Richard Lloyd Jones: Normally, we see a person with serious problems, we recommend professional help. After all, we go to the gym to keep our bodies toned, we go to the driving range. Why wouldn't we do something to address those psychological glitches that pop up in all of us? But what do we do when our whole society is showing signs of breakdown? I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, we'll try to put society on the couch.
You. Your feedback is really helpful in helping me shape the program, so please don't hesitate if you've got a point or a question to raise. I'm always available at rich at richjonesvoice.com. If it takes me a day or two to get back to you, hang in. I am getting to it. If you've listened for a while, you'll know Dr. Cláudia Pacheco very well.
She's a frequent contributor to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head and, frankly, is indispensable to this program And in fact, to everything we are doing down here in Brazil at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy.
Well, Cláudia and I are working on something really interesting. A live internet call-in radio show, which we're targeting to launch this coming January 2009. There are more details coming, of course, so make sure you get on our mailing list. Again, rich at richjonesvoice.com, and we'll keep you posted. What this will be is an online advice show with Cláudia Pacheco, who has 25 years experience in psychoanalysis in Dr.
Norberto Keppe's Analytical Trilogy. To my mind, the most innovative, effective, and powerful form of psychoanalysis on the planet. Anyone who's got any experience with trilogical analysis knows the experience of taking a long-standing issue to a session and getting a completely fresh take on it from the analyst. "Wow, I never saw it that way before," is a common comment. Keppe's Analytical Trilogy goes to the root of the problem, which is always something deep inside us, hidden from view.
This is true deep psychology, often helping us see clearly for the first time long-standing issues that have been blocking us from achieving what we feel we have the potential to achieve. And who doesn't feel that? And after Norberto Keppe himself, Dr. Cláudia Pacheco is the best in the world at helping people at this deep level. So this radio show will be very, very cool.
To have a chance to listen to her weekly will be a great opportunity to address some of the core issues of human beings. And you'll be able to call in personally with individual questions and issues. We're calling the program Healing Through Consciousness, and we're both pretty excited about it, so make sure you get on the mailing list for that, rich at richjonesvoice.com.
We'll keep you updated. You know, we've had a lot of response to the last three podcasts looking at the roots of the economic crisis.
A few thousand downloads of those programs, actually, giving a pretty loud and clear message that people are looking for some answers, some ways to understand what's going on. Well, one of the applications of Norberto Keppe's work is in the area of social psychology, analyzing the society as we would a person's neurosis. And why not? I mean, the corporation's been given the same rights as a human being through some decision of Congress way back along the way.
As the Federal Reserve, a mostly private institution, was created by Congress in the early 1900s, even though they had no constitutional basis to do so, so why wouldn't we hold society's systems up to scrutiny? In fact, we must. You know, I noticed in the New York Times earlier this week that European and North American political leaders admit they may not be willing to fulfill their commitments now to cap harmful carbon emissions or phase out polluting factories because of the slumping economy.
A European Commission spokeswoman on the environment said investing in reducing emissions is more difficult to do in times of economic downturn. This is simply hard to believe, isn't it? How in 2008 can we still make decisions based on profits over the environment. It's hard to believe unless you understand about inversion, Norberto Keppe's seminal psychological discovery from the 1970s. Dr. Keppe says in his beautiful book, Glorification, that inversion, sickness, is "the act of rejecting life, labeling it as bad.
It is the attitude of denying truth, seeing it as negative. It's the wish to alter reality, believing it to be harmful. All because of the great envy, the enormous envy we feel toward the Creator. We want to take His place by substituting what is fictitious for what is real." If we were thankful for what is truly good, we would be happy.
But we constantly destroy all that is sound in ourselves because it was not created by any decision of our own. Boy, that is a statement, isn't it? Dr. Keppe is talking directly there about the human inversion and how has this affected society. Today, Cláudia Pacheco joins us to discuss more about this very, very important issue. Well, I'd really like to do some sociotherapy today, Cláudia, if we could, and if you agree, to help people to understand what's going on and to cope with all these crises we see in front of us.
In fact, that's why you started the STOP the Destruction of the World Association, right? To address the root causes of our problems. So because of this new science of Norberto Keppe, psychosociopathology, psychosociotherapy, I thought we could use some examples and maybe provide some therapy into those situations to help people understand.
Maybe the first thing to address would be this current problem facing the world economy, the big three automakers going to Congress in the United States to get some bailout money because they're going bankrupt and very fast. Some say that GM will be bankrupt by the end of the year if we don't do something. They've had a sharp drop in sales, no credit markets.
