I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. We're broadcasting on the Positive World Radio Network, and our program is also available through iTunes. And our site has a lot of good resources for you, too.
Well you know there's much to be studied in Dr. Norberto Keppe's wonderful science of Analytical Trilogy which we scratch the surface of every week here in our program and I do mean scratch the surface.
Because of Keppe's discovery of inversion he's been able to correct the major mistakes made by the greatest thinkers in human history and correct them. All areas of human endeavor have been affected by this inversion and with this consciousness in mind we can begin begin a correct analysis of human beings and their society for the first time. This being said, why has Keppe's work been kept out of the important academic schools and political and economic think tanks, not to mention the media at large?
Well, this is the subject of our program today. The persecution of truth today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco joins me shortly. Well it's as old as time. Stopping those perceived as a threat to society. Burning the books. Playing the dirty tricks necessary to discredit and neutralize. Exiling and executing and ridiculing Socrates. Well gotta stop that old guy.
He's filling those kids heads with seditious things like the truth and ethics. Good heavens can't let that continue. And then there was Nikola Tesla, probably the greatest inventor of the 20th century before the Keppe motor. When he entered into the free energy field, JP Morgan pulled out the funding faster than you could say credit default swaps. Kennedy, well, he had a plan in place to nationalize the Federal Reserve through Executive Order 11110, which would have stripped the Federal Reserve Bank of power to loan money to the U.S.
Government at interest. Got to stop that. Martin Luther King, the pressure really ramped up on him when he turned his considerable oratory gifts to criticizing the Vietnam War. Bobby Kennedy, I think he's showing a little too much humanity for ordinary Americans, don't you think? And too little support for the Vietnam War. And of course, we have the gulags of Soviet Russia. I have some relatives who were sent to Siberia in strong religious persecution there in the early part of the 20th century.
What did Jesus do? Well, he dared to suggest that true spirituality could be found outside the church and inside everyone. Power structure is not going to let that happen. WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, facing very dodgy sex charges in Sweden. Well, sex charges need to be investigated. Of course, they're very serious, but they are particularly pernicious in that if you're accused of them, even your best friends will cross the street to avoid you if they see you coming.
My friend, a teacher, was falsely accused of sexual advances by a female student with an axe to grind. When the truth came out three years later, the girl had lied. My friend's career was destroyed. She had to move to another town to start over. It persists as any power game persists because the perpetrators believe they're getting an advantage by exercising their power.
And deep in us, in our belief structure, is this idea, actually, that virtue and honesty make us wimps, that nice guys finish last, that survival goes, really, to the fittest. In the last World Cup, Dunga, Brazil's coach, was touting the power of aggression and anger to get to victory and put his team totally out of emotional balance necessary to keep it together against Holland.
But aggression, persecution, hurts the society and the individuals who practice it. Bobby Kennedy knew that.
Whenever any American's life is taken by another American unnecessarily, whether it is done in the name of the law or in defiance of the law, by one man, or by a gang, in cold blood, or in passion, in an attack of violence, or in response to violence. Whenever we tear the fabric of our lives, which another man has painfully and clumsily woven for himself and his children. Whenever we do this, then the whole nation is
Richard: degraded.
It's powerful, all these years later, isn't it? And the Bobby Kennedy speech after Martin Luther King's assassination, The Mindless Menace of Violence. That's a particular clip taken from the movie Bobby by Emilio Estevez. Perhaps as a prelude to our discussion about the persecution against Norberto Keppe's work, it would be good to go into this in a little bit more detail. What is the actual metaphysical fact around violence?
What does it cause? What is the problems it creates inside us and our society? Here's our from-the-field reporter today, Gilbert Gambucci. Gilbert, in Norberto Keppe's fascinating book called Trilogical Metaphysics, The Liberation of Being. Yes. One of the chapters I like a lot in that book says, every act of external aggression is basically a spoiling of one's own being. Now, we're going to get to that a little later in the podcast because that's a very interesting point.
But we should first, I think, define what's the being? Who are human beings? What is the essence of man? Oh, yes,
Gilbert Gambucci: Richard, this is a secret in life, let's say, the secret to life. Because we have to understand what is being? This has been a question for centuries, the study of ontology, the being of the human being. Who are we? What are we exactly?
What is the being made of, of the human being? And there's a confusion here because we also have pathology as human beings. That is to say, we do things that are against our essence, against our nature. And so, there are many wrong ideas floating around in society about what is being the study of ontology. And very mistaken ideas. Nowadays, we can clarify this study because of Dr.
Keppe's work. It's just incredible. It's very fascinating.
Richard: What is it then, Gilbert, if we could define? Because we hear so many times, you know, well, when somebody does something terrible, we say, well, that's just human nature. And what you're going to suggest, I'm sure, following Keppe's work, is that's not human nature. It's
Gilbert: against human nature. For example, in the Anglo-Saxon world, England, United States, there's an idea of John Locke that the human being is born as a blank slate.
