Richard Lloyd Jones: Oil and water. Cats and sweaters. Neckties and table fans. Some things just aren't made to go together. Like being given plastic cutlery at a Brazilian barbecue restaurant. They're incongruous and difficult to reconcile. Some more profound examples could include faith and doubt. Humility and self-confidence. And what about God and science? Today I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. The marriage of theology and science.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. This is a prickly subject, I'm aware of that, but I feel I would be doing a disservice to you who listen faithfully to this program if I didn't address the subject. Because there are fundamental questions to raise that can only be addressed if we wade into these uncertain waters. What is the origin of life in the universe? What is the purpose of life?
These are the questions that maybe should occupy our dinner conversations with dear friends much more than they do certainly in recent years.
And in large part, I think this is because science has split from theology and philosophy over the past 500 years or so, culminating in our 20th century position that there's no way to marry science and theology. Science has become a strictly materialistic pursuit, perfectly represented in Einstein's famous formula, the most famous of the 20th century, that E equals mc squared. No material, no energy is the inevitable conclusion of this equation, making Einstein's proposal one of the most materialistic theories in the history of science.
And it's difficult to distill spirituality from the quantum physics camp to parallel realities, alternate universes, unlimited realities awaiting your choice to come into being. How to make sense of that in any practical way? I watched What the Bleep Do We Know a couple of times and couldn't make head or tails out of it.
The architect's speech from Matrix Reloaded is a classic example of how confused we become by this separation of science and theology. Critics call that speech profound but confusing. And it is, too. "The first Matrix was perfect," the architect says, "flawless, sublime, a triumph equaled by its monumental failure." What does that mean? No, we need a better starting place than this, a starting place that can be found in the work of Norbert Dokepi.
His Analytical Trilogy is a re-synthesis of science with philosophy and theology that has been missing. Dokepi considers philosophy the mother of science and theology the grandmother, and it's very illuminating to look at reality through Analytical Trilogy eyes. Let's do that today. Try to bring the incredible wisdom from 5,000 years of theological and philosophical study back into science, or at least start the process of understanding that.
Keppe's books will fill out the knowledge if you're interested in more. Rich at richjonesvoice.com, if you are. One of the discoveries here at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy is the application of Keppe's disinversion of metaphysics to result in the Keppe motor. And we'll start our conversation there with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. Cláudia, how do you see the Keppe motor's importance in the consideration of bringing theology back into science.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Keppe motor is like a practical material proof about these metaphysical theses of Dr. Keppe.
Richard: Can we talk about the metaphysical thesis
Cláudia: of Dr. Keppe? Yes, sure. Because
Richard: I love this subject. We have the Keppe motor in Moscow now and being well received there by the Russians. The Keppe motor is real proof of Keppe's metaphysical theories. And
Cláudia: this is very interesting because they just came from Paris and they had a meeting in the Lycée des Arts et Métiers, which is a very, very knowledgeable, very well-known place, technological center of France.
Richard: And very practical, positivistic scientists are amazed to see how such a spiritual philosophy can produce such a practical device, which is the Keppe motor. Let's talk about the basis of this then, because it's probably not very well understood. And we're going to have a little difficult time probably explaining it in radio. But the idea being very different from traditional physics, right? Traditional physics based almost entirely on material and motion.
And Keppe
Cláudia: Motor using completely different philosophy, different theories. Can you summarize that for us quickly? Is that possible to you? Well, as Keppe puts, he disinverted metaphysics, so he disinverted physics as well. And one of the main principles he brings is that energy does not come from matter, but the other way around. Or it could be even that matter is energy, but it's a byproduct of energy, invisible energy.
Richard: Yeah, this is the primary energy, not the secondary energy of electromagnetic energy. So maybe we should talk about this primary energy. What is this? How do we understand this? How are you seeing this?
Cláudia: It's an energy coming from space. The whole universe has it. And according to Keppe and his thesis, this energy is a kind of divine energy coming from God, which must be the first source that is producing or giving or offering freely an enormous amount of power.
And not an electric power or destructive power, dangerous power, but it's a soft, natural, in terms of possibilities of produce, movement and work.
Richard: And as I understand it, this divine energy, essential energy, coming from God, is what then...
Cláudia: And no motors can identify or measure this energy. Keppe was able to find a means to capture the energy and transform it in movement, for instance, as the Keppe motor does.
Richard: There's no way we're going to be able to describe this on a radio program.
Cláudia: No, and I'm not entitled to do
Richard: that because I'm not an engineer. So much less am I able
Cláudia: to. What we know is some notions about the theory that Keppe developed. And
Richard: this idea then, the theory is that there's this divine energy, essential energy originating from God, which then moves into two areas.
It creates from this essential energy matter and this secondary energy of electromagnetic energy.
