Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Freedom. It's a word that hits deep in the human soul. Let freedom ring. Thank God Almighty we're free at last. Give me liberty or give me death. These powerful declarations echo through time but always seem current. Can there be anything more relevant than freedom? Stacked up against the social justice implied by liberty, our blind focus on monetary self-interest seems petty and pathetic.
In the face of the grand ambitions of the human soul, our typical daily strivings pale in comparison. But for all its power and resonance, freedom in real terms seems dauntingly difficult to achieve. It's easy to see in places where freedom is blatantly restricted, of course. But even in the so-called free world of the West, true freedom, as Christ and King and Kennedy called for, has eluded us.
Perhaps this is because we've confused freedom with being free to do whatever we want. And that, in Keppe's psychological view, is fraught with peril. The spiritual danger of letting yourself go today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Well, before we dive into this meaty topic, a little update. First of all, of course, we're very grateful to all the listenership to our Thinking with Somebody Else's Head program and our Stop Radio network.
And I want to encourage you to spread the word about us. We have a lot of downloads to our programs and regular listeners and long listener hours to our radio station. So I think there's a market for what we do. And I want to encourage you to get the word out to those who might like what we do but who haven't heard about us yet.
We stream through iTunes. And this great new free app, TuneIn, makes us available anywhere on your mobile device or anybody's mobile device. You can like us on Facebook, too, of course, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head Facebook page there. If you're really inspired by what we do, you can leave us a voice message, too, on our sites.
We have a new program coming online soon, too, Women on the Couch, with Monene Daly-Hart and Bob Butler, based on Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco's provocative book, Women on the Couch, An Analysis of Female Psychopathology. That's a book for anyone who's in relationship, meaning, of course, all of us. That's coming soon on this top radio network.
Freedom. Well, the last words cried out as William Wallace's life was taken from him in Mel Gibson's Braveheart. The word carries a charge, doesn't it, and has been used to give and take freedom in our disturbed world. Iraq was invaded to give people their freedom, supposedly, although freedom is hardly what's happened there, leading us to cynicism and apathy as we see the corrupt spin being put on the Word.
And we realize there's been something behind that cry for freedom, a bloodlust of bad intentions masquerading as freedom, because they know we'll all fall for that again, as we always do, because freedom has that great a pull in our soul. But we've confused freedom, too. We've thought it meant unrestricted freedom to do whatever we wanted, especially around making money. So we've supported free trade agreements and financial deregulation and globalization and the free hand of the market and wound up with the mess we're in.
This kind of freedom to do what we want would be wonderful and good if we weren't so psychologically inverted. But prior to Norberto Keppe's science of psychosociopathology, this inversion was not understood. We didn't realize how dangerous we were to ourselves when we followed our desires. There were some ethical souls in history who perceived this tendency. Augustine agonized about the battle in his Confessions.
St. Paul lamented why it was so difficult to do the things he wanted while it was so easy to do the things he didn't want to do. But until Keppe brought the study of the will into science, understanding why we did wrong when we thought we wanted to do right remained a mystery. Well, it's not anymore. Keppe's discovery of the inversion of the human being driven by his envy and arrogance is a very profound discovery.
And it explains why true freedom has been so difficult to achieve, because we act against our freedom and the freedom of others constantly, albeit inconscientized.
Cláudia Baron-Hoppershaker will help us unravel the mystery of our inverted will, the spiritual danger of letting yourself go when Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns on the Stop Radio Network.
Susan Berkley: Home to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, healing through consciousness, analyzing the 1% and the conscious company.
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Our program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We have a number of programs. In fact, I think a new program coming very soon with Monene Daly-Hart and Mr. Bob Butler. They're going to do a program on women on the couch, Cláudia, which I think is really an interesting program for them to do.
We were, Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco is with us again, of course. And our Thinking with Somebody Else's Head podcasts have just passed the 460,000 download mark, Cláudia, which I think is kind of a significant number. People are listening. Over 100 countries. And I think this is great that there's a real hunger for Dr. Keppe's work out there. And I was watching, I think, the documentary that you watched, too, called The Trap.
What Happened to Our Dreams of Freedom, done by the BBC. Alan Curtis, actually, who's done a number of very influential documentaries there. And in this documentary, they were talking about our freedom and how it's been taken and usurped and taken away from us, really. And they were, throughout the first part of the documentary, I think I saw the first part or maybe the second part, it's a three-part documentary.
They had a very bleak perspective of the human being. And they were referencing a lot this scientist, John Nash, who they made the movie Beautiful Mind about him with Russell Crowe. And in it, they were talking a lot about in the 1950s, the Cold War period. They were doing a lot of work with what they called game theory, showing that paranoia and self-interest would lead to stability.
