anything of those.
Richard: I didn't see any books, I didn't see any socks on the floor, nothing. Yes.
Cláudia: And they remember those details under hypnosis. Absolutely. This is well documented. And also a lot of preview of things, previewing things.
Richard: Like this telepathy.
Cláudia: Telepathy, not only, but also precognition. Yeah,
Richard: things happening in the future.
Cláudia: Yes, so people under hypnosis, they know a lot of things. Or they show they know much more than they express in conscious life. And saying this, they started to think, okay, so this has nothing, nothing to do with spirits or demons. This is something that is only, only inside the mind of a human being.
Richard: Are you saying this was the beginning of the break then with this
Cláudia: knowledge?
The beginning of
Richard: the break.
Cláudia: So they never considered that this level of unconscious life, which transcends the five senses, that this level could be in touch, in connection to spiritual life.
Richard: This is obvious, Cláudia. This would be
Cláudia: obvious. How could they dismiss that so easily? Yeah, but they did because they had this kind of materialistic, positivistic view at
Richard: that time. They were very positivistic and they were eager to prove that everything the church had brought in terms of philosophy, psychology, theology was everything a mistake or at least they said it was deception.
It was a means to superstition, superstition
Cláudia: to control the people, to control everybody. They were eager to destroy theology at that time. And this was enough for them to say, "no, there is nothing to do with demons or spirits.
Richard: It's an unconscious thing inside the human being that he doesn't see." "Yes. No influence."
Cláudia: "Yes, but you know something? Another proof that other beings can control your mind without your acknowledgement and sometimes without even your conscious permission is hypnosis."
Because if you put a person in this like state of trance in hypnosis, You can order them, give orders, and they will obey these orders. And this kind of dictations, they are forgotten. Right after the person is brought back to conscious, these orders are forgotten.
Richard: "Yeah, totally." "Until the bell rings or the person says a magic word and then suddenly they are stimulated.
And
Cláudia: they receive some instructions that they obey like automatically without even knowing why do I want this or why did I do this?"
Richard: "I just want to clarify, Cláudia, that in the studies that I've read about, they can't be ordered to do anything against their will, though. Is that true? Like, I don't know the details of that."
Cláudia: "There are people who have a very soft ethics or soft will, let's say so.
They are very influential, malleable, and there are
Richard: those or some that have
Cláudia: a very strong ethics, and they won't do something that will be against their ethics."
Richard: Even under hypnosis.
Cláudia: Even under hypnosis. And this is something that shows for us is a proof that there is not a possibility of a possession without the consent of the possessed one. "Okay, there is no possession." "But going a little bit still at that time. Just let me
go
Richard: with that idea. Dr. Keppe said something about this in his book. Human beings must become like semi-demons for them to mesh with evil.
He says that in order for us to follow a
Cláudia: demonic suggestion, we have to agree with it at some level." "Okay, but this is so easy. This is
Richard: absolutely the whole of humanity." "Yeah, exactly. In
Cláudia: levels, in degrees, the whole of humanity is already meshing with evil since we were born. So this is not something like there is a group of people or some people, few people.
No, not only those satanic followers or, you know, no, it's everybody."
It's within all of us. Evil is within humanity. So when Charcot brought this idea, they were able to interfere in the unconscious of the person or in this subconscious level. So that's what we are seeing now in practice. This level or this dimension, which is beyond our five senses, but not necessarily always beyond. Sometimes it includes physical experiences with spirits. But this unseen, this unheard level, they are very active and they are meshing with the negative or the evil spiritual beings.
And people are not aware of this.
Richard: "Yeah, and as you said, it's sort of like the scientific world excluded the spiritual as a possibility." "Absolutely. It's not a
Cláudia: possibility." "Yeah, they denied this possibility.
Richard: So it was either spirits or the subconscious, the natural subconscious.
And what Keppe sees is there is not such a thing as natural subconscious."
Cláudia: We start, since we are born, to create a basement where we hide everything we don't want to see. And this basement can be full of evil things. Like everybody's basement. It's full
Richard: of stuff you don't want to see.
Cláudia: More or less, you have there things you don't want to see. Everybody has.
Richard: Yeah, I think this is a fundamental...
Cláudia: And in there, demons hide, like these movies of Dracula, they hide in a coffin in the basement where no light will see them or will hit them or destroy them, which is no consciousness goes to this unconscious basement we create.
