Richard Lloyd Jones: I'm Richard Lloyd Jones, and this is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. Well, I'm fresh from the march in support of Occupy Wall Street that occurred down here in São Paulo on Saturday, October 15th. We were part of over 1,500 events in 82 countries, some of them quite large, I understand. I was manning a bullhorn down here along with colleagues from our NGO, the STOP the Destruction of the World Association, and we were chanting out in Portuguese, English, Spanish, and Italian as we joined in the fight.
So if I'm sounding a little hoarse today, that's the reason. We were a small but enthusiastic group down here, about 100 or so, but this small group is not indicative of a lack of interest. Earlier last week, on a national holiday, there were larger protests, including 10,000 or so in São Paulo, marching against political corruption. Now, Brazil is not noted as an activist culture.
Even in South America, Brazilians are less vocal than Argentinians, say, or Chileans. But Brazil does have a great tool needed for the new society, Dr. Norberto Keppe's Science of Analytical Trilogy. I'd love to explore the application of that science today. Occupy Wall Street's missing link today on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. You know, I haven't been hearing from as many people as I would like to in response to our programs lately.
I would encourage you to connect with us. My email is joneshealing at gmail.com.
I think we need to get more viral buzz going about Keppe's book, Liberation of the People. This is the first study ever conducted of the psychosocial pathology of the people in power. And that makes it essential reading for anyone interested in learning the roots of the crisis we're in today, so we can know how to step out into change in the correct way.
These psychotics in power are smart, and they'll usurp the whole thing to maintain power while moving around the furniture a little to make it look like things are changing, if we're not smart this time. What Liberation of the People sets out to accomplish is the greatest revolution in the history of mankind, which is to turn civilization around by means of two processes.
One, through heightened individual awareness and a more accurate perception of our own human problems, individual. And two, and this is perhaps the most important, through consciousness of sociopathology. You see, our problems today are psychological and sociopathological. They're not structural. We want, individually and collectively, to earn money by doing as little as possible. Isn't that the psychological route of money speculation? Or buying lottery tickets?
We have this idea that this is smart. Only a stupid person works for money. The smart guy gets money to work for him, goes the common money management wisdom. But there's something unethical and even immoral. In this thinking, and it's an inverted idea too, because money should rightly come from work, not from money or minuscule fluctuations in currency rates or credit default swaps or any of the other sophisticated investment instruments invented by financial engineers and then foisted off dishonestly as legitimate business.
I'd like to really encourage some debate and discussion about those things, so do get in touch with us through our social media and check out our website too. You'll find much more information there.
Dr Keppe has been writing and speaking about the inverted values behind psychosocial pathology for 50 years, and specifically about the economic decadence we are suffering as a result since the 1980s when he lived in New York. This is what we're going to explore today. My colleague Gilbert Gambucci was there with him. He joins me for our first segment today. Gilbert, sort of put us in the picture.
How was that experience as you guys were down there? And then I know you want to link it to Occupy Wall Street, which I think is really, really interesting. So put us into the picture. How was it there? What was it like when you guys were doing all that protesting and trying to bring consciousness to the American people?
Gilbert Gambucci: Yeah, you know, Rich, it might be a little bit difficult at first for people to perceive that the Occupy Wall Street that's happening now began in New York in 86, to be specific, with a team of 70 people who did a nationwide campaign bringing up consciousness about the pathology of powerful people, specifically economic power.
And it's very interesting because the manifesto of the Occupy Wall Street is exactly this. They're differentiating between economic power and political power. That's why apparently they're there at Wall Street, because they want Washington to respond. You know, why are these powerful people allowed to dominate our civilization, dominate the political sector? You know, they want the politicians to respond. And, you know, Rich, before 86, this consciousness did not exist.
You know, economic power and political power were all seen as one thing. You know, capitalism was democracy. Democracy was capitalism. And this campaign was launched around a book of Norberto Chieppe, this book that you talk about a lot, The Pathology of Power. It's called Liberation of the People, The Pathology of Power. And even though we did a nationwide campaign and affected thousands of people and we even had the solution to the problem of economic power oppressing the people which was at that time we Dr.
Keppe had called it the trilogical enterprises. Now he refers to it as productivism, productive enterprise, which essentially is how to work a scientific structure for an enterprise working whereby you're not exploited by anybody and you don't exploit anyone. It's a more just system, and we had 17 or 18 enterprises going with this format. It was fantastic, and um of course we were banned from the media, and because we were opening up the game, uh one of the chapters of this book, Liberation of the People, is called The Media in Power.
Just to give you an idea, I'm quoting now from the book. It says, large corporations buy out the media in order to control the market. Gulf and Western, for example, bought out Paramount. Paramount is a cinema. They even buy up the cinema, right? Exxon, which is a Rockefeller family, bought out Metro-Golden-Mayer. Murdoch is known to own a chain of television stations. Such facts show that the people are manipulated in conformity with the economic interests of these groups.
So, of course, as we were talking about the intentions of these economically powerful, we were banned from the media. And, in fact, at a certain point, we started getting attacked by these powerful people because the movement was really taking force among the New Yorkers and other people nationwide. And so as a kind of self-defense, the doctors, I call them the doctors because also Dr.
