I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. We're producing our program on the Positive World Radio Network, and it's available on their site at pwrnradio.com. You can also download us through iTunes. We're approaching something like 400,000 downloads of our programs there. Breathtakingly stimulating. That's how fellow Positive World Radio Network host Mandy Morrow of the Night Owl Show called our Thinking with Somebody Else's Head program.
Which is gratifying, of course. Certainly, I do this radio show in the hopes it will make an impact, and it's nice when it does. Check out Mandy's excellent program as well, The Night Owl Show, where you'll hear wonderful music that you just won't hear anywhere else. Gotta love that. It, too, is on the Positive World Radio Network. Today, I think our program will transcend stimulating to approach a subject maybe many of us have never stopped to consider outside seeing The Exorcist-type movies.
And even then, I wonder if we really believe in what we're seeing or think of it only as cool special effects. Living in a universe of spirits today. I'm Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Well I want to set this up. Well you know before I had any contact with Keppe's all-encompassing science of Analytical Trilogy, which profoundly embraces philosophy and especially theology in any consideration of what we call science, I would never have been able to have the conversations I'm about to have today, which is to say the least.
Even after 10 years of intensive study and immersion in Analytical Trilogy, I still find myself very challenged to have a conversation about the all-important spiritual world, just not part of my upbringing. The idea that there were spirits, both good and bad, influencing human beings in more subtle ways simply never occurred to me. I never thought about it. I started to take a little more interest in things spiritual after my second trip to Europe back in the 80s.
Something about the immersion in so much culture where the great artistic masters were so moved by the divine that they wrote, painted, sculpted about God. That got me thinking a little bit. And when I read about Boston Celtic's great Bill Russell's spiritual experiences during basketball games, I perked up a little bit more. But this was very rudimentary spirituality, I think, talking about the soul and energy and universal harmony and karma in what I now realize was kind of a giant esoteric stew where everything was just thrown into the same pot and you ate whatever was served up from there as if it all belonged, as if it all had the same value.
I had no real theology of any note that I was following at that time, just kind of the vague feeling that I was something more than just flesh and bones. But Keppe is a scientist, so he's arrived at his spiritual understanding through a half century of seeing clients and treating the conditions they brought to analysis. Many of them had contact with spirits.
They were following good and bad influences. There was a deep search for meaning and explanations. What's it all about? Keppe considered it all as something very real and universal. And his scientific analysis of the spiritual universe is what helped me put the pieces together into some sort of cohesive reasoning. This world he opens up, my friend, is formidable and challenging to consider and will require an enormous openness in you to follow.
Because 5,000 years of Judeo-Christian theological wisdom is no small thing, and this has been excluded from scientific study to our great detriment. To set the table, so to speak, today, I've invited Cesar Soós, the Keppe Motor inventor and lifelong metaphysics scholar, to be our guide to open up the doors, begin our discussion of living in a universe of spirits. Cesar, we probably have to begin with an overview of Keppe's work in psychopathology before we make this connection to the spiritual
Cesar Soós: world, right?
Dr. Keppe's work is all based on psychopathology studies. And through his discoveries of inversion, he could give a better explanation of what the Freudian unconscious is. Freud considered the unconscious as something belonging to our inner structure, psychological structure and dr Keppe gives a new explanation saying that this unconscious is an attitude of rejecting consciousness so it is completely artificial so what this new vision leads to it it simply explains that the human being because out of his megalomania his main deliriums of He rejects strongly the idea that he's wrong.
So he always wanted to believe himself correct. And because he believes himself to be corrected all the time, he refuses seeing errors. And by doing that, he connects himself to evil influences. How does
Richard: the rejection or the desire to be right all the time, how does this
Cesar: link us with these... Richard, this is very interesting because the beginning of psychiatry began with this.
Psychiatrists, they know the human being when he's developing a disease, a mental disease. The first step is to consider himself totally right. The others are wrong and they are right. So we have a very clear connection between mental sickness and the deliriums of grandeur. And it's very clear also that these patients, they present the so-called paranormal phenomena around them. So there is a kind of influence, a spiritual influence around these people who think they are right all the time.
Richard: When you talk about paranormal experiences, you're talking about what seeing spirits or hearing voices? All
Cesar: sorts of non-explained phenomena, which are facts, detected facts. Everybody knows they happen, you know, but they cannot explain. We do not have a scientific basis to explain them properly. What you're saying and what Keppe
Richard: has suggested then is that if somebody's hearing voices, then they are hearing the voices of actual entities outside
Cesar: time and space.