That is, he is born with nothing in his being, and you have to educate everything that he's going to be. But any parent can tell you that their children have personalities immediately. Many times the children, they say things, they come up with things that nobody taught them that. So where does that come from? You know, this shows that the being of the human being, it's already formed.
We already have universal concepts inside of us.
Richard: Gilbert, this is somewhat borne out in a recent study at Yale University showing that babies, very young babies, know the difference between right and wrong, between good and bad, immediately from the very beginnings of their lives. They don't need to be taught it, shown it, to learn it in school. They have it inside them already.
Gilbert: Yes, we develop their personalities. They can develop, but essentially, in a formal way, the universal concepts are inside of us already. Many people think that you have to have evil in order to have good. No, evil is the opposition to the good. And so, if we know what is the original nature of being. This awareness of the perfection of our essence. Then we can correct the errors that we do.
Now, we have pathology, we have opposition to this. But it's clear when we are doing things that oppose our essence. So, for example, we have in our society an existence that is not in harmony with our essence because we put there corruption, deceit. We put there things that are in opposition to our very essence. And so we live in conflict all the time.
While
Richard: saying that those things are just human nature. That's our justification, right? This comes even from Machiavelli. That's just the way human beings are. So you have to use to exploit the negative parts, the positive parts in order to get any success in life.
Gilbert: Yes, this is because we never understood before what is the pathology of the human being. It's not human nature.
Pathology is sickness. It's against human nature. That we do. In fact, it's a little bit complicated, Rich, because we can even be born with certain pathologies nowadays. After generations and generations of, let's say, harmful attitudes, then this affects the DNA of the human being. So we are born nowadays, for example, with envy. You know, we see it even in the children. But, as it is not something that is a part of our human essence, it can be corrected, it can be controlled, because it's something pathological, even if we are born with it.
You know, one time I saw Dr. Keppe treating a patient in a group situation, and this guy, all the time he's always complaining that he doesn't feel well. Always depressed, always feels bad, but it's constant, this complaint. And I remember Dr. Keppe said to him, well, William, if you would like to feel good, why don't you do something good? And it was kind of funny because it shows what is the essence of the human being.
It's the good action. It's the pure act. If you do what is good, then your being is in harmony with yourself. And in fact, you're even in harmony with the divine being.
Richard: Yeah, this is interesting, Gilbert, because oftentimes we can justify almost anything. We can use an excuse for almost anything, but it doesn't take away from the feeling bad because we've gone against something that's true inside us.
So this idea of Norberto Keppe, that every act of external aggression is a way of attacking your own being first, that's a very interesting area to consider a little deeply with you today.
Gilbert: Yes, you know, Rich, the aggressive act, is against human nature. It's against our being. Our being doesn't contain the aggression to do aggression. It's like putting a square peg in a round hole.
You know, it doesn't go. You can force it, but you're against
Richard: yourself. What are the ramifications of this then, Gilbert, if we're talking about external aggression being an attack against ourselves? We see in the world a lot of aggression, externally oriented. What is this doing to the human being? What is this doing to us in our society?
Gilbert: Yes, Rich, we don't perceive yet that the aggressor is the one who is being harmed.
You know, for example, in the little town where I grew up in Pennsylvania, we had war veterans from World War II. And I remember one guy, if the aggressive act was fine to do, there would be no problem. You know, heroism, the concepts that we have of defending our nation, being a hero. But what happens with men who go abroad and kill people?
We see how they come back. I remember one guy in the little town where I lived in Pennsylvania. When he would walk down the street, suddenly he would stop and start putting his feet out, checking for mines, you know. And then he would walk a little further and then start checking for mines. You know, obviously, psychologically, he was damaged by doing the aggressive act.
Or another guy, another war veteran, he seemed to be a normal guy, you know, came back after the war, everything seemed to be okay. But one day he held his wife hostage up in the attic of his house with all of his guns and the police had to surround the house and, you know, he just kind of snapped out. And so what we see is that the aggressive act has serious ramifications on the being of the human being and psychological disturbances for the rest of one's
Richard: life.
We're seeing this now with the veterans who are coming back from this Gulf War in Iraq, right? The rates of suicide are skyrocketing much higher than the normal rates. And I saw a documentary years ago, Gilbert, about the various participants in the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam. And they were interviewing two or three of these guys who had participated, and their lives were just a mess.
I mean, really. They were on many different types of antidepressants. They had all sorts of problems in the family. One guy had seen his own child killed right in front of him. He was suicidal all the time. It was a terrible thing. But they interviewed two guys who didn't participate, who were part of the platoon, but who didn't enter the thing. And they were having normal lives.
Of course, they had seen horrible things, but they had somehow found it in themselves not to participate in this terrible event. And so they hadn't had the remorse, the terrible feelings of guilt that the others had had.
