I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. We are broadcasting on the Positive World Radio Network, and you can also find us through iTunes, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head in iTunes Podcasts.
Well, first of all, I'd like to give a big thank you to fellow Positive World Radio Network host Susan Davis, who featured me and Keppe Motor co-inventor Cesar Soós on her excellent Good and Green radio program.
Susan had us on for an hour to talk about Keppe's new physics in the Keppe Motor and how Keppe's disinversion of metaphysics stands to change how we power our world and develop our technology. Susan's excellent program is Good and Green Radio. Find it on the Positive World Radio Network at pwrnradio.com.
You'll also hear from Cesar Soós briefly in our opening segment today, before Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco joins us for her usual conversation with us here on the program. You know, as I'm producing Thinking with Somebody Else's Head this week, we are seeing some rather remarkable and powerful youth-led uprisings in Egypt and Yemen, stemming from those protests as well in Tunisia recently. Perhaps a domino effect there, maybe, is what I'm thinking.
And we could maybe make a parallel to another series of events, like a mass exodus of 50,000 East Germans to West Germany, the resignation of the entire East German Communist Party politburo, and the escalating street protests, and how they culminated in that extraordinary evening in November 1989, where Germans went to bed on one side or the other of the Berlin Wall and woke up with no wall in sight.
May you be born in interesting times, is how the Chinese curse goes, and these times are certainly that. You know, it's pretty tough to predict where all of this in the Arab world will lead, because it's difficult to get a handle on all that's going on behind it. And this is something we need to try and pay a little bit of attention to.
It's difficult to sort through the mess, of course, all the news reports. But whatever movements for freedom and liberation are stirring in the breasts of youth and idealists there, we have many experiences throughout history of other real movements for liberte, egalite, fraternite, being usurped by some pretty treacherous psychotics and turning the people's idealism into reins of terror, or watching "love and peace and hell no, we won't go." Protests being lost as we got sucked up into the very structures we were trying to overhaul.
Somehow the powerful managed to turn everything to their advantage along the way. Good heavens, I just heard the other day that Facebook received a lot of initial venture capital funding from individuals linked to the CIA and the Department of Defense, both those groups interested in data mining activities, finding ways to collect more and more info on all of us to keep us under control.
So this great social networking gets infiltrated just as everything gets infiltrated and controlled. Of course, controlling us is not as easy as it seems, especially with the internet around, and especially as we become more conscious of how those men and women in the shadows and how they operate. So all of this, it seems to me, is the crux of the thing, because the protest alone isn't enough.
That's a mistake we made in the 60s.
We got out there. We made our voices heard. We got some results. We got Nixon to stop napalming the peasants and manufacturing the body bags. We got LBJ's signature on the civil rights bill. We started the environmental movement. But then I think we relaxed, or maybe we got corrupted by the decadent 80s, thinking, well, we can make easy money. We thought, well, that's that.
We've turned it around, and now it'll move in the right direction. All of this, I think, because we didn't understand the psychopathology of power. And that is something that Norberto Keppe, the great Brazilian psychoanalyst and social scientist, can teach us a lot about. His consciousness actually is vital for us to understand what we need to demand and do in the aftermath of protests and citizen uprisings to bring change, because it doesn't stop there.
First of all, Keppe alerts us to the root of sociopathology or social sickness. He says "it's the desire for power." And a maniacal desire for power causes the power seeker to do everything in his power to preserve his power. They have meetings about this kind of stuff. That's why so often we have the impression that our protests result only in kind of rearranging the furniture and nothing changing foundationally.
We have to keep the pressure on in our demands for justice and fairness and opportunity because it's the most megalomatic, narcissistic, and unbalanced people who are avid for power. And they are very cunning in how they play one group against another or put a despot in the spotlight so that we think by squashing that group or removing that guy from power that that'll clean up the situation.
Remember, like by putting Junk Bond King Michael Milken in jail, we clean up the Wall Street abuses and excesses?
When nothing of that sort happened, of course. I truly hope we won't be so gullible as to think that democracy is being felt in the Arab world and the pathological power structure is belly up. No, no, it's not like that. So how to take the next step in all this? How to go deeper in our understanding of this? Well, first we have to understand our pact with all of this, how we turn blind eyes to the Machiavellian manipulation behind the scenes that ensures the power remains in the same hands, while the scapegoats in the headlights, who were given a hand up into power in the first place by the men in the shadows, while they go up in smoke and we go to sleep thinking that the system is working, that something's changing.
We mustn't be fooled. We must stop thinking that just because we can put gas in our cars and still pay the mortgage and eke out a living that everything is okay or everything is going to be okay.
So what we need are leaders who are conscious of their psychological shortcomings and who will control themselves sufficiently to stop spreading their lust for power over everything they do and committing these great injustices against humanity. And how will they control themselves by us shining the spotlight on them. We need a populace who begins to see how we have pacted with them by giving more value to aggression and arrogance and manipulative success.