Exactly this is one point very important to be made. It's not because the person is sick that he is creating a delirium in his mind. We consider this a delirium because we start from the point that these things do not exist so we call it deliriums. But in the other way around if you consider the existence of immaterial beings these deliriums may be true and they must be studied they must be approached in in a scientific way.
And the idea of Dr Capi by releasing this book The Universe of Spirits is to continue the studies of Alan Kardec the first scientist in France in the the end of the the 19th century. He wanted to make a scientific study about the manifestation of the spirits and he was very strongly rejected because of the arising philosophy of positivism, who preferred to base science on material facts, on material happenings.
Because of that, the study of the spirits was discarded and called paranormal phenomena.
Richard: So this world exists of spirits, of, as Keppe says in his book, he has the title of one of his chapters in Universe of the Spirits, is we're under the influence of good and bad spirits. How do we see this in our everyday life? How do we know this to be true?
Most of us would think, I certainly understand this much better now, but when I first came here to Brazil, I had no context to understand this at all, Cesar, from my upbringing, you know. And so many people listening may not have any context to understand this either. How can you help us to see this clearer? Dr.
Cesar: Keppe explains that we enter into communication with other beings through the phenomenon of resonance.
If you resonate with some other being, resonance means synchronizing. When you are connected in terms of emotions and thoughts to somebody else, you start to transfer and receive this communication, even in a telepathic way. So according to the way you think and you feel you will communicate to beings material or immaterial in the same level. And so if you see your pathology then you are a more conscious individual of yourself so you are more in contact with you yourself so you are a more balanced individual.
The consequence of that is that you will present a more good phenomenon, spiritual phenomenon around you. But if you reject seeing your pathology, you will be connected to all the beings who also reject to see their pathology. The more you reject seeing yourself, the more connected you will be to the beings like this.
Richard: I heard one man say one time, I don't know if he was a theologian or not, and he said he believed.
That there was a hell. Yes. But he believed because God was a benevolent being that there was no one in it. This is a rather naive view from Keppe's point of view, right? Point of view, yes. Talk about this hell and the presence of evil in the universe. What is this? What's going on there?
Cesar: Richard, I would like to quote the Bible.
The Judeo-Christian tradition says that we fell from the paradise.
Richard: By the way, Cesar, I think every peoples has a paradise myth story in their vocabulary, in their folklore.
Cesar: So this means it could be an infused knowledge, right? A knowledge, intuitive knowledge that all of us know that we came from a better state and we go towards a worse state. And so this biblical myth, let's say, or this story tells that we lived in a paradise.
We didn't have pathology. In scientific terms, we would say that. We didn't have pathology. Adam and Eve, the human race, didn't have pathology.
Richard: They had this perfect link with God.
Cesar: Perfect link with God. Everything was consciousness. Everything was knowledge. And this was the infused knowledge said by Plato more than 2,000 years ago, you know. And then came Aristotle with the idea that we learn from the senses.
Aristotle inverted, completed this Judeo-Christian idea. So Dr. Kepes is exactly like this. We lived in the beginning. We are created perfect. But because of our pathology, we fell. And this is represented in the Adam and Eve story as the wish to be greater than God. As the wish to be like God, as the wish to be perfect. To eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
What would represent to eat from the tree of good and evil? To get something which is not created. To know something which is not possible to be known, you know? Because to know more than God, what can you know more than God? What can you know more than everything to be known? This is an idea, obviously a crazy idea, that you find only in mental institutions.
So Adam and Eve, they had an idea of a mental sick person. And by accepting this, they incorporated, they embodied pathology. And by embodying this pathology, they created what we call today in scientific terms, unconscious. So we became unconscious of reality. In
Richard: Keppe's language, we inconscientized. The truth. We made ourselves unconscious of this rejection we made of
Cesar: paradise. Exactly that, Richard. But the problem is we were not cast out of paradise because there is no such place outside everything.
We still are in everything. We still are in paradise. And Dr. Keppe points out this very clearly in his book. And then you would ask me, why am I not living in a paradise here on earth? Because we created a pathological society in accordance to our rejection to the paradise. We reject seeing how much we fell from this, how much we got away from our essence.
And so we created a society in accordance to that. A crazy society.
Richard: It's incredible to look at our inverted society through the lens of the fall and decadence of humanity, stemming from what we may feel, many of us feel anyway, is the fable from the Bible. But it's important to say that all cultures, all religions, all traditions have stories of this in their folklore.