Keppe, let's say his right-hand assistant, Dr. Cláudia Pacheco, who is also a brilliant social scientist and psychoanalyst, They study social pathology, linking that with the psychological pathology. It's the only science that makes a correlation between social problems and psychological pathology. And so as a result, we have a more profound understanding of the human being and society, what happens exactly. So they launched a dossier showing um the the drug trafficking, the arms for drug traffic that was happening in new york city at that time, and in fact we stumbled across it uh quite by accident.
Between the 42nd and 46 streets in there, there's a lot of um fake front uh companies that do this kind of trafficking. And actually it was senator john carey, carey, who picked up on this, and then later a guy named jack blum uh was the head of the commission. I don't know if you remember this, um the the iran scandal where uh this colonel oliver north was imprisoned, iran,
Richard: iran contra affair, right,
Gilbert: yes, this, you know. And there was another military guy, um he was actually a former national security advisor, john poindexter.
They were, they were imprisoned as a result, and what happened, they were given a presidential pardon by the next president, george bush senior. And so even at that time we were noticing that the pact between economic power and political power was too much, it was too heavy, and so this was in the 80s, right. And so in relation to the occupy wall street, there's a consciousness that we need to have um in order to, in order for the movement to continue to grow successfully, right.
And that is, nowadays the political sector is the same thing as economically powerful people, you know. The economic powers have infiltrated completely the political sector. Some guys there who are still politicians, they've sold their souls to the economic power. To put it simply, we can say like this, 99 of the politicians are the one percent, you know, and there, there are 1% there who are still.
Human. Who are a part of us. We, the 99%. So, you can't... The reason I mention this is because we see people kind of like demonstrating in front of their senators or governmental people as though they're going to do something for us. When it is they who are the very people who are creating the injustices and who are downsizing our civilization. Not only the economic sector, they are downsizing all sectors of our civilization in order to better control the population.
Okay, so another premise of Dr. Keppe's book is that he shows that these people, the psychological condition of these people, you know, they are psychotic. That is to say, they are seriously mentally disturbed. And this is a consciousness that the movement needs to get in order for it to continue to grow successfully. Okay, this can be found very well in Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power.
Richard: It's all there, Gilbert. The whole thing is laid out about socioeconomic power and how that's infiltrated politics and how we've actually lost the political structure of our country. We've lost this democratic part because of this sort of being usurped by the economic power. So this is very important to understand. I think the guys on Occupy Wall Street seem to understand that inherently.
But I think they don't really have an understanding yet of the full extent of the pathology of power, which would really help them. So I appreciate you bringing that to us today.
Gilbert: You know, in the 80s, when this movement began, we were a group of 70 people. And we are still very active until today, even more so. And we had to escape from New York at that time because we were attacked.
So it's very nice to see the thing come back up again in greater number at this point, you know. And so I would just like to say to anybody who has activated themselves in this Occupy Wall Street or in whatever city is that I want you to know this is for sure. This is for certain that the founding fathers of our nation are with you.
They are there with you. And other people who follow in that line, you know, Lincoln is there. You can be sure that John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, they are there. Martin Luther King, he is there with you. And so stick it out until the end because the 99% will prevail. It's a question of time.
Richard: Yes, Gilbert. And I think in this moment, as we're sort of gaining strength in this movement, we can see that there will soon start to be a lot of attacks, as there was against you guys in New York.
And it's very important at this moment that people really pull together and hold together and remember the spirit of the founding fathers, the Kennedys, the Martin Luther Kings, who kept people together in tough times. I think this is really important. So it's a great message you're bringing us today. Rich,
Gilbert: you know what was the spirit of the Founding Fathers? To put it simply, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.
Richard: I seem to remember a few football coaches calling on that one, too. That's wonderful, Gilbert. And I can't stress enough the importance of the wisdom in Keppe's work in all of this. It seems we have reached an impasse in humanity. There's something fundamentally wrong with our society, as the many stories being articulated on the Occupy Wall Street site will attest to, not to mention the heart-wrenching daily stories in many parts of the developing world.
And it seems we've not discovered what's wrong, really. We've sought answers in various economic systems, through ecological political initiatives, through religious fundamentalism, even through military means, but our difficulties continue to multiply. But humanity has been following an inverted way of life in all this time, and this makes life hard and solutions impossible. If a few people begin to perceive this in a short time, larger groups will form and eventually all of society will come to live in peace.
A great hope and a great need for us to stay connected and communicate with each other. We are back in just a moment. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're on Conscious Planet Radio. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones. Back in a moment. Don't go away. The program is Thinking with Somebody Else's Head. We're on Conscious Planet Radio. I'm Richard Lloyd Jones.
We are looking at Occupy Wall Street, particularly the missing link. What I feel is missing in a lot of the discourse is a knowledge of Norberto Keppe's psychosociopathology, the science of psychosociopathology, which we're discussing today. Gilbert led us off, and now I've got a panel to join us here. First time we've done this, actually, with a panel of guests on the program.
