Richard Lloyd Jones: Hello once again. Richard Lloyd Jones with you for another edition of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're on the Positive World Radio Network at pwrnradio.com and available as well on iTunes. A lot of people find us there, but we're very happy to be associated with PWRN as well.
As I'm producing this, we are smack in the middle of Carnival down here in Brazil.
A good friend of mine told me today, that Carnival beer sales account for like 80% of the beer sales for the year down here. And with that much beer, you can imagine the loosening of the moral code that takes place. Promiscuity is like a rite of passage at Carnival, which makes it an event that people love or hate, and makes the ritual dance between men and women a topic worthy of attention.
The main topic when men get together is often women and vice versa, but I don't know that there's all that much understanding. Women don't get men, men don't get women. We'll try to make some sense of it all today. Women and men on the couch today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. You know, I've had a lot of students here at our Millennium Language School where we use Norberto Keppe's psychosocial science to help students learn languages faster and easier.
We're able to get to the source of difficulties and learning blocks in an incredibly deep way with this science. Many times we have resistances to learning that we're not aware of. We've inconscientized some deep attitudes against our own development that need to be understood if we want to learn. Our work in this educational area, like any work linked to Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy, is far ahead of most approaches on our planet today.
Anyway, one of the topics my students most want to understand beyond how to use the prepositions in, at, and on, which you may not realize causes students of English as a second language conniption fits, is how to understand what goes on in their relationships. Most are quite simply lost when trying to understand what went wrong or how to make them work or why can't I understand what she or he wants.
I tell them the same thing I'll tell you. Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco's book, Women on the Couch, An Analysis of Women's Psychopathology, is a must-read. It gives us a view of the psychological and sociological problems suffered by both men and women that impede us from having strong, meaningful, and rewarding relationships.
We're going to go deeper into the issue today with one of the world's foremost authorities on relationships, the author herself, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. I've had many conversations with Dr. Pacheco on love and relationships over the years that have enlightened many areas of this apparent minefield that is human relationships. Mostly minefields because we don't understand ourselves all that well.
We also don't see the other sex that clearly either as a result. So we, all of us feel kind of lost in trying to figure out what she really wants or why he never talks about what he feels, stuff like that. Well, our conversations are never that mundane, but they do still get at what's underneath relationships, so we arrive at a deeper understanding of them.
And as an appetizer today, I want to excerpt a short part of an interview I conducted with Dr. Pacheco maybe a year or so ago, where she addresses one of the principal problems for women in relationships. We open with a letter from a listener. Here we have a woman writing us, saying, why can't I manage to react? I'm always depressed, and I can't sort of cheer myself up with anything.
This started when my boyfriend ended the relationship of nine months, and she's wondering why she can't react, why she can't get herself back on track, I guess is how she would say it. How do we talk about this?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Well, she's showing an enormous dependence on her boyfriend, right? Because when they split, she says she can't continue living without him. Right. So what does this show in the picture, Jones?
That normally, and this can happen with women and men if they are too sick men. Normally men don't do that that much. Because men, they give much more importance to their jobs, to their work, to their accomplishments, social life. They have other interests in life. But generally women tend to give an enormous importance to a loving relationship. So what comes then in the picture that women, they idealize their boyfriends, husbands, future husbands.
So they idealize them as being all the source of all happiness, all sanity, all balance, sometimes even support, economic support. All kind of support they see coming from men. And so this emotional dependence, they are established when this idealization comes or they develop this idealized picture about the situation. And somehow, Richard, they even, we could use a word that it's not that psychoanalytical, but it expresses more or less what happens.
They suck the energy of their companions. They depend on their happiness, their wisdom, their intelligence, their beauty, their companion, their energy of living. So they need them. Women need man to live. And this is totally abnormal. This is energetically abnormal.
Richard: Living their lives through the other person, through their family, through their children, through something other
Cláudia: than their own self-realization, right? This is very interesting.
And this happens much more with women than with men. Saying, I'm all for him. She's not all for him. She wants all from him.