And we put up as the models of success those who demonstrate those pathologies, rather than striving to be virtuous and ethical and humble in giving those value and then expecting those qualities in our leaders as well. So it's a two-part process of fixing the power structure and adjusting our approach at the same time. Well, this is getting kind of metaphysical now.
We're heading into metaphysical land, really, like the essence of man. Because if we know that, if we kind of have this metaphysical base, we know what kind of behavior we need to sync up with. The only reason we deviate so far from that is because we don't really have faith in the goodness of humanity. We sort of think, well, yeah, it's kind of nice.
Maybe in our meditations or in Sunday in church or those times when we're sitting around with our friends. But in reality, what works is competitiveness and aggression and all of those qualities. So this is a fundamental question, the essence of man, although it's not one we normally spend much time on in our action results kind of North American culture. So I'd like to stop a moment now and just consider it a bit if I could with you.
I mentioned at the beginning of the show that Keppe Motor co-inventor Cesar Soós will be joining me briefly today.
I wanted him to speak about this metaphysical point because that's something he really had to understand in order to create the Keppe Motor, which defies the traditional laws of physics. So his understanding of Norberto Keppe's work in metaphysics will come in very handy here. Cesar, you know, in any consideration of Keppe's work, we have to understand his starting place, that the human being is, in essence, good, beautiful, and true.
And any deviation from that is what causes our problems. But, you know, as I speak that, I realize that it sounds so insignificant if we're not accustomed to thinking this way. It just doesn't sound like it means much, but it does matter, Cesar. "Yes,
Cesar Soós: yes. One of my students asked me the other day, why do I have to be good? How can you convince me that goodness is the best thing for me?"
"Maybe bad things will get me better results." And then I said to him, "well, your actions must follow the laws which are evident and universal. Otherwise, you will suffer because you cannot change a universal law." For example, when you go out in the street, you don't see people beating each other or stealing things. This happens, of course, but it's not the norm.
Most people have the understanding that they need to treat each other well and have respect for each other's belongings. This reveals that the basic behavior everywhere is not evil. It's goodness, respect, sensibleness. I cannot adopt a destructive attitude because this is contrary to the essential goodness that we have inside. You do see criminality, but this is not the common thing of all human beings.
Actually, it's contrary to the impulse in most of us.
Richard: Cesar, how would you describe the big problem that we've had in... This area of considering the nature of good and evil. Well,
Cesar: I think the greatest mistake we made was to give the same value to evil as we did to good, to goodness itself. And you know, the object of the study of metaphysics is the being, which is the origin of all things.
Mental illness, for example, in philosophical terms, begins when we are involved in the process of non-being. And so, being must be good in its essence, because if our essential being were a mix of good and evil, we would be and not be at the same time, and this is impossible, you see.
Richard: And what's the result of this, Cesar? How should we be looking at this?
Cesar: Look, we haven't studied properly the issue of good and evil. We never ask this kind of question, does evil really exist in essence?
Everybody knows that evil exists. We face it every day, we see it everywhere. This is one thing, but metaphysically, we would consider whether evil has an essence. Evil actually is the destruction of good. It doesn't exist on its own. If we stop creating it, which we do by destroying something good, it ceases to exist. Evil is something that depends on good, not the other way around.
If you have an ulcer, for example, you first need to have a healthy stomach, which becomes corrupted. You develop the ulcer on top of a healthy organ, so to speak. You cannot think of an ulcer on its own. It always exists in relation to a stomach, but you can certainly think of a stomach without an ulcer, can't you? This simple example reveals that health or goodness, if you want, exists on its own, but disease, evil, doesn't.
Richard: Yeah, a fundamental pillar of Analytical Trilogy, César.
How does it apply to our complex world situation in essence here today? What is it we need to take from Keppe's metaphysics in this sense?
Cesar: We have a sense of living together correctly. We have a desire for progress. When some thinkers have tried to suggest that we also have a desire for war, for destruction. They haven't understood this dialectic. Evil is the destruction of our essence, not a part of it.
Richard: Thanks a lot, Cesar. Cesar Soós, the co-inventor of the Keppe Motor. And how, you might ask, does this metaphysical foundation affect how we see the world around us and this situation in the Arab world in particular? By remembering this dialectical point that Cesar was exploring here. That goodness is the essence of life and human action. So anyone in power that tries to get us hating others as a way to motivate us, or who tries to convince us that the enemy is in some obscure and distant part of the world, well, we can try to see his or her aggressive psychopathology that lies behind his or her arguments, and maybe be a little less willing to take things at face value.
