Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: We can come to this comparing the attitudes of the psychotic and the psychopaths with evil and Lucifer.
Richard Lloyd Jones: Now, the Stop Radio Network presents another episode in our continuing series on therapeutic theology with Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco and Richard Lloyd Jones. In Dr. Keppe's book, Psychotherapy and Exorcism, which we've just finished translating into English, he says "man's first mistake comes when he denies that the planet is dominated by demons." So let's maybe look at that. Because when I read these studies of these academics saying that the belief in demons and evil spirits is harmful to your health, I think there's the great reason that Lucifer can still continue to operate here is because we don't believe in him.
We don't believe in this idea of personified evil. We believe evil is just oh it's a random thing that happens. We don't have this idea of the spiritual influence in our physical world.
Cláudia: Yes these beings are beings. They are intelligent. They have their like will. But they are upside down. They are upside down in their will, their will. It's inverted. Inverted, yes. Inverted. And this inversion puts everything upside down. And everyone and humanity has been following his inspirations. And all of us live upside down, with upside down values, inverted values, inverted feelings, inverted perceptions. We are really upside down. So we are not heading to fulfillment, to health and joy. We are heading to self-annihilation, self-destruction.
And this is so clear in the planet. My God, everything, all the laws, the laws are all upside down. Most of the laws are upside down. And our values are upside down and attitudes and rejections and, you know, perceptions.
Richard: Our destruction of nature. It's so clear, isn't it, that we have a real attitude against.
Cláudia: And something that we are doing now here, Richard, with our students, it's to orient them to research more about inversion, the psychosocial inversion applied to many, many, many, many fields. Because this inversion you can see in communication, in media, in marketing, in economy, in concepts of work.
Richard: Even in religion, spirituality.
Cláudia: Religion, spirituality, psychology. Health. Health, medicine. Relationships. Everything is upside down.
Richard: Yeah.
Cláudia: So I want to put this very much clear in practice and perceiving the relation between the source of inversion. There is this study about Lucifer and Satan, and they call him the inverted one, the upside-down being.
Richard: Who does that?
Cláudia: Many, many researchers and theologians. And there is this Satanic Bible created by Anton LaVey, the creator of Satanic Church. And the Satanic Bible, it's all the principles of God put upside down, inverted. So all the wishes that are upside down, they come from this inspiration, the source of this attitude. Let's call this guy like a maniac in his attitude. Yeah, insane. Eternal maniac. Yes, and Keppe stresses this. He is the crazy angel.
Richard: He's the craziest one in the universe.
Cláudia: The craziest, the psychotic, psychopath, because he could be intelligent and loving being, but denying, he made himself a sick angel. A monster. A psychotic angel. And human beings do this too, imitating Lucifer. We can come to this comparing the attitudes of the psychotic and the psychopaths with evil and Lucifer. Sure.
Richard: But what I wanted to come to was the first point you gave me for our program today, which is the principles of exorcism through consciousness, which is Dr. Keppe's work. And he talks about it as being an exorcism, that all the human beings and the planet need an exorcism in this sense of understanding.
Cláudia: A global world exorcism.
Richard: Yeah, to understand what it is that's going on so that we can begin to disinvert and come back to being true human beings. You say that the major weapon against the demons is this consciousness of psychosocial spiritual inversion.
Cláudia: Yes.
Richard: That a human being can only be possessed or obsessed because of our psychosocial spiritual pathology. Meaning it's like an act of will. We choose in some way. So let's start with that.
Cláudia: So nobody would accept and admit that they are choosing Satan. Only those who go to satanic masses, but the majority, the vast majority of people will say, My God, I will never, ever accept Lucifer. I'm not a Lucifer's follower, but we are. And this is totally unconscious.
Richard: We are without perceiving it.
Cláudia: Yes, this is totally unconscious. And something that Keppe puts to the exorcists, which is very embarrassing for the exorcism itself, is that exorcists come to the exorcised and they treat the exorcised, the possessed, as a victim, 100% victim. Yes. And saying, go away, go away, live alone, this poor victim. But they don't realize that there was a moment, or many moments in the lives of the possessed, that they opened the doors, and they accepted Lucifer and the demons, and they even enjoyed demons' suggestions and influences.
So when we speak about sin, for instance, we enter here in the field of pathology, as we name it. Sin and pathology for us is the same thing. So there are many, many, many sins that human beings enjoy very much. They enjoy very much. They take tremendous pleasure. They are not victims. They take pleasure, and they don't want to lose this pleasure. They don't want to be without this chance to have this pleasure. But they think it's harmless. But they think it's harmless.
Or just harm a little bit, harming the health, and I'm going to die anyway. Or there is not such a thing as hell and purgatory and heaven. This is just a metaphor. So they don't realize that pathology and sin are very dangerous. Because when we accept the suggestions, we are opening doors for demons to enter in our, like it's, we are like homes. They enter in our bodies, physical and psychological bodies, our beings. They are invaded, infested by these energies, which are not willing to go away because they suck our energy.
They need our energy. They want to stay here in us.
