Richard Lloyd Jones: From Brazil, it's Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, originating from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Very happy you've found your way to our program. We strive always to be at the leading edge of analyzing what's going on in our world, and we have the valuable tool of Norberto Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy to help us do just that.
You know, there's precious little true analysis of all that's occurring on our planet. We suffer from a compartmentalized view where we break everything down to constituent parts An attempt to understand our reality in this piecemeal way doesn't work. We need to have a starting place, some key principles as a base. Otherwise, we've become lost in opinion and theories about how things work.
That's the land of pundits and spin and academic ivory towers, where the dominant theories are those that are best promoted, not necessarily true. We're going to lay out some bases for understanding in our program today. Keppe Science is the joining together of science with philosophy and theology, and we'll bring that to the fore today in a Trilogical History of Religious Society. That's today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Lots of resources there to open up this vast science of Analytical Trilogy for you. A science that offers so many answers for our troubled world because it goes to the root of the problem and corrects the incorrect philosophies of life that we carry forward from the past that disturb our understanding of ourselves and our society and institutions.
Let us get into our program right away today with an excerpt from an interview my colleague Susan Berkley and I conducted with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco over a year ago now about power and religion. Maybe it's two years ago. This interview lays out some of the basis for understanding our world that we in the first world particularly need to listen to.
Especially with all of our modern ideas that religion and ethical codes handed down for generations are in some way old-fashioned, and law and legislation are enough to create a good society. It ain't true, Cláudia.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: It's a long time ago that the dualism capitalism and socialism is over. Now the dilemma is nationalism and new world order, and how nations are, are or peoples are trying to survive as a nation, as a culture, in opposition to a new world culture and in order.
And so we could address this in a trilogical manner, saying that like the pros and the contras of nationalism and of this new world order. And that the universal mentality should be now adopted or we should develop a more universal mentality.
Richard: We should even have the idea of having a universal mentality. Nobody
Cláudia: talks about that. So our trilogical concept of new world order would be the natural order that would be like naturally accepted.
Do
Richard: you know that was the name of one of our podcasts? I did one called The True New World Order. Really? Yeah, based on our interview that we did
Cláudia: one time. And then I did one on the new society, too, based on our discussion about the Fifth Empire. What did you do about the New World Order?
Richard: We talked about how a true society would be, exactly as you're talking
Cláudia: now.
We already did something focused on that, so we can develop that a little bit.
That would be really, really interesting. You know, one of our friends has a son who's studying in France. Studying communications, I think. And he was kicked out of the school for the day for wearing a religious symbol around his neck. Wouldn't let him go to school for that day until he took it off.
Richard: So this is incredible, isn't it? I mean, everybody's trying to protect nationalism, but everything's becoming the same. Like there's no distinction anymore between, you can't make any distinction between...
Cláudia: But this is not true, that they are protecting nationalism. No, they're not, I know. Because nationalism in France would be Christianity.
Richard: Right, exactly the point I was trying to
Cláudia: make. Any other kind of spirituality.
So the natural course in France would be Christianity.
Richard: Of course, they've had that for a thousand
Cláudia: years. Yeah, and this is how France was built. Because previously, when they described Europe, they said that there is a Christian background in Europe, in history. Europe is a civilization based on Christianity And they took this off, this mention in the bylaws of European community. This is a historical fact that most of the countries in Europe developed their history, their culture, arts, music, dance.
Richard: Even political movements.
Cláudia: Political movements, organization of cities, peoples, wars, anything.
Richard: Imperialism.
Cláudia: Philosophy. All that was done in Europe was based in Christianity. And when they took this off, the bylaws of the European community, they distorted, they did a severe censorship and distortion in the true roots of history. Monstrous act, this one, against
history. I think there's a lot of confusion. In the United States, for example, we are also a Christian country, I believe, founded on
Cláudia: universalist principles.
But there is a separation of church and state, which is how it should be. People confuse the two, right? The state can still be founded on Christian principles and be separate from the church. Yeah, of course, because Christianity has its philosophy, its ethical basis. And I think, Susan, that most of the actions against these three religions, the major religions of the world, that we see lately growing more and more against Judaism, the true Judaism, Christianity, and Islamism, it's a more an action against their ethical principles.
Because the new world order that they, they are trying to organize and to implant, and they are very much ahead in this, goes totally against this principles, philosophical and ethical principles. Like it's, it's forbidden in all three religions to charge interests or to make like living out of interests, and the new civilization is totally based in financial institutions that live on interest rates, interest rates and speculation
and exploiting
Cláudia: countries using this technique.