So there is definitely something to it. Well, we're going to get into this in a big way now with the foremost expert, other than Norberto Keppe himself, on this subject, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy she'll be looking with us together at living in this universe of spirits what this means how we recognize this how we understand this and what difference it makes to analyze the world this way.
Fascinating discussion coming up in just a few moments don't go away.
We are back in just a moment. The program is called Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Welcome back. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco joins me today and she is planning something mind-blowing. Well, we call it thinking, right?
Our program Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. And according to some of the research being done by Dr. Norberto Keppe down here, we are not thinking with our own heads at all. In fact, we're being influenced a lot outside of ourselves. We have just finished actually in the last month or so, the translation of an extraordinary book by Norberto Keppe called The Universe of the Spirits.
And we're going to discuss that today. And I'll give you information about how you can order that book. It's available as a PDF download now on a number of sites. And I'll give you that information as we go through the program. But in this book, I'm going to just read a very introductory part. Dr. Keppe and then Cláudia will have some comments about that.
Dr. Keppe says, My intention with this book is to put the cards on the table with respect to the human being who is on the brink of destroying the planet without understanding why. I am talking about the mental dimension we live in that receives enormous influence from the spiritual universe, both good and pernicious. Let me stress that everything a person hides brings terrible consequences.
And so we must become more conscious if we want to have peace. And conscientization is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish with this scientific work. I am endeavoring to show in this book that we are much more connected to the spiritual world than to this physical planet we live on. Richard. Wow.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Richard.
Richard: Yes, I'm buckled in. I have my seatbelt on. I'm prepared.
Cláudia: Yeah. So, have you noticed, you that is, you are an internet
Richard: traveler, an
Cláudia: internaut, and have you noticed that these subjects that concern the spiritual life, good or bad, religious or not religious, they attract the biggest attention of people. Horror movies, supernatural movies, paranormal effects and happenings and phenomena.
Richard: Some of the radio talk shows too.
Cláudia: My God, ETs, angels, demons, spirits. Possessions.
Richard: Possessions,
Cláudia: prophecies, being able to deal with the influence of the astrology and cards and numbers, numerology, all this mystical world that unfortunately was left aside the field of academic science. And I say unfortunately because...
Richard: You're being very diplomatic to say left aside. It was kicked out of the study of science, Cláudia. It was kicked out
Cláudia: of the classroom. It was
Richard: demonized by
Cláudia: the academic people.
This is a pity because remember Da Vinci, for instance, and the artists and scientists of those times, Nostradamus, they were alchemists. And an alchemist was a man who involved or had in one field of study the mystical, the spiritual, the supernatural, so-called supernatural phenomena, and physics, chemistry, science, medicine, biology, etc. So they were more integrated or transdisciplinary than the
Richard: later
Cláudia: materialistic, positivistic scientists.
And what Keppe did was not something that we could call esoteric in terms of, you know, in a bad sense. But he was, because he dealt with human mind and the human soul all the time, all the time, treating suffering, pain, mental diseases, and the connection of those mental diseases and all that makes part, that creates a life of a person and existence.
So dealing with the soul of a person and with her existence or one's existence, one cannot disintegrate the spiritual and intuition, telepathy, visions, connection with spirit. The soul. Everything that belongs... Pre-sentiment, this
Richard: idea that something's going to happen. Yes, Cláudia.
Cláudia: Feelings. Because you know what, Richard? When humanity, following Aristotle and some other thinkers, Descartes, some French and British thinkers that split the soul and the matter, the the invisible and the visible the tangible and the intangible this is so stupid because it is as if you were saying that everything that is matter is real what is not matter is not real.
So feelings are not real perception is not real intuition is not real so the soul is not real transcend transcendence spirits are not real so everything that you cannot touch with your five senses they are not real. But many things you can see even and you can hear with your inner senses and this is something that psychotic people and not only psychotic psychotic people but children do a lot they see and they hear and many people see and hear things that are not coming from the physical five senses but are coming from extra perceptions like not not supernatural but very extremely natural ways of perceiving life, but they are not subject of the regular academic present science, but they used
Richard: to be in the past.
So they're not validated, they're excluded. Somebody has that having hallucinations.
Cláudia: Yes, so they send them to psychiatrists to try to drug them so these manifestations are shut off, and they try to because they cannot do that. So people learn to hide this in their lives, to put this in a box that is censored, that is repressed, and they cannot mention this to their psychologists or to their psychiatrists, otherwise they are considered psychotics, and they go back to mental institutions or they have to take drugs, as if everything they see and feel would be just a creation of a chemical imbalance of the mind, of the brain.