So what do we see then in our therapy if one goes deep enough in our psychological basement, this pseudo-unconscious or this artificial unconscious, we don't like what we see there. But bringing light, evil dissipates and stops being pathological, creating symptoms, creating diseases, dominating the life of that person.
Demons interfere in our lives through our unconscious.
Richard: As Dr. Keppe calls it, the process of inconscientization, right?
Yes. We hide from view what we don't want to see.
Cláudia: And then it appears, as Freud discovered, it appears again, but not as a natural.
Richard: It's like an unnatural, in a sense, thing that we've done. And it begins to appear in the actions that we do.
And we think, oh, my God, why did I do that? Not perceiving the bad intentions or the negative
Cláudia: thoughts we have. This was called in psychoanalysis, atos falhos. You
Richard: do something that you didn't want to do. Yes, you
Cláudia: say or you do things that you don't
Richard: want to do. It's like a slip of some sort. Oh, I didn't mean that.
Cláudia: Yes.
Richard: Or
Cláudia: you forget things.
You go to one place, you should go to one place, and then you go to another.
Richard: One of my students was telling me a story of when she was going to school, she was a little bit late, and she was ironing her clothes.
And she said, "oh, my God, I'm late." She had to throw her clothes on. She went to school. She was doing it at school, normal, having lunch with her friends and everything. On the way home, she suddenly remembered again, "oh my God, I forgot to unplug the iron." And I've used that in the class as an example of the fact that she was conscious, she knew about it, otherwise she would never have remembered it after school.
She knew about it, but hid that from consciousness. It's like a hiding of something bad, and it shows an intention in some way.
Cláudia: And there is the action in this situation of this hypnotic agent, which are the demons. They act like people who perform hypnosis. They hypnotize people. They try to do this all the time, and they go little by little seducing people with seduction, the same as in a session of hypnotism.
It's a form of, like, seduction. Suggestion.
Richard: Little by little, bit by bit. Do this, try that, go there.
Cláudia: Yeah, so relax. It's okay. So listen to this sound and imagine
Richard: a place. Now let go, let go,
Cláudia: let go. And this letting go, it's so, so dangerous. Because this letting go is what happens when you drink alcohol. Sometimes when you smoke marijuana or crack or other things, when you let go and you condone with pleasures or all sorts of seductions.
Like, okay, so I don't have money, but I can't deny giving me this pleasure of buying this thing. I deserve it.
Richard: So let it go. Let it go. Don't worry. It'll be
Cláudia: okay. Don't worry. It will be okay. Let go. Let go. This hypnotic let go, let go is really dangerous. Because it's not only something from our inner minds. It's coming from this other dimension, this subconscious level, where the spirits are very active, even though not physically or seen or heard.
But they are there, speaking. Meditation? Meditation is dangerous, really, yes, good idea. Meditation, yes, when you let go and you enter in this trance state. Yeah,
Richard: this emptier mind
Cláudia: state, this sort of... You open up to all these beings of this dimension. Malachi Martin used to say that there is a plateau between the conscious life and eternity.
Richard: Malachi Martin, he's an exorcist, former exorcist at the Catholic Church.
Cláudia: This plateau is like a middle thing in between, like... In
Richard: between our dimension and the... Yes,
Cláudia: yes. Heavenly dimension? Interface. Interface between... Between our conscious life and eternity or the transcendental life. And this interface is very dangerous. He used to speak about these trips out of the body or out-of-the-body experiences.
Richard: Out-of-the-body experiences, yeah.
Cláudia: This is something that he used to say were very, very dangerous because then you enter in this trance.
And then when you enter this, you get in an hypnotic state, you receive orders, and you become possessed by the will of another person and the others of another beings. The same as in hypnotism. Wow. I remember. That's powerful. I remember two or three people tried to hypnotize me. They never could do this. Never. I believe. And I think, my God, why people let to be hypnotized?
How this happen? But this happens. And this is very frequent. Now, I was not hypnotized by another human being. But God knows how many times I was hypnotized by demons. Every time I did something that was against something natural, against myself, I was hypnotized by demons.
Richard: It's a type of seduction, isn't it?
Cláudia: And so many examples of those happen with everybody. So jump from here.
And some people cannot avoid. They are hypnotized.
Richard: This is like mind control in a way, spiritual mind control,
Cláudia: isn't it?
Absolutely. And demons do this.
Richard: Humanity
is under a spell, under hypnosis.