Richard: Right. And
Cláudia: he's not asking anything from her. He's not needing this situation. He's satisfied with his work, his friends, et cetera, et cetera. So this is something that happens every day in every country, all over the world. Universal.
Universal with all women. Women have much more pathology than it's shown in those books like Cinderella Complex, where women want to have like a prince. It's not that simple. It's not that naive. It's not that beautiful. Things are, and envy, envy, envy plays in competition, plays a big role.
Richard: Let's talk about that, Cláudia, because envy and competition, women competing with men, and this question of envy that Dr.
Keppe has developed a lot from Melanie Klein's studies, is not really well understood in our society at all. What is envy? You know, we think of envy as being, I want what that person has, but it's not this at
Cláudia: all. And in a relationship, this becomes very, very pronounced that the women want what they want, what the men have, or they want to take away what the men have in some cases.
Is this, this must work both ways, but for, we're talking about women now, let's look at this. What is women's envy of men? His beauty is something that hits me. It's, it's, it's comfortable for me. Seeing how women love him, seeing how he's admired by other women and men, seeing his success, seeing that he's happy with other people, playing and enjoying life, and sometimes enjoying being admired, enjoying flirting, and that he's taking some pleasure from life, and he's capable, he's intelligent, he's brilliant.
So sometimes your wife, your girlfriend hates this and not because she's jealous, but because your success is like and your happiness is her unhappiness. This is envy. So it's feeling bad and feeling really awful when you see that the other person is really, really, really doing well without you. And he's really, really admired and he's really successful. And sometimes even that he attracts people towards him because of his success.
And so women like men when they see men being like this in the first glance. They are like this honey being, having many bees all around.
Richard: So that man is very disputable, disputed? Yeah, okay, he's being fought over.
Cláudia: Yeah, so they want to catch that guy. But as soon as they have him, they want...
Richard: Thank
Cláudia: you. Everything to be different. Wow. He belongs only to me.
Yeah. And this never happens. Yeah. This never happens.
Richard: Is this the source of the statement that I've heard many people say, women particularly, you don't pay enough attention to the family,
Cláudia: you don't pay enough attention
Richard: to me. Is this the attempt to
Cláudia: pull back from that? Yes.
Richard: You're working all the time. Yes.
Cláudia: Yes. A lot of social acceptance. Like a vampire. Like holding or covering the The man with like a dark veil of envy.
So nobody will see his qualities, his beauty, his charm, his intelligence, whatever. His goodness many times.
Richard: His capacity. I think I'd like to address something for the men in this situation. Because I was thinking as you were speaking how many times, thinking with some remorse, How many times in my life I've changed my behavior to please, between quotes, a woman? And there must be many men like this.
Like we change ourselves because we sense that the women are not happy. They don't say anything necessarily, but they have that look, you know, that every man recognizes, that look. Without having to say a word, they communicate that this is not, now you're stepping beyond the bounds of what's acceptable. So for the men, I would like you to address that, if you could, from a woman's perspective, how to, we men have to change and that we have to be a lot stronger.
Cláudia: Because, you know, generally what happens then, if in one hand you start curbing yourself in your happiness and your charm and intelligence and your friendships and your way of, your style of life, on the other hand, if you do that, you will unconsciously or deep down blame her.
Richard: Yeah, for sure. And
Cláudia: you start like not treating her and seeing her in the same way that you used to.
So marriage goes downhill, start to corrupt, to decay. So it's not a healthy thing to be done. And generally men, destructive men, they do this because they want to destroy themselves and they want an excuse like blaming their wives to destroy their lives. So the same thing happens with women. This is, this can also happen with women when they get married with crazy guys, those domineering crazy paranoid guys that beat them up and they don't let him them work and have friends and such and such.
So this also happens with women. And in this case, these women, they put the responsibility on men to disrupt, to destroy, to throw in the basket the incredible gift they had when they were born and received a life to be, to have and to lead it as a useful human being and doing important and good and useful things for society. So they use this as an excuse just to destroy their talents and not to use them properly.
Richard: You say this as a woman, which is very helpful for men. Yeah, the same thing. Do women hate you for saying this?