Gilbert: Damage to their being, you know. So this shows, Rich, that we are, in essence, we are transcendental beings. We are eternal beings. You know, after the body dies off, we don't disappear.
It's incredible. We are eternal beings. And so we see that, for example, the aggressive act is not a part of being. It is something extremely against being. And so any kind of aggression, of course, killing someone is a serious aggression. You do receive serious ramifications in your being for any kind of aggressive act.
Back with our discussion of ideological persecution in just a moment. Welcome back.
And I'm joined once again by my dear friend and real mentor for all of us, Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. You know, Cláudia, Cesar and I were on Good and Green Radio recently, which is another program on the Positive World Radio Network.
You can find it there, Good and Green Radio with Susan Davis. And it stimulated some discussion through Facebook, I noticed, and on a blog called The New Paradigm Digest, where Jeff Huttner, the editor, wrote quite a voluminous blog post, actually, wherein he mentioned your organization, the STOP the Destruction of the World Association. And he said something very interesting. He said, because we were talking about the Keppe Motor as it relates to the STOP the Destruction of the World Association.
So Jeff says in his blog, he says, it's interesting to note that this organization was founded 15 years ago. Actually, it's more like 19 years ago now. And yet this work has only today come to my attention through the podcast and subsequent connection to the linked websites. Now, I found this very interesting because Norberto Keppe, you've been working just in STOP for 19 years, just that one organization.
Norberto Keppe has been working as a psychoanalyst more than 50 years. He's been writing since the 1960s. He and you even lived in the United States and Europe for 10 years or so. Keppe's books were all over the United States, Decay of the American People and of the United States, Liberation of the People, The Pathology of Power, sent out en masse to media people, politicians all throughout the country.
Your American drug multinational dossier exposing U.S. Government and CIA links to drug trafficking provoked the Iran-Contra investigation.
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: All this is in the site?
Richard: No, that's what
Cláudia: I'm saying.
Richard: It's on our radio program.
Cláudia: Wow. That's what I want to know.
Richard: What I
Cláudia: wonder, Richard, how could they manage to hide? That
Richard: was my question. To
Cláudia: do this huge cover-up.
Richard: What happened?
Cláudia: My God. Yeah, incredible.
And they were able to do a master cover-up with our situation, our case. All this campaign we did, as you said, our books flooded United States, all politicians, mayors, house representatives, governors,
Richard: media people,
Cláudia: common people, lectures, cable TV. TVs, radio programs, like mainstream radio programs sometimes, and those health expos that we were participating all over, too, in many
Richard: states. Whole Health Expos, which were very popular in the 80s, yes.
Cláudia: Yes. So we lectured and taught in New York University, City University of New York. So we had such an enormous, not speaking about our trilogy newspaper, that it was distributed all over New York City. All over New York City. You
Richard: guys were everywhere.
Cláudia: For many, many, many, many years in English. So we distributed the newspapers and, like, we handled them.
Richard: Handled them out on the streets, yes.
Cláudia: And there are mailboxes, too, and homes and shops and restaurants. So it was very well distributed.
Richard: You had a TV program on cable television? Dr.
Cláudia: Keppe was learning to speak English, and he was doing this TV program. Incredible. So I think, I suppose, they were not able to cover up anymore what was happening. Even though the medias were told not to say anything about us, there was like an order, a kind of confidential order to all the editors of the mainstream medias.
And we know this because one of our friends was working inside of this, the biggest net.
Richard: ABC, big network.
Cláudia: And she got this message, this memo herself. You are not supposed never, ever to quote or to mention the work of Norberto Keppe. So I wonder that probably what happened was that when they were not able to hide anymore, they forged that prison.
They arrested us for three days and a half. There was a huge protest. They concocted charges.
Richard: Let's just say they concocted
Cláudia: charges to find a way to put you guys in prison for three and
Richard: a half days. There was an
Cláudia: enormous protest. And this three and a half was only three and a half because even the president of Brazil sent telegrams to them.
Many academic people from more than like South America, North America, Europe, many countries sent emails protesting, what is this, arresting these two doctors? And so there was a major campaign, media campaign in Brazil to slander the causes of the arrest. It was a scandal. It was a total scandal. But
Richard: it was so
Cláudia: hard, tough, so tough. They made it in such a hard and such a brutality. And I want to say this here, so our listeners can imagine, we were put in prison with those drug traffickers, not murderers, but it was...
Much
Richard: heavier crime than what you were accused of, right? We
Cláudia: were like accused of, I don't know even what, because they couldn't accuse us from nothing. In the trials, they came with nothing against us, but we were put in a special prison and with special care. This means we were much more under their scrutiny. It's
Richard: like special service with us. Special between quotes, right?
Special service.
Cláudia: And you imagine
Richard: heavy and
Cláudia: you imagine when we were brought to
Richard: the court,
Cláudia: we were brought with other criminals. Dr. Keppe, he was already almost in his 70s, he was 69, a very elegant, a very noble
Richard: person. Very cultured, very. Yeah,
Cláudia: and he was the only one that was enchained in his feet and
Richard: wrists and hands and all wrapped up
Cláudia: with chains.