There is a lot of manipulation behind the scenes of every large event, as anyone who's studied the history and practices of the PR industry will tell you. Let's all keep our eyes open and our BS detectors turned on full here. And this, of course, is our reason for being here and Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're part, and proudly so, of the International Society of Analytical Trilogy, Dr.
Norberto Keppe's remarkable educational and scientific organization in São Paulo, Brazil. We endeavor to shine the light on the human condition illuminated by the decades-old research and clinical practice of Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy. We are not just spouting theories here, but discussing how we are and how is our society and institutions from the perspective of the most advanced psychosocial science in the world today.
You're very welcome to join us, of course. Some information for you before we take a break and come back to our wonderful next conversation with Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco. Our email for any information, comments, things you'd like us to consider on our program is joneshealing at gmail.com.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
We are back very shortly. Don't go away.
Richard Lloyd Jones with you.
You're invited, of course, to check those out. And, you know, we'd love to hear from you. Are you out there? Are you listening to us? Send a message to us once in a while. Let us know what you're thinking, what you're feeling, And any observations, questions, other areas you'd like us to approach in our program, we would, of course, love to do that.
Dr. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco is with me again today. You know, Cláudia, I was a member of Greenpeace for probably 25 years, the environmental organization that began in Canada. I supported them for many years and read their newsletters and got a little bit, how do we say, uh, not discouraged but uh sort of maybe even disillusioned, because I didn't feel any solutions coming.
I found a lot of a lot of finger pointing, a lot of pointing the fingers out there at legislation, at governmental organizations, at enormous corporations, and of course there's lots of fault to be found in all of those situations, but I didn't feel that the the core of the problem was being was being tackled.
And when I discovered Dr. Keppe's work, my gosh, 10, can it be 10, 11 years ago now, I guess, I I saw in it a solution, because I felt that there was something about his the name trilogy, the marriage of science again with philosophy and theology, going to the root cause of the problem, that could really provide some answers for us. So there's something in Keppe's work here about bringing together the correct things from all the fields in an integrated way that allows us to have a perspective of reality, of society, that's completely different from anything else I've seen out there.
And you were saying to me before the show that there was a theologist, theologer, theologer recently, who said that "theology is a totally distinct and individual field of study from science, that the two can never really be put together."
This is completely different from how Keppe sees science and theology, isn't it?
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: Totally different. And this is his originality. Keppe is original because he didn't want to make a synthesis. Not like an eclectic view, putting everything together, just joining everything and accepting anything. No, Keppe sees the unification that is in the basis of reality and the truth and knowledge, the true knowledge.
And how did he do that? Of course, he doesn't mean when he speaks about theology, he doesn't speak about an institutional religion or churches. No, he speaks about the pure theological concept of the Creator and all the formation of the divine kingdom that would be the reality, the real world, nature, the universe, visible, invisible, with the visible and invisible beings. So we could say that Keppe, it's very much connected with the old Greek theologians or people who studied metaphysics.
Because the ancient Greeks, they studied in theodicea. I don't know how you say this.
Richard: Theodicy, I think, is the word.
Cláudia: They studied physics together with theology. And they analyzed the particle, the atom, as the smallest creation of God. And they had those atomic theories at that time already. So they were very highly advanced.
Richard: Yeah, this is 2,500 years ago. This is some time now.
Cláudia: Yeah, a long time ago. And there was a decay in the mentality and one of the people who blame was Aristotle when he put too much emphasis in the intellect, in logic and also in the sensorial perception of things. And he also taught a kind of split disciplines, the body, the mind, etc., etc. So, this separation and distinction of sectarian fields of knowledge brought a, like a harm, was harmful.
Richard: Like a rupture somehow. Yes, and
Cláudia: it was really harmful for the knowledge of humanity.
The field of knowledge, all fields of knowledge, were harmed because of this schizophrenia separating the fields.
Richard: Could we talk more specifically about that?
Cláudia: They claim, if you want to be specialized... You want to go deeper, you must be like an insector, sectorized. So a person who studies this specific phenomena, like an insect in zoology, they have to specialize in that. And forget about the notion of creation and metaphysics and philosophy and the connection and interconnection that exists between this insect and the whole of the creation, the whole of nature.
It's all an energetic body, so we cannot separate things, because they are all interconnected, all beings visible and invisible. They are interconnected by the physics, or the physics the we could name more, instead of physics the energetics, which would be the true name of the science that capi brought, its energetics.
Let
Richard: me just quote from Keppe here, because it's so interesting you're talking about this. As always, when we begin our shows, we're not exactly sure where we're going to go, but Keppe says in the New Physics that "planets, stars, comets, and galaxies move inside an almost absolute energy which determines all existence and which ancient scholars called ether, a kind of fluid found in the vacuum of space.
In any case, this energetic force is much more than that. To give a concrete example, it is as if there is an incredible net made of steel sustaining the universe." Well, look at what he does there in those two sentences. Exactly what you're saying. He reunites all of our experience, all of our knowledge with the truth of how things are.