Cláudia: Many times, but you know what? On the other hand, women that accept this, they start seeing that they are just, like I said, um destroying um totally the chance, the big chance to be happy in life. And nobody likes it really really deep down to be unhappy.
So if they find a way and they understand why they are being unhappy and they start using better the lives, so they they accept to pay the price to be happier and to be healthier and to be more successful. Because then uh they stop projecting so much onto men the reason of their unhappiness. But also they see that all the source of success that they expect and happiness they they want to get from men, they see that they are the ones with their inner lives and their inner talents and what they can do for themselves and with their lives.
They understand that themselves are the true source to get where they want to.
Richard: It is a fascinating subject and much more to come. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
We'll be right back. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. Richard Lloyd Jones with you. We're broadcasting weekly and you might ask, can't you guys do more programs?
Just to let you know, all our programs, all that we've ever produced, are archived on our Healing Through Consciousness site, which is a great resource for you if you want to find out more about Norberto Keppe's work. They're also available through iTunes, and that includes about 25 episodes of our radiotherapy show Healing Through Consciousness, where Cláudia and I took calls from listeners.
Remember that show, Cláudia? That was really fun to do wasn't it?
Cláudia: Really really we
Richard: have of course always available for your comments and questions at joneshealing at gmail.com. We want to open, I think, a little bit, Cláudia, into this area of maybe of inversion. Dr. Keppe's great discovery from the late 70s, which changed not only how we see the human being and our society, but changed his way of doing analysis, didn't it?
It was like a profound discovery. And I remember a famous academic in the United States saying that he considered the discovery of inversion, especially of the inverted will, to be Keppe's great contribution to the intellectual treasury of civilization. So let's look at that a little bit more, Cláudia. Inversion, this impediment that the human being has and how we see the world Upside Down.
You mentioned a couple of programs ago about how Pasteur had brought a really negative influence into medicine with this focus on vaccines and drugs and disease coming from the outside. This is one example of inversion there. But
Cláudia: I would like to focus today in one inversion which I find very, very important because it brings a lot of violence inside homes, inside families, in society.
We see many, many things being still discussed. It's the inversion about the concept of women. So woman, what is a woman? Why women have had so many problems in society since the beginning? Why women symbolize the very start of the original sin. Eve brought the original sin to the world, as quoted in the Bible. So we see in the Islamic countries, why women are so much repressed, beaten up, like killed.
Stoned to death. Stone. They don't
Richard: have rights. And they fight for
Cláudia: the rights of women all over the world. So up to now, we see many times being published the unbalance between the work, the possibilities of work between men and women, because women generally don't get as much income. They don't get paid
Richard: as many opportunities as a man. And they think that we've been led to think that this is because of the male-dominated society, right?
That women don't get these opportunities because of other things than their own problem. So
Cláudia: here we face a major, major problem, Richard, which is enrooted within every human being, man and woman, all of us. Men and women, we have problems towards what a woman symbolizes and what role a woman should play in society and why this is so problematic. So, I would like to focus this today, because we see here a major problem in the social structure, in the laws of society.
And the social structure is laid upon a major inversion.
Richard: Based upon
Cláudia: a major inversion. But also we see a major inversion inside each woman and each man about that. So let's see how Keppe sees this. Keppe quotes everything is like three, it's a triad, it's trine. And so is the dialectic between man and woman and a child, for instance, which is an imitation of God's Father, God's Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Richard: There's a spiritual corollary, a spiritual dimension as well, yes.
Cláudia: Yes. When Keppe puts this in his book, Sociopathology, he described this very, very beautifully because he made a diagram and he put there, in society and in the universe, God-father corresponding to love, goodness, and a woman, feminine aspect. God's Son as the truth, as intelligence, as reason, and corresponding to man. And the Holy Spirit corresponding to beauty, to aesthetics, and it could be the Son in the family or a society, beautiful society.
As the result of the unification between goodness, love, and truth and reason.
Richard: Between a correct union between these elements.