It's been very difficult for them to get money. So the sword that they're holding over Congress's head is that if they don't get this money, this $25 billion that they want, there's going to be a loss of up to 3 million jobs. That's what they're saying. So everyone's scared to death about what this would mean to the economy. And I wanted to look at this psychologically, because I think there's a big problem with us thinking that we need the jobs provided by big corporations.
Norberto Keppe talks about this directly, I think. How can his work help us to understand that our desires to hold on to a failing stock market, because we're afraid of losing jobs from corporations, that this is a signification of dependence in some way?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: What I find amazing is that Keppe developed this science in the right time of history in this planet. Because it's not only that we need a change, it's time for change.
But what kind of change must be done, must be pursued? And so I find that those three big corporations, they are just a symbol, Richard, and they are like a tip of the iceberg of a major huge sickness in our social economic structure, in our institutions, in our philosophies, in our sciences, that had developed in an inverted way. So as in our organism, in our body, if we develop too much kind of bacterias, viruses, and we end up by having a collapse in our immunological system and we die.
So that's what we see now. This huge organism that involves not only the planet nature but society, mankind and its institutions and values, now are coming to a crisis. A crisis with no like solution for this in terms of preserving this, and we should not preserve it. Evil does not exist by itself, so it has no future. All these institutions, all these values, they have to end so we can have the true civilization, the true humanity, the true society to start.
Now
Richard: let's talk about those true parts of society in a minute, Cláudia, but first I think it would be important to follow up on this that you're talking about. You're suggesting that as the body shows symptoms of disease, so the society is showing symptoms of disease. What is the disease it's showing symptoms
Cláudia: of? Speculation is a huge disease, for instance.
Money does not make money. What creates richness is human work, human valuable work, beautiful, truthful, necessary work. And using nature, we call in Portuguese matéria-prima.
Richard: The raw material.
Cláudia: Raw material, that it's like a gift from nature, from God. So using nature in a correct way, we will have a sustainable economy for us and for the future. Future generations. But this is not what we have been seeing.
And when Keppe discovered the problem of inversion, inversion in our inner self, inversion in our perception, inversion in our values, he also perceived that the society, human society, is organized upside down. Starting from sciences, passing through laws, economic laws, even sometimes churches or religious institutions that give a wrong idea about God, pushing away millions of people from faith. So we cannot force any longer society to live in an inverted way, upside down.
So, those who accept this change, or this coming back, or this conversion, this going back to the right version of humanity, is happening, and we are participating in it, and it seems has no way back.
Richard: It's like a one-way street with no exit. No
Cláudia: exit. So, no matter what they do, no matter what they plan to save this speculation, the banking system, the way it is organized, exploitation, human beings exploiting their fellow man, all these laws that were validated, between quotes, by judges and congress people, and they were against humanity.
Now they will have to fall because they cannot exist by themselves. It's forced using armies, using
Richard: jail, using psychiatric hospitals, doctors, medicines, all against nature. It's not natural. So you're suggesting that we need to go back to other values, to other ways of seeing things that we had sometime in the past,
Cláudia: and speculation is one of the the sickest cancers in society.
Richard: We could talk, too, I think, Cláudia, about one of the other basis, psychological, philosophical basis for these problems we have today being, as Dr. Kebby has talked about and you just talked about now, inversion, but also this question of theomania, right? This desire to be bigger than what we are. I noticed that the CEOs for Ford, Chrysler, and GM all arrived to beg money from Congress.
They arrived in their private jets. And I thought, you know, Rather than just pointing the finger at those guys and getting morally righteous and saying, oh, look at those crazy guys, we could look at this in a larger perspective. They're demonstrating something to us that's prominent in all human beings. This question that we want to be bigger than what we really are.
How do you
Cláudia: understand that? Yeah, and this is also showing that they depend totally on workers and people and the money, the taxpayers' money.
And they don't want to give up. The pathology of power was thoroughly studied by Keppe in the book Liberation of the People, pathology of power, and some people can take it. They can't read it. They start reading this book and they say it's too much, it's too much truth in it and I can take it. But those who go, who have the courage to to read the whole book, they will see how much inverted we are, that people think that they need the powerful people in order to survive, that they depend on them.
But it's totally the other way around. Powerful people are totally dependent on workers, on common people, people who do things. And I'm not saying that all powerful, all powerful are evil powerful. There are good powerful people that try to use their power to do what is good, and it should be like this. And in the future, this will have to happen because good leaders must rule humanity but in favor of humanity, good, beautiful and truthful.