The banking system has its biggest profits in Brazilian-located banks, like banks that are in Brazil.
Richard: Could be from Germany, could be from Canada.
Cláudia: German banks, international banks, when they have their agencies or whatever, or headquarters in Brazil, here they get most of their profits, much, much ahead of any other country. So when they say, when we read in the newspapers here, Brazil is one of the top leading emergent countries, or everybody has its look now on Brazil.
So the first world or nations in the first world are very happy with the performance of Brazil. And Avon has its biggest profits in Brazil, first number one profits in Brazil. Could happen. And Mercedes trucks has their, or its number one profits in Brazil. It surpassed Germany far ahead. In its export also from trucks that are built in Brazil. Nestle has its third or second source of income worldwide in Brazil.
Richard: Monsanto makes its most profits around the world in
Cláudia: Brazil. So people must be very happy with Brazilian performance because we are guaranteeing the income, the profits, It's like the economic support of the first world countries. So if the crisis was not as big as it should be, as it was expected, it's because we in Brazil are working and producing richnesses and giving raw material, agricultures, all these products.
We are like giving and giving and giving for those richest nations. So we wonder what is our interest in this, what is the interest of brazilian people. Because and even in, even after doing this, the media and the politicians in the first world countries, they criticize brazil because of the, the
Richard: income gap. Yeah, the gap inequality.
Cláudia: Yeah, so rich
Richard: have so
Cláudia: much and the poor have nothing, right.
Yes, so but this inequality comes much more from the first Taking the money from Brazilian people and the poorest people in Brazil. So the distance is so big. So we see all these headlines in Brazilian newspapers, international newspapers, and everybody speaking about Brazil as the country of the future and praising its economy, but the profits don't come to our people. So we see more and more and more people starving, people being on the streets, people being left under the bridges and our streets, even São Paulo streets, are all with big holes.
The corruption of politicians is so big in Brazil that all the money we produce goes a share for them, for the politicians, and a biggest share for the multinational companies and corporations and banking. Let
Richard: me just use one example to illustrate this, Cláudia, because this is a big topic that most people who are listening to this have probably never thought about. If they have never lived in an emerging country like this, they've never given this any thought at all.
One of my students works for a big auto parts company, American auto parts company. And here in Brazil, the company is really, really doing well. But they're all being laid off here because they're having big problems at head office in the United States. So all the work, all the profits that are being generated here are actually going to support the head office there.
And my poor students are working three days a week at a 40% reduced salary with families to raise. I mean, not to have a crying towel here, but this is like what's happening.
Cláudia: They are discussing diminishing the time, like the working hours for Europeans, Americans, etc. And here they increase the working hours. Hours. And even illegally speaking, because if they don't accept this, they are out.
So they need to support their family. They need to pay the rents. So they work sometimes from Monday to Monday. They don't have even weekends. They work until 11 o'clock p.m., 12 o'clock. Sometimes they stay overnight, no overtime. So this is our reality in Brazil. So people who listen to or who are listening to our radio program, they will probably, well it's, they will think okay, so this is their choice, it's politics, it's corruption in politics in brazil, so it's their problem.
But if this is not corrected internationally and if other peoples don't start opening their eyes, they will perceive that one day will come where they will have no conditions themselves to support their lives, because this is abnormal. It's a natural thing. So Brazil cannot support all the countries in the world, and emerging countries cannot support all the other countries. So people who are in the richest countries, they are also diminishing their levels of income.
And
Richard: I think, Cláudia, they are not perceiving in the first world countries how much of their richness comes from the emerging nations. I don't think people perceive that at all. They're thinking that the benefits, their incredible way of life comes from their efforts and their work. They don't understand this.
Cláudia: But only ethical people would care about this.
Richard: That's true.
Cláudia: So
Richard: it's very sad.
Cláudia: They will think, oh, even better. So we work every day less and we get the money anyhow. Other people are working for us. But there is a natural law, not only spiritual law, ethical law, spiritual and ethical law, that these religions bring to us, to our consciousness. All these three major religions, they bring this consciousness to people. And this disturbs everybody. So, if we don't follow the natural law, which is the reciprocity law, this is abnormal, this is not natural, and this will not last forever.