Susan Berkley is an entrepreneur, owner of the great Voice Company. Monene Daly-Hart is a radio host and voiceover actor. Kelly Maurice is the director of an educational NGO down here in Brazil. Will Lajeunesse, a small business owner, the great site manager of our Healing Through Consciousness site, and soon to be joining us down here in Brazil. Okay, I want to get sort of a quick take from all of you who are on the call as to how you see Occupy Wall Street.
What are the things that are standing out to you about this movement just here at the beginning, and especially related to how you see it related to Dr. Keppe's work. Susan, we'll start with you. I'll introduce you one by one so you all know how to fit into this whole matrix of things we're doing. How do you see it, Susan? What's happening?
Susan Berkley: Well, I think Gilbert brought up a great point earlier that there's a big difference between democracy and capitalism that we take for granted, and the two have become conflated. And you see this with the kids. Um there is um they are intuitively and also inspired by dr Keppe's work, which you know thousands of books were distributed almost 30 years ago, and who knows where these books ended up, um but certainly by resonance, that um they are wanting to rebuild society and um you know get rid of the sickest among us, which are the um the one percent that is controlling everything.
So I think the most important point here, Rich, well, some things that we're noticing about these groups is that they, within Zuccotti Park in New York, they're actually starting their own, like, little mini society, which is actually well-organized. So it's a seed of what I think can happen. You know, they have their own sanitation. They have their own library, even. They have their own little medical center within this.
They're making a point of not, you know, there are some rabbles and things that show up, but basically they're showing and I think they're demonstrating how the people can reorganize themselves in a healthy way. But I think, Rich, that the key point is that nobody is addressing, except this book, The Liberation of the People and Dr. Keppe's work, is that power is pathological.
And there is that the powerful people are really sick, and this needs to be brought out and conscientized. Otherwise, people who are trying to rebuild society are, in a way, they're not going to make those lasting changes, and they're kind of doomed to repeat it, or this new movement is going to kind of fall apart for lack of focus, because they don't really understand this point.
And
Richard: by the way, they don't want to change the name. They want to keep with Liberty Park. This came out in the paper today. They're staying with Liberty Park, which I think fits in beautifully with Liberation of the People. Monine, you were up in Boston and you went to the Occupy Wall Street protests and things happening there. How are you seeing all this?
Well, it's a little bit of a different scene in Boston. There's not as much of organization and a representation of what they're actually asking for. But what there is is energy and upset and the need to take action. And I think this is so wonderful when we can look to these three books that Dr. Keppe wrote in the mid-'80s, Liberation of the People, Decay of the American People, and Work and Capital, because not only is there analysis of the problems, there's answers to the problems, too, and that's what we're looking for.
I think it's so interesting that Susan and Gilbert both were talking about looking at these people, the 1%, the people in power, that they are so sick. And this is sort of how the megacorporations have been able to manipulate everything from the background. They sort of use the 14th Amendment, if you will, to say, oh, I am a person and I have these rights.
But that person is sick, is pathological, and these people are experiencing financial problems the same way those of us on Main Street are. Their bills are just bigger, and their pathology is larger, and so the vacuum becomes bigger. And people are seeing this now because the examples are greater. So this is encouraging. I think that there is real, real activism and real awareness going on.
There just needs to be leadership and answers. And thank goodness for the science of Dr. Keppe. We can have this conversation today.
Richard: Yes, exactly right. And Kelly, you're an American living in Brazil, so you have a perspective from outside the country. How is it looking to you? What are you seeing there as you look at the situation?
Well, it's very exciting to me.
I mean, not being there is unfortunate, but being able to read about it in the papers and finally seeing it come out more in the mainstream press is encouraging. I think it took a long time. Long time to get there, but happy to see it these days. Very, very much present. So I've been following it as much as I can from afar, and it's a very exciting time.
Richard: What do you think they need to know from Dr. Keppe's work, Kelly, from your perspective, that would help them to be more effective in what they're doing there?
Well, I don't know. I think that the quote that you mentioned about the 1% and the 99% in the beginning of the talk in your opening is perfect because Dr. Keppe started talking about that 20 years ago, and today everybody else is talking about it.
So I think it sort of begs the question about the need for all of us to go back and review what he was trying to communicate with us way back then. And it's taken us this long to come around. It sort of reminds me of that quote that was so popular last week about the Steve Jobs quote, how we only can connect the dots sometimes looking backwards.
Richard: Very interesting. So we're going to have more comments about Dr. Keppe's work from then, but I want to get our Canadian in here. Will, are we having a similar movement in Canada? Is there some kind of resonance with what's happening in Wall Street occurring in Canada today?
Absolutely. We're seeing cities all over Canada, Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary. People are organizing and they are peacefully demonstrating what they have to say about the corruption they see in not only the U.S., but Canada as well.
Many people don't realize, but Canada also was a part of these bailouts. They bailed out General Motors, you know, the Canadian taxpayers on the hook also. And our economy is tied directly to the United States. I think 75, 80 percent of our economy is tied directly to what goes on, you know, south of the border. So it's very important to us that, you know, this corruption is exposed and dealt with.