Some people say "oh this is utopic, this will never happen," but if we think that evil is the absence of good and it has no essence, and evil and social economic diseases, it's not a fatality, it's not to be doomed to to be always in in poverty. No, this is it's perpetuating inverted laws and they can and they must go back to the normal place so they can have a normal flow.
So when humanity goes back to the disinverted laws, and Keppe writes in depth about those laws in his books, when people start becoming conscious, they will have much confidence in themselves. You know something, Richard, firing 3 million people or even more, some people speak about 6 million because there are some related businesses that depend on this huge multinational factories. When people think about this possibility they are scared because they think if those powerful people they stop ruling us we'll have no food, we'll have no work and we have no chances.
They don't think that all these enormous corporations they live sucking the blood of the people in terms of taking money, taking their values, their intelligence, their work. So powerful people should understand that if they work in favor of the people, they will have a much richer society, a much more progressive society, and they will be in a much better state. There are some leaders, we should not think that everybody deserves the same amount of salary or or money.
No, each one deserves what they produce. If you produce more in a higher quality so you deserve a better pay for your what you do. So there will be always some leaders and some like scales in society of more productive people, more useful, more idealistic, hardworking, so those people deserve a better pay for their jobs. So if we understand that good work, beautiful work, generates richness and more work and more work and more work, we see that this motor of pure action, if it's put forward, everybody will have what everybody needs in abundance.
If we follow the rules of beauty, goodness and truth, we'll have not only what we need in terms of health, happiness, but wealth in abundance. Let's talk about this a
Richard: bit more because I can feel already this is a tone of something that's going to calm people, because I noticed that the um some of the powerful people now they're stirring up the fear particularly amongst poorer countries, saying "hey you're not going to have any money anymore, you know, if if we the developed countries go bankrupt.
You're not going to have any money. You're going to be in trouble. So you've got to support us to fix this." They're
Cláudia: going to be in trouble because they get the raw material from the so-called emerging countries.
Richard: Yes. This is important to see this disinversion that we think, as you said at the beginning, that we need them, but actually they need us.
Can you talk a little bit more about that to help people understand what you mean and what Dr. Keppe means about creating our own businesses, creating our own work? I
Cláudia: think, Richard, that one of the most difficult thing was when Keppe started with his model of trilogical enterprises in New York, to convince people that if they would have their own enterprises, they would make much more money than being employees.
And they didn't have confidence, they didn't trust. Not only there, but here in Brazil, where the trilogical companies started. So everybody was so much afraid, but if I leave my job, I have no salary, how am I going to pay my bills in the end of the month. So Capi started a work of conscientization, for instance a truck company, a driver of a truck company, if they would work for a boss or of for a major truck company, they would have a percentage, a very low percentage of what they produced.
So if they would produce for himself all the money and 100 percent would come for his own enterprise and the profits would grow, and that's what happened. So when the first started, the second, the third, the fourth, got so amazed with the with all the money that came in, so they thought oh so this is what is coming to their pockets. So a revolution started.
The trilogical enterprises grew more than 100 percent in the first year and then just jumping the profits and the
Richard: basis of trilogical enterprises. The people are working for themselves, they're owners of their own companies. Yeah, so
Cláudia: it's not we are not against profits at all, it's a
Richard: very good thing,
Cláudia: yeah, but for those who work in the company, not speculators. So people who invest in companies, they generally do that because they know people's work makes profit, and the workers don't know this.
They think that the money invested is bringing profits, so it's all upside down.
Richard: Yeah, and yet people will say look I want to invest in this company, I support this company, people who are more generous investors, not just the people who are speculating, just trading to make money, but people like us who say, oh, there's an interesting company, I'd like to invest some money in that company, and I should get a return on that.
How do we talk to those people? How do we change that mentality? Is it necessary to change
Cláudia: that? Not change their mentality of the investors, but their mentality will have to change because the system is collapsing and there is nothing they can do about it, because the problem is that the disease is in the system itself. Everything that is wrong, that is not according to the natural laws, they tend to finish to in some point.
It's like the organism, as I told you Richard, if a person take too much drugs or if they eat badly or if they don't exercise, if they're not, if they have too much stressful kind of lives, if they don't follow the natural laws, they tend to die earlier. So because we live against this natural loss, upside down, we we dive too early.
One of
Richard: the guys said in our group analysis last night that "society is showing symptoms of aids, all the
Cláudia: systems are collapsing at the same time." Absolutely, and nature is showing the symptoms of aids. We have birds having aids, we have bees, bees having aids, so it's we are um contaminating all nature with our wrong upside down behavior. I still want
Richard: to come to this true society because that'll be very beautiful at the end of our podcast, but I just have another point I wanted to make before we finish today, that I was reading in one of our daily free papers here in Brazil that I don't know if it's true around the world, but here in Brazil women
Cláudia: are more concerned about the economic crisis than men are, 62.3 of women compared to 49.5 percent of men, and they're saying in in the articles I'm reading that it's because women work more with family finances, they're more concerned about how the family is going to survive.