So we feel already the consequences. There must be a level of like a balance between countries and nations of contribution and reciprocity and people doing what they can do, the best they can do. And also those people who work less, they waste and they lose their capacities to work and to produce. They become more and more backwatered in terms of science, in terms of being able to work, capacity to work, happiness, health.
So they are starting to deteriorate as countries and nations. Because what creates a nation, the basis of civilization, is work and good work and ethics and aesthetics and religion principles many times. So what creates a beautiful, a developed civilization with healthy individuals is this. So the development of science, for instance, depends on practice, experimentation, continuous research.
Richard: Don't go away. A Trilogical History of Religion continues in a moment on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network.
Listen, we would love to hear from you. We're getting some mail at times, but we always love more. We're happy to build a community, actually, of people who are becoming more conscious. We need to know about each other, you know, so feel free to drop me a line, joneshealing at gmail.com.
And we have a Facebook group, too. You can join us there, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head in Facebook. Well, that's some important bookkeeping I want to make sure I do from time to time just to keep you informed of how to get in touch with us. In the first block of our program today, Cláudia was talking very passionately, I think, about the situation of exploitation on our planet stemming from not following the old values and ethics that came from our religions, actually.
We dismiss those at great peril to the health of our society and ourselves. The first world exploitation she was outlining is immoral in its essence, and it's a very subtle thing too. Most don't think about it at all, but when you travel a little then you, you can understand a little bit more what's going on there. Maybe a perfect launching off point for you Cláudia here in the second part of our program, for our theme of our program today, our show, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, today on the Positive World Radio Network, A Trilogical History of Religion.
Hello, Richard. Hello, Cláudia. Did I talk too much in
Cláudia: the beginning? Hello, listeners, radio listeners. Yes. I was wondering while you were talking, and I was remembering some of the writings of Malachi Martin again because I consider Malachi Martin as a very respectful theologian of the 21st.
Richard: Well, he was the 20th century. Yeah, but
Cláudia: he will probably be recognized in
Richard: the 21st century.
Malachi Martin, the Irish priest who worked with three popes at least, wrote a number of books too about religious themes.
Cláudia: Yeah. And his writings about the Vatican and the church are very much like Dr. Keppe's view of what happened to Christianity and to Catholic Church. But Keppe expands his view in a more scientific approach. And also he speaks about all organized religions and not only Catholic Church.
But they coincide when they say that since the early Christian organized church, meaning since Constantino, the Rome emperor,
Richard: and
Cláudia: the Roman emperor, and Sylvester, Sylvester, the first pope that was engaged in this so-called political, social, economic, structured church, Catholic church, or the Church of Rome. Because Sylvester was the first pope that was not seen as an underground religious person or leader. Because so far, religion was persecuted.
Christianity was persecuted by the Roman Empire. Forgive
Richard: my ignorance, but what years are we talking now, Cláudia?
Cláudia: We are speaking about the 4th century.
Richard: 4th century,
Cláudia: so the 300... And such. St. Augustine? St.
Richard: Augustine was after
Cláudia: that. After that, okay. After that. So until this time when Constantine, the emperor, he had a very strong experience himself, spiritual experience, because he was in a battle, in a big war.
He was engaged in many wars because the Roman Empire was very powerful. The Roman Empire was almost all over the world, has its laws, its social, political, and economic organization all over Europe, Africa, and they were almost the owners of the world and the planet. At the time. And Roman Empire had its own gods. They were pagan gods. There were pagan gods.
Richard: Dualistic view too, right?
Cláudia: Yeah. So they were very much developed in terms of philosophy. They had already the estoic thinkers. They had all this Greek civilization behind them. So they were philosophically much better developed even than the Christians that had a more religious theological approach and not philosophical. But Constantine had a very, very strong experience. And he saw during a battle, during the night, one night, he saw in the sky a cross.
And then he heard a voice saying, Accept the cross, and through the cross, with the cross, you will be a winner. You will conquer the enemy. Be victorious. You will be victorious. And so he was so much impressed by that. That would
Richard: impress you. I mean, imagine you're there in the middle of a battle, at night of a battle, and you see this cross in the sky.
Cláudia: And this happened also with Paul, the apostle, when he was struck by a lightning of energy of God, and Jesus said, why do you persecute me? And then after that, he started to be an apostle, and he gave his life, dedicated his life to spread the message. So this experience happens sometimes with chosen people. And Constantine, he adopted the cross and even physically adopted the cross as a symbol for his army.