Cláudia: Yes. So truth needs love in order to be rational and balanced and in order to produce a beautiful result and actions in society. So, if we consider that woman is more related to the field of the feelings, love, intuition, goodness, then we can understand in a society where power of intellect, the power of muscles, force force
Richard: dominate, why a
Cláudia: society like this is so against women, because of the inversion we see in goodness, love, affection, intuition and spirituality, which is more linked to women.
And the woman mind, the woman essence is more prone to spirituality than man's. So a woman is like a link between man and God because of the intuitive and spiritual aspect and the feeling. But we are speaking here about original, the original state of... The ideal state in a way. The ideal state of a woman and a man. But what happened then was that in the beginning of the times, Lucifer came to a woman to tempt her, because he knew that if he would destroy, corrupt the basis, which is love, which is goodness, which is intuition and spirituality, if he would corrupt this, he would corrupt men and women, and he would break the link between God and humanity through women's role.
Richard: It's a terribly smart thing he did there. That's Machiavellian. And that's like
Cláudia: really... So coming to Eve, symbolically coming to Eve and suggesting Eve that being a woman, being loving, being affectionate, good and spiritual, she would serve man, she would serve God, she would serve humanity. She would serve as a basis, as the fundament. She would not be able to be seen as a goddess or to shine as she would like to shine as the best and the first and the biggest and the goddess.
Richard: She's being repressed somehow, held back.
Cláudia: So in this way, as Jesus said, being servant is the way to be the biggest and the best in my father's kingdom. But Lucifer came and suggested Eve that if she would eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge, of his knowledge, or in other terms, if he would deny her true essence, if she would not obey and serve man, children, society, and God, that she would be godlike.
She would be like a goddess. And she would have everything she had and even more. So Eve was deceived. And this was the first inversion of all. Because then Eve started to reject herself, her essence. Eve started to see in herself, in her femininity, something inferior. Being a servant, obedient, submissive to truth, to goodness and beauty. So, can you see how subtle this is?
Richard: Incredible, yes.
Cláudia: Because then, after that, women started to be the most insubmissive. Willful. Willful and not willing to serve of all creatures. And even though we don't have physical power, we have this big inversion inside of ourselves that lead us to think that being a woman is not good, is inferior. We don't want to serve. We don't want to be submissive to God, to beauty, to truth, to goodness.
So in this sense, our envy enlarged so much that we started to be very envious at man, at the freedom we thought men would have and the freedom to be man-like or to be God-like and to be adored by a man and to be served by a man and by our children and society. So even though many times we need to be slaves because of social repression, innerly we are the most insubmissive beings of the planet.
So we can be very weak, We can be very like, look like fragile, but innerly this strong reaction, I don't want to be submissive, I don't want to bend myself, I don't want to serve. And this led us to become like slaves, because this brought an incapacity to serve, to be useful, and to grow. Only
Richard: a woman could say what
Cláudia: you're saying for sure.
Richard: And even more, I'm just thinking, if I venture into this territory, I
Cláudia: wrote a book Women on the Couch and I've been hated by
Richard: many women because of this book, but I understand that the only way for us to free ourselves. Yeah, and just let me say something here, because I've read this book a number of times and I recommend it to all my friends.
Women on the Couch, by the way, has been translated into English, it's available on our Healing Through Consciousness site. And let me say that as Cláudia is speaking, I think there can be a tendency to think, oh, this is just another radical right-wing, like Camille Paglia, this right-wing.
I'm a divorced, totally independent and liberal woman.
Richard: Yeah,
exactly. Yeah. So
Richard: I just want to, it's going to take some openness to go on this journey with Cláudia, but this is a journey that we need to take, men and women, because we do not understand anything about what it means to be in a relationship.
We don't understand anything. It's incredible, isn't it? So following you on this journey is going to be a beautiful adventure. This is an extraordinary, extraordinary book. Can we come back to talk about it in a minute? I just need to take a break. So you're listening to Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. This is Richard Lloyd Jones with Dr.