Because if no one could trust anyone else, then I would always do things expecting the worst, thinking that they were also doing the same, and this would create some sort of uneasy balance between the two. But when they tried this game theory that they were exploring a lot in the Rand Corporation to sort of fight against the Russians. When they tried this game theory on the secretaries in the office, they found out that these secretaries didn't act out of self-interest.
In fact, they cooperated, but they continued with this belief anyway. And this belief of sort of needing to develop your own selfishness, look after your own needs, This has really dominated our political, economic life since the 1950s in North America. But Dr. Keppe's view is quite different of the human being. He says that what brings stability to the person and to the society is some sort of belief, some sort of faith in God, in something bigger and something better.
And so this game theory, this sort of spreading... This selfish idea has created a situation where we're living a true fantasy away from the truth of ourselves. Were you struck by this as you were watching this documentary, too? Was this aspect what struck you, or were there other things that were important for you? I
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: have been watching some documentaries. I have watched also one about positive liberty and negative liberty, about Berlin.
This russian uh philosopher so-called so-called philosopher that um isaiah berlin right wasn't isaiah yeah yeah. And he and some
Richard: people say they he was a russian but he was born in estonia i think or lithonia i thought maybe lithonia lithuania
Cláudia: or estonia yeah. So he was of a kind of Russian family or culture origin, and he flew from the war in Russia and the Civil War. And he was absolutely against Soviet Union and all those so-called ideals of liberating from the dictatorship of the Tsars and all those nobility at the time, and the church.
And he was speaking about some kind of positive liberty and negative liberty. And this was a documentary produced by BBC in London and it seems that the English people and the British who always were like concerned with the concept of freedom and liberty And they created all these ideas, the libertarian ideas. And when William of Oaken in the Middle Ages brought the concept that the very essence of the human being was freedom and the capacity to choose the free choice.
And he started this to increase this need for freedom in human minds and in society. So this need to be liberated and to be free is present in every human being and in every society, in every system, economic, social, political system. So, Dunce Scott was also another Anglo-Saxon philosopher that wrote about the importance of the will and the will being the essence of the human being.
So, will and free choice are totally interconnected, essentially interrelated. And since we know about ourselves in history, the beginning of humanity, this struggle between power, freedom, who is dominated, who is enslaved and who is in charge of people, who are enslaving people and who are being slaved. So this concept of freedom has been struggling and struggling in everybody's minds and philosophers and so forth.
This Berlin had a similar idea as Bernays. Edward Bernays. And that if one could do and if one could have like a kind of individual freedom, that you would have your freedom and nobody would touch your freedom and you could not touch the other people's freedom of choice. And this would be the balance in society, everybody being selfish and never, never, ever thinking about the common good like an absolute of goodness for everybody.
And the guy who produced this documentary in BBC, he was asking, but what is now the gain or the advantage for United States government imposing this kind of democracy, individual democracy, individual capitalism? And what they brought in reality was not freedom for individuals, but it was freedom for speculators and investors to come, for instance, inside Iraq and take away all the richness that they had and still pay no taxes. And simply coming in and taking out all the richnesses.
So what was left there after this so-called revolution to liberate Iraqi people, this was totally, a total deception. That the people who went there, the military, just opened the doors for the millionaires and the investors, or the takers, not investors, but the takers, to steal. Totally Iraqi civilization and people. Human civilization, really. Human civilization.
Richard: So what happened is that in Iraqi, the mass is total.
It's total.
So the guy who produced this documentary, he was saying that maybe now there will be some kind of return to the old concepts that were spread in the time of national socialism and communism.
Cláudia: The Red Revolution, where people gave up the individual freedom for the common good, or they thought this would be good to have like a common good in first place, and then individuals would be benefited.
And this at the time didn't work, but now humanity might be mature enough to go back to some absolute concepts of goodness for all, for society. And I got my goosebumps all over, and I
Richard: thought, my God, they are preparing for another dictatorship. Yeah, for sure
Cláudia: they are. And I thought, my God, if humanity does not understand the concept of freedom, as Dr.
Keppe put it, there will be no freedom whatsoever. And I was reading in one of his books that, I will quote here, Jones, that the problem of the free choice and the freedom, the liberation human beings want to have is of
Richard: their will. Yeah, to have this free do whatever you
Cláudia: want. Will, and enjoy your emotions, and free the emotions, and free your will, and free your desires.
And this instinctive, or if you could say, if you could name, but not instinctive, but more, because instincts, if they are balanced, they are all same, they are all good. But emotions, and sensorialism, and this passion, the pathology, which is passion and emotion this is upside down in human in humanity.