And he won the battle. So he came back to Rome, totally shaken and impressed, looked for the pope at the time. It was not Sylvester, it was a pope before Sylvester. And he said, I'm humbling myself and I want to become a Christian. I want to be baptized, but I'm a sinner. So, and he said, this is funny because he said, I will have to wait until the end of my life because if I repent now and if I am baptized, I know I will sin again.
I will not be perfect. I will not be
Richard: able to promise that I will not sin. We have a bit of a problem here. I
Cláudia: will not be able to promise that I will not sin again. So I have to take a serious behavior like a decision, but only be baptized in the end of my life. So it will be more in accordance to my purpose.
And this is something that I want you to write down, this idea that to be with God, one must not sin. So please write down, and I
Richard: want to be back to this area. Good. Got it.
Cláudia: So that's what happened. And he said, from now on, you will have the whole empire, the roads, the army, the mayors, the governors, every single person, citizen, being Roman or under the power of Rome, will have to obey Christianity as the state religion.
And the pope will be almost above the emperor and will be ruling what will happen in the Roman Empire and Roman civilization. So imagine, Jones, for a group of Christians that were underground being all martyred because of their beliefs and they could not own anything, they could not have any property, they had to be anonymous in society. So this was a shift,
Richard: enormous
Cláudia: shift,
Richard: huge shift.
Because I've been to the catacombs in Rome where they lived there in these days before Constantine, and boy that was not a very
Cláudia: nice, they were arrested, tortured, assassinated, tough life, and buried under
Richard: horrible conditions, anonymous
Cláudia: graves, graves etc etc. So after a time the Pope who was in charge when Constantine had his conversion, died peacefully. We had a serious ceremony of burial.
For the first time, a pope was buried with honors from the state, and then Sylvester was appointed after him. So Sylvester was the first real, real pope that was chosen and picked up by a church that was a legal, official religion of the state. Since then, the power of Christianity only grew more and more to a point where Rome was almost the owner of the world in terms of power.
They were more powerful than emperors, than kings. Emperors and kings had to bow themselves in front of the Pope and obey the Pope. So we cannot say that Christianity was not able to make it to bring the kingdom of Jesus, the divine kingdom, to the planet because they had no power to do that, because they had all the power and all the conditions to do that.
So what happened? So what happened? And this is the crucial point. And here comes Keppe with his understanding about what happened. When Keppe speaks about power, political and social power, he's speaking also about exoteric ideas, that services, ceremonies, official practices, external rights, formalities, laws. This would be just what was needed, sacraments, to go to the church, attend the sacraments, being like up to date with the rules and the commandments of the church.
But no one ever really understood what Jesus meant. So they had this huge, powerful Christian institution that was then gradually rotten from within, as even Malachi Martin said, that the church was rotten from within. From a long time ago. From a long time ago, centuries. So when Sylvester started his papacy, they were hoping to be able to finally prepare humanity for the second coming of Jesus.
But as the second coming of Jesus was something that was not well understood when it would happen, and they had to wait and wait, and they saw this as a physical manifestation of Jesus and not a spiritual manifestation of Jesus. So they had to organize themselves in a way that made them packed, politically speaking, with all the powerful people, political, economic, and social powerful people in the planet.
So since then, Vatican became a state, even later, a real true state. So they have all their political, temporal, powerful interests that have nothing to do with Jesus' teachings and on the opposite.
Richard: Let's take a break. It's like the difference between the paperwork, maybe, Cláudia, the bureaucracy, and what it actually means to be Christian. Well, if our listeners are anything like me, Cláudia, this is a view of history that we never hear because of this dismissal of theology for having no relevance in our modern world.
Guns, germs, and steel. That's what created our modern world, as Jared Diamond has articulated it in his enormously popular book. But what you're opening up here, Cláudia, is to see the movements of history through the religious impulse, not the militaristic one or even the technological one. And that's a subject, I think, that begs more discussion. So you'll come back, won't you? We'll get to that in just a moment on the third part of our amazing program today.
This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, back with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco and a trilogical history of religion and maybe of humanity. When we come back, stay with us. We are back continuing our discussion about really the history of Christianity and what Norberto Keppe's work of Analytical Trilogy means when it talks about spirituality, how to separate those two.
So we've come to the place Cláudia, in your very expansive discussions about the corruption within, and this started way, way, way, way, way back, almost at the beginning of the time of Christianity. And you said just before the break that they didn't have an idea of what Jesus was talking about, actually. They had this idea of sacraments and confession and these kinds of religious ceremonies.