Richard: Yeah, very good. Okay, so look, guys, one of the things Dr. Keppe was saying to me today when I was talking to him about this, what we're going to be doing today, is that he perceives that there's a lot of focus on the political problem, and a lot of the protest is sort of focused on changing the political aspect of this. But he says that there's another part that we need to go deeper into, see, and that's the fact of the economic system, that this has been set up and really dominated by secret societies, various economic interests in mind.
So susan, i want to come back to you, how are you seeing that it's not just a political
Susan: problem, is it? It's not, um i think, i think the whole banking problem is an example that everybody can understand and relate to, uh the way that the banking, this whole thing about the tarp, you know, that that uh we had the bailout, that all of a sudden billions and billions of dollars appeared to help the banks.
This, i think, is because we, we don't, i personally, i'm not an economist, it's difficult to understand um you know economics as as a thing, you know, i just understand what goes on in my business and that you know taxes and mortgages and things like that, but um the point being that uh there is a lot of, you know, the power comes with it, along with power comes pathology, and uh greed and envy and hatred and dishonesty.
So um you know people, very few people perceive that uh that we're governed by the sickest individuals. I think that they're, that they are intuitively perceiving it, because they're camping out in front of the banks, you know, and that to them is the nexus of where this whole thing uh comes, because as kelly says, you know, this hindsight is is kind of 2020, but now people are starting to really feel it in their pocketbook, uh when they're losing their homes, they're unable to pay their mortgage.
The whole thing seems vastly unfair. And I think Keppe brings this understanding of where these problems originate. Let me just use
Richard: a quote from Dr. Keppe's book about that, Susan, about how the power have usurped everything in our society. He says in his book, Liberation of the People, that the power that rightfully belongs to the many has been taken by the few in detriment to all.
The power that belongs to other people has been usurped by a few hundred more ambitious and voracious individuals who use that power to impede man's happiness. As socioeconomic power grows, crime and delinquency increase proportionately as a counterbalance to such power. And this is how Keppe sees it directly, that this pathology of power has been taken from the people. Kelly, do you have some thoughts about that?
I'm interested in your ideas about how socioeconomic power is dominant in our society, how that has happened, because, you know, I remember when there was this enormous movement to deregulate the financial system. Alan Greenspan, particularly, was a huge proponent of this. And this seems to me to be a very, like, it was like a planned thing for a long time to take away the regulations that were put into the financial system after the Great Depression and the crash of 29.
And I just wonder how you see that, because that's like it's not something that just happened, you know, by chance. It was something that was organized, talked about, planned.
That's right. The deregulation was definitely, it seems, a plan to, you know, for all of the fallout to happen in the banks. And it looks very much like it wasn't just happenstance. And a lot of people were warning about it for a long time, were talking about it in the market.
But the people in power and in influential positions didn't listen, didn't want to heed. And here we are today, you know. And then again, with the bailout for the banks, the big excuse was that they were going to, you know, needed to bail out the banks so that the banks could keep lending. Well, are they still lending? No. So, you know, a lot of the rhetoric we're seeing again later, it doesn't really, it's not coherent.
Richard: And I think that this really speaks then to what we were talking about at the very beginning, that we need to understand that these are like kind of pathological people who are making these decisions. It seems the same mistake that Adam Smith made when he kind of created capitalism all those years ago. He suggested that a person who knew how to make money should be encouraged to do that because he would also know how to make it for others.
And this is a big mistake because it doesn't take into account the psychopathology. That we have a psychopathology that dominates. People who have a desire to make more money, they want to make more money at the expense of others, not to give it to other people. You
Susan: know, I want to give an example, Rich, that maybe this will shed a little bit of light and hopefully you can use it.
I'm a member of a group of... I subscribe to a newsletter, and the company that publishes it has about 20,000 subscribers, and the subscribers are all small business owners and entrepreneurs. And recently, the owner of that company sold the company to a venture capital firm, and he received, I don't know exactly how much, but it was in the tens of millions of dollars.
And he was scheduled to speak at a conference. We were all looking forward to his participation, and he suddenly retired. And he basically, the message that everybody is getting, that he now, he he cashed out, he's got his bags of millions, and the rest of us, yeah, you know, that's just the way it works in a capitalistic society, and i thought that this was very strange, but a lot of my colleagues, my business owner colleagues, are like, nobody got, was upset or noticed, they were like, oh i would do the same thing, you know.
So really at the end of the day, it's like this is a game, capitalism is a game about collecting marbles, and at the end the one who has the most marbles wins at the end, and and it's so like, what do we do, aren't we serving one another anymore, like isn't that the whole point. So i think that there's this confusion that uh Gilbert was talking about earlier, and if not a confusion, a deliberate takeover, replacement of the concepts of democracy with these ideas of capitalism that I think we don't fully understand.
Great example, Susan.
Richard: I need to take a break. I'm sorry to cut in. And we'll come back to talk more about this because now you're raising the question of psychopathology and our sort of pact with that, which I think is interesting. So we're back in just a moment. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head is on Conscious Planet Radio. We're back in a moment, don't go away.
Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, we're on Conscious Planet Radio. We're doing something I think exciting today, on a conference call with a number of our good friends, trying to talk about what's happening around the world related to Occupy Wall Street, especially this movement in the United States, to. Thank you. Try to wrest power from the 1% that's controlling everything and give it to the 99% who are feeling exploited and like they're not being looked after in this situation.
So we have Susan Berkley, Kelly Maurice, Will Lajeunesse, and Monine Daily Heart with me talking about this further. And I want to get some further views from you guys. I remember Dr. Keppe saying one time in his book when I first started to read Liberation of the People, that he said, we have the idea that if left to their own devices, people will automatically do good things for the society.
And Dr. Keppe said, but it's not like that. If left to his own devices, the human being will try to trick and exploit his fellow man and needs to be controlled and conscientized of this. And this is a key element of the psychopathology Dr. Keppe brings. And I want to get some initial perspectives from you about that. Will, I'll start with you.
How do you see that in looking at Dr. Keppe's work? I
think Dr. Keppe's work, it immediately goes to the root of the problem. And this is unlike anyone else, unlike any other thinker, probably since Christ. And he exposes that it's not only the powers that be, the politicians, you know, the corporate interests that are the problem. It's the people also and the pacts that we make with the powerful.
And we create this sick society through this individual sickness, and um we're seeing the results of it today in our economic system. Um uh you know North America doesn't want to work anymore, and um Dr Keppe was more the very first people to see this and to write about it, you know, more than 50 years ago.
Richard: Monine, you know, this is kind of a, kind of a shocking thing for us to think about, that we have intentions that are not always honorable.
You know, when I first started to understand that in myself, wow, that was a big adventure to go on. But as I began to see that in myself, it was easier for me to understand it in terms of the pathology of power. Are you finding the same experience as you go through your own process of analyzing yourself and your life? Well,
absolutely, absolutely.
As a wife, a mother, a small business owner, a citizen, a parent in the public school education, I mean, you really read Dr. Keppe's work and gain some consciousness about all of the levels of pathology that are out there. And sort of the dumbing down, the systemized dumbing down in the education system is kind of apparent. That's something that really has been a hard wake-up call for me.
And
Richard: all this relates, Kelly, to our individual problems, right? What we don't see in ourselves, we don't see in those in front of us. So we don't ascribe bad intentions to the sort of the powerful, the economic system, these kinds of meetings that go on in the back rooms, we don't ascribe bad intentions to them, because we don't see those bad intentions in ourselves.
How do you see
that? Well, as you speak of this, Rich, I think about, you know, Dr Keppe's talking about inversion. He put this name to to this quality in ourselves and in our society in 1977, and this issue about inversion, you know, basically us as fallen beings, we're upside down, we're not as we were originally designed, and we don't behave and we don't act as we were originally designed to behave. And unless we see this in ourselves and unless we see this in our society, it's very very difficult that anything will be different over time.
Richard: Is is this missing, susan, from wall street, this consciousness, is there some understanding of that from the group that you've met down there, or is there still a long way to go in understanding this psychopathology reflected out into society? A long way to
Susan: go yet? Oh, very, very long way to go, because people really, truly do not understand what sickness is. But, you know, one thing I want to share, Rich, my father passed away recently.
He was a very wealthy man. He was a multimillionaire. And on his deathbed, what he said was the thing he most regretted in life was getting paid for work he did not do. And I think that that is, that consciousness that he had at the end is perhaps the core of the problem of these people. They want to get paid for work that they're not doing.
And not only that, they're stealing, you know, they've stole. And we, the people, because every human being, I think, has a little bit of this in them, hidden or even obvious. We think that that's a great idea. You know, unconsciously we think that's a great idea. And even I'm seeing some of that. I mean, as a caution, I think it's so beautiful what everybody is doing now, waking up and organizing and speaking out about this, not just the kids but even working people.
But I think deep down people think that, um, you know what, that's a, that's a good idea. These people, these young people have to be cautioned. There is no handout. There's a lot of people saying, I want my job. Where's mine? Where's mine? Where's mine? The government bailed out Wall Street. I want my bailout. But it's not about that. People have to work to get, not just to get money, but to be healthy, to make a contribution.
That is what a rich life is all about. And not doing that is a sickness because we're made to work we're made to contribute we're made to share to build ourselves in a way that we can share our talents and our abilities with others. Yeah in
Richard: a way we could say that this um system of exploitation and where people are investing money only to make money this kind of speculation this comes in a way from the every human being's idea that "I want to get something for nothing.
I mean I want to buy a I want to buy a one dollar lottery ticket and win 76 million dollars. I mean in some somewhere inside all of us is this kind of of sickness that we can get something for nothing. This is one of the root causes of the problem."
Susan: Yeah so just quickly I mean uh when I was in Brazil recently I I was I gave money to a beggar a very a beggar who was in very very bad shape and I told Dr Keppe about that and he and I and he said to me "oh you gave money to a capitalist" and I was like "wait a minute what do you mean" and he said "well that's a woman who wants to get money without work not which is not to say that he's against charity and that charity isn't good we should support people in need but um you know if you don't work you're trying to get something and you and you expect money back you know that is the same thing in a way as these speculators" you know
Richard: I just want to just give you guys something to talk about from Dr.