Richard: I had a friend who was dying of cancer, and I remember she was in the hospice. I remember saying to her, "why don't you now, at the end of your life, stop smoking?" And she said, "oh, don't take away my pleasure." Yeah. It's like this, in a sense, I see it.
Cláudia: And smoking is a door, just a door, just a small door. Smoking is just a small sign that demons dominated her. And most of the pleasures we take are not even from flesh, as they say. They see the flesh to be blamed. They see the body as sinful. Our bodies are victims from our psychological inversions. We destroy our bodies. Our bodies are natural. They are from God directly. But our minds are upside down and we hurt our bodies. So before she started to smoke, there were many areas in her emotions, intentions, attitudes that were upside down, that were evil, were not good.
Like we have so much, so many. Oh, my gosh. Envious thoughts. Yes. Being lazy. Being lazy, being egotistic, being self-centered, being gossiping, intriguing, enjoying the bed of others and the suffering of others. There is this pride which is so tremendous in us. We are the owners of the truth. So, we have so many areas that we synchronize with the demons, and by doing so, Our energies get all distorted and our energy is getting distorted. Our brain doesn't work anymore. Our organs don't work anymore.
Our bloods are full of negative and distorted energies and blocking energies, blockage of energies. So in the mind of psychotic, full areas of the brain are totally energetically blocked. So demons block our energy.
Richard: Now, you're saying something that most people have never thought of before, that if I am lazy, I am in some way linking with a really bad spiritual energy. And there is a being.
Cláudia: There are beings around us.
Richard: This is a whole new idea, Cláudia.
Cláudia: Well, it's new and it's old. It's very old.
Richard: It's new to our modern world.
Cláudia: Yes, it's new to science, if we say that. But it's true because we deal with sickness for Dr. Keppe for around 60 years and myself around 40 years, seeing patients every day in hospitals and in our clinic. And we understand a lot about suffering and illness, mental, emotional, physical, and social illnesses. And we see, yes, there is, yes, a very truthful, real, tangible, you can observe, like it's comprovável. Provable. Provable presence of these beings in our lives. Yes. Lucky those who see this.
Lucky those who can hear them. Unlucky those who follow them without acknowledging unconsciously.
Richard: Yeah. There are sayings that we have that show this. You know, there's a saying in English, idle hands do the devil's work.
Cláudia: Yes, there is even an opera and a ballad. Beautiful.
Richard: About this. Yeah. So we understand somehow in our ancient wisdom, but this has been dismissed in our modern, so-called modern world.
Cláudia: And it became totally unconscious. Yes. When Freud spoke about unconscious and the unconscious leading us to negativity and to destruction, when Freud noticed this strange pulse towards death and sickness, he saw it in our instincts, in our nature.
Richard: As a natural part of the human being.
Cláudia: And not coming from the psyche, from the soul, from the mind. And then being unconscious. You can observe this in little babies as Melanie Klein did in her research. She was a, oh my God, she was really a huge scientist. Brilliant. Melanie Klein, a psychoanalyst. And he got very near this concept, and she even quoted Lucifer in her writings, because she spoke about envy, she spoke about projective identification, which is this projecting the evil inside in other people that are good, for instance.
Other countries. And she mentioned that babies are born with these tendencies. And this coincides with this concept of theology that we are born with a tendency to evil. We have a tendency. We are born in image of God, meaning we are born with everything beautiful, truth, and good in our structure. But we have this tendency. And it can be bigger or lesser depending on our choices. And this is a mystery. This is a mystery.
Richard: So we are starting very slowly just to start to introduce the idea that these demons exist. But I think in our next program we need to get into this.
Cláudia: And how can you observe this in babies and little children?
Richard: Well, babies, they start to cry. They bite their mother's breast. They get furious for no reason.
Cláudia: They cry with an anger that you think, how come such a small being, a little baby, can be so hateful, so hateful, and dominate a house, mom, dad, brother, sisters, with his anger.
Richard: Yeah, these temper tantrums that babies have are really something.
Cláudia: Yeah. And people say, "oh, this is natural. They have colics. They are hungry." But it's the fury that comes within already. Yeah.
Richard: The desire to say no, to do what's wrong.
Cláudia: Yes. Like when a mother says, "go to bed now. You are tired. Go to bed. You need to sleep." A scandal. "Eat your vegetables." Yes, and you need to study.
Richard: My brother got a bigger piece of pie than I did.
Cláudia: "Brush your teeth, go to bath. You are smelling so bad now. Please go to bath." And they are really, really having pleasure to attack. Bullying, like bullying. Bullying is a total, incredible example of being Luciferian. Yeah.
Richard: Kids refusing to do what they're supposed to do.
Cláudia: And they have the pleasure to destroy their friends.
Richard: Kids love to be cruel.
Cláudia: Cruel. They're cruel. Yeah. And they can kill.
Richard: Yes.
Cláudia: When I was in England working there, there was a belief at that time among many, many, many clients and people that boys at seven, age seven, were very demonic. And I thought, why not girls, too? And why not other ages, too? But it seems that boys at seven, they express this Luciferian attitude very openly. And there was a time when brothers killed their siblings. Yeah, younger siblings. Yeah. And take pleasure. They take pleasure. Yeah.