But what Jesus was talking about was not that so much. I mean, obviously, those things have their value, have their place, but he was talking about something much more practical, maybe, day to day.
Cláudia: So, as I was saying, the interests of the religious leaders had then a commitment with diplomacy, the so-called diplomacy. They became more diplomatic than truthful, honest. They started to see their own economic and social interests and their pacts and their partnerships, and they even promoted war sometimes.
They had their armies to defend their interests, and they were always involved in situations that they had to make choices that would inflict something against the teaching of Jesus and they had to defend the institution of the church. And I don't mean that there were not real, real saints inside the church. We had many saints, really honest people. And it was because of those saints that the church was able to preserve for centuries a lot of power, centuries and centuries, a lot of power and respect because of those that were inside the institution, but they were honest and saint.
And many times the real saints were even persecuted by the institutional church. We had the very always fresh example of Joan of Arc.
Richard: Joan of Arc, yeah.
Cláudia: So she was put to burn in fire. For
Richard: political reasons, by the way. For political reasons. And
Cláudia: the Cardinal Cochon was behind her persecution.
Richard: And the British. The English wanted to get
Cláudia: control of England. So you see this and you see many, many cases of geniuses and scientists and artists that were persecuted by the church.
San Francisco just ceased. San Francis, he was thrown out of the Vatican by the Pope as being like
Richard: a bum.
Cláudia: A
Richard: low level. Get this bum
Cláudia: out of the Vatican and that's what happened in the first place, and then he was so much loved by people that the Pope had to receive him later. So we see this many times, we see for instance the apparitions of the Holy Mother being covered up sometimes by the church, so it is something that we could not see and call this Christianity.
So what we see is that Christianity, and we use this word Christianity because they call themselves Christians, but we can say that Christians really didn't understand, at least institutional religion, did not understand truly the message of Jesus. And let's understand why. Jesus always spoke in esoteric terms, eso, inside. Because exo
Richard: is outside. The system, the structure.
Cláudia: So, eso, inside. Jesus always spoke.
And he spoke also about a kind of baptism. To be baptized in spirit and not only in water. Because so far, people were baptized by water, using water. And Jesus brought the baptism of the Spirit. And those who would not be born again in spirit, they would not really be baptized. So always Jesus was speaking about inner life, inner terms, saying that the true adorers of the Father, those who the Father would love the most, would be those who would not follow temples but would be the followers in truth and in spirit.
So he had always been an extremely initiated person in terms of being giving value to the inner life of the person. And we had not seen so far Richard any science, any school of psychology, any religion that would take or give so much importance to the inner life of the individual as Keppe does.
Richard: And how that inner life manifests in our external actions, right?
This is
Cláudia: so important, isn't it? Yes, yes. Because it has manifestation. So you see, for instance, many clerics being victim of their own trap, having talked so much only about sex and sex and sex and sexual sins, And now, having all these scandals of pedophilia. So, we see that the approach that religious people give, not only Christians, Richard, I'm now speaking about Jews, I'm speaking about Muslims, I'm speaking about Buddhists, Hindus, they give an enormous importance to external things.
Miracles coming from outside, contacts with gods and spiritual leaders from outside, religious practices like ceremonials, even meditation, they do, but not doing an inner examination of oneself, of this inner life. So being inner oriented is not easy, no. Because if we look inside as jesus taught, if we bring light to our inner lives, then we will see not only good and beautiful things inside of us, we will see all that jesus said behind the hypocritical, the mask, the hypocritical behavior.
We have a lot of ill intentions as he quoted, dishonesty, lying, slandering, envy, arrogance, hatred and justice, egotism, narcissism, many sins in this area,
Richard: spiritual area, greed
Cláudia: and materialism. So all this, but mostly the spiritual sins. Yes, the spiritual sins that are even more important and worse, and that Keppe puts all together and in a package that he calls inversion. So we appreciate and we take a lot of pleasure from these demons, then we bring inside.
So demons are inside of us and we are many times acting like demons, and this is something that is not easy to see and to admit.
Richard: This has helped me a lot, though, Cláudia, and Dr. Keppe's work to understand spirituality, because, you know, if we see it as this kind of institutional thing, it's more difficult to reach, actually, because the real idea of, like, being good, of being honest, being ethical, this is something very practical.
And, of course, then we need to see how we deviate from that. This becomes a much more dynamic struggle to me somehow than this idea of what the church says we can do and can't do. It's more this idea then of how am I dynamically expressing what it means to be a Christian type person? What am I doing and how am I not doing that?