And this is absolutely a castration of the true science and the true human being. And if you think further, this seems to be like a plan, a pre-plan of some invisible beings that exist, are present, they are real, but they don't want to be known and perceived as such. They want to pass by an existent, illusionary, so they can act in freedom.
So this is the problem we face nowadays. The enormous majority of people that practice Spiritism in Brazil, for instance, millions. A so-called science and a kind of religion that Allan Kardec created in Brazil based in the work of the Fox sisters, these American sisters. By the way, humanity was getting closer and closer to the communication with the so-called world of the spirits.
Richard: The spirit world, yeah.
Cláudia: And this was in the 19th century, late 19th century. Many incredible good writers were progressing with this experiment. And so they were being able to communicate with a world of spirits. But then the traditional positivistic science came and blatantly condemned this as absolutely non-scientific and even
Richard: charlatanism and
Cláudia: a
Richard: superstition.
Cláudia: This didn't prevent these people to continue in their work, astrologists uh palm palm readers
Richard: palm readers tarot readers
Cláudia: tarot readers uh preachers psychics psychics so this was left like in the world with no um no no balance because it was left aside.
So there was not a serious scientific study about this so far. And Keppe started this study because he was dealing with human minds. And he noticed that what those people were manifesting was absolutely a part of theological studies, very serious and theological studies of humanity since the early Greeks and not only philosophers but theologians studied that. And so he experimenting with his clients and me too as his assistant, we were able to realize that we are really really dealing with a real world of spirits.
And if we don't understand how this world works, the rules of this world, we get caught in it because we are defenseless.
It is as if we were blind to this world and imagine yourself entering Harlem with blinders blinders and you would not be able to distinguish who's who and then you would be attacked by criminals and walking as a blind person in a in a place that where you
Cesar: yeah totally vulnerable.
Cláudia: So we that's how we are if we are not smart enough to understand and to see how those beings operate in this planet.
So this is really absolutely real, first thing. It's really absolutely scientific, second thing. And it's really absolutely in accordance to the traditional religions.
Richard: And the fourth thing is incredibly necessary.
Cláudia: Yes, absolutely mandatory, especially considering that we are on the verge of a huge spiritual battle of good and evil beings being in battle and we are involved in this destruction. So we must be smart and as soon as we can and very quickly understand as much as possible.
So if you enter the sites of these apparitions, Marian apparitions, you see thousands of people being interested in those things because they have been even physically... Touched by these things. Yes, they had physical
Richard: manifestations And also with
Cláudia: ETs and also with spirits and communications with our family members and friends and unknown members or unknown people that are in this dimension present and manifesting here and now.
So this is absolutely wonderful study and absolutely necessary, crucial study for any person who wants to be a little bit more intelligent and
Richard: survive. Because Dr. Kepley says that there's a fundamental mistake we're making that prevents us from solving our biggest problems. And it is this dimension, actually, that we don't understand the influence we have, the resonance we have even with spiritual beings in a negative and a positive sense.
Last week you were talking about good and evil and how evil doesn't have an essence, how it has existence but no essence. But it's very important to say that it does have an existence. It is here, but only because of the negation of the true aspect of life And that there is kind of a universal experience of this evil, too, from the angels who rejected to be what they were.
So there is like a real, in the universe, there is this presence of evil, as Malachi Martin talked about in his exorcisms. Oh,
Cláudia: Malachi Martin was such an incredible academic in this area of demonology. He wrote beautifully about
Richard: this. My God, what a wisdom, what a wise man, yes. What was missing in
Cláudia: his work was the scientific support, because he was a huge, incredible theologian, very virtuous, very faithful.
But because he didn't know that much about psychopathology and the scientific approach, he was sometimes hindered in his perceptions or influenced by psychiatry. And psychiatry did a big mistake when they didn't know how to really approach this matter of hallucinations and
Richard: deliriums. Let's continue with that when we come back. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network, the universe of the spirits today.
Back in just a moment. We are back, and I know you're not going to want to leave listening to this program. Already I'm feeling it. We did 15 minutes there, Cláudia, which felt like about 10 seconds. So you were talking about, let me just say first, that the book, the universe of the spirits, Universe of the Spirits. Keppe's amazing book about the scientific perspective of the spiritual world is available on a couple of sites.
First, on our Healing Through Consciousness site. You can see in our little book section there. You can find it there as a PDF download.
And also on our trilogy site, our main trilogy portal, which is trilogia.ws, T-R-I-L-O-G-I-A.ws. You can find there in the English section, you can find a bookstore where you can find that book. It is incredible reading. It wasn't until I read this book, Cláudia, that I had the courage to read Malachi Martin's book that he wrote about exorcism called Hostage to the Devil.