Keppe's book now, I want to come back to Liberation of the People, because he says in here, and he has a number of proposals that are quite dramatic. One is that Keppe contends that every human being on the face of the planet, just by virtue of being human, deserves to have free food, free clothing, and free roof over their heads. Free. Just as a result of being a human being, that everybody should get that as the basics for life.
And then if you want to expand beyond that, that comes from your work and your effort. But everybody on the face of the planet should have those basic three things provided free of charge. But he also says here that "we need to have business enterprises belonging to those who work in them, forming businesses with common ownership, that each person in the enterprise should earn according to the value of his work, not according to the capital he may invest in the business, that society should be organized which have the means to control exploitative individuals and groups, that large private properties gradually be eliminated so that everyone can have a small holding as the only way to achieve peace among people and life without anguish."
And so he's proposing some really radical, to our common way of thinking, ideas that might help to assuage some of the difficulties we see going on in the world today. How do you see that, Monique?
Well, you know, I was just looking on the back cover of Liberation of the People, and there's this, you know, there's this quote from Lincoln that Dr.
Keppe mentioned. And, you know, if we go back in time to founding fathers, Jefferson himself, Lincoln himself considered corporations to be the biggest threat to society, and we can live without them, we can live without them. You yourself, Rich, live in, uh, in a trilogical way with trilogical residences and businesses and with barter systems that are popping up all over the place.
Susan mentioned in New York they're sort of working out their own commerce, what do you have, what do you need, let's work it out. I was, uh, reading about a story in Buenos Aires about a beautiful, uh, barter system that's, that's worked out just completely free of the banks, and this allows someone to, to earn their daily bread with dignity, and this is what keeps us healthy and keeps us social.
Because all those millions that we might be fantasizing about, we're not working, it's going to make, the solution seems to come from the absolute end result of the problem. Almost everything has to be broken down in order to be rebuilt. That's what I get from Liberation of the People. Yeah,
Richard: he says in that book actually directly that not a little things on the surface needs to change.
Everything needs to change. Our whole way of seeing our society, way of seeing how we work with each other, how we do things together. Kelly, what are your thoughts about that?
Well, I think this is the issue, you know, that we have a paradigm shift that needs to take place because what's evolved over time obviously isn't working. And that's what this whole Occupy Wall Street thing is about, trying to bring this consciousness that the way we're living today is not working for the great majority of people.
And I think the question is that most people have is how do we move from here? And Dr. Keppe's work seems to give us a lot of suggestions in the right direction.
Susan: I think that what you guys are doing in Brazil has been a great laboratory that more people could follow, that could come down there and study and follow. And in fact, I've heard Cláudia on this very radio show invite people, serious people, to come participate and study it.
So my hope is that From Brazil will spring, as these books have done, the model for what can happen and that would bring us hope for the future because we really need it. I mean, it's interesting. Brazil is on the upswing. We are really on the downswing in this country, and I don't know where it's going to stop. And I certainly – I mean, this movement is very, very hopeful for me.
And I think joined with what you guys are doing, it could be unstoppable.
Richard: Yeah, I think this is really true. It's a movement of people trying to become conscious, trying to step out from under the slavery that we've been under for, well, thousands of years probably. But it needs to be linked to these sort of this consciousness of the psychopathology of the human being and the sociopathology.
And Gilbert has talked a lot about the pathology of power on our program. And I think this is, it really needs to be understood that we give a lot of value to people who are in power. And what we need to understand is that these are the people who are probably the most unbalanced of any of us, are the ones who crave and desire power over others.
So Dr. Akepi talks about how an extremely sick person is concerned about dominating others physically or psychologically, where the well-balanced individual concerns himself or herself primarily with work, with study, with research, which leaves him no time to defend himself against these unbalanced individuals in power. You know, now the people are standing up and speaking, but, you know, because we haven't had time.
We've been worried about raising our families and developing our careers, but the people who are in power have been worried about taking power over others. And that is something I think that you all could talk a little bit about. Kelly, let me start with you. This is something that's really, really important for us to understand. While we've been sleeping and working and developing our families and our lives, they have been taking power, taking control.
And consciously doing it, you know, and very organized and very planned out. And I think it's an interesting point that you point out that, you know, we the people have been not paying attention to that. And, you know, maybe paying attention more to the more, I don't know, day-to-day or superficial kind of things that are important in our lives to us and not looking more at the bigger picture.
And I think this is what's starting to change now.
Richard: Yeah, I think one of the big challenges is that we ascribe the intentions we have into other people. So we see ourselves as leading normal lives and we think the people in power have the same intentions. And they don't. So, look, I need to take a break. Let's come back and talk more about that.
It's an interesting topic in our last segment. We are on Thinking with Somebody Else's Head on Conscious Planet Radio. We're discussing Wall Street, Occupy Wall Street, especially in relationship to Dr. Keppe's seminal work in Liberation of the People, the Pathology of Power. We're back in a moment to continue our discussion. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head, our program today, a veritable potpourri of people speaking about what's happening in the United States.