Cláudia: It's like a whole.
It's integral. It's integral. The vision of the universe became integral with Capi's theories and science.
So last week, we were talking about the influence that human minds have in nature. And this is undeniable already. Scientific experiments, they prove how human minds can influence and do influence plants, animals, minerals, water, everything. Well,
Richard: we can feel it.
Cláudia: Energy. Electromagnetic energies. Everything is interconnected. So, if we, as human beings, influence matter with our mind, we have to study how the mind and why the mind influence matter.
And we enter in a field which the Greeks called psyche, which is soul. And we enter the soul, as we enter the soul, we enter the field of metaphysics. Even good and evil comes here. Good and evil.
Richard: What are they? Where do they come from? What is the study of this?
Cláudia: And what is good and evil? So here Keppe disinverted metaphysics, saying that evil is the distortion, the denial, negação, omissão, deturpação.
It's the denial, it's the distortion, misrepresentation, corruption of goodness. Everything that is, is good, beautiful and truthful by origin. And this was quoted by the ancient Greeks and the ancient even Christians when they used this concept that everything that is by itself, by origin, by creation, by start, by the very first origin, was good, beautiful, and truthful. And the denial of what is good, beautiful, and truthful is what we call evil.
Richard: Yeah, so in metaphysical terms, evil does not have an essence.
Cláudia: Yes, in itself, yes. But as a choice, as an attitude that can become permanent, can become eternal.
Richard: When I understood
Cláudia: this, Cláudia... And see this, Richard. Evil exists because of the choice, the free choice of beings that have intelligence.
Richard: It cannot exist on its own. It can only be maintained by the choice of human beings.
Cláudia: And this choice can be eternal. This is important too. Because when we speak about archangels and angels that made this choice and became demons, devils, and there are demons and devils, those dark souls that didn't accept their previous origin. So these spirits, they are now eternally evil, unfortunately. Unfortunately. Because they made a choice and they maintain the choice eternally.
Richard: This is such a fundamental concept in Keppe's work.
I remember one time he was speaking with us in our hotel resort in Cambuketa And he asked us, he does this sometimes to sort of provoke, "what is the basis of my work, you people? What are we doing here? What is my work?" And our good friend Ortiz said that sickness is the absence of health, that evil is the destruction of good.
There's not this battle, this eternal battle in the universe between good and evil as preexistent elements.
Cláudia: As necessary.
Richard: As necessary, right.
Cláudia: Evil is totally unnecessary, totally contingent, and totally even dischargeable. It would be very good if we could discharge evil from the planet or from the universe, because they are not only unnecessary, totally unnecessary, but they disturb the balance of creation. Now, it is important that we understand this new physics book that Keppe wrote as the unification between physics, biology, and psychology.
Who reads this book understands that we cannot speak about physics without understanding biology and theology because our DNA is what connects our psychological life with the physical life. It's like it's the vortex. Our DNA is the vortex in human beings between the psychological, the psyche, the anemic, the world of the soul, or the energy of the soul with the material world or the material manifestation of the body and the material universe.
So we are the interconnection, we are like vortexes, and our DNA establishes this vortex. And because of these attitudes, which are more in the level of psychological life, and that are theological or metaphysical in the basis, because it deals with concepts that are totally abstract, totally abstract of good and evil. So because of this, because of these wrong choices and this choice for inversion or inverting goodness, inverting the energy, we inverted the functioning of our DNA even.
We affected the functioning of our DNA and we created diseases, physical diseases and psychological diseases as neurosis, psychosis, etc., etc. This
Richard: is why it's so important to say that a lot of times now in the new age health area, we hear that we don't need to treat the sick person, we need to treat the disease, which is another inverted idea.
Because if a person is sick, is creating some sort of evil or problem in their life, it's because of something to do with this psychological decisions
Cláudia: you're talking about. Which is many times unconscious, most of the time. The inversion is unconscious, like unconscious.
Richard: Yeah, unconscious. It's
Cláudia: inconscientized, actually. But it affects, energetically affects the DNA.
Richard: We have to take a quick break, Cláudia, and I just want to let you know, listening, we're going to delve more into this now, because it's a fascinating subject and crucial to understanding Keppe's work and also to understanding reality.
His books, there are two great books on our website, Healing Through Consciousness, that you can order. The New Physics, which is a phenomenal experience to go through. And we've also put together a workbook or kind of a study guide called the ABCs of the New Physics, done from a series of teleclasses that Cláudia conducted.
Cláudia: And also
Richard: Revealing Through Consciousness. Ah, Revealing the Power of Consciousness. All those books are available on our Healing Through Consciousness site. Highly recommend it.
Don't go away. This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head originating from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy, Norberto Keppe's Science Reuniting Theology and Philosophy with Science.