Cláudia: Well, it creates many levels of vibration, and depending on the vibrational status of this energy, then you find this kind of elements of creation or the universe, starting from, even from invisible creatures or beings, which are also not necessarily tested in physical motors. But it has been already captured a lot through cameras and pictures and radio.
You can many times capture this kind of invisible energy coming from this spiritual world, as you say, spiritual beings. Invisible, like non-material bodies. And then, depending on the degree of vibration of the being, then you have, in a lower scale, you have a man, like a human being, which is composed by this kind of energy, which is double manifested in a double way.
Or two
Richard: in tandem, always.
Cláudia: Not separated. We have the tendency to explain double, but we are not double. And this is a Cartesian mistake, a big mistake in Cartesian platonic concepts. That we are, even Aristotelic concepts, that we would be like body and soul, like two kind of elements. Separate elements. And that are interconnected, but they
Richard: are separate. In reality, Keppe says that
Cláudia: we are just one energy, which manifests also in the physical material realm, like we are just one in one vibration.
Richard: We have a new friend joining us. I thought I'd just introduce him and bring him in. He may not have anything to ask at this point, but I want to make sure that people listening understand. A new American friend has joined us from the Chicago area, Bob Butler. Just say hi, Bob. You can just, hello. What a voice. Hello.
Cláudia: He has a beautiful voice, by the
Richard: way.
Absolutely beautiful voice.
Cláudia: Yeah. And he came down to Brazil, to São Paulo, to train himself in Analytical Trilogy because he has the intention in going back to the United States, bring some contribution to his fellow man, to Americans, to people there about this new science, this trilogical science that he's studying and learning and progressing.
Richard: And I'll do a podcast with Bob about his experience here in the future.
But I just want to introduce you, Bob. If you ever have any question to pop in with, just feel free to do that.
But I wanted to say,
Cláudia: Cláudia, that we were having a very interesting conversation on the beach a couple of weeks ago. "Yeah, I remember."
Richard: And as I was walking down the beach talking with you... The history of theology, really, and Keppe's view of this and your understanding of it. I was watching other people walking down the beach and wondering, I wonder what they're talking about, because we're having this incredible conversation about the history of theology and philosophy.
And you said something kind of fundamental. You said, "look at all of the knowledge that we've lost because we cut a theological perspective from our scientific view." I'd love you to talk a little bit about
Cláudia: that. And it's interesting because Auguste Comte, that philosopher, French, who started with positivism, he saw humanity in three phases.
The first phase theological, the second philosophical, and the third scientific. This is the same classification of Keppe and of Giacchino di Fiori, who is a talent theologian of the middle age. And they had this notion of this Trinitarian organization of history. So history was then organized in three major phases. Now, Capi and De Fiori, for instance, they see the first phase as the most important one, the theological phase, most like in a higher level phase of knowledge.
Even though many of those information they brought to humanity was like revealed to them through intuition or through a personal direct contact with spiritual beings or God himself. So, positivistic people question this kind of communication. But the information they brought to humanity was incredibly important, was the basis for all. Like Moses, the information that he brought, the instructions he brought, were the most important, essential ones.
If they would have been followed, we would not have this chaos in the world at the moment. But this incredibly advanced knowledge of theology and the theologians, this should be added to the philosophy or the philosophical phase, which came mostly with Christianity. So all this understanding of theology and philosophy, this was not something just to throw out and start all over again because this materialistic approach of science, it's very poor in terms of philosophy and theology.
For millenniums, all humanity was bringing incredible, intelligent contributions of some wise men and philosophers and heroes and thinkers and even scientists, physicians. Physicians in the Middle Ages, they were much more advanced than present-day physicians. They were all theological. So all this knowledge that was brought and was a very rich experience of people was just thrown away, especially in the late 19th century and 20th century, when the materialistic science took the power of very dogmatic, opinionated kind of behavior.
So, taking away the philosophical, metaphysical and theological aspects of science, science was like a deviation from this main road that humanity was developing. So, when we were reaching a peak of development in the late 18th and 19th century, then humanity just took a detour, a dead-end detour. A dead-end detour. And now we are arriving to the end of this detour. And
Richard: what have we lost, Cláudia?
Because it's very clear to me that the materialistic view that we have is very, very incomplete. I mean, I'm not a scientist, and I can perceive the limitations of that. It's very obvious. But what are some of the things that we've lost in this cut that happened between science and philosophy, theology that you're describing?
Cláudia: Well, if we speak very, very simply and openly, we just gave up ethics, aesthetics, the humanitarian or, as they say, invisible world, which is the most powerful.
The soul of society and man was lost. So everything that is more powerful in in us, which is this invisible dimension, we we could name that we are 70 percent invisible energy and maybe 30 percent corporeal energy. So we are much more invisible beings than visible in terms of energy. And And everything that is manifested physically is a manifestation of the invisible energy.