So what is this? And I was able to see that because the two trucks came and parked in this underground.
Richard: Under the court.
Cláudia: Which court was it there? Brooklyn Court. Brooklyn Court. So we were sent there for the trials, and we were there two times, on Monday and Tuesday. You were arrested
Richard: on Saturday?
Cláudia: Saturday morning.
Richard: Yeah, they arrested him Saturday and then
Cláudia: delayed long enough so the judge could not see
Richard: us before being arrested.
So we were arrested before
Cláudia: being brought to the judge. So, I was able to see this because I was also brought to the same place with another van for women. So, there was a women's van and there was the men's van. And I wondered why Dr. Keppe, all the others went out.
Richard: Normally walking.
Cláudia: Normally walking, just handcuffed. And very big, truculent kind of criminals.
Truculent, there's a good word, yes. And Dr. Keppe had an enormous difficulty to move because there was this feet cuffs or
Richard: whatever. Let
Cláudia: me describe that. We've seen this in the TV show. Help me, help me. No problem.
You cuff the feet and then you have the chains running up to around the waist where the hands are then secured to the chains on the waist.
So the person is fettered both hands and feet. This is for a scientist and a man almost in his 70s who is
Richard: accused of, they say, trying to take money out of the country without declaring it. This is a totally fabricated charge, by the way. You need to understand this. You study this case as I did when I first came to Brazil, and you see so many holes.
This was a deliberate attack against the intellectual concepts, against the science of Dr. Keppe. Intellectual persecution.
Cláudia: And very clear. Very clear. The judge said, I don't see any reason these two people be in prison. So nothing what you bring meets the eye. And he said, what do you want these two people inside the jail for? What is the reason? And they kept saying, we will bring more proofs, we will bring more proofs, we will bring more proofs, and they never did it.
And so we were in chained, we were arrested, we were poisoned inside the jail. And so everything was done, a very special treatment was done to us. To
Richard: shut you up.
Cláudia: To shut us up, and we only left because around more than 100 people that were, like, protesting outside jail, they made um, um plantão in front of the jail. They were there.
Richard: They planted themselves.
Cláudia: They didn't move. Day and night, day and night, day and night. And protesting and picketing and with huge banners saying, release the two scientists, this is a criminal. So everybody who was in front of the jail, like in the Brooklyn district, was able to see all this manifestation and TV cameras and TV stations and all these people filming and recording and being interviewed.
And there was this huge pressure not to publish anything, not to appear, not to show up on TV. So this didn't show up in any TV, any newspaper, anything inside the United States, only in Brazil. So this huge manifestation, and there were these FBI special people with those enormous guns.
Richard: Yeah, the thing is such overkill, it's hard to believe.
Cláudia: Pointing out to those totally Pacific
Richard: ones, students, researchers, scientists, clients, writers, people, normal people,
that knew trilogy, Analytical Trilogy, that admired Analytical Trilogy.
People from Europe, people from Brazil, people from South America, people from the United States. And let's say Americans got totally scared under the circumstances because they knew that if they had any connection
Cláudia: or if any connection would be proved with us, they would be at risk of being put in jail too. So they were totally scared. But Brazilians and Europeans, they stayed there in front of the jail.
Most of them stayed there. And I think because of the telegrams, the messages, the protests, the letters that were sent from Brazil and from Europe made an impact. So what happened was that in 1988, they said they accepted to let us go out of jail because they set up a bail for us, a bail. You know how much the bail was in 1988 for this supposed not proved crime That was an administrative supposed law or
Richard: crime that
Cláudia: was committed.
Richard: It was an oversight administratively in some way, they said.
Cláudia: Yeah, so this was ridiculous. This should be... It's
Richard: a misdemeanor.
Cláudia: Yeah, total. And they set up this. They organized everything. They organized. They entrapped everything. They did. But even though, and even more, we had a bail of nothing less than $1 million.
Richard: In 1988.
Cláudia: So how much would this be today? Oh
Richard: my gosh.
This is millions now. This is, who knows? I mean, I have no idea with that mathematics, but do the math by inflation.
Cláudia: So what happened was that we had to collect all our possessions. We had some real estate in Manhattan because we kept working for years in Manhattan. So we had our real estate, my real estate, Dr. Keppe's real estate, Perti Simula's real estate, one of our partners, and other people's real estate.
So we got together in
Richard: order to
Cláudia: mortgage the home and money and
Richard: jewelry and everything. They took everything. Because you had to do this in a very few hours, right? Yes, we
Cláudia: had to do this. And we were out of jail with these electronic devices, being monitored with electronic devices from Tuesday till Friday. So until Friday, 5 o'clock, we had to have all this to give them in exchange, like for the bail thing.