Do you have any other view of this? That's probably part of the story, this may be part of it, but I think that as I wrote in my book Women on the Couch, women tend to be too much relying and trusting the powerful man and the powerful institutions. Women are much more obedient to institutions than men and they support much more the powerful, and so if they have to choose between a powerful man, cold psychopathic kind of man, they would choose him if they are rich, if they are powerful, instead of a good intelligent loving hard-working man.
So women have this tendency. So if they start seeing these institutions falling apart, those powerful men losing their power, they tend to be afraid, but they are upside down because women don't realize the working force we represent. In Trilogy, we have wonderful women working and producing beautiful things.
And in this society women have as much power as men, there is no difference, so women have trust in what they in their capacity to accomplish and they work side by side in the enterprises. You belong to one, you are a partner of one technological
Richard: enterprise, and you see that you have women good partners, no competition but mostly cooperation between men and women in those enterprises.
But
Cláudia: not only among men and women, but also among the trilogical enterprises themselves. Because on the contrary to what happens in society, what makes us strong is not competition. It's cooperation. We cooperate in order to be stronger.
Richard: I was thinking about that because if you have a competitive environment, whoever is the strongest, quote unquote, in the inverted way, is going to dominate.
It may not be the best product. In fact, in most cases, it's not.
It's whoever has the most power, whoever has the most influence, whoever has the most money. But that's not the best for society. So if we cooperate, if all of the software companies, for
Cláudia: example, cooperated to create one software program that was great for everybody, if all the car companies got together and created one environmentally friendly, beautiful car using the Keppe motor, we would have a completely different society if they cooperated.
We will be flying in our flying saucers very soon, Richard. We go to other planets. Absolutely. Because then in the moment we start cooperating and we disinvert our laws, because this must be changed also in terms of laws. Because society was gradually organized, obeying laws that protect the powerful and punish the common people and protect the evil intentions and punish the humble ones.
And when I say the humble ones, I don't say only the poor ones. I see the people who are not arrogant, that are human beings, that they have love, they have intelligence, they want to do something good for their fellow man, so they work for their families, their friends, humanity, nature, they are scientists, they are incredible artists many times, and they are humbled.
They are humiliated because of those laws you see a good artist how many times they have no chances to survive they do millions up to now with Mozart's works with Beethoven's works with Schubert's works Schubert was totally poor Mozart died very poor so we see how many incredible geniuses suffered from this inverted loss in society and how much this inverted loss hindered society from a true development
Richard: material development even material development even and what would our world be without a Mozart or a Beethoven you can't imagine the world would be totally poor totally sick and
Cláudia: because of this crazy crazy lunatic addiction to profits People stopped developing technology So they didn't develop the cars In General Motors, Ford and Chrysler So they lost the game Because they stick to profits and oil and all that So we could have already cars In a sustainable manner Much
Richard: more comfortable Comfortable, elegant, sustainable ecological, developed, everybody, rich everybody in their beautiful cars and handsome people driving their beautiful, healthy cars people now think this is a doomsday like in terms of now it's apocalyptic times so it's doomsday, everybody will be destroyed and we don't have this vision we have a vision of transformation of going back to what is real So let me just put in a quick plug for our new radio program for internet radio.
We're going to hopefully launch in January. It's called Healing Through Consciousness. It'll be this kind of program where people can call in and ask questions, deal with specific issues, and we will provide sociotherapy, analysis of what's going on in the world, a very exciting project that we'll launch in January. And I just want to make an announcement now that it's coming. But at the end of our podcast, I'd like to get your vision of the true society.
What would it be?
Cláudia: Richard, I'm sure the future society will have everything every human being have dreamt about. If we can dream about something, it's because this something, this dream can be accomplished sooner or later. So our society will have all our dreams accomplished and come true. And so start dreaming now because what we dream and if what you dream will be for your own good and especially for the good of humanity and the planet and nature and if your dream is according to God, you can absolutely be sure that your dream will be accomplished sooner or later.
Richard: But that means seeing how we block our dreams, doesn't it? And there's the rub. We think that if we see problems then we have them so we're programmed to avoid seeing them. But Keppe's reminding us that only through seeing can we correct. And that's what this program is all about. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Talk to you next time.