I find this personally very exciting. I'm a product of the 60s, and I think it's beautiful to have a movement where we're trying to change things. However, I feel that we need to be a little smarter going in this time about human psychopathology. This is something we don't understand very well. And so let's see what you guys think initially. The psychopathological consciousness, the ideas that people need to understand in this movement so that we can really affect a genuine and lasting change to our society.
Susan? Sure, Rich. Yeah,
Susan: I, like you, would love to just sing Kumbaya and have it all wake up one morning and have it all go away. It's just not going to happen. So you know what? Our sensibilities are so delicate. We can't stand any kind of criticism, any talk about sickness at all. It is so politically incorrect. I mean, it's bad. It's really, really bad.
Just for example, I could never understand why somebody commits a serious crime, a murder, and right away, they're not seen as mentally ill. They might be mentally ill, they might not be. Well, You know, they're always mentally ill. If you do damage, if you do harm, it's a sickness first. And this, I think, is the fundamental problem. We see that, for example, a physical illness just happens.
We never link that with something that could come, a sick attitude that the person had that then manifests in the body. You know, stuff just happens. So I think that the first thing we need to really look at and look at in a sane way, we the people, is that there is a psychological problem with these people. There is a serious, serious pathology that is based in not just megalomania, which is a delusion of grandeur, but a theomania to play God, to be God and to play God.
And then the rest of us are like pawns in the game. So that's the first thing. And then the second really important piece is that each one of us has to see the admiration that we have for these people and how maybe there's some ways that we want to be like them so that we don't repeat the problem. And so that we can really become conscious of the health that we have as the people to be able to rebuild our society.
Richard: Another thing I want to mention related to this, Susan, is that this question of not seeing our own problems, this problem of what Dr. Keppe calls inconscientization, that we choose not to look at our problems. We also do that with the society. And when Dr. Keppe went there in the 80s, he immediately perceived, although America was on the upswing, it was the years of Reagan, the economy was exploding, Dr.
Keppe saw immediately that the country was going to be in real problems if they continued on this route of not working, of speculating, of exploitation, of farming all the jobs out to developing countries. This was an enormous harm that was being done.
Susan: Don't forget consumerism.
Richard: And consumerism, materialism. Yeah, these are important things. And he saw this immediately, and he was attacked for this, because the people, particularly in power, had the idea that showing these problems was doing something bad, that this was attacking the United States, when actually this was something that was really contributing to solve the problem.
So this is something that we do a lot. When we don't want to see our problem. We project the problem out into other things and other people, other situations. Monine, anything to add about that? Well,
just that if anyone was interested in learning more about Dr.
Yes,
Richard: exactly, about how Dr. Keppe's work was attacked and how he was personally attacked he and Dr Cláudia Pesheko but this is like something I think it's really we we want to we want to shoot the messenger you know and somebody who's well that
was an example of that right there that was such a powerful message the lengths to stop it were shocking. When somebody comes
Richard: with a shining the light on a problem this is something that's beneficial to us this is not something that's that's harmful and we see it as a harmful thing.
And so we project that the problems are sort of into other people. And we need to be very careful of this as we move through these Occupy Wall Street movements. There's going to be a lot of pressure put to separate, to isolate, to alienate people, to put one group against another. This is what happens all the time. Divide and conquer. The powerful know this Game V.
Very, very well. How can we help people to understand this, you guys, that we need to stay together in all of this, you know, and keep our eye on the big picture? Because, you know, what I see happening, I see that immediately, I see the media sort of shines the light and says, well, they try to, when they try to minimize it, they say it's a bunch of hippies dancing around in no clothes, that there's no leaders, that they don't really know what they want.
They're automatically trying to create the idea that nothing's happening there. So we start to think, oh, well, these guys are just a bunch of wackos who, as Susan said, want to sing Kumbaya and bring change, you know. But we have to be very, very conscious that there's going to be this attempt to divide and conquer, to separate. And we need to understand that this is an enormous effort that will go in to try to infiltrate, to separate, to divide people.
Yeah.
Susan: You know, we need only to look, I think, I was just thinking as you were talking, at the civil rights movement, that as this, at everything that those people suffered, and then the ends that they were able to achieve. So we can expect eventually, perhaps, those types of reactions from power. But then in time, and maybe it'll even be a short period of time, where things will start, where this consciousness will start to grow and hopefully change.
Richard: Yeah, because one of our big problems in North America, I think, is that we have this really projective attitude. It's like institutionalized in our system now, where the sickest people get to the top. These are also the most projective people. So they stimulate this kind of projective paranoia in us and then make a fortune in creating products that alleviate our paranoia. You know, we have this huge military-industrial complex, which is supposed to protect us from the dangers outside.
We have enormous pharmaceutical industry, which voraciously expands by giving drugs to more and more segments of the population to protect us from the evil bacteria and viruses outside. And then this projection happens onto the people, that we are dangerous. So we see this groping and dangerous, you know, the airport's dangerous, x-ray machines at airports, so, and
Susan: people go like sheep. That's what I want to say about the airport thing, just drives me insane, because I always opt out.
