Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: So there are, then, good and evil beings in the spiritual level with intelligence, choices, and will, and they can and they do communicate with us.
Now, the Stop Radio Network presents another episode in our continuing series on therapeutic theology with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco and Richard Lloyd Jones. Tell
Richard Lloyd Jones: us about your studies into this area now, Cláudia, because you and Dr. Keppe have been very at the vanguard.
Of looking at the demonology and the... So
Cláudia: following this reasoning that Keppe had, he started to perceive that most of the torments, neurosis, psychosis, even organic illnesses, they were connected to this torments in this spiritual dimension of the beings, his clients. So his clients, when they manifested a bigger connection with this evil, negative, spiritual experiences, they had a bigger chance to develop what we usually call psychosis, neurosis, and all these symptoms like obsessive-compulsive behaviors, panic attacks, and so on and so forth.
Richard: You mean unresolved connection with this spiritual life, right? Not that we shouldn't have connection with it. No, absolutely. Yeah,
Cláudia: yeah. If they were too dominated by these kind of beings, unseen or non-material beings. So he started to dedicate himself more on this area. And so we did. And we thought why for so many centuries and in all the civilizations they always consider the existence of these evil beings.
Not only the christians but also the jewish, the islamic, the buddhistic. All these people they understand and they they have as a as a as a evidence...
Richard: Native peoples to traditional
Cláudia: peoples. It's a millenar knowledge that was swept away by some materialistic, rationalistic kind of European so-called scientists. And they started this reductionistic kind of scientific philosophy that only what you can touch, feel and smell with your five senses is real.
Now, this is even interesting because psychotic people, as they are called psychotic people, they can smell and they can see as if they were using the five senses. This is very interesting. But going back...
Richard: See things that they can't see, that nobody else can see.
Cláudia: We thought, Keppe thought, why should I not listen to what our clients come and say? Why should I consider this all as delusional, fictitious kind of speech?
Why shouldn't we consider this as something real? And then he started to listen to them and to be like, listen seriously and take them seriously. You know, the results were so promising, so liberating for those clients, for those patients. Results
Richard: in terms of cure for them. Cure.
Cláudia: Resolving issues. Yes. Sorting, like leaving crisis behind and healing diseases and getting back to normal lives.
And sometimes I quote here, Dr.
Keppe once saw a patient that was considered a schizophrenic by his doctors. And he understood he was a dog and he behaved like a dog and he barked and he walked on
Richard: his hands and knees
Cláudia: and Keppe approached this as a spiritual problem and now he is a professor at the University of São Paulo. He came back to his normality. Incredible. Yeah.
Yeah. And I would
Richard: think, Cláudia, that some of these issues that people deal with can be even generational, can't they? They can be like from a family pattern, a family, which I
think is interesting because
Richard: sometimes we feel things. In my family, we have a lot of anxiety. You know, people can feel anxious in my family. I can see that. And it's like a family.
We're not the only family that has this, but you can see that this kind of fear that comes up is very present in members of my family.
So this is a generational thing.
Cláudia: Yes, it is. We have so much to talk, Richard, so much.
Richard: It's like opening a new universe. A universe of the spirits.
Cláudia: It's incredible what we can discover through these studies. So going a little bit further and thinking how then are these communications, what these communications can be, like positive ones, inspirational ones in the good sense, deceptful in some other senses, and painful in other senses.
So there are levels or qualities, these communications, you can see quality in them. They can be good and they can be evil. They can be inspirational, bringing you to development and health and balance and flourishment. And they can be crippling experiences.
Richard: Yes, you see this.
Cláudia: So there are then good and evil beings in the spiritual level. There are angels. The angels can be seen as persons with intelligence, with choices and will and communications.
They are conscious beings, intelligent. They have will. And they can and they do communicate with us through our neurons, mostly. They don't come to our ears, physical, but they come directly to our brain. So we hear them in our brains. In our head, yeah. We
Richard: see them, we
Cláudia: hear them, and we can talk to them. We make a dialogue many times to those beings, even not understanding that we are not dialoguing Dialoguing with our own mind, that we are not alone with our ideas, but we are in a spiritual transcendental dialogue.
So this is unconscious for most of humanity, and this is really dangerous. Yeah. Because people can be deceived, and they are deceived. So when we understood that those angels can be evil, We go back to this ancient knowledge about demons, Satan, Lucifer, and devils.
Richard: The fall of
Cláudia: man, the Adam and Eve in the garden.