Cláudia Bernhardt-Berge. Go back with our analysis of women and men in our society in just a moment. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, Richard Lloyd Jones with you.
So it's heating up already. We're heating up already, Cláudia. We're well into this now, and you said there just before the break that women haven't wanted to be, haven't wanted to submit themselves to the truth, the truth of themselves and the truth of society, and this has caused enormous ripples, repercussions in society,
Cláudia: hasn't it?
And going back a little bit to what I said in the first module, we, by essence, should be loving. Good, intuitive, spiritual, and serve. Serve mankind. And we want to be served. We want to be goddess in the lives of man, in the lives of our children, in the lives of society. And this causes a decay in our intelligence, in our capacity to work, capacity to be useful, because in order to do something meaningful in society, one must have this understanding, since we are small children, that we want to be, we need to serve others.
We need to do something that is applicable, is useful, is needed, is appreciated by other people. So if we are too envious and too arrogant and
Richard: too God-like creatures, we will be always thinking
Cláudia: how to be more beautiful, to be more appreciated, how to be more vain, to attract people for sensorial reasons, to shine better than the others. And we will not dedicate ourselves to be useful and to serve.
So this means we will want to have value for what we are, what we look, and not for just by ourselves, and not for what we do, what we accomplish. So we have so very few philosophers, very few artists of value. We have very few scientists that developed in terms of their capacities. Are
Richard: you saying there's a connection then between this fall, this narcissistic fall, envious fall from the truth of ourselves?
There's a connection between that? Yes. Totally. Connection.
Cláudia: Total connection. Wow. Because man heard that before. They know
Richard: since they are young that they
Cláudia: have to produce something in society. They're not, they don't have that beauty, that charm that women have, so they, they just say. And a lot of men come behind them if they're beautiful, if they are sexy. Now, men don't do this.
They know they have to work. They know they have to produce something useful and with value. So the main desire ideal in the life of a man is to be recognized for what you do. For what we did. Yes. And women don't generally, they want to be like appreciated for themselves, like I'm the best. I want to be loved for who I am.
I want to be loved because I am
Richard: your wife.
Cláudia: And I want to be
the goddess in your life. And I want to be the chosen one. And I be, I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a, I'm a daughter, whatever, I'm a creature, so I am, so I am, and that's it. I want to be loved for what I am. And this essentially speaking in terms of humanity, this is, this is a total inversion, because our pure essence is pure action.
So if we want to be valuable, we want, we need to do
Cláudia: pure actions. We want, we need to accomplish important things for humanity. We need to be servants, like to serve in goodness, beauty and truth, and then as a consequence we would shine. Is this
Richard: changing in society slowly? A little bit. A
Cláudia: little bit. You see for instance the case of Greta Garbo, this goddess of beauty.
She was so beautiful and so charming, but she, um, saw all her value in her body, in her physical beauty, in such an extent that she hid herself in the last years of her life because she got like old and she didn't have anything else to offer. She could not cope with that. And so are you. Women after they get married, they start to get fat, they start to get old, the wrinkles come, so many plastic surgeries, but they are not enough.
And so it's, it's, it's so depressive, it's so depressing at this situation of women. Now I would say that there are more bad consequences around this and like the violence in homes and they are present in all countries and the fighting between men and women, they are present all over. So here in Brazil for instance you can't, I, I read in, in a publication that every two days five women are killed by a man, by a boyfriend, a girlfriend, a boyfriend, or a husband, or something.
So what happens that this violence continues, this competition, this rivalry between women and men? Because
Richard: what's put forward, Cláudia, is that this aggression in society is because of the aggression of men, that we need to temper the aggression of men, which of course we need to do. Obviously, men's aggression is a very serious problem. They make the wars. But I think you're going to start to suggest that there's something behind that, that women play a role in too.
Cláudia: Yes. And this is a big problem because when you go to police stations where women go after they are beaten up, and if you go to lawyers and talk to lawyers and to psychologists, they say that the biggest problem in a situation like this sometimes is the woman because she provokes so much, the husband. It seems that they want to be bitten.