I couldn't even see the movie, The Exorcist, when I was a kid. That came out when I was going to university. I remember one of my friends, my roommate actually went to see that. He couldn't sleep for a week after seeing that movie. And I thought, I'm never going to see that. It was only through a scientific analysis of spirituality done by Dr.
Keppe in his book that I began to have the courage to see it externally and of course, see the influences of it in my own life. So it's a phenomenal body of scientific work that Keppe has done here. And there are, of course, cases of this. Everybody has experiences of sort of precognition, where you think something bad is going to happen. Some people have dreams of things that happen in the future, that will happen in the future.
People are visited in their dreams by relatives of theirs who've recently died. Everybody has these experiences, but the world of science doesn't consider in any way that this is a possible thing. So how can a science be a science if it doesn't consider what everybody has as an experience, Cláudia? I mean, if everybody has these experiences in some way, form, or other, positive or negative, and science doesn't consider them, how can it be considered a science?
Cláudia: So going back to that area where I was
Richard: touching
Cláudia: in the previous section, psychiatry considers a person who sees and listens, hears, spirits as psychotic. Only they are considered mentally sick people they are treated in with psychiatric drugs and sometimes electroshocks insulin shocks and so how come or what is the connection between psychosis neuroses and mostly psychosis psychopathia.
Richard: Psychopathology, I think, right?
Psychopathic.
Cláudia: Psychopathic tendencies. Yeah. Psychopathic, yes. Because to be a psychopath is something different from being a psychotic. A psychopath suffers more from a problem of ethics. He has no feelings. He's cold. But his intellect works perfectly, almost perfectly. Invertedly, but perfect. Very sharp. And they can dissimulate much better what they think and feel. They are socially acceptable many times. The psychotic, he doesn't.
The psychotic generally has a fragmented already personality. And he manifests his imbalance more openly. And not always he necessarily will do evil deeds like the psychopaths. Psychopaths attack other people. They are ready to kill, to torture, to do evil against people.
Richard: For their own advantage, yes. Yes, what
Cláudia: they think it's their own advantage, for their own pleasure, for their own pleasure. So you can find evil very clearly in psychopaths.
So people think, so it's missing something in their brain, the psychopaths. You must have,
Cesar: like you
Cláudia: must have in your mind some cases,
where people had a very kind of normal expected behavior,
Cláudia: like the average, nothing new, like...
Richard: Nothing abnormal, apparently.
Cláudia: Like even a very, like some mediocre behavior of a person. And then, in a sudden, that person takes a gun, a rifle, and shoots a lot of people saying, I had an order, I received an order, in case of psychotic ones, or they just do that for pleasure, for fun, and psychopaths.
But there is a very soft line between the two diseases. A psychopath must be a psychotic anyhow, but it works differently. So, previously people thought these manifestations as being only a possession, spiritual demonic possession they were treated as possessed put in a fire to burn or they were exercised they tried to exercise them or they put them in chains. It was something to understand just the theological part and then the psychiatrists came and said no, this is not true this is just a physical manifestation of an unbalanced neuron or unbalanced neurons, a chemical unbalance.
So they went to the opposite part. Keppe brought these two together, and he understands why and how a person becomes psychotic, having his own pathology, psychopathology, and having the influence of the spiritual pathology. And he says these spirits are like schizophrenic psychopaths' spirits. Evil spirits, sick spirits, even mentally sick spirits, emotionally sick spirits that are influencing human beings. And how this happens, it is like an identification, like a resonance.
So if you have a tendency to be too envious, too arrogant, too narcissistic, to theomaniac, to megalomaniac, you will have the tendency to accept the suggestions as the religious call the temptations, as we may say, the ideas, the concepts that are upside down, inverted concepts of those spirits that are here and now needing our energy to be in the like, using us as a interface with this material world.
So they need people to act and to keep acting in here as an interface. So these people come and they suggest you. So they see you are more narcissistic than the average. They try to feed this narcissism in you with ideas, with suggestions. If you are egotistic, if you are paranoid, if you feel unjustified, so uh they will feed feed this. You you deserve more.
You are being mistreated. Look at your neighbor, he's he has, or your colleague, your your fellow man in the way you like the person you work with in your department, he doesn't deserve all this uh promotions he's getting in. You he's taking advantage from you. So many,
Richard: so many, so many ways. This comes like suggestions, Cláudia. It comes like a feeling
Cláudia: you have inside.
