Richard Lloyd Jones: Everybody has theories about what's causing our current economic breakdown. Those raised on the French philosophy of Sartre and Voltaire might lay the blame at the feet of society. More existential thinking would point the finger at individual responsibility. But only Norberto Keppe's new science gives us the tools to do a more complete analysis. Today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, we look at the origins of our destruction and what we have to know about ourselves in order to stop, which is the crux of the thing, isn't it?
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Well, one of the very clear problems we run into when tackling the issue of what's going on these days is that we always wind up in the same place. There's this theory over here, that one over there, three more somewhere in the middle. How in the world does the ordinary citizen make sense of it all? There are so many problems in so many areas.
The Comptroller General of the U.S. Shocks us in 60 minutes by talking about fiscal cancer and all that entails. Al Gore's excellent documentary warns us that the catastrophic deep freeze produced by special effects wizards in the Day After Tomorrow movie could actually happen. Fanatics talk about divine retribution. You can get an earful in whichever direction you turn. But is there any way to boil all this chaos and crisis down to something chewable?
Is there any way to point to an overarching and principled problem? And maybe more importantly, if there is a defining explanation, can it also offer us a solution or two? Well, I think yes on all those counts. You see, our difficulties begin in our way of seeing and relating to the world. We and the society we live in are products of what's going on in our philosophies of life, in our psyches.
And there's one point from which we must start in considering this. We are not the latest additions of the human species standing on the most recent rung of the evolutionary ladder. We're not like software upgrades, the latest version, with considerable improvements over Zinzathropus Man from several million years ago. This is a key aspect of Brazilian psychoanalyst Norberto Keppe's work, that we have all perfection inside us.
And as nature is complete, so are we. Our problem is that we deny and even destroy what we are. This makes our problem not one of not having arrived, of not knowing any better. No, it's much more serious than that. We know what is right. We know what we should do, individually and collectively, to have a better world, to have the paradise we should live in.
We know, but we don't do it. And this is something deep inside the human psyche, which is why it took a psychoanalyst to discover it. Dr. Norberto Keppe's work is totally about helping us understand this dynamic. We're exploring that, of course, every time on this podcast, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We'll also be exploring it more in a radio program, internet radio program, coming up in January with Dr.
Cláudia Pacheco. I'm really inviting you to look forward to that. Please get on my mailing list if you want to find out more, rich at richjonesvoice.com. Dr. Cláudia Pacheco joins us today to look at the aspects of Norberto Keppe's work and how they might help us in today's very troubling and troubled world. I noticed something very interesting the other day in the New York Times.
The Vice President of General Motors, Robert Lutz, saying that one of the reasons General Motors is having such a hard time right now is because the company's being hamstrung, really restricted negatively by regulations on fuel efficiency and vehicle safety. And I think this is really a window into how human beings are generally, that we want to do whatever we want and have no consequences.
We want to be free to make money however we want without any restrictions, without any answering to what's right or good or beautiful, without answering to any rules. So we want to be the ones who determine the rules, don't we?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Yeah. So what we see happening, Richard, is that an old era, a whole society, civilization that was built upon some beliefs that money is the basis of civilization.
So this is ending now. It's the end of this old era. And it's the start of a new era where the richness is of course coming and it's even coming in abundance for everybody because if we turn our mentality our actions towards reality we will not waste energy time money brains lives etc etc nature we will work in in the right direction we will work in our favor and in the favor of humanity and nature but there is this impasse and there is this turning phase it's a critical point in humanity where so many people are depending on those old-fashioned jobs like the car companies and all this technology that was developed all this investment all this structure commercial industrial educational academic technological which is huge and it's falling apart so people are really scared and this is a difficult phase when people will have to first find solutions and go step by step from one direction to the reverse of this direction so new jobs will start to be to be developed like green jobs realistic jobs good beautiful and truthful things necessary things for humanity so people will have to start investing investing in goodness people will start investing and believing and putting money on good truthful realistic projects and this is part of the inversion we suffer people don't believe they don't invest in what is good life is day to day making money paying your bills and we need we depend on those destructive structures
Richard: yeah this is in fact we
even have a saying in english after we've had a beautiful weekend or something we go well back to reality back to reality
Cláudia: back to that
Richard: yeah mixed up inverted crazy world so
Cláudia: i have some clients and sick clients calling from many many cities uh in United States and also in europe of course but um they when i tell them well if you want to get better you want you you need to start doing good in your life doing good beautiful and truthful things.