And this is something extraordinary. In the first section... You were talking about the break that Aristotle made, and as I understand this from Keppe's book Universal Man, this was the break that Aristotle made with his master Plato. Plato being maybe the last of the ancient Greeks you're talking about, Socrates, Parmenides, who talked about wholeness, that there was a unity of things that we are born with and we're born with this universal knowledge inside us.
Aristotle inverted that idea to say that we only know things if they pass first through the senses. So this created a big problem in theology, for sure, but also in science because we started to think that it was the sensorial aspects, what we could see, feel, hear, touch, that made up reality. But as you were talking about the impact of our minds, our philosophy of life, our theological view, our nature of good and evil, the impact that has in the world is not considered in Aristotle so much.
I mean, I know Aristotle talked about this, but it takes away a lot of that deeper philosophical knowledge that we had from Plato and Socrates and these others.
Cláudia: So I'll give you a very practical example, and this is manifested in psychosomatics. And Keppe's work in psychosomatic medicine is great, it's huge, it's one of the best things he ever did in his life, was bringing the possibility of healing people through consciousness.
And that's why I wrote a book, Healing Through Consciousness. And
Richard: why we have a website called Healing Through Consciousness.
Cláudia: Because anything can heal through consciousness. Anything. So this is incredible, because consciousness is the direct channeling of God's energy. In an invisible metaphysical way. It's a direct channeling of God's energy to our, not only to our beings, physical and psychological beings, but also to nature.
Because you remember, Richard, there was this concept that was brought some years ago, mostly in the United States, and it was spread all over, that man was a kind of channel. And they used to develop this work of channeling the spiritual world to the material world or realm. And channeling is not something that you decide if you're going to do or not.
We're doing that all the time.
Even if we don't want to do that, we are channeling, we are vortexes between the transcendental world and the physical world. So we are channeling all the time, and we don't pay attention. What kind of channeling are we being?
Richard: What kind of channels
Cláudia: are we? Yeah, what kind of channels? And in this way, we can channel negative energies and good energies. And with all my respect to the scientists that want to say that in terms of radionics and radiesthesia, I don't know.
Richard: Radiostasis, maybe, this word I
Cláudia: don't know. But in terms of radionics, there's not such a concept as good and evil. But I can say, I can state that there is. Because if you develop feelings and ideas, and if you channel feelings and ideas that are negative, like depressive, anger, to sensorial, dishonest, deceptful, unethical, unethical megalomaniac arrogant ideas, this will absolutely interfere in the functioning of your DNA, and it will create diseases.
The pure vibration and the healthy vibration, the healthy energy, comes from the pure act, pure action, and by pure action we must understand that there is impure action. And impure must be known as unhealthy. And they do bring diseases.
Richard: It's not something that just you're free to do whatever. So
Cláudia: theology, which deals with the free choice of good and evil, comes into the scene totally indispensable, totally necessary.
Scientific. Scientific. So So, again, with my respects to those theologians that think that God, it's their business, only they can speak about God and ethics and morals and whatever and sin, because we in science, in trilogical science, call pathology, sin is the same as pathology. Pathology is equal sin. So with all my respect, they are wrong because we cannot ever, never separate one thing from the other.
I understand that many religious people, they don't like these theories and the science because if they do, they will have to see that their diseases and their suffering have a denial of God in the basis.
Richard: You have that there's some way that they're
Cláudia: going against. Ethical problem in their lives and even against the creator that they are not aware of. Let
Richard: me just take just a second to talk a little bit about ethics, because this is something that's really not understood at all in the world.
We think of ethics as being something culturally imposed, and ethics is something that comes from this essential structure, this what Dr. Keppe called the incredible net made of steel sustaining the universe, this creation of everything. This is ethics. Ethical is something that's universal, it's not something relative that you pick and choose from your ethical bag of tools, you know, this one I want to take, that one I don't want to take.
It's something extremely uh universal. And so if we have a corruption in ourselves, it's because of something we're doing against this ethical nature that we have, and this is why it's not popular, not just with some religious
Cláudia: people. And you see that all of us, we must be humble enough to admit that all of us have this problem in degrees, but all of us, less or more conscious, we are beings that deny.
We are inverted. We are upside down. We see good as evil and evil as good. We see honesty as foolishness and dishonesty as smartness. People who are the biggest gangsters in society, they are the most powerful and the most arrogant ones. So people follow the most arrogant and the sickest individuals in society. People admire those individuals and they despise the best, the people who are supporting all structure of society, which in majority are the workers, the honest people, the hardworking people.
So they are despised. So all humanity is upside down And we see that it's unfortunately, we could give such a strength, such a rebirth to religions if they would pay attention to that. We are not competing with them. We don't want them to go down on the other, like in the opposite. We want them to understand better what they do and the importance of what they do.