It becomes a very therapeutic process and I find this very helpful somehow. And
Cláudia: if you consider that all the world will have one day to be the followers of Jesus and his teachings, you will never be able to understand this through an institutional religion and people being baptized in one church. This seems to be impossible to happen. But if you have the true vision of Jesus and his teachings, which is an inner-oriented, spiritual-oriented vision, as Keppe puts in his science, it's absolutely possible.
Because any person who is honest and has a common sense will agree with what the trilogical science does. And Keppe understands Jesus in a more deep way through science. So there is no, and there is this spirit of Jesus in his science. So when the world understands the spirit of Jesus through analytical trilogies, through the scientific approach, and understand that Jesus is the most sensible being ever in the universe, they will not contradict.
His teachings, because it's a common sense, and all of them have this inside of themselves, printed. Every human being has this understanding in their inner lives. Like, you must, if you want to be happy here, now, love God above anything, which is goodness, beauty, and truth. Right. And do to your fellow man what you would like to be done
to
Richard: you. So it's such a simple rule that it's impossible for any person to contradict.
Yeah, but it's so helpful, Cláudia, because you've just made God, goodness, beauty, and truth, and not this figure in the sky. It's a way to honor in our own lives here now, being good, being beautiful, being true, giving value to that above all things.
Cláudia: And the pure act, because God is pure act, and God is a being, energetic being. He provides all the energy.
He's modern. He's not only contemporary, but he's the owner of the past, the present, and the future. So this cosmic God and this cosmic Jesus Christ, it's a person that when people understand, then we will see all peoples from all religions, all sources converting to Christianity, but not the old-fashioned Christianity. The misunderstanding of Christianity and Christ.
Richard: Yeah, see, this makes God and Jesus relevant somehow, not something from a thousand years ago, two thousand years ago, but a relevant experience now.
Has Dr. Keppe's definition of God in this way been acceptable to the religious people? Yeah,
Cláudia: sure, because it's universal. It's universal. And it's all Christian. Jesus is speaking through science. So it's really beautiful to understand. And many atheists, many Muslims, many Jews, as you know, we have all religions in our trilogical society.
Richard: And people who are not religious in the formal sense, like myself.
Because
Cláudia: the true spirituality, the true Christianity is spirit. It's the inner life of the person. So going back to that subject, which I mentioned in the
Richard: beginning. One must not sin
Cláudia: to be with God. So the dilemma of Constantine. So this was something that was a mistake done by the religious, like the institutional religious people. They gave the idea that if you confessed, you would have to commit not to sin again.
And honest people know they are imperfect. We have the original sin. We are upside down. We have this in our psychogenetics. We have this in our DNA, so we know we will not be able to avoid sin. And if we say that, we are being liars and hypocritical or crazy, or crazy, dishonest and crazy and lunatic, because the arrogance of seeing oneself as perfect is a form of mental sickness.
So an honest, a humble person seen by Jesus Christ when he spoke about this as closer to him was that one who saw himself as a sinner. So the message of trilogical science is one must see and admit our pathologies, our sins, in order to be able to humble ourselves and do as much as possible about that. And God knows we are unperfect.
Richard: He sees that all the time. Well, we need to take another break. I love this discussion about what it means to truly be a good person. If you want to call that a Christian person, fantastic. Yet,
Cláudia: to be a truly good person is to admit how bad we are.
Richard: So can we come back and talk about that in just a moment? Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network, Richard Lloyd Jones with Dr.
Cláudia Bernhard-Prusheko, our history and exploration of true Christianity. Back in just a moment. We are back on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, Richard Lloyd Jones with Dr. Cláudia Bernhard-Prusheko. To be good is to see how bad we are. Yes. That doesn't sound like a lot of fun.
Cláudia: Yes. But this is the only way.
Richard: This is the most
Cláudia: difficult part. And you have seen in the group therapies, in your own therapy, trilogical therapy, how difficult it is to admit the real real sins we commit and how arrogant we can be.
Yeah, because how upside down. Yeah,
Richard: because there's so much censorship around this in the religious, actually in any culture. There's this huge censorship of mistakes, that I shouldn't be like that. I remember once when I was doing a kind of a self-assessment questionnaire, Cláudia, for some program I was doing, some self-development program, and there'd be many questions on there. What would you do in this situation?