So in order to get better, we need that. And he says, for instance, a patient, he says, but I need to feel better in order to transmit a good feeling to others. How can I do something good if I don't feel good, if I feel better? So I tell him, okay, but you have to start doing something good and then you will feel good.
And then he says, and he's right, but what am I going to do. Society does not provide me any means to be good other than just voluntary work, church works, and those kind of NGOs. Helping
Richard: somebody across the street every once in a
Cláudia: while. Yeah. So what Keppe proposes is that goodness, ethics, beauty, truth, honesty, spirituality must be in every action in our lives.
Everything we do, any act of work we do, if we do it honestly for the good of other people and ourselves, is a divine work. So this must enter society. The true theology, that's a trilogical theology, must enter society so it will be able to save humanity. Trilogical theology which is the true comprehension of God and humanity.
Richard: Let's talk in some practical terms how that might manifest, Cláudia, because you at the very beginning you sounded very optimistic.
You were saying things are changing, things are coming. And you talked
Cláudia: about this old structure that's really inverted and old and decrepit and causing so many problems. Imagine Obama now, his situation. He is like in a sandwich. One side, people asking for jobs, money, food. On the other side, the necessity to change the structure, to change factors, to change the style of cars, to change everything.
So he's in a sandwich in the middle.
Richard: Very difficult. Very difficult. And how is he going to have any money? All the money is being given out to these old structures. Yeah.
Cláudia: Very tough, isn't it? Yeah. This is another inversion, Richard, when people think that they need powerful people. They need the powerful. This is totally upside down. Powerful people, people in power, they need the people, the workers, people who do things.
And people who do things, they are supporting the powerful. So
Richard: why do they need so much money? I was thinking about this the other day, Cláudia, in terms of the difference between jobs and work. Jobs, we think, traditionally come from these old structures. But work, we have so much work to do. Here in São Paulo, just a few hundred meters from our school, we have a stinking, polluted river.
It needs
Cláudia: to be cleaned up.
Richard: And what
Cláudia: do they claim? They don't have money. So money, this organization is hindering
Richard: society to develop. It's hindering. Money
Cláudia: doesn't help the way it's used. The way it's used. Money hinders development.
Richard: Yeah, we're stopping the development because we say we don't have money and we use the money on really crazy things. But I want to come to this idea The idea of what's behind all of this, Cláudia, because I think there's a real pathological experience that human beings don't perceive in themselves very well.
Dr. Keppe said it this way. He's talking a lot about arrogance lately and this idea of megalomania.
Cláudia: The theomania, right?
Richard: Theomania. Yeah,
Cláudia: theomania. Desire to be like a god. You know what? Jesus was crucified because of the theomania of the people in his time. You know what was the claim against him? A big projection.
Richard: He was trying to be God, right? He said he
Cláudia: was God.
So people projected onto him their deception and their delusions, their delusional ideas. The desire each one had of being themselves God-like, so
Richard: they didn't even recognize who was God. So they projected onto Jesus what they had inside of themselves, and they accused him of being theomaniac. Classic psychology. Incredible. In the psychological life here in theology. Dr. Keppe says in his great book, Liberation, he says, to be humble is to be within reality.
Our attempts to substitute fantasy for
Cláudia: what is real are what we can call psychopathology. Illness entered the world when man tried to close his eyes to reality in order to live according to an imaginary value.
Richard: Boy, that's a paragraph we could study for
Cláudia: weeks. Yes, we have so much to study about that. So this discovery that Keppe made about theomania, it's huge.
Because theomania led humanity to inversion. We think that our fantasy is what is good and reality is bad. So we say what we want, what we create, what we believe, what we do is great. And what the creator did, nature, everything must be changed. Because it's all wrong. So we start from this theomania in the beginning and inverting everything. Truth is bad.
Hypocrisy is good. Laziness is good. And working hard is stressful. So everything is upside down because of theomania. So everything that is coming from God, we see as bad. Goodness, honesty, love, hard work, even sacrifice sometimes. Sacrifice means The sacred work, sacrifice, the origin of the word in Latin is sacred work. So even sacrifice, we need to sacrifice many times. And this is very good.
This is wonderful. This is how we build the best things in our lives, in civilization. So we see as bad. So beauty is secondary in life. Artists they are lunatics and they need the support of bankers in order to survive. So we see everything upside down, even nature. The tomato is
Richard: not right, we have to change the genes to make it more resistant or
Cláudia: right more red or something right.