I have seen some comments about you. Do you remember those movies like the first Omen that...
Richard: Gregory Peck, right?
Cláudia: Gregory Peck. It was such a success, such an enormous success that they made another and another and another and always. It's like every time you bring subjects as the end of times, good and evil, the
Richard: beast,
Cláudia: the Antichrist, like the second coming of Jesus or the millennium or apocalypse, revelation, prophecy, salvation, this is ingrained in everybody's minds.
You can go from the American Indians to Brazilian Indians to Islam to Christians to Jewish to Hindu to Buddhists. All of them have this in mind. All of them. So if you make a movie speaking about the Bible, everybody wants to hear about this because they can feel that they resonate with that. This is reality. This is real world they're speaking about.
And even though evil is something hidden in in sensorial terms, it exists, it's present. Like Malachi Martin said, "it's the presence you can feel of evil, and you cannot picture it like with a camera," or sometimes you do, sometimes you do even, because it can't manifest, sometimes
Richard: they record sounds. Yes,
Cláudia: sometimes, but not necessarily. But you can feel the presence of evil in your life and in yourself.
And this resonates with everybody. And the biggest lie that Lucifer brought with its followers is their unexistence.
Richard: They don't exist. So
Cláudia: they can act freely in darkness, like in the heat. In hiding. So, going back to
Richard: diseases.
Cláudia: Religious people go to the doctor and they say, I have an ulcer, I have a cancer, I have a high blood pressure. And the doctor will give them prescriptions of drugs and medicines and they will cut the body and they will try to fix physically the thing.
So there are thousands of people that are religious, and they see themselves as believers, and consciously they are believers, but there is this original sin, which is the inversion, that is this inverted choice between good and evil that we do. So we...
Richard: The desire almost, like the desire to do bad things, right? Yes.
Cláudia: It's like this inverted idea. And mostly arrogance, and mostly arrogance, megalomania, narcissism, anger.
These are all diseases that are connected to the psychological level and are the worst ones, even
Richard: worse than luxury, than gluttony, lust.
Are you talking then about, in a sense, the original fall, which we think of as, you know, as kids, we think of as like a mythical story of eating an
Cláudia: apple in a garden and, you know, nothing to do with that. No, no, it's really psychological. It belongs to the field of psychosocial pathology and Keppe was the master in dealing with this.
Freud started to see something, but he put, he blamed sex and sexual energies because he was an atheistic and he put the blame on the body and sexual energies and in society. But Keppe went further and he realized that the problem of humanity was much, much, much worse and much more serious than sexual problem. It's much more psychological, of psychological nature.
Richard: Choosing to know evil somehow, choosing to do...
Cláudia: And being extremely arrogant. And arrogance and pride and narcissism and envy, they are all together belonging to the field of psychology and evil is in there.
Evil is this in humanity and it creates wars, creates destruction, creates poverty, hunger, creates diseases, creates depression, anxiety, panic attacks, creates everything and if we don't see this thing united all together we do nothing. We get nowhere and even in the physics in terms of motors, we get nowhere with those Einstein's theories and the physics theories that see the source of energy in matter.
I
Richard: was talking to somebody this morning about this, that Dr. Roberto Giraldo was saying to me on the weekend, that you've noticed something very clear at the International Society of Analytical Trilogy, and that is that people heal when they have faith, when they have faith in something real good, god, and it must
Cláudia: be faith in something real
Richard: good, real, yeah, because
Cláudia: if you are have faith in something wrong, it's
Richard: it's it's in a delusion, you don't
Cláudia: get anywhere, it's
Richard: delusionary.
So we can see that in the direct scientific sense, and we think of science as being, you know, following the scientific method, whatever they say, which take leads us 25 years to decide that human beings are affecting the planet by the way they live. I I mean, it's totally useless in that sense. What you guys are discovering there is that the science of, in actual fact, what actually happens through experimentation with thousands of individuals, the people who have faith are the ones who have more chance to heal.
Yeah, sure. This is scientific. Absolutely.
Cláudia: This is absolutely. And some people just having
Richard: faith, when they go to
Cláudia: churches, they can get healed. Not because of the priest or the pastor, but because somehow they connected innerly with the energy of God. And it's mostly done through our inner selves.
And "it's not the psychoanalyst that heals the patient. This must be said as well. We don't heal people. But through us and through a resonance with the truth that we try to bring, people heal with like channeling the energy of God." "Consciousness. Consciousness."
Richard: I don't want to stop, but I'm obliged by the forces of media. We are listening to the Positive World Radio Network, Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, back in a moment.
We are back once again. Our final segment of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, another fascinating discussion with Dr. Cláudia Bernhard-Prosheko. Again, e-mails, just so you have that information. I want to take up a lot of time with that because Cláudia's got a lot of interesting things to say.
