Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Get a job was a common insult hurled at the hippies back when I was a kid. I remember a few of them homesteading in the woods off the dirt road to my favorite swimming hole on Vancouver Island. I remember the homegrown vegetable gardens, the hastily assembled log cabins, and the pungent odor of their cigarettes.
I wouldn't pay much attention if I was alone beyond noticing you could barely see their eyes under all that head and facial hair. But if my father was with me, well, I heard a few lectures on the long, windy drive back home, let's just say, about the values of work, the satisfaction of a job well done, the I-had-to-walk-five-miles-to-school-both-ways speech that all parents at that time seemed to haul out of their back pockets.
I appreciated my father's point, at least as I got older, but I sympathized with the rebels, too. And now we have the same catchphrase going up from Wall Street to all the OWS occupiers. For sure, work is needed for the Liberation of the People, but not the work the 1% is thinking we need. Working for ourselves today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
Love you to visit there and learn more about Dr. Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy. I mention this a lot because, you know, I see something missing in the dialogue about the revolution taking place right in front of our eyes these days. I hear a lot of people talking about the mess we're in.
This is obvious, isn't it? And some very articulate analysis of various aspects of the crisis. Everyone has part of the analysis conforming to the perspective they bring. Liberals analyze from their point of view, conservatives from the opposite point of view, or a varied point of from the liberals, environmentalists take another tack, as do journalists and pundits. But all this, intelligent as it might be, doesn't get us any closer to understanding what's gone on to get us into this mess.
But a Brazilian psychoanalyst named Norberto Keppe does bring us to an awareness of how we've gone so terribly wrong and how to get out of it. It's precisely this psycho-socioanalytical approach that can be successful. And Keppe is, he's not analyzing from a point of view of left or right or green or red. He's simply looking at the facts in the situation and analyzing those, just as he does with personal clients who bring their stories and situations to him.
And he helps to bring clarity to what is not always obvious to the client mired in the problem. Keppe talks about a lot of things in his many books, from physics to medicine of the soul, from universal philosophy to the spirits among us. And all this is fascinating and wisely underpins our Thinking with Somebody Else's Head programs that I've been producing for about five years now.
But Keppe's focus today is firmly on one principal aspect from his vast body of work, which he has called sociopathology. And applying his scientific principles to an analysis of society allows us to go deeply to the root causes of our problems. And so be able to analyze them neutrally, like true scientists, so we clarify what's going on, really. This is powerful sociotherapy that results from this.
Keppe's concern today is helping humankind finally achieve the complete freedom that is being increasingly threatened by the socioeconomic power that now dominates us almost totally. His intention, and ours too, as a consequence on our program, is to awaken human consciousness to this problem of socioeconomic slavery by the 1% of the 99%, so that the flame of liberty may shine in the hearts of every person listening and begin to illuminate the hearts of all peoples around the world.
This is a very beautiful vision that Keppe brings to us. Keppe is looking at this Occupy Wall Street movement as evidence that what he's been writing and teaching for the past 40 years is now being accepted and resonated with, whose wisdom and practical solutions can really lead us to our dream, even if it's a not well-known dream, of a more just society.
Gilbert Gambucci has been living and working with Norberto Keppe for almost 30 years now, and he's been embedded in the Occupy Wall Street movement there in New York since almost the beginning of that protest. We haven't heard from Gilbert in a couple of weeks, so let me invite him in now to give us an update, an analysis of what's going on. And then Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco will join us to look at business, specifically, trilogical business, how we can have our own companies and create a revolution in the whole economic situation, the whole economic scene on the planet.
Through the perspective that Gilbert brings today, founded solidly on Keppe's work, I think you'll find something really new and profoundly truthful in what he has to say. Now, bring us up to speed. What's the latest? We're catching little bits on the news, but not from the field like you are. So give us an overview.
Yeah, you know what, Rich? Of all the interviews that I give, and, of course, being in Liberty Square every day when we were occupying the square especially, I've given interviews to people all over the United States, unbelievable, and literally all over the world.