Medicine for instance, the technology, the medical technology is totally crazy, it's totally crazy, it's Frankenstein working if we really pay attention to that. Vaccines, for instance, they want to substitute the immunological system by vaccines. So, we destroy our immune system with vaccines and we create diseases. So, Richard, "theomania, the mania of being above God, not only God-like, but above God, correcting God," led to envy coming from this theomania so envy came inversion huge inversion arrogance megalomania narcissism anger hate started from theomania so we created a sick society where people know that they are going to the opposite direction we are heading we are heading suicide self-destruction self-annihilation and one of the
Richard: great proposals of Norberto Keppe's work is giving us an alternative now it's giving us a return to reality we'll get to that in a minute but i thought we should bring in our great experiences happening in poland right now yeah the
Cláudia: Keppe motor has been invited there yeah by
Richard: the brazilian government to present
Cláudia: things there and this gives this gives us a lot of consciousness Cláudia because for one thing this motor has only been able to be developed because the the inventors who worked on it were able to understand dr Keppe enough to disinvert their minds to create a motor that didn't run from material yeah where
Richard: the traditional physics says that all energy comes from matter so we have to destroy matter to get energy dr Keppe saying "no that's not that's totally inverted and totally secondary that
there's another energy behind" so talk about what's happening with the Keppe motor in europe now as a way of giving us a hope a sense that something new is happening
Cláudia: yeah I'm very happy because we see that in United States in Canada all over the world there is an increasing interest to understand what is this Keppe motor thing because everybody remember Tesla's inventions that were hidden a long time ago because his inventions would destroy the establishment the economic financial establishment and oil and electricity.
So people wouldn't be able to have in their own homes motors that would provide them energy. Not only that, but it will be a totally green energy, which is totally healthy and balanced energy because electricity, according to Keppe, is an inverted energy. It's destructive. It's a kind of unbalanced kind of use of energy, and it doesn't help human health.
Richard: Yeah, electromagnetic waves are very destructive to our physical organism,
Cláudia: aren't they?
Yes, yes, they are. So, Keppe developed the best discovery and disinverting metaphysics and the work of Aristotle. You know that physics, the traditional physics, is based on the work of Aristotle, the metaphysics of Aristotle, which states that energy comes from matter. And Keppe sees and discovers that matter comes from energy. It's the other way around. So he developed these new studies and Keppe Motor started.
So the new principle of Keppe was able to be proved. Now, the developers, they are studying a mean to make it more powerful. And this takes time, research, application, more people helping. But they got already to a motor with 60 watts of potence. And they got even to 170 watts. So physicists, they are amazed. And there is a group of people around the world that are ready and opened to this new technology.
And we see even governments being opened. So Poznan meeting being held in Poland, and there were huge amounts of people there.
Richard: Yeah, it's a huge conference.
Cláudia: And our representatives of the Capimotor, they were there, and they were invited by the Brazilian Ministry of Technology. And they were able to speak about this invention and they were really, really excited. They know now that there is a chance, there is something to be developed and to be very soon applied to solar panels.
And we are very close to this development. Now, they went also to, and they are now in France, Montpellier, where there is now being held a conference about green energy and renewable forms of energy.
Richard: Big conference, biggest in Europe, I think.
Cláudia: And they are having also a huge reception from these physicists, from these technicians, and people who are really working towards saving the planet.
Not saving like, oh, we save, we are the world, and singing. No, something tangible and starting factories.
Richard: Because, you know, Cláudia, when we do these programs and talk about this energy, There's a lot of people from the traditional school who say, what are you talking about this energy? You know, what is this? But what we need to say is that this energy, the energy of the vacuum, so-called
Cláudia: vacuum.
The space, of the space. Sure, it has been.
Richard: Point zero, whatever you want to call it. It has been theorized by many people before this. Sure.
Cláudia: Keppe's just found a way to capture it because of his disinversion of physics. And it's very close to Bedini's motor, even though it's not the same. Bedini is a scientist that has been researching on this and we have to praise his efforts too.
And not only him but also other scientists that are really dedicating their lives to find a way. And well, Keppe discovered a means to better capture this energy and it's a pulse mechanism which is developed by these two scientists and we want to share this technology with all the technicians and good-willing people. We don't want, we would not like to have these inventions being bought by multinationals.
...companies and put in inside their...
Richard: Yeah, just locked away in a safe somewhere, like it has happened
Cláudia: so many times. I would not like to see this happening. And all the royalties and money coming from this, the inventors and even Dr. Keppe will not hold this money for them, but they will return the money to the development of new technologies based on this.