So what is going wrong in our invisible dimension is manifested in the physical dimension. So if we are like decaying or if you have a problem in terms of this invisible energy, it will rapidly manifest in our bodies as a symptom, as a manifestation. So we lost the most powerful and rich dimension of humanity. And as Keppe puts, we are ourselves motors, we are like accumulators or we can grasp this energy and pass it to the world and apply it constructively.
But if we deny it, then we lose an enormous amount of power, of knowledge and development because we deny what we have of the most precious thing we deny. And
Richard: this, I think, is one of the things that's very powerful about the Keppe motor because it's in a physical way showing that there is this other energy that we can capture. And so if that's true, that we're not just material, motors are not just material, then this has enormous implications for us as people, too.
And we look at how we're destroying the material of the planet because of this materialism.
Cláudia: You want to see something according to theological concepts. I know that the Catholic Orthodox Church, which is mostly in Russia and in some other eastern European countries, very, very powerful there, they have a notion that God has inherent to his being the divine energy.
And this divine energy is what he uses to communicate and to interact with the universe and human beings. So if everybody would have considered this as a reality, they would have researched more in this area. And that's what Keppe did. And not saying that he started from theological concepts, but he always respected and considered theological concepts in his science. And through science and adding to theology and philosophy, he was able to see in a longer distance, like a dwarf in the shoulders of a giant would see even further.
Richard: So, that's what he did. And he saw that there is this spiritual dimension that we have inside that captures, has the potential to capture this more sophisticated,
Cláudia: more vibrational,
Richard: higher
Cláudia: vibrational energy.
Richard: And this
Cláudia: is what brings us health, but not just health. It brings creativity, ideas.
Knowledge. Knowledge.
Yeah.
Richard: And by cutting from this with the positivistic...
Cláudia: We became a stupid civilization. That we are in a dead-end civilization. No ethics, no nothing. No even knowing how to deal with the matter. Matter is like being destroyed by us. And not being correctly used. We are destroying, attacking nature. And
Richard: I feel this oil spill we're seeing now in the Gulf of Mexico is kind of like a continuing signal to us that we've reached the end.
We cannot go further. In this materialistic view, that we have to make a change. We have to return to the thinking we had hundreds of years ago. Now,
Cláudia: you know, very practically, how Keppe, as a psychoanalyst, got to the understanding of energy as by, like, two currents or two components, that all vibrational energy or all energy is dual. It's
Richard: not action-reaction.
No,
Cláudia: it's dual, but not one against the other. Action and complementation.
Richard: Yeah,
Cláudia: complementation. So studying the human being or attending patients, he always dealt with the inner self, with the inner life, with the psychological life. Non-material. He never used drugs. He never used anything material to treat his clients other than dialogue, other than intuition, telepathic communication, like psychological communication. Psychological treatment, purely, purely psychological, even not social, but mostly, mostly the inner life.
Keppe was the psychologist or psychoanalyst per excellence because he never... Treated his patients using anything physical or anything even social, because he does really a psychotherapy oriented to the inner life of the man, the human being. So, by doing so, he was able to heal, like spontaneously heal, through this working with this energetic level, psychological, he was able to heal diseases that were considered terminal diseases or incurable diseases, chronic diseases.
And so, going further in this direction, he realized how powerful the human mind was. That this energy was even able to correct DNA mistakes, chromosomes, just through dialogue, just through consciousness. That consciousness was an incredibly powerful tool. And then, studying more in the being and the principles of the metaphysical principles of the ancient Greeks and philosophers and even theology, he got to this understanding that we are like, we are double, like we are feeling and reason, that is love and reason that must come together.
We have two sides of the brain that must be in harmony. So he was able to apply, disinverted, disinverting metaphysics, he was able to apply all this this inversion to psychology, psychoanalysis, neurosis, psychosis, physical organic diseases, social diseases, scientific diseases, as we could name them, like the diseases in science, the mistakes in science.
Economy. Economy. So he was going further and further, and it is as if he discovered a key, a central master, a key to open doors, and this feeds all doors in civilization to see the the basic mistakes of each field. And he got to physics and so by his and applying his theories two engineers were able to apply this to mechanics and to electronics, and here the motor came and the capture of this new principle, or the principle of capturing this essential energy, free energy, has been developed.
And it must be much more developed because they have all this new field in front of them which must be developed still, like more powerful motors and other applications. There is a total new world in front of us to be developed. And you
Richard: can stay up to speed on any of the monumental developments through our Trilogy portal at trilogia.ws.
That's T-R-I-L-O-G-I-A dot W-S. And do let me know if I could be of any other help to you in your search. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Talk to you next time.