I was very surprised by that, how it was acting as a magnet. But, you know, I really enjoy giving interviews on your program more than any other one because we can speak about anything. We can go into depth, the truth of the situation. And usually with other, how should I say, other medias, even good independent medias, they have their limits, you know, and you don't.
So I really appreciate that. And because I would like to be able to speak with somebody about the spiritual aspect, very strong spiritual element, that is happening in relation to this movement. Yeah,
Richard: you were saying in one of your emails, I think recently to us, Gilbert, that um there's a lot of fracturing sort of going on of the the organization of things, but the spirit is is undeterred.
It just keeps moving forward. Yeah, you know, for
a while after the um either after the psychopathic attack on uh Liberty Square that took place, very violent attack in the middle of the night to force everybody out, I got a little bit worried in the in the weeks after that because it looked like things got really fragmented, really scattered all over the city, people trying to relocate themselves.
There were people staying in the streets, uh some came down with ammonia. I have a couple of friends that I haven't seen for a while, I'm worried about them. There have been some serious consequences to that, more than what people know. And so I was worried about that, but little by little, Rich, I began to notice that uh nobody went away, very few people.
In fact there are still people arriving here from all over the states and uh and there was a little bit of a crisis with the kitchen, we call them the kitchen, you know, their kitchen group, the guys who were preparing food for us every day there at Liberty Square. They went into a bit of a crisis as to whether or not they should break up, disband, you know.
But after a little while they perceived, now wait a minute, nobody went anywhere, so we got to keep cooking, we got to keep preparing food. Now their job is really more difficult because they have to bring what they prepare to different places, you know, different locations where people are staying. And I really admire those guys because now they're really working three times as hard in order to feed everybody.
Now you
Richard: said that that people are still being drawn, still people are still coming from all over the the country, maybe all over the world. What's drawing them, Gilbert? What do you, what's the energy that's bringing them to this, the magnetism that's bringing them to this this movement in New York? You know, energy is
a good word, um because at first I was worried because the thing was so fractured and split up and attacked, but I began to notice that it just kept growing.
It didn't matter, you know, the energy is keeps moving and keeps growing and people are getting more and more determined and pulling more and more people in and they're organized as to the point where nobody knows everything that's going on. There's just too much. It's incredible. And you know, Rich, I was thinking of a study that Dr. Kippe made quite some time ago now about the psychopathology of people with power.
You know, this book that both you and I bring up quite a bit, Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power, this historic book. I call it the historic book because it's the first study ever made about the psychopathology of people who wield economic power, the one percent as we refer to them and as they are referred to in in this book, and it shows clearly that the more imbalanced a person is, the more influenced he is by demonic entities because they're synchronized.
You know, a person who is evil, imbalanced in the sense of being an evil person, he synchronizes with demonic entities and becomes very influenced by them to the point where he doesn't even perceive what's going on, you know, because they're they're like, let's say like synchronized is the best word I can use, you know, so very heavily influenced. So um we notice that the most imbalanced people are in economic power, to put it simply, without going through the whole study.
And they are the most demonic. They're most influenced by demonic entities. So this is a real problem for the social equilibrium, is when we have psychopathic people who got themselves in in power and um I'm not speaking so much about political power as I am economically powerful people because we notice clearly that even the politicians are slaves to the economic power, you know, this little group of uh above the nation's bankers and certain industrialists, these guys who have um uh organized themselves together and who are causing these problems for the politicians, for the humanity in general, for our economy, for the society.
They own uh the media so they put the messages out that they want. This is this is a real problem. I
Richard: think this is too, Gilbert. You know, one of the things I was thinking as I was walking on the street the other day that I think it's, I was dealing with a little bit of these kind of subjects in one of my classes and and the feeling I had was that some of the students feel so overwhelmed by all of the factors that are going on in the world, all of the difficulties, the difference between rich and poor, this huge gap we see now, people not being able to even put food in their mouths at times, this incredible corruption we're seeing economically, the environmental difficulties we see, the political, you're sort of starting into the political campaign for the 2012 election and, you know, there's all these things are sort of happening, Gilbert.