They provoke them so much. Their attitudes are to provoke violence. And sometimes if the police want to punish the husbands, they don't let them. They turn against the police. So why women do this? Why this situation in homes, creating this instability in the house with the children, creating so many effects and side effects.
Richard: But how do they provoke, Cláudia? How is it?
Because I think as I'm speaking, I'm going to think about, well, wait a minute. The women listening are provoking violence against themselves. How is this happening? How do you, in your years of experience working with men and women, how do you see this?
Cláudia: We see that instead of a bond of love and affection, most of the marriages are done with imagination, one idealizing the other one.
So, they get married and they expect the other one to bring all the happiness and fulfill their lives and be like the reason for their happiness and serve them and doing their wishes as they normally do when they are like flirting and this pre-marriage state when the romance is up. So men and women, they are very pleasant and they do everything they can to each other.
So in this situation, they imagine this will continue and be like, endure?
Richard: Yeah, we'll endure, we'll go on and on. And you see this stimulated in the songs and the films too, don't you? This idea that I'm going to find the love of my life and it's going to be happy ever after. I mean, we see this everywhere.
Cláudia: But because of this inversion, which is a psychogenetic problem in us, men and women, after they get married, they, instead of wanting to do the other one happy, they want the other one to make them happy.
Like, I want you to make me happy.
Richard: Right, and if you don't make me happy, ciao. Ciao,
Cláudia: or the fights start and the blaming and the accusations start and the projections start because you were to, you were, you should do me, make me happy. Make me happy. But now you're making me unhappy. So you are the cause of my unhappiness. So the war starts.
And in this area inside the family women generally have the biggest play because they are very much clever in dealing with subtle feelings and they manifest their revolt, their envy towards the man very subtly and they have means to do this and they are very smart. And the result is that men react with their physical power and so it's, it's inverted, it's upside down in both cases, because then the blaming and the accusation goes on and on instead of perceiving that one can only be happy through our own attitudes and through our own deeds which can be good or bad.
We
Richard: can't get that from somebody else. No. Never. And there is this big need ...to as you're talking about of pure action of trying to do something for the betterment of others and we've lost a lot of this kind of spirit, Cláudia, even in the last 50 years there was a bit more of that idea in our North American society to help others, to contribute in some way, but that's been lost almost completely in our narcissistic society, hasn't it?
Cláudia: So women think that husbands are to be blamed because they are not developed, they stopped, that they don't do what they want to do, and they blame the husbands, and they have a big envy towards their husbands, thinking that the lives their husbands have is the best of all lives. So imagination comes here, deliriums come here, and they think that husbands are happy taking, like, out of their expenses, sort of.
Not financial, but in all senses. Because they stay home, they take care of their things, the kids. So they find many, many, many excuses to say, you can be happy because I'm unhappy for you. So I take the burden for you so you can be happy. You can go out and have your women and have fun, like a delirious idea about the life of a man, because of envy.
And so they blame them.
Richard: The woman is sacrificing for the man to have a better life.
Cláudia: Yeah, but women don't want to see that they are not accomplishing because they don't want to accomplish. They sabotage their lives. They have chosen this kind of living where they would be the goddess inside the home, inside the house, and this turns up to be a hell.
So women sabotage their lives doing this.
Richard: Not men. We're okay, Cláudia. We have a couple of minutes left. This is a fascinating discussion because, you know, what we've heard, what we men have heard anyway growing up through the time of women's liberation is how we have been the oppressors. And, of course, some of that has occurred, of course. But, you know, men are trying to accomplish, to do, and women have not been so interested in doing that is what you're saying.
And this is a phenomenal discussion you're having, that women have held themselves back, not the men necessarily.
Cláudia: And women think that serving and being good and loving is being weak, inferior. So they want to imitate men in everything that is wrong, in all the arrogance, power, prestige. So if you get a woman, if you see a woman getting power to do what she wants to do, she becomes much more despotic than a man.
She can be such a tyrant, much worse than man. So, and then I would like to enter also in another subject.