Jealous thoughts, envious thoughts, all thoughts. Why don't you manifest your, you deserve to manifest this. So it's not that you are taking this from someone. You are doing justice. Do justice because you deserve. But there are so many ways that those spirits start influencing our minds and building up a psychosis. Which is a similar thing as a possession.
Richard: If we follow, if we listen in some way and keep listening, it builds up.
Cláudia: So that's why generally psychotic people and psychopaths they have an isolated life. If they have family, they have a place of their own where they go to stay with their demons and form this, like to feed this world, this parallel world. So observe when a person is becoming too isolated, too in his own, too quiet, not that much involved in social activities anymore, too much internet, too much like...
Living in his own world. Yeah, so he's never alone. He's never alone. He's always with those evil spirits around.
Richard: But, Cláudia, every case, I'm sure every case of these serial killers or these people who just suddenly take a gun, as you say, and go to a McDonald's, it's always like that. The people say, well, he was a very quiet guy. I didn't think there was any problem.
Nobody noticed him there.
Cláudia: Nobody noticed. He kept to himself. Yeah.
Richard: And then suddenly, boom, there's this explosion. They
Cláudia: burst in anger. So this is the process of possession. And sometimes, sometimes people can become possessed very quickly if they have an attitude of being unconscious of their own inversion and their own pathologies. So, if they receive, if they go through a situation where this new psychotic nucleus is menaced, is threatened, so they can turn, like, very quickly into a criminal and then cause un espanto.
Yeah,
Richard: they get, like, they just turn. They
Cláudia: look in the eye. Yeah, and they cause like horror to the people around them because what happened? That person was not like this and then in a sudden he became a monster. So that monster that was held within and that was being like nurtured and you see there are some movies that they show this
Richard: like symbolically.
Symbolically, some people having some monsters growing inside and then being like... Possessed by this... Yes.
Cláudia: Horrible, yeah. Contaminated by those things, and you can, you bet this can happen.
Richard: But, Cláudia, what they
Cláudia: show... Not with physical monsters, but with
Richard: spiritual monsters that are growing inside. What they show in the police shows on television, now they have these criminal mind shows, They always show it's a problem from the family, you know, that the person was abused.
Well, of course, this can be very much part of it, but they always show it in a kind of a Freudian psychology way. And
Cláudia: like a victim, always a victim, and not considering the pathology and the choice of that person. There is always a choice, Richard, between good and evil inside us. So if we don't take care, my God. So we open the door for these spirits that are eager to invade our lives in order to suck our energy and use us as interface.
Richard: Yeah, this is the vampire experience, isn't it? Malachi Martin said in his book that one of the principal dialectical points of exorcism is the question of good and evil, Cláudia. That the person begins to think that there is no difference between good and evil and that I'm free to do what I want. And those people who want to stop me from doing what I want, they are trying to deprive me of my freedom.
That would be a demonically inspired idea, wouldn't it? Totally.
Cláudia: Yes. So I would like to read a phrase of Dr. Keppe here that he says, My desire with this book, The Universe of the Spirits, is to conscientize the human being about something that only a few desire consciousness of, that there are demons organizing and guiding our lives. And you can know this is not a theologian speaking, this is not a preacher, this is not a pastor.
On the opposite, he keeps away from any pulpit and from those religious fanatics and sects. He's a scientist, a pure scientist of the mind. And when he was in New York, he was visited by Banlake Martin in person, and I was with him in this interview, and he was visited also by Peck. Remember Peck?
Richard: M. Scott Peck. Yes,
Cláudia: the people of the lie.
He was also trying to do a research, and he did, between psychosis, mental illness, and the lack of ethics and spiritual world. And he was also interviewing Dr. Keppe, and he learned a lot from Dr. Keppe. So I see that the spirits themselves would never enjoy having Dr. Keppe denouncing them. So it seems that the darkness, the people of the darkness, they hate this work because we put the light on them.
We open a window of consciousness and we focus a beam of light into this world so people can be more defensive. It's like a
Richard: portal, opening a portal into this world, because Dr. Koeppe said at the beginning that our big problem is that we don't want to see what we
Cláudia: hide. And you know why the world is in this situation? Because demons are directing and guiding our lives.
Richard: We are back in just a moment with Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, a fascinating discussion about the universe of the spirits, scientifically. Back in just a moment on the Positive World Radio Network. We are back Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, Richard Lloyd Jones, with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco, and our discussion today, The Universe of the Spirits, this incredible book, Dr.