And the feeling I get with students sometimes, maybe people in general, is they kind of throw up their hands in despair and say, what can we do? Some people, but that's not happening at Occupy Wall Street. People are getting out there and saying, no, we can do something about this. We can fight this in some way. This must be gratifying in a way for a revolutionary like yourself.
This is an interesting
point, Rich, because the flip side of this demonic influence that is on the economically powerful people and uh and and the the malefic uh influence this has on society, the flip side to this is that I was thinking, who's controlling this enormous energetic growth that is taking place in what we call the occupying movement? You know, where's that coming from, all of this energy, and no matter how much you attack it it keeps growing and growing and growing.
You know, this this spiritual aspect in this is very interesting and of course um Americans tend to be more active than um people from other countries and so they're more action oriented, you know, with all the problems that we have there are a lot, there are some nutty things that go on all the time um but in general you can see that the essence of the thing, the spirit of the thing is good, it's something very good.
And the powerful who are very heavily influenced by demonic entities, they don't know what to do with this, you know, they're desperately trying to, they don't see the spiritual realm so they're trying to attack people and uh but it's coming from inside of people, it's a spiritual thing, a spiritual climate that is uh going around the entire globe and people are linking to that spirituality in one form or another and in general you can see people protesting against the malefic economic powers, let's say the demonic powers.
So really in the end what it comes down to, Rich, is that we're experiencing a spiritual battle between the creator of all things. Yes, between the creator of all things. And let's name him, you know, the fallen angel, Lucifer, Satan, who is the epitome of what is psychotic, what is psychopathic. I
Richard: think what proves that, Gilbert, I totally agree with you. I think what proves that is that these laws that rule our socioeconomic life today are the most perverse laws possible.
And now they're pushing through, I don't know if it's been put into law yet or not, this National Defense Authorization Act, which gives the military inside the country and even police more power over what they term as terroristic personalities, people who are against the system in some way. So the you know there's there's a clamp down coming energetically. And I think it is influenced by these malefic forces you're talking about. And this movement for Occupy Wall Street, for goodness, is a movement really directly linked to a good spirit, a divine spirit.
We could actually say it that way,
couldn't we? Exactly. And you know as it as it is essentially a spiritual warfare, this um this involves everyone, anyone and everyone who lives on this planet, whether you like it or not. There's no neutral ground, you know, people who are trying to avoid the subject or who think they're being neutral, there's no neutral ground.
Silence um agrees with the 1% whom the octopiars are protesting against. So the question becomes, are you showing yourselves to be a part of the humanity, a part of the 99% who want a better world, of justice, of our rights to pursue happiness as we see it, our rights to the Constitution in terms of American civilization, you know um or you agree what with these little group of uh psychopathic individuals that we call the one percent.
So the divine, the plumb line has been dropped, everyone's going to have to choose one way or another very soon. Yeah,
Richard: I think this is uh really wonderful to to hear, Gilbert. Um I really feel that anyone who defends this present social structure uh there's something really wrong in the way that person's thinking. If we're committed to the social structure that exists now, it's because we think we get benefits from it.
We don't see the harm that this system is doing to us now. And this is really how we can be seduced, I think. And so standing up and being counted in this thing is really, really important. But what really can people do, Gilbert? We're not all going to come there to to Liberty Square and minus 20 degree temperatures. Now what what are you, how are you helping people to to see what they can do next, what the next steps are, what's your what's your current focus these days?
Well,
Rich, you know, as I see it, we're talking here about um developing a consciousness to continue to grow in consciousness of what's happening, because not everybody's perceiving very well what's happening. And not everyone perceives very well that they're a part of the 99%. If I can give a kind of a dramatic example in relation to the police, for example, who are the watchdogs of the powerful, the attack dogs of the powerful, if I can put it that way.