You know, and I felt, oh, you know, I don't want to answer that question because to say that I'm bad in that situation is horrible. So I would say maybe, or sometimes, you know, we, we want to avoid, there's this incredible censorship we have to admit what's really going on. And yet that is the way to the, to being better,
Cláudia: isn't it?
Yes. And please read This excerpt that Keppe wrote here in one of his books, Society, down there.
Richard: Yeah, this is from Universe of the Spirits, which we were considering last week. This is a quote now. As society is inverted, any subject that is not in accordance with the social structure or is not understood is rejected. As the reader may note, the human being prefers to continue with his same habits a.
Out of fear of losing everything he has and b. Mainly because of the enormous pressure the powerful exert on him to reject any changes. Let's say that society wants to continue as it always has without accepting to live with the consciousness of its mistakes. That's it. That's it.
Cláudia: He speaks in everything in this phrase, in this paragraph. We can go home now.
He
Richard: sort
Cláudia: of said, but we still have a few minutes, so let's continue a bit. So imagine the institutions, Richard, because I'm not speaking only about Vatican. I remembered Vatican because I was reading last weekend one of Malachis Martin's books, and I appreciate it very much. But you can see this in any institution. They don't want to change. They want to continue with their mistakes in the same way they have been doing and living, but only they don't want to take responsibility or accept the consequences, the negative consequences.
Richard: Yeah, let's just speak about that. Because if we talk about this in terms of like business or even our personal lives, this idea that we want to continue making the mistake is very confusing. Because we actually don't want the results of doing bad things. We would like to, if we had our druthers, we would love to do bad things and have good results.
This would be the sort of ideal thing. So this is something Dr. Keppe has discovered in the psychopathology, that we have this desire to go against the truth of ourselves without wanting the consequences of that.
Cláudia: Imagine this huge billionaire, trillionaire industry, which is the medicine, medical industry.
Richard: Trillions of dollars
Cláudia: every year. Trillions,
Richard: trillions. They
Cláudia: are totally upside down in their principles. All doctors should know by now because every magazine and person in the planet already has this common sense that emotions affect health.
So it's impossible. We have been working with this since the 70s. And how come trilogical psychosomatics is not yet in the official structure of society. A few universities have a few departments with a few professors.
Richard: And a little bit of money for
Cláudia: research. That are studying this. But all the major investment is for drugs, for allopathic medicine, organic-oriented medicine.
Richard: Surgery technology.
Cláudia: Surgery, which gives and brings more side effects than help, so we see this continuing.
And we see that all this huge structure of medical officials, medical doctors and medical professionals, health professionals, they are not, they don't have the intention to throw away most of what they learned as and seeing it as harmful to their patients, and to themselves, and starting with a whole new disinverted medicine.
Richard: So this would be then examples, in psychological terms, of pride, of arrogance, of haughtiness, these spiritual problems manifested in this social environment of medicine then, right?
Cláudia: And the powerful who owns the economy of this industry, they put an enormous pressure on And the public officials and the people who work in the area.
Richard: Huge lobbies in the drug industry. My
Cláudia: God. My gosh. My God. So you see this in medicine and then you see this in law and in economic laws. Countries know that they have to change a lot in their laws, but they don't because of all this commitment, this dishonest, unethical, pharisaic commitments among the officials, the public officials and the economic powerful, financial powerful.
So they know they are wrong. They know they should change, but they won't because they won't, they will not admit that they are in the wrong way. So if everybody and all institutions are heading to an inverted upside down way, wrong way, they're like, it will be a self-destructive.
Richard: No way to, it's unsustainable.
Cláudia: Unsustainable. One
Richard: of my clients is a very good lawyer here, and he's been doing a lot of work with big companies suing some Swiss banks, Cláudia.
And he said that the Swiss banks are incredible because they will accept money from any kind of business, any criminal activity, anything you want to do, they accept money. But if there's something negative written about you in the newspaper, they will freeze your accounts immediately. In other words, they're totally censored, censored, censored, don't want to know, don't want to know, don't want to know.
The moment there's a little bit of bad publicity, boom, they freeze everything. And so they're very, very, very hypocritical. They accept, accept, accept, accept, accept until you get caught. So they put all of this thing on the problem in the human being is not to get caught. Well, look at the immorality of this. Totally unethical, totally anti-Christian, anti-Buddhist, anti-Islam.
Cláudia: Anti-Jewish, because the Jewish laws do not condone, the true Jewish laws do not condone with interest, speculation.