You said, just heading into the break, that there are demons organizing and guiding our lives, and that we need to become conscious of this. Boy, before I came to Brazil, that never would have entered my mind in a month of Sundays, Cláudia. It was as rare as a blue moon to consider that idea that demons are there and they're actually, first of all, they exist as a real entity, not just as some fairy tale.
And second, that they're influencing the mind, the direction of the human being. I never would have considered that. And
Cláudia: especially the mind of those who don't believe in their existence. And here comes the academic world. And this is frightening. Because the academic world has the leadership of the universe, like of the earth, of civilization. So we see so many, so many, like demonic, evil orientations taken as scientific that are destroying humanity.
And you can see this in many thinkers, many scientists. We have works done about Pasteur, who did much more evil than good for humanity. And people don't understand how, because they are so smart, those spirits. They can be very intelligent, psychopathic spirits, extremely powerful intelligent. And they work as in those games, pull. So they hit a ball and then?
Richard: It has an angle of deflection into another ball and bounces off the side of the pool table and you have all this ping, ping, ping, ping, ping to end up in the hole.
Yes, and
Cláudia: that's their
Richard: objective.
Cláudia: There they win because they relieve their envy. They relieve their evil, mostly their envy towards human beings
Richard: and desire to destroy. And Pasteur was influenced in this
Cláudia: way that he did a huge study to show that disease came from the outside, from bacteria and viruses from externally. Yeah, and bacteria, most of them, are incredibly useful for us.
So there is a huge study in psychosomatic medicine where you can see the influence of those evil spirits in the minds of the academics, giving all these psychotropic drugs, strong like Rivotril, like Gardinal, like many, Prozac, My God, this is so dangerous. Even vaccines, they are so dangerous. So there are evil minds dressing white.
Richard: White lab coats, scientific lab coats.
Cláudia: Yes, if you could see them, you would see them using those white lab coats.
Richard: With glasses and a little clipboard. Yes,
Cláudia: and creating a world of like attacking human beings and having so much fun and so much pleasure. When you get into a hospital, it seems that you are then in their hands. And all the professionals, the health professionals, they become like monsters because they are torturing people. They are cutting their bodies and they are doing as if they were sadistic interfaces of those spirits.
And they really are because many, many times they open the belly, they open people, they hurt, they kill, they deform. They create iatrogenic diseases that are uncurable just out of nothing because of their ridiculous theories that come inspired by this universal world of the spirits. Which
Richard: causes us to suffer, which causes enormous suffering from people, enormous amounts of money are spent.
Cláudia: And doctors and nurses, they are not aware of this.
They are being used, and they are. Some of them are sadistic. Like John Dee, a famous psychiatrist, he said that sadistic personalities, professions that they would choose, unconsciously choose, would be like become a surgeon. A surgeon normally has a sadistic hidden personality.
Richard: Ooh. Yeah. And this would explain also the real serious cases, Mengele, Joseph Mengele, and these guys in the Nazi death camps who were experimenting on Christians and Jews and gypsies and removing teeth and doing experiments to create new drugs.
And then
Cláudia: you go to another field, you go to the field of physics, and then you see that humanity followed the electrical world. The world became electrical, and electricity is very harming against human health. Now we depend 100% to live upon or based on electricity. And electricity in itself has already been proven as very harmful for nature, for the human body, as the spared electron, like the free radical is one spare electron.
Richard: It's an electron that's broken away from the molecule,
Cláudia: bouncing
Richard: around the cell
Cláudia: alone, causing
Richard: enormous destruction. Electricity is this force. Yes. It's a secondary force,
Cláudia: isn't it? Electricity is not a... It's a biforce, yeah. Yeah. So they don't understand this in physics. Yeah,
Richard: because of Einstein.
Cláudia: And we based our society in a very harmful technological world, which is the electrical world.
Richard: And we have also in the area of economics, we can see following Adam
Cláudia: Smith's orientation.
New liberalism, as Reagan put in the United States and destroyed the United States economy. But you can see, Richard, that all the mechanisms that you use today need electricity. And this creates also an unbalance in the level of the brain waves. So this is incredibly dangerous in economy, as you said, in philosophy, like relativism, Einstein theory that led to the atom bomb and this danger to explode the planet.
This is a huge manifestation of Lucifer blowing up the planet. So creating all this technology that is incredibly dangerous and polluting, destructive, absolutely is linked to these inspirations of human, intelligent, intellects of spirits that are evil, powerful, and hidden. Sometimes they are even much more intelligent than we are because they were decayed angels. So they are like, imagine an angel or an archangel, incredibly intelligent and then living upside down and using his intelligence in the opposite direction, to deny, to omit, to distort, to destroy, to do
Richard: evil.