Once again we've been doing this program for I think this is our ninth maybe our tenth program now Cláudia. It goes by fast our work and we have a lot of other programs on that website that you can see including some very excellent excerpts from TV programs of Dr. Keppe and Dr. Cláudia if you want to see Dr. Keppe in action these are really great.
The top level of media in the world today. Dr. Keppe says in his book, Trilogical Metaphysics, Cláudia, that since 77, he's been working with what he calls "consciousness of error." And I'm bringing this up because what you've been touching on in the last two segments of our program is something that goes to the heart of what's going on in the world today.
Why we can't solve the problems because it's not a matter of of fixing the only the uh the the legislation or the way corporations act.
It's something inside the the psychological life of the human being. So Keppe has been working since 77 he says with what he calls the consciousness of error showing that "the human being needs to become aware of what he does wrong in order to do what is right." He said he completed that study in 92 and has gone on now to demonstrate how man opposes what is good, genuine, and beautiful, including his own qualities and gifts, which means that he spends all his time debasing himself.
He says "we need to look at our errors, but it's important to see them in the perfect dimension of being, which makes it possible to compare what is wrong with what is right as the only way to live within reality." Well, this is a discussion that's not happening in the world today. And all the the study that i do the research that i do about energy new energy sources in terms of new forms of healing in terms of environmental movements activist movements i don't see anybody having this conversation Cláudia.
That we have an opposition to what is good genuine and beautiful. This is our evil our original sin coming from our arrogance, as you said at the beginning. And it's, I don't know, I just feel it's so important that we try to have this conversation in the world today. So let's start that. Well, we've more than started. We're well on the way to having that discussion.
Cláudia: One thing that I would like to do before we start is to make a plead. A plea. A plea. Yeah. "To all religious people to go a little bit down in their own arrogance and thinking that everything they already know about the bible. Because science is also belonging to god science is also a revelation from god and could not be otherwise. The true science comes as the science of the holy spirit to complete, to better understand the Bible.
So I suggest, I really invite those more honest and humble religious people to understand what we are speaking about, what is Analytical Trilogy, because trilogy can bring them enormous resources to reinforce and to better understand the Bible and God's concepts."
And is the only science that does this. For instance, when you are talking about what is consciousness of error. So I already see by telepathy, many people are here and they're saying, "but what is right and wrong? What determines what is right and wrong? What is reality?
Richard: I have my truth, you have
Cláudia: your truth." Yeah, what is right and wrong? So many people already said they were right and they were wrong.
Correct. This is correct. But in science as jesus put it through the fruits you see the tree through the results you see the intentions. Freud said you can see an unconscious intention when you see the results through the results you see what the person really wanted unconsciously. And this is really threatening because you get like shaked if you have to see that you made your actions led you to such an amount of sometimes serious disasters to yourself or to the world.
So would be those actions led by evil unconscious intentions and only the true honest and humble people can
Richard: Thank you.
Cláudia: Admit. I may have and I do have unconscious intentions that are not good.
Richard: As the great Augustine did in Confessions, right? St. Augustine, he talked directly about that. That he could see the worst criminal inside himself. So he was more honest than most of us.
He saw the bad intentions. He controlled those. He didn't act on them, but he saw them inside himself. This is fundamental, isn't it? Fundamental.
Cláudia: So, we are not here to correct, to be intransigent with mistakes and errors. We in science are here to increase the consciousness of mistakes and the tolerance. Because if you punish too much the mistakes, the consciousness of the mistakes, everybody will hide them.
Richard: Yes, sure. In
Cláudia: order to be protected, like drugs, like drug trafficking and drug use.
Everybody is hiding because it's punishable. Like it's you can punish it's criminal you go to prison so everybody will do this in hiding. And so if we understand that a person who drugs himself is a sick person and must be treated and considered as such as a sick and those who do trafficking are also sick are psychopaths that do not understand that they are destroying themselves by doing that.
So science, trilogical science brings such a dimension of consciousness that if you really accept to see something wrong, you cannot stand doing that wrong. A mistake can only be done in darkness. It cannot survive in light. So if you really consider something that you do as a real wrong and a real mistake, you will not be able to continue doing that. So that's why people censor so much consciousness of mistakes because
Richard: they want
Cláudia: to continue they want to continue.
So that's what Keppe said "human beings must learn to live with each other and to correct each other with love with patience with tolerance. Because so far if you see a mistake or two or three or more mistakes in someone you really quit you abandon you abandon the relationship you want that person to be away from your life you cut off."
Richard: Well we have a zero tolerance laws for heaven's sakes Cláudia make one mistake and boom that's it zero tolerance.
Cláudia: So "people must learn how to live with each other's mistakes because everybody does mistakes and everybody has pathology. So humanity must understand that we have to live we have to be tolerant with each other and at the same time do not pact do not hide. Because either we split we reject we accuse we fight or we hide and we make pacts" and
Richard: i'm as you were picking up the religious uh sort of by vibration reaction to this.