But they don't perceive that. Many of them think that they're enforcing the law, which is good. They don't really have consciousness yet that they're slaves. They're working for a group of sociopaths. And one day, for example, we were in the streets protesting in Brooklyn to take back some bank foreclosed homes, two different homes for families. And at the end of the day, I ended up in a block party in front of a home that we took back for the family.
And, you know, there were not too many police around because we were at least 1,000 people strong and a few different organizations involved in it, together with OWS, as we say, you know, Occupy Wall Street. And there were, like, police up on top of the buildings, you know, observing us and some people, some police mingling with us. So I was having something to eat in the middle of the street and I happened to be standing next to a cop.
And so I was asking him, you know, what's it like serving the 1%? You know, the guy was just standing next to me. So I got into a conversation with him. He was very shocked to know that I'm a pianist. I do concert music. And so I just assured him. I said, look, if you know anybody on the police force who suffers a bank foreclosure on their home, you just tell us and we'll come out and we'll occupy it and win it back for him.
Okay, would you do that? Do you know anybody like that? And the guy got kind of astonished. I was trying to show him that, look, you guys are a part of the 99% Why are you attacking us? So we've got to raise consciousness for everybody. That the 1% are against the people. All of the people, they're against humanity. It's a little bit difficult to see at first.
The degree of mental illness that they have. So that we can liberate ourselves from them. And live in peace with each other. Wonderful.
Richard: It's wonderful to be able to offer that to a policeman. That would, I'm sure, make him maybe surprised and maybe feel kind of gratified in a way. You're doing some work now. I think you have a lecture coming up, Gilbert.
I might produce this, the lecture may have passed, but let me get the details of what you're going to be doing there, and we'll pass them on before the show, if I don't get the show out in time. What's happening there on Sunday?
Yes, the OWS, we've rented classrooms at Pace University, which is here in downtown Manhattan, right next to the Brooklyn Bridge, you know.
And because we're doing a day of teach-ins, as we call them, and I'm going to be showing Dr. Keppe's model, a productivist model, how you can become self-employed groups of people working for yourselves. Because the occupation is all over now. We need this. We need a good personal financial basis in order to continue our activist endeavors. So I'm going to show people how this works, how the productivist model works.
We call them where workers are owners. And this has been a model, a company model that Dr. Keppe has worked on scientifically for years. It's tried and proven. It's not a theory. It's something in experience. And science just verifies whether or not an idea is correct, whether or not it's in reality or not. And so this enterprise is very exciting. It shows people how they can go into business for themselves, working together in this type of model.
And so I'll present that on Sunday. I don't know what time yet. The organizers are still putting up the schedule of that, you know. But this will be very interesting for people. People need work, you know.
Richard: They need work and they need to organize their own jobs and their own ways of making a living because this has tremendous power. I'll be talking with Cláudia Bernhard-Pershaka about that as soon as you and I finish.
We'll get into a little bit more specifics about trilogical enterprises, too.
Yes, good idea, Rich, because everybody needs that. Everybody's out of work. Everybody's complaining about jobs, jobs, jobs. It's not so difficult to go into working for yourself with other people. It can be done more easily than what people think, you know?
Richard: Yes, Gilbert, I think this is very, very true. We have the idea, I think, sometimes, that everything's really okay or not okay, but we just have to change a few things.
And really, we have to restructure the economy and bring it more in line with what are real human values. And this is something that trilogical enterprises do.
This is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head.
I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco has joined me. You know, Cláudia, I was thinking a lot lately because we were watching these... Oh, Will Lajeunesse from Canada is with me, too. Don't want to forget my big Canadian bear here, my friend who has joined us to live here and be with us. Welcome, Will. Cláudia, I've been thinking a lot as the Occupy movement continues, as people are developing this movement, that, you know, we need to start talking about some practical things to do.