So if we didn't, we would go back to prison. And they had no, no proof. Oeuvre Whatsoever
Richard: of Any Crimes Against Us. So this is a huge thing. To be continued, and I don't want to do that because this story is really a fascinating one. They should make a movie about this. But the point we're raising this for is to really let people know that the incredible concerted effort against Dr.
Keppe's work has been around for a long time. So when people write these kinds of things like Jeff Huttner did in the New Paradigm Digest, when they write these things, and say, well, how come I'm just hearing about this work now? You, in the United States particularly, need to understand why this is. This work has been squashed. Yes. Totally buried. Totally. And this is
Cláudia: a crime against humanity, in my opinion.
Year
Richard: after year after year. Because Dr. Keppe forecasted, like predicted, the fall
Cláudia: of the United States economy, and not only economy, but all United States social structure, psychological structure, structure, philosophical structure, everything was going downhills at the time of Mr. Reagan, Ronald Reagan.
Richard: And Dr. Keppe did not do this as a way of attacking the United States. On the opposite. No,
Cláudia: totally behind it.
He was totally fond of the United States. My God. He
Richard: loved it there.
Cláudia: He wanted to protect the democratic principles of the United States.
Richard: Even today, he talks about his time in New York being the high point of his life. Even today, after all this abuse that he took, he still considers the the articles of the american constitution from the founding fathers to be the
Cláudia: pinnacle, the best of democracy, the best.
The the problem was that capitalism was confused with democracy. And after they made this confusion or intentionally made this this overlap between capitalism and democracy, economic power took over the political power. And his his fight. His mission was to bring this consciousness to American people before it would be too late, before the economic financial institutions would crash. Also, American people, as they did with us.
So what they did with us, they are doing now to American people. Crushing
Richard: democracy. Crushing. And Dr. Kepley's work was, and you can see this in his books, The Decay of the American People and of the United States, Liberation of the People, Work in Capitalism. You see a very concerted effort from a very serious scientist to try to lift America, to return America to the democratic principles on which it was founded, which is not what's happening in the United States today.
And Dr. Keppe perceived that very quickly upon his arrival in the United States in the early 1980s and began to write and speak about it in extraordinarily strong fashion to try to alert people to what was happening. Phenomenal work, this work.
Cláudia: Dr. Cappi suffered assassination attempts three times. Three times. One, we were traveling in one of the New York State roads or highways.
And there was this truck box in front of us. We were driving a Plymouth, white Plymouth. Very beautiful, simple, but beautiful white Plymouth with red...
Richard: Even driving an American car. Look at
Cláudia: that. A red cover. Inside.
Richard: Like red velour seats inside. Yeah, so
Cláudia: beautiful, so beautiful. But we were there and traveling this so proud. We were going to have a weekend upstate New York and so happy with our work in the United
Richard: States.
Was this after the arrest? Before,
Cláudia: much before. We were already campaigning about the decay of the United States and the American people, advising them that if they would follow mr reagan's politics they continue to
Richard: follow and they
Cláudia: would go downhills and they were mistaken. And it was a huge pity if this would happen because if this would happen then it would be so difficult to recover, so difficult.
And we used to work also um warning the danger of the drugs being, like, introduced by the powerful to cover up, to anesthetize the consciousness of people, the minds of people. And I think that this is one of the biggest policies the secret government in the United States adopted since the 60s, mostly the 60s. They studied the best way to brainwash brainwash and to control the minds of people.
And this was a combination between drugs, the unofficial drugs and also psychotropic drugs and combined with a kind of indoctrination that was done by music, TVs, books, advertisement,
Richard: this, how do you say this? Subtle.
Cláudia: Yeah, now I
Richard: forgot the word in English, but they must know, those who are listening to us, subliminary. Yeah, subliminal messages.
Cláudia: Subliminal messages. Right. And so we were warning people about that before it would be too late because people lost their capacity to reason about their future, about what was happening to them and to their country.
So they didn't enjoy what we said. So we were traveling in our car.
Richard: The powerful didn't enjoy. Yeah, sure. The
Cláudia: people loved it. Yeah, the people loved it. And Dr. Keppe had
Richard: hundreds
Cláudia: of people following him already, Americans.
Richard: Dr. Keppe is very charismatic. He's a very, very good man. And anybody who meets him is impressed with him, ordinary people. The powerful don't
Cláudia: like very much because he challenges their power.
Yeah. So this truck in front of us opened a door. A small window.
Richard: Small, yeah,
Cláudia: very behind, from behind. And there was this impact, boom, in our car that the car
Richard: shook. It was on the window frame right beside Dr. Keppe's head, right?
Cláudia: It was in the front. Window frame front window frame in the left side where the driver is. But we were so protected that the bullet um hit this very metal frame and it didn't hit the glass but it was exactly the direction of his head.
So we still have this car he's kept in portugal in a parking. And we have this material proof.
Richard: There.
Cláudia: Up to now.