So what we want to be free is to do what destroys us in first plane.
Richard: Could i use a small just an example because you're talking about something that's very philosophical. One of my I started about this with with my students a couple of teenagers students and I was saying let's pretend that you had an opportunity you have to study for a test test tomorrow is very important. And you come home at night all prepared to study and your family's watching a really great movie on television.
What do you want to do. And of course they said well we want to watch the movie but what would be good for you to do is very different from what we want to do. Often this is what you're you're touching on and of course a much more profound way than that example Cláudia but this shows that we have this desire inside us to go against exactly what's good
Cláudia: for us.
So what Keppe notices in his clients is that we have an inverted, upside-down way of perceiving things and mostly upside-down will. And he says, human beings want to be free to do evil, to do what is negative, which is an incongruence in itself. Yeah. Since evil in itself, pay attention.
Richard: Evil in itself.
Cláudia: Evil in itself is the biggest denial of freedom. So evil is the denial of freedom.
So if you want to be free to do what is negative, to say no, to do whatever you want, is the freedom to destroy your freedom, is the capacity or the possibility to destroy your freedom. Because freedom in metaphysical concepts, in a metaphysical way of the disinverted metaphysics of Keppe, freedom is the capacity to do and to live in goodness, beauty, and truth.
Freedom must be rational. Freedom cannot be emotional. Other than just good emotions like happiness and love but you are not free to hate to allow Your negative attitudes like laziness, like egotism, like ill intentions towards your fellow man, to betray people, to exploit, to attack. So we are not free to do this because this is in itself the denial of the true freedom.
So if a society is built upon an inverted, upside-down concept of freedom, it will not last.
Richard: No, because we will act out on that inverted idea, thinking that it's correct, and create all this mess that we're creating around the world today. And some people, I think, are doing this deliberately. I think they know exactly what they're about. Cláudia, this is fantastic. Dr.
Keppe said in his book, Liberation, that to be free is to live in harmony with reality. And then he went on to say that...
Cláudia: And to be free is to be honest, for instance.
Richard: Yes. He said that no matter how strongly we invoke our freedom, we are tragically prisoners of all the fantasy and imagination we create. We're not free because of these choices that we're making.
Cláudia: So when Keppe says here, may I continue? Yes. Keppe says here in his book, The Liberation Through Knowledge, The Age of Reason, he says here that the majority of people recognize they are exploited by other people, corporations or other beings, human beings. But they prefer to remain in the situation in order not to have a bigger knowledge, not to know, not to see in depth who he really is, how many mistakes he does, how many foolish things they do, and how much they don't understand.
They don't want to know or recognize their own wrong deeds that they produce.
And so they do a pact of alienation with the powerful, only not to understand and to see better in depth their ill intentions. So if you, for instance, give up being dependent on a job and being exploited by someone, you will have to take responsibility of your own life. And you will see how many weaknesses and ill intentions and incapacities and so many wrong things in yourself that you prefer not to do and blame other people for your ill situation, right?
So this is one thing very important. And he says here, every time mankind rebels itself against its situation of injustice, they commit so many desatinos. How do you say this in
Richard: English? Oh, boy. Like stupid things in some ways?
Cláudia: That little by little they come back to their old kind of slavery like happened in France with the French Revolution. They did so many horrible things, terror, terror.
There was the time of terror. It was so much darkness instead of light as they claimed themselves to be the Illuminati, the Illuminists, and the light ages, the ages of light. But they were totally in darkness. Reign
Richard: of
Cláudia: terror. And killing and executing so many thousands themselves in the revolution. American Revolution, Civil War. All these people that fight for their freedom and without understanding what the true concept of freedom is, they end up by turning back to another form of slavery, sometimes even worse.
And now we are being slaves of the freedom of the economic powerful. So this
Richard: is even a worse kind of slavery. You have painted such a broad picture for us that we need to come back and talk about this in more detail, which we will in just a moment on our program. On the Stop Radio Network, this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, Richard Lloyd Jones, Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, and the true concept of freedom today.
Richard: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. You know, there are many ways to dig deeper into the themes we discuss in our Stop Radio Network programs. There are books and TV and radio programs, conferences, teleclasses.
But what about this one, learning a language? That's kind of wild, isn't it? Millennium Language School in São Paulo, where I teach, incidentally, offers eight language courses using Norberto Keppe's psycholinguistic method. Yeah, we use his vast literature and scientific findings to make it easier for anyone to learn a language. It'd be a great time to tackle Portuguese, actually, with Brazil quickly becoming a prime world destination.
And you can learn online from wherever you are. So drop us a line if you'd like to learn more.