I'm also picking up this sort of North American thing now. But wait a minute. This isn't being very positive. How is this focusing on mistakes? How is this going to help me move forward in life? Please talk about it. I mean, I understand this. I've had to work through this in my own analysis. But this is crucial, Cláudia.
Cláudia: Well, if you want to be positive, you must...
This concept brings together with the concept of beauty, of goodness, of truth and perfection. And if you want to be more perfect, you must be tolerant with the perception of errors. Otherwise, you would just be a delirious person that sees yourself as great and you are plenty of undesirable, unpleasant attitudes that everybody rejects you. And only you think yourself as a great, as a goddess or as a nice person.
So it's totally upside down, the concept that if you don't see a problem, how come you're going to correct and be better?
So in order to be positive, you must believe in the value of consciousness. You must believe in the value of ethics. You must believe in the value of man, and it's in his essence. Because if you believe really in the value of man's essence, you will think. So it's worthwhile to show a mistake because then you can correct, and then goodness will prevail.
Richard: You get closer to the perfection of your essence, right?
Cláudia: Yes, that's right.
Richard: Imagine how the environmental conversation would change if we had this idea of tolerance of mistakes, seeing mistakes, putting things in the light. Not, I'm in the environmental movement, therefore I'm better than the guys who work in the corporations, which is very much the dominant attitude today. Yeah, but
Cláudia: imagine if you consider why do people continue doing the same things as they know?
You can inform them if you use a car and then you create a lot of pollution and this will lead the planet to disaster. Even if you consider that pollution is not the only reason, but garbage, what do you do with garbage, what do you do with this, what do you do with that? So if we don't go to the root and see the inversion deep down in the root, people will just wish to do more that thing.
Like if you prohibit smoking and if you put those horrible pictures on
Richard: the cigarette
Cláudia: package, this will unconsciously lead people to smoke more. More. The same thing with drinking. So we should go to another through another direction and understand why people smoke what they are hiding with smoking what they are destroying, what they are hiding with this. The psychological reasons deep down deep down.
And we have a science that is so important but it's rejected
Richard: It's hidden.
It's hidden
Cláudia: also because they know if they do really face this science they will lose their pleasure to destroy. "Analytical Trilogy is o desmancha prazeres it
Richard: takes away it's like the disillusioner maybe, to take away the illusions to
Cláudia: take away the pleasure that
Richard: people have with their
Cláudia: pathologies with their pathologies pleasure
Richard: of destroying."
Cláudia: "It's a pleasure destroying what you
Richard: just said there the pleasure to destroy is like I felt little goosebumps go, but it's like we have a pleasure to destroy." "And if we do, trilogy is the
Cesar: thing that deals with that,
Cláudia: not just the stop doing that.
You need to stop smoking, which we hear all the time, but actually deals with the fact that the person has a pleasure to destroy." "Yeah, and this you can see even in small children, very often, very often. The pleasure to destroy, the pleasure to be bad, the pleasure to attack, the pleasure to destroy the toys, Or the pleasure even to..."
Richard: Hit their sister.
Cláudia: Yeah, they can kill their brothers and sisters if you let them.
Richard: If you leave them alone.
Cláudia: Yeah. So this pleasure, you know that drinking is not good. It will destroy you, but you take the pleasure in doing that.
Richard: And if you don't see that there's a pleasure in that, you can't treat. You can't treat the
Cláudia: real... And the pleasure is not in the alcohol.
The pleasure is in that destruction that alcohol brings. And so, Richard, it's not easy to accept the science,
Richard: but
Cláudia: it is the most important science of the world. And if human beings do not open their eyes, I'm not sure whether, well, they will have to face that they want the destruction, the final destruction of humanity. And we are getting there. We're getting there and very fast and this this mass suicidal is quickening yeah.
And many people are even taking pleasure watching the movies of like the apocalyptic apocalyptic destructions and they take so much pleasure in watching all that destruction.
I can tell you when you go through that when you go through the calamities it's not pleasant at
Richard: all no. Keppe says at the end of our program here He says, "I have arrived recently at a tragic conclusion about the human being. The way his internal structure is organized today, he will destroy his planet. And the powerful groups are trying to decimate the population because they fundamentally have the same intention.
In any event, there really is a pact of extinction that has been formed between the individuals who inhabit the planet and the pathological situation that we exist in."
Cláudia: So we are not victims, Mr. Jones.
Richard: Our program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're very pleased to be with you on the Positive World Radio Network. I do hope you'll listen and let us know what you think and stay involved.
Read Keppe's book.
See more about it. You'll find the science fascinating. Thanks a lot. Talk to you next time. Wonderful to be with you.
Cláudia: Bye-bye.