Richard: Up to now we have this
Cláudia: material proof. Just for.
Richard: We're not going to say where it is. We will do nothing with this because it's so difficult.
To do any legal thing. But we have the car there. It's taken care.
We sent it to. After we fled United States. We took this car with us. And it's there. And the car is there.
Cláudia: And there is this bullet mark in this frame. And then another time, after we fled to London, Dr. Keppe suffered an attack with an umbrella. And someone
Richard: hit his... The back of his leg with the point
Cláudia: of an umbrella. And ran, ran, ran after that.
And Dr. Keppe suffered again a fall in his immunological system. And he was really weak and down because we were already poisoned in Manhattan. And I was more than him poisoned in Manhattan because I ate more than he did. I ate a lot of this smashed potatoes. Mashed potatoes, yeah.
Richard: Smashed potatoes and... You're going to put me off mashed potatoes and I love mashed potatoes.
Mashed potatoes, not smashed,
Cláudia: but mashed. Mashed potatoes. And how do you call this? Sausages.
Richard: Wieners, right?
Cláudia: And that's where they add this kind of poison, which is all the symptoms. What was
Richard: the name of the poison?
Cláudia: Thallium. Thallium. Which is the rat poison.
Richard: Oh, my gosh. It's like a... So Dr.
Cláudia: Keppe was... Because they have this trick where they put poison on the tip of a...
Very sharp tip of an umbrella and they can make it look like... One of their techniques.
Richard: So we
Cláudia: have also a report from a doctor in London after we fled, stating that all the symptoms we presented after were the symptoms that are observed in cases of poisoning with thallium. So, we have this document with us, too. So, Mr. Jones, but why were they so angry?
Because they had a plan, and they followed, they kept the plan they wanted to develop. We were bothering them with our work of conscientization, and I wondered, my God, if one day American people will discover what happened, and that American secret government didn't let them have our help. We were there to help them, and our science would be able to give an enormous help for them, and the secret American government didn't let this happen.
And I thought, my God, one day they will suffer so much, and they will get angry because they will say, okay so they were here they came to advise and to bring this beautiful science to help us and you almost killed them so you prevented us from benefiting from their work. There's
Richard: another fantastic story when dr Keppe went to the United States he had just written glorification i believe yeah here to publish it in the United States and this is a beautiful book that i refer to often in my classes.
Cláudia: This is an incredible book.
Richard: Incredible book. This
Cláudia: is my preferred book.
Richard: One of your preferred books, right? And there was a publisher in the United States who said this book is unbelievable. It's Dr. Keppe's exploration of true spirituality, our link with God. I
Cláudia: will not say the name of this publishing house for sure, but I was with Dr.
Richard: Keppe when he met this editor.
One of them, the head of the... He was a... Big publisher, right? Yeah, he was
Cláudia: not the head, the president, but he was on the
Richard: board.
Cláudia: So he said, Dr. Keppe, this book is what the United States and the world are needing now. This spiritual approach, very refreshing, very universal.
Richard: Very scientific.
Cláudia: Very scientific, incredible, original. This is what we need now. So I'll ask you just to modify the cover, to choose a better cover for American public, and we will publish, to start, four million copies.
Four million. Four million, just to start. But this will be such a huge success, not only here, but in the world, that probably we will have to have more than one.
Richard: Ten printings,
Cláudia: whatever. So Dr. Keppe was happy, I was excited
Richard: too, and he
Cláudia: said, so come back, come back in two months, because I'll have the time to go through this. And we went back from Brazil two months after.
Richard: You went back to Brazil, you were just visiting? Yeah,
Cláudia: we were in New York. Visiting. Visiting and talking about the book. So we came back to São Paulo because we also had our commitments. So we set up around, I think, I don't remember quite well, but I think it was around two months. And we went two months after and we had a meeting with him.
We set up the date and time. Back in New York. Back in
Richard: New York. So we were.
Cláudia: And the guy was there. He was very, very embarrassed. And he said, Dr. Keppe, I apologize. This absolutely is not my decision, but I have not the power to oppose myself to the decision of the border or the president. And they said they will not do this work here.
Richard: This book will not be published here.
Cláudia: This book will not be published. So Dr. Keppe got disappointed. Disappointed. I got disappointed too. But we thought, well, so we have the book. This book will be very much accepted by American people. So let's publish it anyhow in English. But we had the difficulty to insert the book in the major, like in the bookshops, because they would not accept.
And this is something, because there is this hidden net of interests where only the interests of this secret world government can go inside.
Richard: I have to take a break here, but they use this all the time, Cláudia. They say, well, who's Dr. Keppe? I mean, if I've never heard of Dr. Keppe, he must be nobody. If I've never heard about him on ABC, NBC, CBS, then he must be nothing.
He's got all these incredible books and people... And
Cláudia: all his incredible curriculum.