We're teaching life in eight languages. This
Susan: is the Stop Radio Network, broadcasting from São Paulo, Brazil. Back in 1986, Norberto Keppe wrote a book that predicted the worldwide economic crisis we're facing today. Liberation of the People critiques the pathology of power that lies at the base of our inverted social system and points the way out.
This is essential reading for anyone wanting to find out how we got in such a mess and how we can get out.
Richard: Our program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
We're on The Stop Radio Network talking about a very expansive view of freedom. And if I can just sort of capture what you're saying, Cláudia, or what you were saying towards the end of our first segment. If we don't pay attention to what is true freedom, and if we continue in the path of thinking that true freedom is doing everything that we want, we could be heading towards a worse dictatorship than we have been in up to now.
This is what you're saying. It could get
Cláudia: worse for us. It could not be worse. It couldn't get worse. Because now the economic powerful, the financial power, they own all the other powers. They are all handcuffed by the economic and financial powerful. Political power, medias, education, justice, everything
Richard: is under their power. Their hand, yeah. So is our pact with the powerful then this pact of agreeing that we should do whatever we want?
Is this how
Cláudia: we... Yes, and Keppe continues here in his book. If you have a good sense of observation, you will see that every person prefers to be led, to be mandada in Portuguese. Yeah,
Richard: led, exactly. To be led. Directed in some way.
Cláudia: Directed. And when they take a position of freedom, they tend to destroy what they have. They destroy their work, their company, their enterprise, and sometimes even their lives.
You have seen probably many people saying, no, now I'm fed up of being led by someone. And I'll live my life according to my own choices. Many women do this. Now I'll be free and do whatever I please. Many adolescents do this. Many, many, many do this. And when they declare a declaration of freedom of a human being, you, oh my God, you bet this guy is announcing now his own self-destruction is on the way.
And they end up by destroying themselves, drugs, alcohol, financial bankruptcy, spending much more than they can, exploiting other people, hurting other people, and this will come back to them. And having a total sexual promiscuity and destroying, ruining their relationships, their more long-lasting relationships will be destroyed. So, they will blow up their lives. If you see someone say, now I'll do whatever comes to my mind and I'll do my will.
Oh, this is a death sentence. We have an
Richard: expression, I'm going to let myself go. And what are we letting go
Cláudia: of? This is why, because our essence is not pure anymore. Our essence is all misclada.
Richard: Mixed up?
Cláudia: Mixed with this inverted will, the emotions, the inverted emotions that are there to destroy our lives.
Richard: We have this inverted will because we made choices for this along the way.
Yes.
Cláudia: And here comes something, Jones, that it's not religion. And this is something that I... I would like to mention here, and be very, um, how could I say this? Mas é uma coisa assim que é uma, é bem ousado.
Richard: Daring. You're going to dare here to say something that's not very, um, well spoken about.
Cláudia: Yes, and not well accepted. Not well accepted, not very popular.
There has
Richard: been a lot of misunderstanding and intentional misunderstandings about this. Is the
Cláudia: origin of evil.
Richard: I respect the care that you're taking to go into this because I feel there's always, when we do these programs, but there's something that's so profound in the story you're going to
Cláudia: tell. And if we are not aware of this major problem, Mr. Jones, I know,
Richard: my dear.
Cláudia: We will have difficulties to understand who is the big, big power that is even beyond the financial powers. And these big, big, big powers, They are in a level or in a dimension that our five senses don't grasp normally. Normally, we don't see this real, true manipulators of our lives, which are invisible. So, psychopathology, sociopathology, and then spirit pathology, it's something that humanity will have to take care.
You see many movies speaking about souls, spirits, demons, possessions, exorcisms,
Richard: but
Cláudia: nobody takes real care about the subject. Bad spirits, negative spirits, or so-called demons, they are in the life of every human being. They are all around here. And we being scientists of the soul, scientists of the psyche, we attend neurotic, psychotic, psychopaths, psychosomatized. We deal with the inner life of human beings.
We are not religious people. We are psychoanalysts. And we deal with this every day, even with many children. Children see a lot of those beings that are not tangible. So we have been researching on this for many, many, many decades
Richard: in a scientific way.
Cláudia: And you were going to start with sort of the origin, I think, of this inverted will, which was way back in… Since we know humanity, there is this spiritual influence that humanity accepts.
You can hear a lot about pacting with the devil, but this is not only something that people do in satanic rituals or in those clubs. Those secret societies. But this is something that every human being does every day in their own lives, in our lives.