And not only that, Richard, but in Poznan, there was already a huge way of consciousness that we started in France, Stop la Destruction du Monde, the association I founded in Paris. And we started to make this campaign of conscientization, bringing awareness that there is no way to teach people new forms of life, more green, renewable, ecological, balanced, fair forms of life if we don't see the pathology that is inside our minds and inside human beings.
And this is something that the scientists in Poznań, in Poland, said. We need to do not only the programs, the green programs, but we need to do psychological and psychosocial programs so people are conscientized of their inversion. They don't want to get better. They attack nature as they attack themselves.
Richard: This is incredible. Dr. Keppe says, and I think this is a fundamental point underlying all of this work of Norberto Keppe, is that there is a pre-existent reality.
We don't have to create reality. We don't have to develop reality. We don't have to adapt reality, adjust reality. We need to fit into reality.
Cláudia: Yes, and develop it.
Richard: Yeah. In
Cláudia: terms of going to, like, with it.
Richard: Developing it in the right way, right? Yes. He says it's fundamental for humanity to conscientize
Cláudia: that we don't need to accomplish anything to have what we want.
We already have everything, and we only need to let it flourish in our lives. Do you know what do we need? Something that was said since Socrates and Jesus reinforced. What? We need a little bit of humbleness. Just that.
Richard: I'm glad you didn't say all we need is love, because that's what people talk about all the time. And I think this question of humility is much more bitter pill to swallow for the human being.
Love is one thing we can all talk about. Yes, I need more love. My heart is full of love. But this question of being humble, that touches
Cláudia: everybody, doesn't it? Yes, that touches. So, understanding. What does it mean, Richard? Understanding.
Richard: To stand under, to be underneath the thing
Cláudia: you're trying to learn about her. Yes, like under the carpet. Yeah. To look above and see the wonders of the universe.
So Keppe was saying the other day, how come people exchange the wonders of billions of galaxies and lives and not only in galaxies, but in our planet. If you watch the National Geographic or
Richard: Discovery Channel,
Cláudia: you see how many wonders in the planet and inside the oceans above the surface, like the birds and plants. And all this is being managed by the destruction of the crazy, theomaniac, arrogant lunatics, which are the human beings at the present moment.
So all these wonders, we exchange them for what?
Richard: Money, for position, for really superficial things, right?
Cláudia: And, Richard, money is good. I want to make very clear that richness is good. Your name is rich. So richness, Richard, is really good. Don't give up. So we should not turn our backs to richness. We should have it and have it in quantity and have it in our hands to do, to use it for the improvement of humanity.
So we are not against money, we are not against wealth, we are working to conscientize, we are not against, we are in favor of becoming aware of this psychopathology. So we exchange all these wonders for being worried with our high blood pressure, with our disputes, with our envies, with our fight for concepts and ideas and stupid, totally stupid fights and competition and rivalry, narcissistic deliriums.
So even if we have a car, if we have a house, if we have a family, we don't even enjoy it, we mistreat it. Yeah we destroy, we destroy what is good, we destroy the money, we destroy our economic life, we destroy our relationships, we destroy our bodies, we destroy our health. So we give up all these wonders of life to what.
So instead of enjoying a Christmas time we are caught up by this commerce. And I know I have to give this, I have to give that so that person has this or that person got that, and my, my friend got a present from her husband and I, I want. So I start fighting with my husband and oh my God, all this hypocrisy, all this competition, all these pathologies that are like a spider impeding us from enjoying this beautiful month of the year where we should remember the birth of our savior, the person, the man who was God also and brought this huge hopeful incredible optimistic teachings to humanity, how to get back to paradise.
He came with this good news and what did we do with him. So what we still do, people are fighting to hide him from civilization, to bury him totally. He, he ascended into heaven but they want to bury him, his memories, his image, everything, even the religious people do this when they say to people you need to suffer, sickness has a meaning.
Now please Christians don't get mad, Jewish don't get mad, Islamic don't get mad, but there is a misunderstanding. God could never ever be wanting that their children would suffer for any means. God is not a mixture of good and evil, God is not like this, we are like this. So we project onto God what we are. So God would never ever want us to have any kind of suffering or privation.
The
Richard: suffering comes from us, doesn't it? Totally from us. We
Cláudia: deprive ourselves of that world. Totally from us. Evil does not have substance or essence. Evil is the absence of good, truth, and beauty. Evil is the absence of God in our lives.
Richard: It's such a relief to consider the theological aspects of our current predicament, isn't it? To know that answers can be found when we bring together the knowledge from philosophy, science, and theology, as Norberto Caffey's Analytical Trilogy does so beautifully.
This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Talk to you next time.