I don't want to be occupying a park in minus 20 degrees Celsius weather, you know what I mean? But I'm feeling that somehow we need to move into action. So we could talk a little bit about trilogical enterprises and residences, maybe business today, because as Dr. Keppe has developed in his books, Work and Capital Liberation of the People, and as you've explored in your book, The ABCs of Analytical Trilogy, all those books available on our website by the way, just so I can get a plug in,
Cláudia Bernhardt Pacheco: and by the way, Liberation of the People has these concepts and they are free for download on our
Richard: site, liberationofthepeople.org.
Exactly, so thank you for doing the sales pitch, that's very nice because there's something in Dr. Keppe's work here that nobody understands yet in terms of practical things. I feel the spirit of Dr. Keppe is moving all throughout this movement, but in terms of practical steps. So let's look at what it means to have a trilogical business. When we say trilogical companies, trilogical enterprises, what does Dr.
Keppe mean by this? Oh,
Cláudia: he could name some things, trilogical concepts, by the people, for the people, of the people. Of
Richard: the people, yeah, by the people, for the
Cláudia: people, for the people, right. And it's ethical, aesthetical and spiritual work. That's
Richard: spiritual, uh, we can say
Cláudia: that it's it's a a third way, true third way. And that is not capitalism nor socialism or communism.
It's another another form that gives a lot of respect to the value of work, but at the same time we understand that each individual needs capital to improve his life and society. So we give value also to capital. But this dialectic in Capi's terms is very different. We want to make the people more like people, stronger enterprises, people's enterprises, stronger, and not the state nor the groups, this kind of large corporations or investors or bankers, that one percent.
They don't need to be
Richard: richer than they already are, yeah. And dr kelly talks a lot too about doing work that would benefit the society and also the people who
Cláudia: work in necessity, yeah, yeah. And the other
Richard: principles he talks a lot about are in the area of things like speculation, and there'll be no speculation permitted.
Cláudia: No, not at all. Not at all.
So there is no possibility of a person investing money and taking anything from this kind of company. If they want to invest, it's okay, they're welcome, but if they're going to join or if they're going to be an emeritus donator, like if they want to help society so they can donate. But they cannot, if they give us a loan, they will not have interest on that.
Richard: They won't receive back
Cláudia: money with interest. They can invest their money in the enterprise where they are going to be partners or to work in. And then they can receive back as the enterprise grows economically, gets better. And so they can get this money back with just this, the principle, the correction of
Richard: inflation, inflation, just that, yeah, yeah. So
Cláudia: if there's been inflation over five years, then the benefits he will get are many, because they're going, he's going to have an enterprise of his own where he's going to get his profits like of his work.
He's going to be happy because he's going to work in his own office and his own enterprise. He's going to be healthier, he's going to be happy to help other people. So it's it's a tremendous improvement in all areas. Many people
Richard: have the idea that having their own business would be a terrible thing, so we want to deal with that. But first just let me quote something that he wrote in his book sociopathology, which also has a a great section on trilogical enterprises.
That book we don't have in english yet. Will we have to get that published, but he says in here, Dr. Keppe quoting now, my intention in forming trilogical enterprises is that of bringing to consciousness the attitude of the evil socially powerful so that over time the people themselves would assume positions of power in a correct way. I truly believe that any country that adopts these enterprises will develop enormously, because they will generate a great increase and diversification of activity and two, an incredible growth of capital, this time based on something real, i.e work, not speculation, yeah.
It's beautifully put, isn't it, yeah. We will benefit because the work that we're doing now is work is work for ourselves,
Cláudia: yes, and we can we can please all um the uh right wing people and the right minded people and we can please the left wing or left minded people in in a way, Richard, because we understand that individuals must have their own capital and their own properties.
So this idea that society must provide everything. And society would be the big boss of everybody and the big mother and feeding them, like all the time creating dependent citizens that are not free to enterprise, to be entrepreneurs, to create, to make their own work and their own lives as they please. So the concept of being able to have one own business and one own property and one own...
Richard: Investment in what you're doing.
Cláudia: Patrimonio. How do you say patrimonio?