Richard: And we have many, many, many, many, many expressions in all languages about this. Idle hands do the devil's work.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Cláudia: We have wide roads and easy life yes
Richard: but what
Cláudia: is the result. Isn't this a big deception. The devil and the demons and those spirits are the most uh inverted beings of all because they gave up every chance of sanity of balance, harmony, health, beauty, goodness. They don't have any harmony. They don't have any peace.
They don't have anything. They don't have anything. They promise a lot of things, but they don't give anything because they don't have anything.
Richard: And they reject everything.
Cláudia: And they reject everything. And if they would be given something, they would kill. They destroy because their actions are to destroy. They take pleasure, immense pleasure. Out of their envy to destroy what is good, beautiful, and truth in human beings.
And we are pacting this upside down will with these beings unknowingly. And this is something very important. This is something that does not belong to churches. This belongs to science.
Richard: Not superstition.
Cláudia: Not superstition.
Richard: It's a scientific perspective that you have discovered, especially through working with clients. Through
Cláudia: working and researching and working paranormal phenomena and diseases and illnesses. So what we have seen is that religious people took over the subject and they mistreated the subject and they were too fanatic in a way that humanity gave up.
They are fed up with this threatening that they do. You're going to hell. And you know, those guys, those spiritual evil guys, they are the accusers. So censorship and accusation is typical of demons. Now, so going back to what I said, this battle that we have between good and evil, it's not only inside of us. It's not only in social life. It's also in spiritual life.
And I want to make this very, very clear that if you don't start realizing that this is something real in your life and in the life of your beloved ones and in your government and in the whole planet, you will never, ever understand or be able to change something.
Richard: For someone who is coming from so far back, Cláudia, what are the signs that could begin to tell us that this is what's going on, that there's this spiritual battle?
How can we see this in practical ways in our lives?
Cláudia: So have you heard about the mosaic laws? From Moses? From Moses.
Richard: Mosaic laws.
Cláudia: Mosaic laws. Yes. So you see there, there are ten commandments. There's ten of them, yes. Yeah.
Richard: Most of them
Cláudia: are infringed every day. Yeah. And it's so clear. You don't kill. You shall not kill, and you do kill, and you shall not steal, but you do steal.
Everyone who takes more money than they deserve and having other people starving because some take more than they should. So this is something that is against. So this is evil. This is the wrong choice. We all lie. Like false testimony about people lying about other people to take advantage. This is a crime. This is not only a law that is against the divine, but it's not only a
Richard: divine law, but it's an energetic law.
It's a scientific law. There are many laws that are like war. How come you pretend you're doing a war in order to preserve peace? This is lunatic. This is devilish. This is a crazy, hellish idea.
Cláudia: Hellish. So this is science. This is pure science. And even Jesus Christ, when he came, he reduced the Ten Commandments to two, and they are so simple.
So simple. He said, love God beyond anyone, meaning with all your mind, your heart, and your soul. Right? Yeah. So what does it mean that loving God is loving the source of goodness, the source of life, the source of beauty, the source of freedom, the source of enjoyment, of happiness, truth, goodness, beauty? So wishing this beyond any other wish. Yep.
Richard: This is much more powerful than what I want personally, for example, to use the, what you're talking about in the first half, you know, my will, I want.
No, wait a minute. What should I be doing in this situation? Because
Cláudia: all this goodness, freedom, beauty, harmony, peace that God represents, if I choose this, I will choose this for myself as well. I will choose the true reason, the true wisdom that will benefit my life, my everyday life, my deeds, my everyday life. I will take care of my things. I will take care of my goodness, the goodness that I get.
I will appreciate the beauty in my own life and about who is around me. I will not destroy the beauty of life. So my life will be benefited. So if I choose the bigger, I'll have the lesser. You'll also have the lesser. Yeah. The first law, the second law? The
Richard: second law is love your neighbor in the same way that you love yourself.
Do unto others what you would have them do unto
Cláudia: you. But do we do this? No.
Richard: Never, ever. No.
Cláudia: So it doesn't work. And if I do want the good for my fellow man, I will have this in return. So I'll have the good for me and for the others, and for the others and for me. But if I want the good only for me, I'll fight, and the other one will do the same, and we both are ending up with nothing.
So the result will be destruction, war, envy, crime, suffering, environmental destruction, poverty. This is hell.
Richard: Well put, Cláudia. Not very comfortable to hear, but it explains why it's so incredibly difficult for anyone of good will to feel comfortable in this hellish society. And why the proposals suggested in Keppe's Liberation of the People book make so much sense. That book is one, by the way, I want to heartily recommend as offering solutions for our plight in society.
We're basing our companies and lives on the ideas he explores in that book here in Brazil.
That's our program for this time. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on the Stop Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Bye-bye for now.