But isn't this what happens all the time? I remember watching Michael Moore's documentary where he was talking to a professor and he was saying that these banks now, these banks, financial institutions... They're like demons. No, it's incredible. They take all of the best brains in the
Cláudia: world, Cláudia, and every day these best brains of the world go to work for the banks and financial institutions and every day they make the world worse.
Yes, and children dying because they don't have potable water or food food, and there is so much water and food to feed them. So it's it's totally evil.
Richard: The statistics have just come in today. I was just watching a report today from MSNBC on the real economics channel, and they said, Cláudia, that speculation, the price of food, the price of commodities, today 50% of the price of commodities is in speculation.
Now what does this mean? It means that the price of wheat in Egypt has increased 70%. Why are people protesting in the streets? If
Cláudia: you watch the final conflict, Damon 3, you will see there it's all told in an artistic way. If they even mention conflicts in Egypt, the shortage of food for thousands dying out of hunger. And
Richard: you know the chronically malnutritioned, this is a statistic it's important to understand.
In 2007 and 2008, those two years when when the financial crisis was coming to a head, the chronically malnutritioned in the world increased by over 100 million people in those two years because of this speculation in commodities, especially in food prices, being conducted by Wall Street.
Cláudia: So I would like you, Richard, before we
Richard: say goodbye, to
Cláudia: read what Dr. Keppe says here in this purpose of this book.
The book, The Universe of the Spirits. Here, if you succeed in reading the book...
Richard: Third paragraph, right? Yeah. So this is from his purpose. It says, if you succeed in reading this book, Universe of the Spirits, it is an excellent sign that you have already acquired a certain level of strength in relation to the evil that surrounds you. If you don't, it is fundamental for you to conscientize that you're very weak in the face of these evil forces, and this is very important to see.
If you deny or reject this book out of hand, you're putting yourself in a dangerous situation. One, because you'll be refusing to see this terrible reality of being guided by these despicable spirits that only wish to destroy you. And two, you will obviously be losing the defense that only this knowledge can bring. And you'll then be totally vulnerable to all the afflictions that these spirits bring to humankind.
Cláudia: Yeah, and I want to stress, Richard, Dr. Keppe's work in this area is totally unique. People will never find anything similar in any place. They can find people speaking about demons in a theological way that understand us as only victims. We are victims of Lucifer and evil, or you go to the other extreme saying, no, there is nothing of this kind of influence in us.
So this is totally imagination. So Keppe is the only one who got the understanding of how these two things come together and how we pact and how we accept the influence of those spirits in our lives. And we identify with them in such a point that when we become too psychopaths or people become too psychopaths or psychotic, they act like demons. Sometimes they behave like demons.
They have even habits similar to those demons. They perform acts like demons. And another thing I want to mention and stress here is that evil is absolutely not necessary to any balance. Evil is absolutely unnecessary, superficial, like dependent on goodness to exist. It's provisory. So only good remains. Only good is essential. So evil is the denial. It has existence because there are beings that through their choice choose to be God, even above God.
And those theomaniac normally people who are like very much influenced by demons, they always accept ideas of grandiosity. So they deny God. They start even denying the existence of God. They deny the existence of the spiritual world because they are the gods of their lives. So they are enough to themselves. They are the
Richard: be all and the end all. Everything revolves around them, yes.
So
Cláudia: they are the biggest, the best. They know all. They are the owners of the truth. So the arrogance is similar to lucifer, lucifer's arrogance, and they only know everything or anything. So they can even be like poor people. They can be people that don't have any uh position in society, but they have this in their minds inside of themselves. They are enough to themselves, and they are the owners of the truth.
Right. And totally ungrateful, totally envious.
Richard: Receiving messages directly from God.
Cláudia: Yeah, sometimes receiving
Richard: from God. If they are like,
Cláudia: I'm the son of God, I'm the God, I'm chosen by God to perform this task. So it's very dangerous.
Richard: And we really need to understand this. Thank you, Cláudia. Fascinating.
Cláudia: Fascinating. I want to come back and speak more about this. If our listeners would do any questions, I would be more than pleased to develop this area.
Richard: Joneshealing at gmail.com. Let us know what you think. We would love to consider this conversation.
Cláudia: And be aware that the spirits, those spirits will do the best they can to hide our program and to hide this knowledge.
Richard: So that means it's a responsibility for you listening to spread this program so more people become aware of what's going on around us. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network, I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
Talk to you next time. Bye-bye.