Richard: It's like an inheritance in a way. You're building an equity inside your
Cláudia: home. Yes, yes. And to your family, to yourself, to your city, and to your country. This will benefit a country as a whole. And this is in one hand. So property is very much important. ...property, but not in the terms that we see today.
And in this sense, we please the left-minded people, understanding that the injustice is immoral. So a society, Keppe says the following, a society that has just one person on the street, just
Richard: one homeless,
Cláudia: is doomed to be a failure. It failed.
Richard: Yeah. In other words, everybody has to be looked after.
Cláudia: Everybody must have the fundamental needs to survive and to study and to grow and to produce.
So house, food, clothing, education, health must be provided by a common fund that would be the government to deal with this with low taxes. And if there is this interest that people would build up a tissue of society that is so much active, a lot of things would be constructed, fixed, provided by individuals. So governments would not have to have that big responsibility anymore.
Enterprises would provide things that normally the government does. And so as we do, we in our companies, we provide things that the government should be providing. So instead of complaining and fighting against the government because the government is not using the taxes properly, we in our companies, we provide to everybody the essential needs so they can have room and mind and emotional balance to produce something of quality and necessity and useful for their fellow man, for
Richard: himself, for his family.
Let's think about that. Will, you could talk a little bit about that. You've been here for a week now, a little over a week. And your experience in Trilogical Enterprises is what compared to what you had when you had your own business? And he had his own business in
Edmonton. Yeah, I mean, business owners in the rest of the world outside of Trilogy here in Brazil, the first thing that comes to mind is stress, very stressful, constantly trying to make ends meet and bring in more income, find employees who are competent, who we can work with to bring in the income and the services.
There's a huge tax burden in Canada, especially businesses are taxed a large amount, small businesses. It's very difficult to be happy, to want to build your business. My business got to a point where I didn't want it to grow anymore because it was too much stress. And here in Brazil, everybody who's in the business is a part owner. It's totally different. The energy is different.
The creativity and the production of the group is so much better. Also, when you're a business owner, you're left kind of holding the bag, as they say, where you're responsible for all these people underneath you. Trilogical enterprise is so much, I'd say, secure, more secure.
Richard: I'm trying to think how we do that, Cláudia. I think the people who work within our companies
Cláudia: have an idea.
Something that is very important, Richard,
Richard: and as he was speaking, it's not a good business to have your own business. If you are small or medium size. Because the amount of taxes, the responsibilities with your employees, it's so big.
Cláudia: And you don't have in your employees people that are going really to be full-time at your side. The problem of envy, the problem of competition, the problem of sabotage, the problem of, is he benefiting from me so I will do my, the least possible and get the
Richard: maximum from this job.
So we
have enemies inside a company, not partners. So in a trilogical situation, when you have everybody involved in a company as partners, they don't necessarily make the same amount of money from the company. It depends on the importance of his work in the company. And everybody agrees in this situation. Everybody who is reasonably sensible, it's going to say, okay, so this guy must make a little bit more than the others or some more, not that much more, because of his responsibility and dedication.
So everybody will, like in a general assembly, we have general assemblies every week where all the partners discuss about the interest of all. So the interest of the enterprise is the same as the interest for all, Because individuals, they belong to this sense of security that he speaks about is a solidity of a cell that is a trilogical enterprise, a trilogical company.
It must
Cláudia: be so solid as a small country where you can, or a small city or a small town, where you can go and you have your friends, you have your sustained, secure, like you have
Richard: everything basic. What you need for sustenance, your basic
Cláudia: needs, yes. And you have more. You have the freedom to accomplish. And you have the, of course, everything must be decided in a common way.
So everybody will work for similar ends and goals. So everybody working for a common goal
Richard: and having private benefits from this. It's a combination that Keppe succeeded in developing that is incredible. Because, for instance, if you have a salary and taxes to pay for each new employee, it's such a burden. A huge.
Cláudia: A huge. And then you may go bankrupt because you have to pay the salaries and you don't have profits enough.