It's against their laws, too, against Muslims' laws. So, we see we are living a total upside down, materialistic, and unfortunately, unfortunately, and going back to the power of the Christian church, before it started to split between Protestants and Calvinists and Evangelic and born again and this and that, now we see uma coxa de retalhos.
Richard: Wow. How do you call this? That's a good question.
I don't know, like a... Patchwork. Ah, thank you. Like
Cláudia: a patchwork quilt of these different... Yeah, so we see so
Richard: many churches, Christian churches,
Cláudia: and all wanting their own small power or big power, whatever. They're fighting for power and prestige and money, and with external rights, and belonging to a church, and going to this physical church, And they don't see that the church of Jesus is a spiritual church built in resonance.
It's an energetic, resonant church, spiritual, invisible, invisible, not visible church. This is the biggest church that Jesus has. And this does not necessarily involve people who were baptized in water inside
Richard: a church. Dr. Keppe says in one of his books, now
Cláudia: many religious will like be furious with
Richard: me, but
Cláudia: Jesus spoke about this himself. I'm quoting him
Richard: and he said yes, he said that we would accomplish even greater works than he, because through goodness we can unite forces with him.
So it's like it's hopeful, even though
Cláudia: sure to have finally finally a true Christianity in the planet, universal.
Richard: Yeah, and I think this is what makes the functionaries, maybe, of the churches, the people who are, like, dedicated their lives to the structure of the church. Maybe this gets them a little on
Cláudia: edge, Cláudia. I see how many people, like, they feel, like, deceived, disappointed, disillusioned, because they came to this structure to, they belong to a church out of idealism.
And then they see that their ideals are not able to be accomplished. So I wonder how disappointed, how sad, how depressed they must feel. But there is hope.
Richard: Yeah, because inside us, as Dr. Keppe says, is where the true, well, he says every one of us is a repressed marvel, right? He says this.
Cláudia: And Keppe does not say that the churches should finish.
No, no, no. That theology should be extinguished. No, no, no, no, on the opposite. They should be revived with the true spirit.
Richard: But he talks a little bit about not having the theology in the society, but making society theological.
Cláudia: Theological society. He understands that God is the owner of all societies, and so this idea that the kingdom of God will be just after this life, after death, This is not the way you understand.
We understand what Jesus taught. And since he came here, he wanted to redeem the whole of humanity. And many prophets say, one day there would be here a divine kingdom. Not heaven, but a divine kingdom following God's laws.
Richard: What would that look like, Cláudia? My gosh, that would be
Cláudia: so different. It would be a kind of going back, going back to paradise.
And something that Keppe says, which shows the inversion we live, he always quotes, God is not in the future. God is behind in the past. We left him. He is back. He is back. Goodness is not in the future. Happiness, well-being is not in the future. It is back. We leave it back. We are always turning our backs to that. We are always looking for something in the future.
I'm going to go there. I'm going to do this. I'm going to find a person. I'm going to change this. I'm going to change that in order to be happy, to be more balanced, to be healthier. And health, well-being, peace, happiness is back. We have to go back and see what we are leaving behind. Not only what we left in the paradise, but we are living and leaving now.
Richard: Yeah, so we have Darwin's demonized idea. We didn't talk about him last week, by the way, this
Cláudia: idea that we're evolving, you know. So we've left it behind because of
Richard: our inversion. We are going away from the truth of ourselves. So we need to return somehow to the essence of what it
Cláudia: means. And to go back. And everything, every day, every day, every day, go back, go back and think, no, I don't need to do anything in the future.
I don't need to change anything to find a person to know. I have to see what did I leave behind? What am I leaving behind me? What is the goodness I reject? I refuse. I refuse because Keppe says there is nothing missing in reality to humanity. We are destroying ourselves because we are rejecting the goodness we have. The goodness in material and in spiritual terms, social, economic, material terms.
We are destroying the good we have. So this is like a converted way of thinking and seeing things.
Richard: A whole different metaphysics. Totally. Yeah. We're not on the way somewhere.
Cláudia: It seems so simple, but it's so difficult to perform this because we have an energetic pool inverted to the future, to outside of us. And not to inside of us and to the past and to the present, like going deep, going inside, looking inside.
If I'm missing something because I'm disconnected with my inner vortex, energetic vortex.
Richard: What a beautiful, beautiful science this is.
Cláudia: Yeah, it is indeed. One day, one day, many people, much more people will understand that. Talk to
Richard: you next week on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head bye-bye for now great to have you
Cláudia: bye-bye