I don't care if somebody, I mean, it's, it's, it's just disgusting that I have to be patted down just because I refuse to go through an x-ray machine. Um, but, but it's even more horrifying to me to see hundreds of people in front of me just going through blithely, putting their hands up and letting people view their genitals on an x-ray machine.
I mean, it's insane. Yeah, well, I mean, look who's making the x-ray machines, look who's making the x-ray machines and the government contracts that go along with that. It's just, you know, fascism is, uh, a word that really, you know, prickles everyone, it's like hard to even say that word, but I mean, when you have an alignment between state and business, is that fascism?
You know, is, is that what's going on? And there's such a tight relationship between Goldman Sachs and everything that has to do with our lives. It's just crazy. You know, I mean, for instance, you know, one example of their sort of double dipping. I just learned that Goldman Sachs were the consultants to Greece. We know the trouble Greece is in now. And Greece wanted to join with a European alliance.
They needed their books to look good, and so Goldman Sachs cooked them up and made them look good on paper. So they earned their money for that service, but that's not enough. Then with the knowledge that Greece will fail, there's no way they can even make the payments on the interest. They're going to have to sort of print money out of thin air in no time at all.
With that knowledge, Goldman Sachs goes and gets involved in something called credit default swaps. It's anybody's guess what that is, but we know that they made money off of that, of course, unethically. And this is one of many examples. Wilcom, Enron, Bears and Stearns, Lehman Brothers. We know the names, don't we?
Richard: And no, actually, nobody will be able to explain to you what a derivative or a credit default swap is.
That's very clear in Michael Moore's documentary about capitalism. Nobody can explain what they are. In fact, if you can understand them, they want you to go work for them. That's the way it works. I saw a clip in a documentary I was watching on the weekend that Dr. Keppe recommended about how the powerful have been infiltrated and are planning and working to overthrow democracy in our world for some time now.
And in there, there was a clip of Andy Rooney from 60 Minutes actually advocating implanting chips under the skin in order to identify people so you can identify the good people against the bad people. As Susan said, we're like sheep here. We have to wake up. This is a very pathological power structure. We can't believe anything they try and tell us.
Susan: Yeah.
And it is progressive. So illness is progressive. So I knew it was coming with the Patriot Act. This is not, you know, when now they can know what our library books are and they can tap our phones. And the next thing you know, it's the airports and then it's chips. But, I mean, I don't want to sound like a crazy person. But people need to understand at the end of the day that illness is progressive.
And it's just going to get worse unless we work to understand it. We work to understand the roots. Then I think we'll be able to know, know the solution, because consciousness of anything, even of the most evil, terrible thing, is always good. Sure.
Richard: And remember that these guys, Mark Zuckerberg from Facebook, Bill Gates, the Google guys, they're all being invited to these, uh, Bilderberg groups, so there's the, you know, they're being invited for a reason, they're, because they're part of, they're using that technology to keep track of us, and so we as people.
We're trying to use the technology in a good way. We need to be very conscious that they're going to step in and try to divide us, separate us, project onto us that the problems are our problems, not their problems. This is what sick people do, you guys.
Susan: Or worse, arrest you when things get really
Richard: heavy. Yeah, fire mace in your face at point-blank range, put the handcuffs on so tight that people's hands are going blue.
I mean, come on. This is a very serious police state that we're fighting in, in this way, and eventually the, uh, the powerful are going to wake up that the 99 have the real power. This is our, this is our hope, this is what we need to work for,
Susan: and, and because what they're standing for is something, again, I just keep going back to the civil rights movement, you know, it was a wrong that needed to be righted, it was the right thing to do, and that's what's happening now.
This kind of, um, you know, this equilibrium of power in the United States where the sick are controlling, almost, you know, affecting people's lives, this way, is a wrong that must be righted, and it will be. Yeah, it's
Richard: on the way to being righted, we
Susan: will be free. There's a wonderful part of, uh, Liberation of the People where Dr. Keppe talks about it, you might have the quote, Rich, where I will, you know, I must be
Richard: free, and I will.
Yes, exactly, my nature is to be free, and I will be free. It's very strong, it's in his call to action. I think we're at the very beginning of the book, the, the book that brought me to Brazil, this book, by the way, Liberation of the People, the pathology of power that we're talking about, I think is essential reading for everyone remotely interested in what's happening in our society today.
So that book is available, as Monin suggested, on our website at HealingThroughConsciousness.com, along with a lot of other great stuff, which our great friend Will Lajeunesse, who we lost on the call today, has very much participated in keeping together. I want to thank all of you guys for participating in this. It's been kind of a rambly discussion, but I think it gives us a sense, anybody who's listening, a sense that there's much more to be discovered and to be understood here than just going and marching.
As important as that is, there's a lot of consciousness and knowledge of a science of psychosociopathology that we need to understand better so we can act more directly and with more effectiveness in this situation. Thank you all for joining me. It's been great to have you here today.
Thank you, Rich. They are beautiful. They're like a lifeline for those in the belly of the beast.
Richard: Wonderful. I'm very happy to play that role. Thinking with Somebody Else's Head returns again next week. And who knows? Maybe we'll continue our discussion next week.
Bye, everybody.