Richard: So good. We'll take a perfect time to take a break. We'll do that now on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. Richard Lloyd Jones and Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco back with our discussion about women and, of course, men in just a moment.
We are looking today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head at the inversion of women, particularly this area of women thinking that to serve is somehow a burden or something that should not, is not like ideal in some way. They must teach the children this too then. Yes,
Cláudia: and they teach the children against men because they envy men and they bring an idea which is very opposite or like very contradictory to men's values.
For instance, children generally, they see their mothers as being victims and weak, and generally parents being cold, and they don't respect fathers. They don't imitate the qualities of the fathers normally, many times, many times, because of mother's influence. In fact,
Richard: if you go to any family reunion, and I ask the young men in my classes about this, I say, how many of you really know your father?
Almost none know their father. We're separated from our fathers. We're kept apart from our fathers. In family reunions, fathers are drinking beer and watching the football game, and the mothers are organizing everything in the kitchen.
Cláudia: Children never think that parents, the fathers work, what they do, what they accomplish, that many times they bring money inside the house to support the children and that life outside in society is not easy.
It's not fun. It's not a playground. It's really difficult. Now, what I want to bring into focus now is the inversion that men also have inside of themselves because men also think that being loving and affectionate and caring and tender and intuitive is something inferior. Many men think like that. So they not only despise women because of this, but they also despise their inner qualities of affection and love and goodness and tenderness.
Even of humanity sometimes, right? So humanity became male-oriented because of this huge inversion. And you see, Jesus Christ, I want to quote him many times because he's the best example of all. But Jesus was always being together with women, and he was always defending women, and some women were always serving him. And he was saying always, don't blame or throw the first stone those who never.
Richard: Let those who are without sin throw the first stone, right?
Cláudia: Yes. So he was always surrounded by women and he was always respectful and always. And when he's resurrected, he first appeared to women, to his women friends. So we see that he was totally embracing his love, his affection, his feminine qualities. And man after the fall, after this psychogenetic fall, he started to be not only enemy of the woman and, and vice versa, but also enemy of himself, because rejecting goodness, rejecting love, rejecting tenderness, rejecting the feminine in society, he mutilated himself too, because man then started to think just with one side of the brain.
And this made him sometimes like a monster.
Richard: Giving value only to reason, only to logic.
Cláudia: Physical power.
Richard: Physical power.
Cláudia: Violence. So all this, that are not male qualities, but there are distorted male qualities. Because when you miss love, when you miss affection, then you miss intuition, then all the other qualities they become distorted and
Richard: it's not true power. True power has to be linked to truth and goodness and beauty, right?
Otherwise
Cláudia: must be. So we developed an impossible society where violence comes from within homes, within the families, and it's spread all over society and humanity. Violence, envy, rivalry, competition, stupidity, lack of intelligence, lack of intuition. We created a hell and the denial of femininity was where Lucifer started this mess in this planet. And
Richard: then maybe men got thinking that well this isn't going anywhere so I'm going to be more Or in the male side of things, because his other side isn't going anywhere.
What does it mean to be a true man and a true woman then, Cláudia? What does this
Cláudia: mean, to disinvert this? You come with these objective questions. Jones, intelligence and understanding is just a small part of this huge, huge thing that is consciousness and intuition. So if you ask me what is really a woman or what a woman should look like or should be like in a man, I would say just tune with your inner self and by intuition you will have the answer.
But our listeners must know too. That's why you asked me. And that's why I'm telling you this. We
Richard: know this already. I know.
Cláudia: It's in our psychogenetics. And even though we have many denials, many problems in our psychogenetics, we still have this structure which belonged to the beginning of humanity, which was perfect, which was beautiful and truthful. So we could name some qualities that are very much related to men and women, But if we do that, we might limit it.
Yeah,
Richard: we define too much. In this life that you
Cláudia: have in Brazil, with trilogical values, do you see that much difference between a man and a woman here, inside this trilogical structure?
Richard: No, actually, now that you mention it, I don't. Women are accomplishing, doing. Men are also doing, but they're doing together. There's a sense of a higher purpose. This is a big thing, I think.