But if you have partners, and
Richard: if for some problem, at that time, at that month, at that period, they cannot get the same amount as they usually do. Income is lower. So they can change. They begin to work together, to be flexible, to stretch, to change, to
Cláudia: adapt. Teacher today, you may become a secretary tomorrow if necessary. And you can cover the work
Richard: of other people that cannot do because it's the profit for all.
And if there is anyone that is lazy or making sabotage, you will not work as a common employee. We will work out this in the Consciousness of Errors program where everybody will treat that as a pathology and we'll try to correct. Because one of the big things we have the advantage of here is we have a group. Every week. Every week, twice a week.
And we have very wise guides in you and Dr. Keppe who can orient. And I'm thinking people who are thinking of starting this, is it overwhelming for them to think, how are we going to control all of this pathology? No, it's not much
Cláudia: control. You see, for instance, you see this movement, Occupy Wall Street movement. Yeah, exactly. So you see already many cells being born in many cities.
And you don't have necessarily one guide. You need to have good rules. And if you have the good laws and the good rules, this democracy can work. If there are no good rules and orientation, so the democracy becomes an anarchy, which is
Richard: not good for anyone. It's very destructive. So you
Cláudia: don't need necessarily a coordinator. You need good laws and good rules so everybody will watch that those good rules will be followed.
Richard: And those rules would be basing our salary, our business, on work, on production. Productivity. Not on management.
Cláudia: No, productivity. Yeah. And when Dr. Keppe calls his method as productivism, he doesn't mean that productivism, that old concept that it's, oh, my God. So you have to produce and produce no matter what, and the more the better, and to consume and to consume. And this is absolutely the opposite of what Keppe says.
He speaks about concentrated work of quality, necessity, beauty. So if you can dry up a company and be with three people working in a high production level and quality, It's much better than 100 doing very little. So those 97 individuals will be in other areas producing other necessities and things that are of quality and concentration. The
Richard: other thing I think that's very important in a trilogical business, because we're talking about businesses that provide something for the society, we need a lot of humility in a way.
You know, there's so much megalomania around business today. I want to build this multinational company like Steve Jobs. I've got this idea, and I want to build a company and sell it for $56 billion. And Dr. Keppe gives a lot of value to work in our companies, to doing real work that benefits people. So it's a humble position. In one
Cláudia: way, it's a humble.
In another way, it gives honor and dignity.
Richard: This is what I
Cláudia: think, too. It gives you freedom, and even financial freedom, which being an employee doesn't give you. You will be always a slave and be dependent on bosses, and they can humiliate you a lot. Companies can really humiliate you, and I have seen and attended clients that worked, gave their souls, and they gave their lives to the company, and then in a sudden, boom, they're fired.
And they have nothing to do, nothing left because nobody will hire them anymore and they are like retired. So it's a death, a condemnation of death. This is very depressive, very immoral, this way of dealing with human beings. So if you talk to people generally, employees, if you tell them you can have your own enterprise, they will say, me? Never. How come?
I'll never be capable to do this. I would i don't have money, i don't have capital, i don't have like a structure to do this, and so they don't have confidence, they don't trust, so they are very humiliated all the time, and so they don't trust in their capacity and the results, the power of their work. And this is very important and necessary.
And as long as two, three or more people get united, get together to follow these rules, Richard, it's no way that they are not getting very soon more money than they were getting through their being an employee and and having sellers. But this is
Richard: clear, very clear to me. And our our soul is at rest somehow. When i first came to brazil and i started to do the work that i was doing here, uh, i felt a sense of um a clarity because everything's freed up.
You you're focused on producing for your company, not for what the boss... Because now, what happens today? The guy's producing reports for the next guy up the line, and then that guy produces reports for the next guy up the line. Nobody's doing the work to serve the customer. And the person who is doing the work to serve the customer is treated the worst in the company.
He's at the very bottom. You
Cláudia: have totally freedom, total freedom, to produce as many hours as you want. Yes. Because
Richard: you have your house taken care by the
Cláudia: company, by the company, because they pay for fashioners,
Richard: housekeepers, housekeepers. And this comes from our work.