Richard: So if we read it in the New York Times, suddenly then it has validity. And so this is a big pact, a big problem you have in the United States, my friends, this huge pact with the powerful that needs to be broken. And we're trying to do a little bit of that with our radio program.
Well, sorry, Cláudia, I need to take a quick break because this is the requirements of our contract. Yes. So I'll do that and then we'll come right back.
Back in a moment.
I know you haven't gone away because this is really one of those programs that gets really exciting.
When I came to Brazil and started to learn this story, then I got really interested because, you know, anything that's been hidden, hidden away, that has validity, we need to put this forward into the world. And so the idea of our programs, all the work of Dr. Keppe, is to try to get the truth into the media, into the world so people can have it in their hands and then make their own decisions.
Now, we've been talking a lot about what happened, what caused Dr. Keppe's work to be buried. It's very clear if you go through his books that what he's talking about really touches the fundamental reason we are in the state we're in today. It is enormous corruption from the economically powerful that has caused most of our problems and are packed with that. We have our own psychopathology, which links in with that.
But this sociopathological problem, Cláudia, is phenomenal. You alluded in the last segment to the mind control experiments that were done, have been done since the 1950s. This is a scandal in the American medical profession that this was permitted to happen, that many doctors, high-profile doctors in the United States and in Canada, I'm ashamed to say, were part of this, these horrible experiments on soldiers, on people who were street people, prostitutes who couldn't defend themselves.
Cláudia: They speak about LSD, but this was something that went much beyond
Richard: LSD, much beyond. And so this incredible trafficking in drugs that's happened, this incredible experimentation with how to control people's minds through the use of drugs. And if we look at the North American culture, particularly American culture today, it's the most drugged culture on the planet. There's Ritalin, Prozac, psychotropic drugs at enormous levels there.
Cláudia: And why do you think they do not legalize drugs, Richard?
Richard: Well, because then it can stay hidden, right? Because then we never know
Cláudia: who's responding. Because they will not be able to have the budget they need to their evil deeds and for their own profits. Because if they legalize drugs, as they did with alcohol, "everybody will know who handles what and who is the owner of what and and they will know that a big big share of these gross national product of United States a big share huge share is the laundering drug money is this drug money that goes there so you have huge interest in in the situation and everything that is forbidden people are more attracted to."
Before you start
Richard: saying well wait a minute here you you have to know that there's a lot of information around about this. There are a lot of people who've been talking about this for a long time.
Cláudia: But we could tell them there is this dossier I wrote very important dossier, even though it was written in the 90s, it's valid until now. It's just a matter of actualizing
Richard: it.
Bringing it up to date.
Cláudia: This
Richard: is called the American Drug Multinational Dossier, and it's a phenomenal read. Let me tell you, it is very, very powerful. And the idea came when you had a map, and the map was the map of the world, and also you had another map of where there were conflicts, right? And you noticed that where there were conflicts were where the areas, the highest concentration of drug trafficking was taking place.
So you made a connection. People
Cláudia: think that oil is the biggest interest. Unfortunately, it's heroin, it's the plantation
Richard: of cocaine,
Cláudia: marijuana, and mostly heroin, opium in the Middle East and in that area, Afghanistan, and all the laundering money in Kuwait, Afghanistan. All that area is very much powerful. And the Croissant d'Or and all these areas where there are military people. And where they stay with soldiers.
So these are the places where they plant, they produce, and commercialize the most. So it's very clear. It's very clear. They say they are fighting terrorism. They are fighting the Taliban mostly because Taliban, they are fundamentalists. They don't accept drugs. So they tried to extinguish plantation of poppies.
Richard: So
Cláudia: this is the biggest fight against the Taliban. And when they were able to win during a time the Taliban won the situation, there was such a fall in the production of opium that they had an enormous prejuice, loss.
A harm. Yeah, money loss.
Richard: And so very fast, they went back to
Cláudia: their eight tons at that time of production because they fought Taliban to go back to their production. After American military, the production of opium went up again.
Richard: Enormously. Enormously. In fact, the Taliban received a prize from the United States before that war, before 9-11. They received a big award for reducing the – this was sort of a mask, right?
So do you perceive
Cláudia: why they want to kill me and kill Dr. Keppe? I have to say, Dr. Keppe is very quiet lately. He's very inside his own researches about physics, which are even more dangerous sometimes than any other studies. Because everything Dr. Keppe researches is dangerous, not for the people, but for the powerful, the evil powerful. Anything he writes, anything he does is dangerous.
So I want to make very clear something here. One of the ways we kept our lives was because I opened my mouth And I shut, like I shouted, like ironically saying, I'm saying symbolically. Yeah, sure. I was writing dossiers and I was sending dossiers, telling them what I knew to every government, to every, as much as possible people. I did that. And I had a group doing this for me too.
We went to European Parliament, we went to every, every media, government representatives, human rights associations and groups, and I was speaking openly. If something happens to us, if they kill us, you will know who is behind this. And that's one of the means we were able to be kept alive. To protect yourself. To protect ourselves.