Yes, and we go back to this and we think, oh gosh, this is true. This is scientifically seen as truth when we deal with psychology. Psychology is a science. Psychoanalysis is a science. Through
Richard: treating the patients, you realize the
Cláudia: reality of that world. Yes, absolutely true. So that people can imitate animals when they get too much involved with those negative angels or evil angels or these beings they can imitate or through their attitudes and actions they are more similar to animals and to beasts than to true human beings.
Richard: Look, I'd like to talk about, we won't do it in this program, I think it's not the scope of this program, but I would like to, in our next program, talk about the fall of man, what that was in reality. But I
want to come back a
Cláudia: little bit to your studies that you and Dr. Keppe particularly did in the United States and here in Brazil as well.
So at this point, it was around the beginning of the 80s. In the beginning of the 80s, we had some research groups in our institute. We had psychologists, psychoanalysts, and laypeople that were interested in studying psychoanalysis and so integrated these studies in our psychoanalytical society. We went to psychiatric hospitals, we went to those spiritist centers, we went to regular hospitals, we researched on drug-addicted people, alcoholics, so we had more data.
And even we were able to record some things that were not audible like in the presence of
Richard: like... You heard them later listening back to the
Cláudia: recording. The recording because the tapes and those times... We're magnetic
Richard: tapes. And these spirits, they usually manifest themselves
Cláudia: in magnetic kind of instruments.
Richard: I wonder if it wouldn't happen with digital equipment then.
Maybe we wouldn't capture the same thing with digital
Cláudia: equipment. Maybe, maybe. Maybe they can. But
Richard: I know that magnetic
Cláudia: tapes, they say they do because those spirits, they act a lot in digital things. Things, the evil ones, mostly, in electrical devices. The evil ones, the disturbed ones, they generally manifest themselves in electrical devices. And the good ones in magnetic devices. And this we have to explain later on when we enter the fields of physics, the physics, Neutrons, electrons, protons, because those beings, they are also magnetic beings or electrical beings.
Richard: There's our next show, too. But tell me about these studies. After going to these mental institutions, talking with the people who were having under psychiatric help.
Cláudia: So we had such an amount of rich, rich material. We thought, oh, my God, we need to bring this to the knowledge of people.
So, we organized a symposium here in São Paulo in 1983. We had 800 participants. Wow. And there we started the first symposium on demonology considered under a scientific view, approach. People thought we were a kind of exorcists at the time, but we weren't. We are psychoanalysts, but we cannot say that this is not a kind of exorcism. Why? Let me tell you why.
This is a big, a huge difference between what Keppe understands and what exorcists understand. And then we will, in
the next show, probably
Cláudia: talk about the experience we had with the most famous exorcist ever, Malachi Martin, in New York. And also an interesting author, Scott Peck.
Richard: Peck. Scott Peck.
Cláudia: M. Scott Peck. Yes, People of the Lie and
Richard: other books.
Cláudia: So we had very interesting experiences with them in New York City in 1983, 1984, when we brought our symposium to United States.
But now I want to say that a big difference between Keppe and the traditional exorcist is one major. Exorcists understand that there are psychosis or psychopathological manifestations and there are possessions, spiritual possessions, like demonic possessions. And they don't have anything to do with each other. And they're different. And that you must differentiate among those two.
Richard: Yeah, they talk about psychological and spiritual.
They make
Cláudia: a distinction, direct distinction between them. And Keppe doesn't
Richard: do.
Cláudia: What he realized in his researches is that there is no difference between any sort of disturbance, illness, Be it physical, be it psychological, spiritual, they are all under the influence of these evil beings. And our own evil spirituality, which melts with those spirits.
Richard: Melts, it joins with them. Yes,
Cláudia: yes, yes, yes.
The resonance factor that you've talked about. Yes, we are kind of identified, we are under their influence, we are following them. Because of our own pathologies, our own weaknesses, our own problems, you know. We have our sins, as the religious say. We have our addictions, our inversions, our
Richard: neuroses
Cláudia: in terms of our pathologies, our personal pathologies. So we get more or less connected to those beings in resonance according to our own pathologies.
Richard: We're all under the influence.
Cláudia: And all laws, all institutions in the world, all have some sort, bigger or lesser, sort of influence of those intelligences. Great. Those intelligences. May they be good, godly, divine, or evil, Luciferian and satanic. You
have been listening to Therapeutic Theology, our continuing series produced at the Keppe and Pacheco Triological College in São Paulo, Brazil, and featured regularly on the Stop Radio Network.