Cláudia: Yes, everything. It's the enterprise that provides trilogical residential sets that are reasonable, that are organized. So there is a person taking care of the laundry, and there is a person taking care of the food.
And buying food and going to the supermarket takes a long time
of
Cláudia: your day. And preparing
food, and then washing dishes, and da-da-da-da-da. So you don't need to be worried because there is a nutritionist that is paid to do that. So you have people that take care of the cars, and you have a frota de
Richard: carros. A fleet, a fleet of
Cláudia: cars for the
Richard: company, and the children of the workers are taken care by drivers, yes, people to drive them to school,
Cláudia: private drivers, yeah.
They bring them to school, they pick up them from school, so the people can, people in the partners don't worry what is happening with my children, who's taking care of them, they have babysitters, yeah. And what's
Richard: happening with my clothes, i don't have clean clothes to wear, and that's being,
Cláudia: they're being cleaned, yes. And you have like um leisure, you have a common place to like, you have by the way here we have a beautiful hotel in a in a in a place
Richard: uh in a beautiful uh area in
Cláudia: the country, in
Richard: in the the area where we have all these mineral waters.
It's uh how do
Cláudia: you say this in english, those cities that in germany it's a spot, so where there is this thermal
Richard: waters,
Cláudia: yes, thermal touristic places. So we have a hotel in here just to to serve the people in our company, yeah. If they want to bring
Richard: friends and if those friends are reasonable and accepted by everybody. They will bring contribution with their art.
You know what's enormous and what's incredible about this? We have an enormous individual wealth because of this, because of the collective wealth. It's the
Cláudia: collective wealth that brings the individual value and meaning. Yeah, because here, this is the law. And in the country, people go to the government to take for them what they can. They suck and suck. And banking, they suck the people.
They suck the government. They suck the structure of the company. They think, what I can get from this government, what I can get from the people, what I can take for me. So they do like a corn... They
Richard: eat... Corn cob. They eat up all the corn and they throw away... The cob. The cob. So this is what people do with their countries.
They do with their enterprises many times the same thing. So they want to take, take, take, take everybody taking. And in this, we disinverted the flow of the goods. So what must be powerful and solid is the company, is the nucleus, is the group, which provides then the necessity of each one. Bank, if you need a loan, your enterprise will have a bank to provide you some loan with no interest.
You don't need a credit card if you need something that you cannot afford. So you go to the bank of the company and you ask to loan some amount of money. And everybody in the company provides, like contribute to the bank. Cláudia, are there any particular types of, we're running close to the end of our time, you have to leave now. But are there any types of businesses particularly that are conducive to trilogical enterprises?
I'm thinking of the people listening, thinking about what could I do? What kind of business could I
Cláudia: start? They can do anything. They can be just one, they can be three, they can be a hundred, they can be a thousand if they have the right rules. And they can do anything. They can be lawyers, they can be liberal professionals, anything. Everything that is producing goods.
Richard: And services.
Cláudia: And services and good for society and quality work and constructing society, artistic things. Yes. Anything can be like this, anything.
Richard: Anything that we need already is already available in society. Under
Cláudia: these rules that are idealistic rules, cooperation instead of competition, no speculation, no exploitation, no pathology of power allowed.
Richard: Control of the pathology of all people.
Cláudia: Ethical.
Richard: Ethics. It's a fantastic
Cláudia: vision
for a new world.
And I understand Gilbert Gambucci is very excited to be developing these types of work structures in New York, bringing them back, actually, from when Dr. Keppe and the Brazilians lived there in the mid-1980s. If you're interested in that, if you have friends in New York who might be interested in this too, make sure you get in touch with me. My email is joneshealing at gmail.com.
Our program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're broadcasting from the International Society of Analytical Trilogy in São Paulo, Brazil. My name is Richard Lloyd Jones, and we're back next week with another edition of Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Bye for now.