Richard: And you know something,
Cláudia: Jones, possibly many people remember who Ramsey Clark is.
Richard: I was hoping you were going to mention this name because I was going to mention it if you didn't. Yes.
Cláudia: So do we have time or do we come back
Richard: after a break? No, no, no, we're good.
Cláudia: So maybe our producer would like us to give a break now.
Richard: Take a break now. Don't say that, whatever you do. Not
Cláudia: that name. Ramsey Clark has
Richard: been very involved in the Secretary of State position in the United States
Cláudia: since Kennedy
Richard: and Johnson.
The Minister
Cláudia: of Justice a lot.
Richard: Justice Minister.
Cláudia: Attorney General. Attorney General. Attorney General. And so when Bob Kennedy was killed, he was substituted by Ramsey Clark. So Rockefeller Commission decided that all the researchers should be stopped under the guidance and the advices of Mr. Ramsey Clark.
Richard: Investigations into the
Cláudia: shootings of Bobby and John Kennedy. Yeah, so he was the one
Richard: who
Cláudia: gave a stop to all researchers about this assassination, Mr.
Ramsey Clark. I met Mr. Ramsey Clark in Geneva.
Richard: After you had fled the United States? After your
Cláudia: wrongful arrest. Yes. Some people... He
Richard: called the meeting.
Cláudia: Some people called us and said, some strange people, why don't you talk to Mr. Ramsey Clark? He is known as a defensor of human rights. Talk to him about your case and United States government. So we were in Paris.
We were living under the protection of French government. I had a special visa as a foreign journalist in France. And Mr. Mitterrand gave this protection to us.
Richard: François Mitterrand.
Cláudia: Yeah, François Mitterrand. So I traveled with a friend and she was also a journalist to Geneva because Mr. Ramsey Clark said, I don't want to meet you in France. So we went to Geneva and we went to meet him in his hotel.
He almost fell like back, like fell on the floor when he saw me in person there because I told him as a defense, as a technique, a strategy, I told him I will not be in the meeting because I'm afraid to leave France. But I will have my representative, who's a journalist, and she will meet you. And then we called him in the hall
Richard: of the hotel.
And here
Cláudia: I was looking at him, and he looked at me, and I said, I'm Dr. Pacheco. Nice to meet you. He
Richard: just about fell
Cláudia: over. Yeah, he got very much. He was not expecting me. So he said, OK, OK, so let's go. Let's go away from here. Let's go away from here. Let's go. Let's go there. Like in this square, a major square in the center of Geneva.
So there we were. We were observed by people around us like he had his friends. And so you know what he told me he told me "I made a research in Washington and you know there is this shark people there and in the United States there is a hidden government and those people do whatever they please they kidnap people they kidnap presidents out of their prisons and if they want and now they are deposing Saddam Hussein and they do whatever they please don't you think they are going to do whatever they please with you too so if you don't if you don't make up your minds and if you don't stop doing what you're doing they will use their strength to shut you off because they don't think twice" and he said "you have to decide either you help other people or you survive" I never forget this phrase wow and he said "they are like sharks and you are like fishes in an ocean do you think you have a
Richard: chance against a
Cláudia: chance" and then he said "you should" but I said "what shall I do then if I stop what I do I only know to do what my what I do I work with Analytical Trilogy" and then he said "well that that's up to you" and and he said and "if you continue to work in France they will not like because then in France you have friends and having friends those friends will tell all of the friends and
very soon everybody will know what is happening and they will not like it" and then he said I said "but where where do I go what
Richard: do I
Cláudia: do what do I do" he said "you should stop even practicing psychotherapy because they don't like" and they kept he kept saying "they them they them" and then he said um "you should go to Malaysia maybe uh to work there" and I said "but what am I going to do in Malaysia and practicing psychotherapy" and and I I realized at this point Richard that he was a criminal a hidden like disguised criminal and then I was like playing with him and I said "what what should I do then" and he said "scrubbing floors at McDonald's" oh Richard that's what he
should be doing if I did not
Richard: have this friend as a witness I would think that they put LSD in my drinking.
That you're hallucinating now. TGV, because the strain. Because I thought
Cláudia: no, am I dreaming? Am I awakened? And this was what Ramsey Clark told me. He was a messenger of this hidden United States government.
Richard: It's always wonderful talking to you, Cláudia. This is a fascinating story. I still feel we've talked a lot. So
Cláudia: if something happens to me now, you will know who sent.
Richard: And by the way, every one of our radio programs has been listened to by somebody in the U.S. government. I found that statistic out recently. Yeah, it's fascinating to talk to you always. And I know we've talked for like 45 minutes and I feel that we've just scratched the surface. So we'll continue this conversation. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on the Positive World Radio Network.
Would love to stay with you more but we don't have more time today. We'll get back to more next week.
Bye.