Huge sense of a higher purpose. That we're doing something to help other people, trying to live a life of service. There's no difference between...
Cláudia: And do you see how men are loving? Yes. If they are let, if they are encouraged to do so, how loving they become, how tender they can be, sometimes even more than women. So, man and woman, it seems that we are very much alike.
Very much alike. But we have some qualities that are complementary. Even though we see men being so tender with children, sometimes we see women that are not that patient with children, we see that both can be very much alike. And the more we try to be and to do and to serve God's laws, the more balanced we become and the more complementary we become.
Energetically speaking, we see that there is an enormous attraction between the male energy and the women's feminine energy. There is an enormous attraction and it seems that one complements the other. We don't understand this quite well still and we cannot explain that
Richard: what you're talking about now is a spiritual, energetic thing and what we hear in society all the time is that people, men and women are attracted because of brain chemicals and only sexual,
Cláudia: but this is not so, it's much beyond sex, it's much beyond sex, because even you can see in a working place where there are women and men working together, if they have a minimum balance, it's much better than just an environment with only women or only men.
So there is this missing of this blend of energy, this complementation of energy, which is done by the male and the feminine energies.
Richard: You know, you said something at the very beginning that's been with me ever since this conversation started, Cláudia, about service, about doing things for others. Normally, when we see relationships today, I remember a friend, a very good friend of mine, got married with a girl, and I never saw him again after that.
He completely got lost, and it seems that we isolate inside family units or relationship units to take ourselves out of society and not to put ourselves back in. And so maybe this that you're talking about, this dynamic between men and women, needs to have this higher purpose to it in order for it to to have value.
Cláudia: Imagine a world if men and women would be friends of each other.
Imagine a world where this war would not be inside each house, each home, as it is in the moment, a silent war or an open blatant war. There is a war inside inside each house, each marriage. Normally, most, the majority of couples or marriages, that's why so many people give up living with another sex and choose to be homosexuals, because they try to substitute this friction with another person of the same sex.
Because it's almost unbearable to live in society fighting and competing all the time as it is because of this unconsciousness of this problem.
Richard: Yeah, interesting. And how do we explain the incredible attraction to the grossly male figures, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone, these characters in films, aggressive, and the attraction as well to the princess, as Princess Diana or this Sarah Palin in the United States today, you know, who loves to kill animals and go hunting and, you know, these kind of gross exaggerations.
They're very popular in our society. But you have the answer. Yeah, I know the answer. So say it. Well, this is an enormous inversion. We make an enormous pact with these inverted qualities that we see without the completeness. And when we talk about service, you talked about service and you talked about the triangle at the beginning. And I sort of see maybe now as we're speaking that we have men and women on the bottom of this triangle and a higher purpose God, for example, at the peak.
We need to come together in service to something greater than ourselves. Otherwise, we're lost in all of these gross exaggerations of what it means to be a man or a woman.
Cláudia: Yes. We got deformed because we as fruits, we got apart from the tree. We got like a branch that is apart from the tree, from God, from the source of energy, from the source of happiness, from the source of balance, of richness, everything.
God is the source. So if we want to break up with him and start a new kingdom in our houses, in our homes, in a new marriage, in a new relationship, we forget about God, then we cut off with the source of energy.
Richard: Which we have done enormously. We've been talking about the last couple of programs about this spiritual cut, theological cut in science.
Our science then has become very masculine and has lost this spiritual, philosophical aspect that women can bring. So we need to make science, trilogy then, is the feminization in a way, reintroducing the true feminine qualities and the true masculine qualities back into our existence.
Cláudia: That's our hope, that people will understand this one day and we'll see how life can be much better, much more balanced, much healthier, fulfilling than it is in the moment.
Richard: What a challenging subject. Thank you for embarking on that, Cláudia. Brilliant and beautiful for all of us. JonesHealing at gmail.com. If you have comments, you want to make some comments about this or get us to discuss this more, some other areas we didn't get into today, we would love to do that.
Wonderful to be with you, and we'll talk to you next time. Bye-bye.
